In reference to Haskins. It makes me question whether youve actually put any work into evaluating the player or if you have your judgment in evaluating a player. Same thing happened with barkley last year people were screaming he was the next kijana carter or that he couldnt break tackles.
Im not saying you have to like haskins, but he has too many positive attributes to warrant “remote thrower” comments. Now if we’re talking daniel jones at 6 then i would understand, but Haskins is no Daniel Jones.
So if people think Haskins suck, they don't know what they are looking at, but if people think Jones sucks, they are probably right?
I think you just did exactly what you were telling other people not to do.
I just don't see how you could be sold on 1 year of Haskins Â
I want the Giants organization to do their homework. I still standby my belief the Giants must come out of this draft with a QB to transition to from Eli. The "KC Model" only works if there is a guy there to actually learn from Eli. If it's from the draft or a trade for Rosen, they have to do something.
Haskins rightfully should be considered and option and the Giants meeting with him is important in their evaluation. I'm happy to read this.
Now, I'm still in the camp that the Giants will sit at #6 and will pick a defensive player. I don't think Murray will get past Arizona and they will trade Rosen.
So for me the thought is:
- trade for Rosen with a target of a 3rd+
- Sit at 17 and see if Haskins/Lock/Jones falls to an area to trade up to get him in the early teens (and I reiterate that I do not want Jones at all).
I think those are the choices.
If the Giants pick Haskins/Lock at 6, I'll be somewhat annoyed, but can understand it if the Giants are sold that he will be the QB in 2020.
The remote thrower is if the Giants use their draft picks to trade up from 6 to get one of those guys. To me, that's a dumb move when Rosen is sitting there for much less. That would be a poor use of the Giants draft picks with so many holes to fill.
I am not in favor of drafting Haskins, however, the Giants must do their due diligence.
There can be no doubt about Haskins, this pick can change the course of the franchise.
The Giants must come away confident that Haskins can be a franchise QB.
your due diligence. As for what the coach or GM says about this player or that, they generally say good things regardless of what they are thinking this time of year. We will know the truth on draft-day.
I obviously like Rosen and would love for NYG to swing a deal for him - but I learned very little about him after his rookie year. He's basically still the same guy I thought he was coming out. Throws a great ball, excellent mechanics, has the tools - does lack mobility, the injury concern is still there and obviously not a flawless character, but nothing I'm not terribly worried about.
RE: RE: So you’d rather have Daniel freakin Jones? Â
I’d literally throw up in my mouth if we chose this bum in the first round. Would set us back a decade.
How would it set us back a decade? What an overreaction.
Because I think Jones is Tannehill with a weaker arm. He sits behind Eli a year then starts the following year. They are stubborn and keep rolling him out there even though hes not close to elite (See Eli manning). By this time, its 2023, barkley is out of his Rookie deal and is going on 27, and we are starting over at QB again. Drafting a bust 1st rounder will set you back quite a while. Maybe its not a decade but it would take almost that long to be a superbowl contender again.
Forget Allen, who I don't think should've even been taken where he was Â
But simply by looking at what they did in college, Rosen and Darnold and even Jackson at least had a large number of starts and consistent high-level productivity to be able to look at and evaluate.
Taking a guy top ten based off just one full year of starts even as impressive as it was, has to be tough to make a convincing analysis.
They could spin Haskins’ limited experience as an opportunity to pursue that plan. Honestly I would be fine with that although fans will want Haskins starting by midseason I’m sure.
The Alex Smith/Pat Mahomes mentorship year went well because Smith was still a good player and the Chiefs were successful. I don’t think the Giants are any threat to win the division in 2019.
RE: Why are we still holding on so hard to that Shurmur quote? Â
Its the same coach that couldn't stop praising Davis Webb.
Just because he claims to like the added benefit of a QB that can run doesn't mean it's the deciding factor in a QB evaluation.
TTH. Agree. Anything that has been done or not done, gives us no indication if we are taking the player of not, if available. We cannot read too much into anything. We will not find out until that pick is made.
that says the Giants must go QB this year. But they really don't. If DG/PS don't feel there is a prospect in this year's draft (or Rosen) that they believe is the right guy to lead the franchise, they can wait until 2020. Based on the number of Oregon games that DG attended, I think they really wanted Herbert until he decided to stay in school. If nothing else, it gives you an idea of the type of QB they are looking for.
Jackson still can't make all of the throws required of an NFL QB.
I don't have that same concern with Haskins.
I get it now that we've seen Jackson at the pro level, but he won a Heisman and two player of the year awards, and led or finished on top of his conference in passing statistics in his final two seasons. It's not like he was some fringe player at the time.
Don’t believe the smokescreens. No team has done more work on Ohio State quarterback Dwayne Haskins than the NY Giants. Link - ( New Window )
I know Dave-Te runs hot and cold on here. I happen to enjoy his work and podcast and he provides good information and he's been pretty spot on so far this year with a few player and coaching moves.
His belief is that most teams prefer to bring in a QB with similar attributes to their current QB because you won't have to retrofit an entire offense to suit them and helps with continuity. Basically, you get your QB's skillset, only younger. Last year when the Browns signed Tyrod Taylor, he said that signaled they were going for Baker Mayfield because they can run a similar offense because their skillsets are generally the same (though Mayfield was superior).
Haskins' skillset is similar to Eli. A big, pocket passer with a strong arm, who can move a little bit but isn't going to be scrambling for anything. Basically Phil Simms, Kerry Collins, and Eli. All similar (though Simms ran a little more when he was younger). This is what you think of when you think of a Giants' QB. What made Hostetler so dangerous when he took over in 1990 was that he could run and that threw off teams preparation. Dave Brown believe it or not, was actually a decent scrambler. He had no weapons to work with and...well...he stunk otherwise.
It's rare you get a situation like in Baltimore where you go from a statue in Joe Flacco to Lamar Jackson. Bringing a Murray to the Giants would be similar.
Haskins is probably the "safest" pick for the Giants and they sit him behind Eli. I just don't want him at 6 and certainly not at a trade up before.
These guys have so much more of a bead on this than any of us. Sure, they could get it wrong. But given last year's draft and what it looks like they're trying to do with this roster, if Haskins is the pick at 6, I'm on board.
what the Giants are going to do - DG is better at this than JR ever was.
Of course - he did telegraph what they were doing at #2 last year - but it doesn't really matter when you pick #1 and the only team ahead of you is taking a QB.
Jackson still can't make all of the throws required of an NFL QB.
I don't have that same concern with Haskins.
I get it now that we've seen Jackson at the pro level, but he won a Heisman and two player of the year awards, and led or finished on top of his conference in passing statistics in his final two seasons. It's not like he was some fringe player at the time.
I don't think this is new information, though - it was a concern going into the draft.
Petrino did a nice job maximizing what Jackson does best @ Louisville, but the outside hash throws have just never been something he excels at. The vast majority of the longer balls he hit on were in the middle of the field. He can hit on slants and posts, but having him throw outs or timing routes etc is still a no with him - he doesn't do those things well and Baltimore didn't want to ask him to even really attempt those throws at all.
So, with Jackson, they're going to have to work with a very limited playbook and utilize his legs until that stops working.
Obviously Jackson's ability as a runner trumps Haskins' by a very wide margin. But Haskins has an NFL arm - Jackson still has a lot of work to do there.
it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
I hate his throwing motion, but Haskins is very accurate intermediate Â
he converted a lot of 3rd + 10's and can really put the ball in a position for his receivers to run after the catch. I could very well see him or Jones being the pick at either 6 or 17 or via some kind of trade.
I think his "explosive" arm strength is overrated, it looks fairly typical in what I've seen but there are certainly some throws that stand out. He also carries the risk of being a 1 year wonder and the fact that his stats were inflated by a system that generated a lot of big plays off screen passes. IMO Jones has a better motion, throws a better deep ball, and has more mobility while Haskins throws with more precision and certainly put up big numbers.
I watched his highlights of the loss against Purdue this year and came away more impressed from that than his big statistical game against michigan. His teammates dropped a lot of balls and he really hung in there and did everything he could to keep them in the Purdue game. Haskins vs. Purdue - ( New Window )
Darnold did a lot of good things, he also struggled badly in several games and missed a little time in year one due to injury.
I think he'll likely be the 2nd best QB in that class when all is said and done - but let's pump the brakes a bit. We can't just skip through the rest of his development and assume we know where it goes based on the limited exposure he's had to the league thus far.
Jackson still can't make all of the throws required of an NFL QB.
I don't have that same concern with Haskins.
I get it now that we've seen Jackson at the pro level, but he won a Heisman and two player of the year awards, and led or finished on top of his conference in passing statistics in his final two seasons. It's not like he was some fringe player at the time.
I don't think this is new information, though - it was a concern going into the draft.
Petrino did a nice job maximizing what Jackson does best @ Louisville, but the outside hash throws have just never been something he excels at. The vast majority of the longer balls he hit on were in the middle of the field. He can hit on slants and posts, but having him throw outs or timing routes etc is still a no with him - he doesn't do those things well and Baltimore didn't want to ask him to even really attempt those throws at all.
So, with Jackson, they're going to have to work with a very limited playbook and utilize his legs until that stops working.
Obviously Jackson's ability as a runner trumps Haskins' by a very wide margin. But Haskins has an NFL arm - Jackson still has a lot of work to do there.
My overall point isn't so much a question of Jackson's ability, just that he played a lot games, it gives you a good base to decide what he can or can't do.
To have to judge whether Haskins is a franchise QB on 14 starts is a tough ask.
And this is not me being negative for the hell of it, but it IS relevant to the conversation that Gettleman has never been in the position of #1 decisionmaker on a franchise QB before.
it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
They have 12 picks this year and Eli has not (yet) been extended. That they have spent time in the media tour with Gettleman to vigorously defend Eli and also toss out "KC Model" and that they will get a QB if things work out ideally, I think the Giants have set the table to draft a QB.
That Haskins only has 1 year playing college football. he turns 22 in May really makes it easy for the Giants to invest a high pick in him and tell the fan base he's gotta sit and learn from Eli. That he comes from a winning program that everyone has seen and just for fun, he's a Giants fan! (remember how that was mentioned about Golden Tate), all the boxes are checked for the Giants to sell to the fans an orderly transition from Eli to Haskins, without it seeming like he's got blood on his hands. And if we've seen anything since the 2017 benching, yes, this matters to Mara and the Giants organization. They will treat this whole thing with kid gloves to do it better than the way McAdoo handled it. Shurmur is no dummy, he will want to keep his job.
I think I just convinced myself they are getting Haskins...;)
RE: RE: I think its hilarious when people say “remote thrower” or “emphatic no Â
So if people think Haskins suck, they don't know what they are looking at, but if people think Jones sucks, they are probably right?
I think you just did exactly what you were telling other people not to do.
Reading comprehension is key. I clearly said haskins has too many positive attributes in comparison to daniel jones to warrant those types of comments. Like Haskins or not, im positive the majority of people will agree on that .
TTH - fair points, sample is smaller on Haskins - but I think one of the keys and things you'd want to see was steady improvement. And, he did display that as the year went on.
My biggest thing with him is he's got to get better at re-setting himself when he's forced out of the pocket and someone comes open and breaks off their route. He has a goofy way of throwing when he's on the move in certain directions and the ball can come ot funky.
His deep ball footwork could use some work, too.
He can sling it though. Not worried about his arm strength and he throws a really nice mid-range ball which is where most passes are going in the NFL right now. I think Shurmur would do pretty well with him, personally. But I understand the concerns people have and he's obviously not a lock to be a franchise QB.
that to some degree, being disappointed by Lauletta's attitude is causing them to focus a little more on character. Granted Lauletta was a 4th round pick and there is no way they did nearly as much homework, but it is still a black eye to take a developmental QB and essentially give up on him after one year. I am sure they took something away from that experience.
it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
They have 12 picks this year and Eli has not (yet) been extended. That they have spent time in the media tour with Gettleman to vigorously defend Eli and also toss out "KC Model" and that they will get a QB if things work out ideally, I think the Giants have set the table to draft a QB.
That Haskins only has 1 year playing college football. he turns 22 in May really makes it easy for the Giants to invest a high pick in him and tell the fan base he's gotta sit and learn from Eli. That he comes from a winning program that everyone has seen and just for fun, he's a Giants fan! (remember how that was mentioned about Golden Tate), all the boxes are checked for the Giants to sell to the fans an orderly transition from Eli to Haskins, without it seeming like he's got blood on his hands. And if we've seen anything since the 2017 benching, yes, this matters to Mara and the Giants organization. They will treat this whole thing with kid gloves to do it better than the way McAdoo handled it. Shurmur is no dummy, he will want to keep his job.
I think I just convinced myself they are getting Haskins...;)
If you want to get excited about Haskins look at the last three games he played and circumstances surrounding those games. Rivalry game against Michigan he played great. Conference championship game, he was lights out. Bowl game he played extremely well. They won all three games he threw 14 TDS and one interception 1200 yards readings of 180,220 , 230 + QBRs of 86,95 and 96. Has limited starting experience but in his last three games the kid played lights out
There's way more of a compelling argument for Haskins Â
I don't think you want to fall into the trap of putting too much weight on how good or bad the team around him was. We did the same thing with Josh Allen last year.
Eli Manning played for college teams with little to no talent around him too, but the difference he made on the field was a lot more tangible than Duke with Daniel Jones.
Don’t believe the smokescreens. No team has done more work on Ohio State quarterback Dwayne Haskins than the NY Giants. Link - ( New Window )
I know Dave-Te runs hot and cold on here. I happen to enjoy his work and podcast and he provides good information and he's been pretty spot on so far this year with a few player and coaching moves.
His belief is that most teams prefer to bring in a QB with similar attributes to their current QB because you won't have to retrofit an entire offense to suit them and helps with continuity. Basically, you get your QB's skillset, only younger. Last year when the Browns signed Tyrod Taylor, he said that signaled they were going for Baker Mayfield because they can run a similar offense because their skillsets are generally the same (though Mayfield was superior).
Haskins' skillset is similar to Eli. A big, pocket passer with a strong arm, who can move a little bit but isn't going to be scrambling for anything. Basically Phil Simms, Kerry Collins, and Eli. All similar (though Simms ran a little more when he was younger). This is what you think of when you think of a Giants' QB. What made Hostetler so dangerous when he took over in 1990 was that he could run and that threw off teams preparation. Dave Brown believe it or not, was actually a decent scrambler. He had no weapons to work with and...well...he stunk otherwise.
It's rare you get a situation like in Baltimore where you go from a statue in Joe Flacco to Lamar Jackson. Bringing a Murray to the Giants would be similar.
Haskins is probably the "safest" pick for the Giants and they sit him behind Eli. I just don't want him at 6 and certainly not at a trade up before.
Logical enough, a rational plan by the Browns,, but we're all discombobulated with half baked ideas of Mara/Tisch with Eli in two WCO regimes, possibly lookin at Haskins who also would not fit the scheme and personnel.
If you really love Haskins, you don't play games and take a chance on him falling to 17 - you take him @ 6.
I realize there are defensive players that are going to be on the board there who will be really appealing, but if you're really sold on the QB, you have to take him @ 6. Don't get cute - that's how you get burned and lose your guy.
I'm not saying Haskins is or isn't the ideal choice @ 6. But if the Giants see him as a franchise QB - 6 is not too high to take him.
it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
Seems pretty clear to Joe Beningo and throngs of worshipful Bbi Jets fans.
Let's Play Is it Andy Dalton or Darnold rookie year qbr?
77.6 or 80.4
it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
They have 12 picks this year and Eli has not (yet) been extended. That they have spent time in the media tour with Gettleman to vigorously defend Eli and also toss out "KC Model" and that they will get a QB if things work out ideally, I think the Giants have set the table to draft a QB.
That Haskins only has 1 year playing college football. he turns 22 in May really makes it easy for the Giants to invest a high pick in him and tell the fan base he's gotta sit and learn from Eli. That he comes from a winning program that everyone has seen and just for fun, he's a Giants fan! (remember how that was mentioned about Golden Tate), all the boxes are checked for the Giants to sell to the fans an orderly transition from Eli to Haskins, without it seeming like he's got blood on his hands. And if we've seen anything since the 2017 benching, yes, this matters to Mara and the Giants organization. They will treat this whole thing with kid gloves to do it better than the way McAdoo handled it. Shurmur is no dummy, he will want to keep his job.
I think I just convinced myself they are getting Haskins...;)
I agree Haskins seems like the obvious pick. The issue most of us are having with Haskins is all the defensive talent available with that pick.
To me, Haskins, Lock or a trade for Rosen are all good options. In fact, I would prefer trading for Rosen and going Defense with #6 and OL with #17.
This. I don't particularly like Haskins but I'm not a scout or GM. If they think he can be the guy then go for it. Everyone keeps saying they want us to pick a QB, well this could be it.
Or they are just doing their do diligence to makes sure they aren't missing out. And again, that's a good thing.
it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
Where is this coming from? Darnold looked pretty bad for most of last season. People have gotten all over Josh Rosen for how he played last year, Darnold wasn't much better. Honestly from what I saw of him, I thought Josh Allen looked like he has more upside than Darnold does.
At this point the only QB from last year that I think you can confidently say is going to be "really, really good" is Baker Mayfield.
RE: There's way more of a compelling argument for Haskins Â
I don't think you want to fall into the trap of putting too much weight on how good or bad the team around him was. We did the same thing with Josh Allen last year.
Eli Manning played for college teams with little to no talent around him too, but the difference he made on the field was a lot more tangible than Duke with Daniel Jones.
Not to open a can of worms, but I do agree there are similarities between the level of talent Eli and Jones played with. Eli led Ole Miss to their first winning seasons + bowl games in a very long time. Jones won 2 consecutive bowl games at duke when they had only won 1 in the previous 50+ years. I know comparing anything QB related to Eli right now is a hot button issue, but I do think this is among their similarities.
The difference between Jones and Josh Allen last year is that Allen didn't play Clemson or Miami on the road. Those 2 performances against defenses comprised entirely of NFL talent go a long way in my mind.
I was reading a tweet briefly that said something like the Giants never even met with Barkley outside of the combine and I thought I read they didn't attend his pro day.
like i said it was brief, so I might be slightly off, but I think that was the gist of it.
Darnold did a lot of good things, he also struggled badly in several games and missed a little time in year one due to injury.
I think he'll likely be the 2nd best QB in that class when all is said and done - but let's pump the brakes a bit. We can't just skip through the rest of his development and assume we know where it goes based on the limited exposure he's had to the league thus far.
Plus he’ll certainly be helped A LOT by having Bell as his RB, assuming he hasn’t lost much
it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
Seems pretty clear to Joe Beningo and throngs of worshipful Bbi Jets fans.
Let's Play Is it Andy Dalton or Darnold rookie year qbr?
77.6 or 80.4
Right now all I see is average JAG QB out of Darnold, which would be a huge waste to pick at #3. I see superstar out of Barkley.
Is that he’s so young and already showed he can play decent football at the NFL level. He’s younger than most or all of the guys in this draft class and he’s only nine months older than Tua who’s not even draft eligible until next year. I don’t think he’s a sure thing like Baker but I would bet Darnold is a top 10 QB for the next decade.
Darnold did a lot of good things, he also struggled badly in several games and missed a little time in year one due to injury.
I think he'll likely be the 2nd best QB in that class when all is said and done - but let's pump the brakes a bit. We can't just skip through the rest of his development and assume we know where it goes based on the limited exposure he's had to the league thus far.
Plus he’ll certainly be helped A LOT by having Bell as his RB, assuming he hasn’t lost much
I'm very interested in seeing what Le'Veon looks like after a year off. He looked like he was in kind of crappy shape when I saw photos of him during last year, etc.
I'm sure he's still got gas in the tank. But PIT knew he wasn't going to be there long-term and they had him shoulder some very heavy loads when he was playing. Good bit of wear on those treads.
RE: I hate his throwing motion, but Haskins is very accurate intermediate Â
he converted a lot of 3rd + 10's and can really put the ball in a position for his receivers to run after the catch. I could very well see him or Jones being the pick at either 6 or 17 or via some kind of trade.
I think his "explosive" arm strength is overrated, it looks fairly typical in what I've seen but there are certainly some throws that stand out. He also carries the risk of being a 1 year wonder and the fact that his stats were inflated by a system that generated a lot of big plays off screen passes. IMO Jones has a better motion, throws a better deep ball, and has more mobility while Haskins throws with more precision and certainly put up big numbers.
I watched his highlights of the loss against Purdue this year and came away more impressed from that than his big statistical game against michigan. His teammates dropped a lot of balls and he really hung in there and did everything he could to keep them in the Purdue game. Haskins vs. Purdue - ( New Window )
Would that be the same Purdue team that got blown out 63-14 by Auburn whose qb hit 15 of 21 passes for 373 yards and 5 td's?
Not sure I would be using Purdue game highlights.
Btw, Haskins' backup hit 23 of 28 passes for 269 yards during the season. Small sample size but was Haskins Ohio State or was Haskins the beneficiary of overwhelming personnel (like 2 1,000 yard running backs) superiority on the part of the Ohio State?
Ohio State had one of the worst red zone offenses in the nation Â
Im not saying you have to like haskins, but he has too many positive attributes to warrant “remote thrower” comments. Now if we’re talking daniel jones at 6 then i would understand, but Haskins is no Daniel Jones.
So if people think Haskins suck, they don't know what they are looking at, but if people think Jones sucks, they are probably right?
I think you just did exactly what you were telling other people not to do.
Perhaps they see something different with Haskins, also Barkley was probably a factor as well. Not maNY players like him come available.
Mayfield, and to a lesser degree Darnold, are the only two guys I'm even remotely sold on from last year as it stands right now.
Haskins rightfully should be considered and option and the Giants meeting with him is important in their evaluation. I'm happy to read this.
Now, I'm still in the camp that the Giants will sit at #6 and will pick a defensive player. I don't think Murray will get past Arizona and they will trade Rosen.
So for me the thought is:
- trade for Rosen with a target of a 3rd+
- Sit at 17 and see if Haskins/Lock/Jones falls to an area to trade up to get him in the early teens (and I reiterate that I do not want Jones at all).
I think those are the choices.
If the Giants pick Haskins/Lock at 6, I'll be somewhat annoyed, but can understand it if the Giants are sold that he will be the QB in 2020.
The remote thrower is if the Giants use their draft picks to trade up from 6 to get one of those guys. To me, that's a dumb move when Rosen is sitting there for much less. That would be a poor use of the Giants draft picks with so many holes to fill.
There can be no doubt about Haskins, this pick can change the course of the franchise.
The Giants must come away confident that Haskins can be a franchise QB.
Quote:
I’d literally throw up in my mouth if we chose this bum in the first round. Would set us back a decade.
How would it set us back a decade? What an overreaction.
Because I think Jones is Tannehill with a weaker arm. He sits behind Eli a year then starts the following year. They are stubborn and keep rolling him out there even though hes not close to elite (See Eli manning). By this time, its 2023, barkley is out of his Rookie deal and is going on 27, and we are starting over at QB again. Drafting a bust 1st rounder will set you back quite a while. Maybe its not a decade but it would take almost that long to be a superbowl contender again.
Taking a guy top ten based off just one full year of starts even as impressive as it was, has to be tough to make a convincing analysis.
Quote:
I’m in
So what do you think he saw in Lauletta?
Seems like a ridiculous take, James.
The Alex Smith/Pat Mahomes mentorship year went well because Smith was still a good player and the Chiefs were successful. I don’t think the Giants are any threat to win the division in 2019.
Just because he claims to like the added benefit of a QB that can run doesn't mean it's the deciding factor in a QB evaluation.
TTH. Agree. Anything that has been done or not done, gives us no indication if we are taking the player of not, if available. We cannot read too much into anything. We will not find out until that pick is made.
Link - ( New Window )
I don't have that same concern with Haskins.
I don't have that same concern with Haskins.
Agree. Jackson is a worse RG3 and living in Baltimore, has this fan base terrified.
I don't have that same concern with Haskins.
I get it now that we've seen Jackson at the pro level, but he won a Heisman and two player of the year awards, and led or finished on top of his conference in passing statistics in his final two seasons. It's not like he was some fringe player at the time.
I know Dave-Te runs hot and cold on here. I happen to enjoy his work and podcast and he provides good information and he's been pretty spot on so far this year with a few player and coaching moves.
His belief is that most teams prefer to bring in a QB with similar attributes to their current QB because you won't have to retrofit an entire offense to suit them and helps with continuity. Basically, you get your QB's skillset, only younger. Last year when the Browns signed Tyrod Taylor, he said that signaled they were going for Baker Mayfield because they can run a similar offense because their skillsets are generally the same (though Mayfield was superior).
Haskins' skillset is similar to Eli. A big, pocket passer with a strong arm, who can move a little bit but isn't going to be scrambling for anything. Basically Phil Simms, Kerry Collins, and Eli. All similar (though Simms ran a little more when he was younger). This is what you think of when you think of a Giants' QB. What made Hostetler so dangerous when he took over in 1990 was that he could run and that threw off teams preparation. Dave Brown believe it or not, was actually a decent scrambler. He had no weapons to work with and...well...he stunk otherwise.
It's rare you get a situation like in Baltimore where you go from a statue in Joe Flacco to Lamar Jackson. Bringing a Murray to the Giants would be similar.
Haskins is probably the "safest" pick for the Giants and they sit him behind Eli. I just don't want him at 6 and certainly not at a trade up before.
Due diligence.
For me, this.
These guys have so much more of a bead on this than any of us. Sure, they could get it wrong. But given last year's draft and what it looks like they're trying to do with this roster, if Haskins is the pick at 6, I'm on board.
Of course - he did telegraph what they were doing at #2 last year - but it doesn't really matter when you pick #1 and the only team ahead of you is taking a QB.
Quote:
Jackson still can't make all of the throws required of an NFL QB.
I don't have that same concern with Haskins.
I get it now that we've seen Jackson at the pro level, but he won a Heisman and two player of the year awards, and led or finished on top of his conference in passing statistics in his final two seasons. It's not like he was some fringe player at the time.
I don't think this is new information, though - it was a concern going into the draft.
Petrino did a nice job maximizing what Jackson does best @ Louisville, but the outside hash throws have just never been something he excels at. The vast majority of the longer balls he hit on were in the middle of the field. He can hit on slants and posts, but having him throw outs or timing routes etc is still a no with him - he doesn't do those things well and Baltimore didn't want to ask him to even really attempt those throws at all.
So, with Jackson, they're going to have to work with a very limited playbook and utilize his legs until that stops working.
Obviously Jackson's ability as a runner trumps Haskins' by a very wide margin. But Haskins has an NFL arm - Jackson still has a lot of work to do there.
I think his "explosive" arm strength is overrated, it looks fairly typical in what I've seen but there are certainly some throws that stand out. He also carries the risk of being a 1 year wonder and the fact that his stats were inflated by a system that generated a lot of big plays off screen passes. IMO Jones has a better motion, throws a better deep ball, and has more mobility while Haskins throws with more precision and certainly put up big numbers.
I watched his highlights of the loss against Purdue this year and came away more impressed from that than his big statistical game against michigan. His teammates dropped a lot of balls and he really hung in there and did everything he could to keep them in the Purdue game.
Haskins vs. Purdue - ( New Window )
I think he'll likely be the 2nd best QB in that class when all is said and done - but let's pump the brakes a bit. We can't just skip through the rest of his development and assume we know where it goes based on the limited exposure he's had to the league thus far.
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In comment 14348959 arcarsenal said:
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Jackson still can't make all of the throws required of an NFL QB.
I don't have that same concern with Haskins.
I get it now that we've seen Jackson at the pro level, but he won a Heisman and two player of the year awards, and led or finished on top of his conference in passing statistics in his final two seasons. It's not like he was some fringe player at the time.
I don't think this is new information, though - it was a concern going into the draft.
Petrino did a nice job maximizing what Jackson does best @ Louisville, but the outside hash throws have just never been something he excels at. The vast majority of the longer balls he hit on were in the middle of the field. He can hit on slants and posts, but having him throw outs or timing routes etc is still a no with him - he doesn't do those things well and Baltimore didn't want to ask him to even really attempt those throws at all.
So, with Jackson, they're going to have to work with a very limited playbook and utilize his legs until that stops working.
Obviously Jackson's ability as a runner trumps Haskins' by a very wide margin. But Haskins has an NFL arm - Jackson still has a lot of work to do there.
My overall point isn't so much a question of Jackson's ability, just that he played a lot games, it gives you a good base to decide what he can or can't do.
To have to judge whether Haskins is a franchise QB on 14 starts is a tough ask.
And this is not me being negative for the hell of it, but it IS relevant to the conversation that Gettleman has never been in the position of #1 decisionmaker on a franchise QB before.
I'm not sure that Shurmur has either.
They have 12 picks this year and Eli has not (yet) been extended. That they have spent time in the media tour with Gettleman to vigorously defend Eli and also toss out "KC Model" and that they will get a QB if things work out ideally, I think the Giants have set the table to draft a QB.
That Haskins only has 1 year playing college football. he turns 22 in May really makes it easy for the Giants to invest a high pick in him and tell the fan base he's gotta sit and learn from Eli. That he comes from a winning program that everyone has seen and just for fun, he's a Giants fan! (remember how that was mentioned about Golden Tate), all the boxes are checked for the Giants to sell to the fans an orderly transition from Eli to Haskins, without it seeming like he's got blood on his hands. And if we've seen anything since the 2017 benching, yes, this matters to Mara and the Giants organization. They will treat this whole thing with kid gloves to do it better than the way McAdoo handled it. Shurmur is no dummy, he will want to keep his job.
I think I just convinced myself they are getting Haskins...;)
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So if people think Haskins suck, they don't know what they are looking at, but if people think Jones sucks, they are probably right?
I think you just did exactly what you were telling other people not to do.
Reading comprehension is key. I clearly said haskins has too many positive attributes in comparison to daniel jones to warrant those types of comments. Like Haskins or not, im positive the majority of people will agree on that .
My biggest thing with him is he's got to get better at re-setting himself when he's forced out of the pocket and someone comes open and breaks off their route. He has a goofy way of throwing when he's on the move in certain directions and the ball can come ot funky.
His deep ball footwork could use some work, too.
He can sling it though. Not worried about his arm strength and he throws a really nice mid-range ball which is where most passes are going in the NFL right now. I think Shurmur would do pretty well with him, personally. But I understand the concerns people have and he's obviously not a lock to be a franchise QB.
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it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
They have 12 picks this year and Eli has not (yet) been extended. That they have spent time in the media tour with Gettleman to vigorously defend Eli and also toss out "KC Model" and that they will get a QB if things work out ideally, I think the Giants have set the table to draft a QB.
That Haskins only has 1 year playing college football. he turns 22 in May really makes it easy for the Giants to invest a high pick in him and tell the fan base he's gotta sit and learn from Eli. That he comes from a winning program that everyone has seen and just for fun, he's a Giants fan! (remember how that was mentioned about Golden Tate), all the boxes are checked for the Giants to sell to the fans an orderly transition from Eli to Haskins, without it seeming like he's got blood on his hands. And if we've seen anything since the 2017 benching, yes, this matters to Mara and the Giants organization. They will treat this whole thing with kid gloves to do it better than the way McAdoo handled it. Shurmur is no dummy, he will want to keep his job.
I think I just convinced myself they are getting Haskins...;)
I think that you just convinced me too.
And ruined my entire day.
I don't think you want to fall into the trap of putting too much weight on how good or bad the team around him was. We did the same thing with Josh Allen last year.
Eli Manning played for college teams with little to no talent around him too, but the difference he made on the field was a lot more tangible than Duke with Daniel Jones.
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Don’t believe the smokescreens. No team has done more work on Ohio State quarterback Dwayne Haskins than the NY Giants. Link - ( New Window )
I know Dave-Te runs hot and cold on here. I happen to enjoy his work and podcast and he provides good information and he's been pretty spot on so far this year with a few player and coaching moves.
His belief is that most teams prefer to bring in a QB with similar attributes to their current QB because you won't have to retrofit an entire offense to suit them and helps with continuity. Basically, you get your QB's skillset, only younger. Last year when the Browns signed Tyrod Taylor, he said that signaled they were going for Baker Mayfield because they can run a similar offense because their skillsets are generally the same (though Mayfield was superior).
Haskins' skillset is similar to Eli. A big, pocket passer with a strong arm, who can move a little bit but isn't going to be scrambling for anything. Basically Phil Simms, Kerry Collins, and Eli. All similar (though Simms ran a little more when he was younger). This is what you think of when you think of a Giants' QB. What made Hostetler so dangerous when he took over in 1990 was that he could run and that threw off teams preparation. Dave Brown believe it or not, was actually a decent scrambler. He had no weapons to work with and...well...he stunk otherwise.
It's rare you get a situation like in Baltimore where you go from a statue in Joe Flacco to Lamar Jackson. Bringing a Murray to the Giants would be similar.
Haskins is probably the "safest" pick for the Giants and they sit him behind Eli. I just don't want him at 6 and certainly not at a trade up before.
Logical enough, a rational plan by the Browns,, but we're all discombobulated with half baked ideas of Mara/Tisch with Eli in two WCO regimes, possibly lookin at Haskins who also would not fit the scheme and personnel.
I realize there are defensive players that are going to be on the board there who will be really appealing, but if you're really sold on the QB, you have to take him @ 6. Don't get cute - that's how you get burned and lose your guy.
I'm not saying Haskins is or isn't the ideal choice @ 6. But if the Giants see him as a franchise QB - 6 is not too high to take him.
I agree
Seems pretty clear to Joe Beningo and throngs of worshipful Bbi Jets fans.
Let's Play Is it Andy Dalton or Darnold rookie year qbr?
77.6 or 80.4
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it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
They have 12 picks this year and Eli has not (yet) been extended. That they have spent time in the media tour with Gettleman to vigorously defend Eli and also toss out "KC Model" and that they will get a QB if things work out ideally, I think the Giants have set the table to draft a QB.
That Haskins only has 1 year playing college football. he turns 22 in May really makes it easy for the Giants to invest a high pick in him and tell the fan base he's gotta sit and learn from Eli. That he comes from a winning program that everyone has seen and just for fun, he's a Giants fan! (remember how that was mentioned about Golden Tate), all the boxes are checked for the Giants to sell to the fans an orderly transition from Eli to Haskins, without it seeming like he's got blood on his hands. And if we've seen anything since the 2017 benching, yes, this matters to Mara and the Giants organization. They will treat this whole thing with kid gloves to do it better than the way McAdoo handled it. Shurmur is no dummy, he will want to keep his job.
I think I just convinced myself they are getting Haskins...;)
I agree Haskins seems like the obvious pick. The issue most of us are having with Haskins is all the defensive talent available with that pick.
To me, Haskins, Lock or a trade for Rosen are all good options. In fact, I would prefer trading for Rosen and going Defense with #6 and OL with #17.
This. I don't particularly like Haskins but I'm not a scout or GM. If they think he can be the guy then go for it. Everyone keeps saying they want us to pick a QB, well this could be it.
Or they are just doing their do diligence to makes sure they aren't missing out. And again, that's a good thing.
Where is this coming from? Darnold looked pretty bad for most of last season. People have gotten all over Josh Rosen for how he played last year, Darnold wasn't much better. Honestly from what I saw of him, I thought Josh Allen looked like he has more upside than Darnold does.
At this point the only QB from last year that I think you can confidently say is going to be "really, really good" is Baker Mayfield.
I don't think you want to fall into the trap of putting too much weight on how good or bad the team around him was. We did the same thing with Josh Allen last year.
Eli Manning played for college teams with little to no talent around him too, but the difference he made on the field was a lot more tangible than Duke with Daniel Jones.
Not to open a can of worms, but I do agree there are similarities between the level of talent Eli and Jones played with. Eli led Ole Miss to their first winning seasons + bowl games in a very long time. Jones won 2 consecutive bowl games at duke when they had only won 1 in the previous 50+ years. I know comparing anything QB related to Eli right now is a hot button issue, but I do think this is among their similarities.
The difference between Jones and Josh Allen last year is that Allen didn't play Clemson or Miami on the road. Those 2 performances against defenses comprised entirely of NFL talent go a long way in my mind.
like i said it was brief, so I might be slightly off, but I think that was the gist of it.
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I’m in
So what do you think he saw in Lauletta?
You’re comparing a 4th round pick with a possible #6 in the entire draft?
I think he'll likely be the 2nd best QB in that class when all is said and done - but let's pump the brakes a bit. We can't just skip through the rest of his development and assume we know where it goes based on the limited exposure he's had to the league thus far.
Plus he’ll certainly be helped A LOT by having Bell as his RB, assuming he hasn’t lost much
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it seems pretty clear that Darnold is going to be really really good. If the Giants pass AGAIN this year, they better nail the QB next year, because if they don’t, they really fucked this entire thing up beyond repair.
Seems pretty clear to Joe Beningo and throngs of worshipful Bbi Jets fans.
Let's Play Is it Andy Dalton or Darnold rookie year qbr?
77.6 or 80.4
Right now all I see is average JAG QB out of Darnold, which would be a huge waste to pick at #3. I see superstar out of Barkley.
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Darnold did a lot of good things, he also struggled badly in several games and missed a little time in year one due to injury.
I think he'll likely be the 2nd best QB in that class when all is said and done - but let's pump the brakes a bit. We can't just skip through the rest of his development and assume we know where it goes based on the limited exposure he's had to the league thus far.
Plus he’ll certainly be helped A LOT by having Bell as his RB, assuming he hasn’t lost much
I'm very interested in seeing what Le'Veon looks like after a year off. He looked like he was in kind of crappy shape when I saw photos of him during last year, etc.
I'm sure he's still got gas in the tank. But PIT knew he wasn't going to be there long-term and they had him shoulder some very heavy loads when he was playing. Good bit of wear on those treads.
I think his "explosive" arm strength is overrated, it looks fairly typical in what I've seen but there are certainly some throws that stand out. He also carries the risk of being a 1 year wonder and the fact that his stats were inflated by a system that generated a lot of big plays off screen passes. IMO Jones has a better motion, throws a better deep ball, and has more mobility while Haskins throws with more precision and certainly put up big numbers.
I watched his highlights of the loss against Purdue this year and came away more impressed from that than his big statistical game against michigan. His teammates dropped a lot of balls and he really hung in there and did everything he could to keep them in the Purdue game. Haskins vs. Purdue - ( New Window )
Not sure I would be using Purdue game highlights.
Btw, Haskins' backup hit 23 of 28 passes for 269 yards during the season. Small sample size but was Haskins Ohio State or was Haskins the beneficiary of overwhelming personnel (like 2 1,000 yard running backs) superiority on the part of the Ohio State?
IMO Haskins has got Brock Osweiler written all over him.