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Is Tomlinson a true NT?

George from PA : 3/19/2019 5:51 pm
I asked Brett Kollmann what the Giants needs to do for the defense to stop the run. His reply below:

Brett Kollmann replied to your comment on Brett Kollmann's page.
Getting a new nose tackle for starters. They had the best one in the league and shipped him off to Detroit - they've got to replace Snacks in the draft or free agency if they want to have a shot at protecting their very, very light linebacking corps. Dexter Lawrence wouldn't be a bad option for doing that in the first round.

I felt our run defense was a major problem last year. I like Hill and Tomlinson but feel both are DE in a 3-4.

I am not sure if Tomilinson is a true NT like Snacks...maybe a full year to get ready to play NT will help, but just not sure he will ever be able to handle those double teams.

The rumer of Q. Williams also seem odd unless we are moving back to a 4-3. He.just doesn't seem to be a 3-4 fit. I might be wrong, can someone clue me in where will be his position in a 3-4.

I know our LBer have also been an issue, missing reads, picking the wrong hole, etc...but that is too long to discuss.

The run defense...must be fixed before we can resolve the pass defense.



DG said they traded Snacks  
BillT : 3/19/2019 6:03 pm : link
To move Tomlinson to the 1.
George  
Lines of Scrimmage : 3/19/2019 6:07 pm : link
I am still surprised with that one. Perhaps it was attitude, knee worries or other that they moved on from Snacks. Maybe they wanted to get younger in general and save salary at that spot.

DG definitely said and I believe Betcher confirmed that they wanted to get Tomlinson and Hill in there natural positions.

I really hope they add a massive man in this draft for the run D. Maybe they don't plan on resigning Tomlinson and they realize they have to upgrade. DG from that start has stressed the need to stop the run.
It is a bit of a fallacy that our run defense  
Diver_Down : 3/19/2019 6:15 pm : link
was great with Snacks versus without at least as it pertains to 2018. I remember watching the Saints game where Kamara proceeded to run a train on our defense as if he was in a prison laundry. I didn't go back and watch the all-22 so I assumed that Snacks was hurt or on the sidelines. Dan in the Springs corrected my assertion and showed that many of Kamara's longest runs were over Snacks.
DG, once said that he wanted players that hated to lose.  
George from PA : 3/19/2019 6:16 pm : link
And I am not sure why, but as soon as he said that....i thought of Snacks.

He always seemed very content.
Tomlinson  
Marty866b : 3/19/2019 6:25 pm : link
I think is a defensive tackle in a 4-3 and a bad fit for this defense. He has no ability to get to the quarterback out of the 3-4 and he didn't look like a good nose tackle when Snacks was traded. IMO, I haven't seen enough plays out of him to say he isn't JAG.
RE: Tomlinson  
Jim Bur(n)t : 3/19/2019 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14348382 Marty866b said:
Quote:
I think is a defensive tackle in a 4-3 and a bad fit for this defense. He has no ability to get to the quarterback out of the 3-4 and he didn't look like a good nose tackle when Snacks was traded. IMO, I haven't seen enough plays out of him to say he isn't JAG.


Agree - I would say he is a better 4-3 DT.
RE: DG, once said that he wanted players that hated to lose.  
mrvax : 3/19/2019 6:31 pm : link
In comment 14348374 George from PA said:
Quote:
And I am not sure why, but as soon as he said that....i thought of Snacks.

He always seemed very content.


George, I think Snacks was very unhappy with the team at least just before he was traded.
I believe Christian Wilkins  
mrvax : 3/19/2019 6:34 pm : link
may be available at pick #17 if they want to go that way.
Wilkins  
Marty866b : 3/19/2019 6:37 pm : link
I think Wilkins is a bit light in the pants to be a nose tackle.
RE: DG said they traded Snacks  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/19/2019 6:39 pm : link
In comment 14348347 BillT said:
Quote:
To move Tomlinson to the 1.


This.
It seems like a sort of 'both'  
idiotsavant : 3/19/2019 6:42 pm : link
Answer.

Both 'a':

we could use a giant 340lber in this D, if not always on the field but as an important piece to switch things up, defend run, give rest to rusher DT types and wear down OLs.

And 'b':

Betch apparently likes to run a one gapping variation on the 3/4, for which you need line backers who know what the F they are doing, gap wise, scheme wise (and have some power ..two of them anyway)

as well as at least one DT who can rush from interior.

Tomlinson is still a useful player in this; as the gaps get switched up it's still helpful to have a very strong one gap run defender vs zone runs or in the case a rusher DT misses a RB on way to the qb. There are only so many freaks on the planet. We bout to draft a few maybe
Eric  
Marty866b : 3/19/2019 6:43 pm : link
I know that is what Gettleman said but Tomlinson didn't play the nose in college or until Snacks was traded. I don't know what the numbers look like but I thought the middle was weak when Tomlinson was the nose. I think the team will serve themselves well if they pick a true nose in the middles rounds. God, we have so many needs that 12 picks aren't nearly enough.
My guess is that given how many great  
idiotsavant : 3/19/2019 6:51 pm : link
DTs there are there will be some quality NTs at 37, 95 or later. I do agree that even given a supposed one gapping 3/4, (or at times 2 DT...at times 3dt+2olbs etc) it's still always helpful to have a legit NT type, even in a nominal 4/3 as we used to run.
This isn't a traditional 3-4.  
robbieballs2003 : 3/19/2019 6:58 pm : link
A traditional 3-4 has DL eat up blockers. Bettcher supposedly wants penetration. Williams would fit in just fine like Watt does in Houston.
RE: Q. Williams  
Festina Lente : 3/19/2019 7:07 pm : link
I don't think you need to worry about his fit because he won't make it to us.
Bingo!  
idiotsavant : 3/19/2019 7:09 pm : link
Maybe Q aaaaand Oliver

Badass
He was better as a 3-4 DE.....  
Simms11 : 3/19/2019 8:56 pm : link
I think we need an anchor in th middle, a guy that can play the 3-4 NT or even 1 tech
RE: This isn't a traditional 3-4.  
Big_Pete : 3/19/2019 8:56 pm : link
In comment 14348425 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
A traditional 3-4 has DL eat up blockers. Bettcher supposedly wants penetration. Williams would fit in just fine like Watt does in Houston.


Exactly

Just look at who Arizona had at NT under Bettcher:

Xavier Williams
Corey Peters
Rodney Gunter

None of these are the traditional 3-4 NT

RE: DG, once said that he wanted players that hated to lose.  
Mr. Nickels : 3/19/2019 10:33 pm : link
In comment 14348374 George from PA said:
Quote:
And I am not sure why, but as soon as he said that....i thought of Snacks.

He always seemed very content.


hmmm didn't we have a wr like that?
Looks like a 3-4 DE to me  
TD : 3/20/2019 7:19 am : link
But DG says he’s a NT. We’ll see I guess.
I dont like Bettcher  
giantstock : 3/20/2019 8:06 am : link
I admit I'm a bit bias. I prefer 4-3 but if I'm after a NT - I'd stick with Tomlinson for the time being and select a later round NT in 4th or 5th -- Daylon Mack from TAM.

GEMN aren't winning this year -- see what Tomlinson can do and groom Mack in case Tomlinson isn't that hot or if Makc excels. If Mack excels you could have Tomlinson in on passing and alos you could have Tomlinson share time with Hill and Mack while you get Oliver with the 6th pick if GMEN don't take a QB.
Does anybody read Sy's game reviews?  
Racer : 3/20/2019 9:37 am : link
He knows this team better than the beat writers, knows more about the on-field product by a factor of 1,000 and he comes to the table with zero agenda. Use the tools available, folks.


Post Dallas game:

"-Solid game for Dalvin Tomlinson. He settled into the 1-technique position really well after the Damon Harrison trade. Although the run defense as a whole did take a hit with him in there in contrast to Snacks, I do think it is his best role. The twitch and range he shows makes this defense a little more versatile which, in the long run, fits in better with what they want the scheme to be."
He was a good enough NT for Alabama, but not good enough for Giants  
Bob in Newburgh : 3/20/2019 9:53 am : link
Gee if I was a betting man, which evaluation would I trust based on track records for 7-8 years.

Tomlinson was up and down at NT  
Jay on the Island : 3/20/2019 10:25 am : link
but he seemed to settle into the role as the season progressed. I think he will be a solid NT going forward but I would like to see the Giants add another NT for depth.

If a guy like Khalen Saunders is still on the board in the 3rd round the Giants should strongly consider him. Saunders could also play DE in the Giants scheme so he would be a valuable reserve with the chance to develop into a starter.

Some mid round NT options for the Giants are LSU's Ed Alexander, Washington's Greg Gaines, and Arizona's P.J. Johnson.
RE: He was a good enough NT for Alabama, but not good enough for Giants  
Harvest Blend : 3/20/2019 10:27 am : link
In comment 14349031 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
Gee if I was a betting man, which evaluation would I trust based on track records for 7-8 years.


Isn't he playing NT for the Giants?
PFF graded him highly as a NT in the back half of the year  
Eric on Li : 3/20/2019 10:31 am : link
I think he's a solid player at whichever spot he plays, though there's more value in being a competent NT than a competent end.
I don't think Bettcher prizes 350-pound man-mountains at NT.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/20/2019 11:31 am : link
He didn't go that way in Arizona, and he was at least in on the decision to part ways with Harrison. So Tomlinson may be what he wants in the middle, and there isn't much evidence to suggest that he would push for spending a top pick on somebody like Dexter Lawrence.
BTW, I'm not sure about the OP's premise that our LB corps is light.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/20/2019 11:37 am : link
The ILBs are about average, and the OLBs are average (Carter) to big (Golden/Martin). The second line of defense is only small if you count Peppers as a LB - which he isn't - or assume the Giants add somebody like Devin Bush.
He isn't  
Joey in VA : 3/20/2019 11:39 am : link
In a traditional 3-4, but this isn't that. He'll be shaded most of the time, not at the 0 which is the TRUE NT alignment, head up on the OC. This is a gap firing defense, not a gap control defense which the 3-4 traditionally is. This is more of a 2-5 reverse Oklahoma where it's hard to identify the front 7's intentions. It's a fire zone 3-4 basically, so the Jim Johnson basics but in a smaller up front alignment with 2-3 DL.
RE: He isn't  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/20/2019 11:51 am : link
Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In a traditional 3-4, but this isn't that. He'll be shaded most of the time, not at the 0 which is the TRUE NT alignment, head up on the OC. This is a gap firing defense, not a gap control defense which the 3-4 traditionally is. This is more of a 2-5 reverse Oklahoma where it's hard to identify the front 7's intentions. It's a fire zone 3-4 basically, so the Jim Johnson basics but in a smaller up front alignment with 2-3 DL.
Great post, Joey. I would add that Bettcher's heaviest starter in Arizona was Corey Peters at 305 lbs. He didn't have anyone on the roster heavier than Xavier Williams at 309. The Cardinal defense wasn't small overall, but there weren't any man-mountains either.
RE: He isn't  
Thegratefulhead : 3/20/2019 11:58 am : link
In comment 14349302 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In a traditional 3-4, but this isn't that. He'll be shaded most of the time, not at the 0 which is the TRUE NT alignment, head up on the OC. This is a gap firing defense, not a gap control defense which the 3-4 traditionally is. This is more of a 2-5 reverse Oklahoma where it's hard to identify the front 7's intentions. It's a fire zone 3-4 basically, so the Jim Johnson basics but in a smaller up front alignment with 2-3 DL.
Fuck, what I would give to pick your brains for a few hours in bar... Thank you for all your contributions here. One of my favorite posters.
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