NFT: Mets Discussion: Alonso and Smith both likely on OD roster

What a dumb move. It is only 14 games....keep Alonso down to get the additional year.

and I'll say it again, I think Todd Frazier is going to the 60 Day disabled list. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he was outright cut. I'd prefer we play JD Davis at 3rd and give him the chance to play everyday at that position. Who knows when Lowrie will return?

He’s gambling the good will the franchise gets from it.
And that the new CBA makes the point moot.
Not a gamble I would take, personally.
We will see how it plays out.

I ignore Callaway when he speaks about the roster at this point so we'll see.

players that playing time is granted be sheer performance, not contractual situations. Good for them and a long time coming. Look how the previous regimes handled Oliver Perez. That was a disgrace to leave the team shorthanded by accommodating that player.

It's a tough division this year and they all count.

I'd like to see Alonso playing everyday. I imagine Dom will get some run here and there, particularly in interleague play, because obviously he should be traded.

In comment 14349709 No Where Man said:

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and I'll say it again, I think Todd Frazier is going to the 60 Day disabled list. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he was outright cut. I'd prefer we play JD Davis at 3rd and give him the chance to play everyday at that position. Who knows when Lowrie will return?

60 day DL? What? He's already swinging a bat. Why would he miss the first 2 months of the season? Cut? By his ex-agent? Frazier is not being cut nor is he being put on the 60 day DL.

Todd Frazier (oblique) has resumed running.
Frazier began to do mimicking swing work on Sunday, and now he's starting to up the ante as he recovers from the oblique injury. Right now, he's a 50/50 proposition to be ready for the season opener, but if he's not ready for that, it shouldn't be too much longer of a wait for the 33-year-old.

By the time Frazier's ready for some tune-up games, that'll be more time. BVW is not his agent anymore. Like I said, contractual obligations should mean nothing. All of these kids have played well in the spring. Their performances should earn them their chances.

In comment 14349767 No Where Man said:

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By the time Frazier's ready for some tune-up games, that'll be more time. BVW is not his agent anymore. Like I said, contractual obligations should mean nothing. All of these kids have played well in the spring. Their performances should earn them their chances.

He's not cutting his long time client this late in ST when rosters are being finalized. How about this.. if Frazier is cut outright... I won't post on a single Mets thread for the first 2 months of the season. His contract is guaranteed, there is absolutely ZERO reason to eat that money right now. No good argument for it

anymore. Are you telling me that even if he was healthy he should be their top choice to play 3rd? They signed Lowrie to do that. Prior to this you told me that there was absolutely no way Alonso & Smith would make the Opening Day roster, and that has happened. I really respect all of your posts, insights, and opinions, but the decision making paradym in this organization is changing. I think you have to realize that. Things aren't so clear cut anymore based on the past SOP.

both long shots for opening day, but at least Frazier is close.

And the fact Frazier at least seems close adds more question to the soundness of the decision to bring Alonso north to start the season (if that's what they decide).

Frazier can be the RH bat 1B and I'd love to hear how it wouldn't be a platoon with Alonso and Smith both getting playing time at the same position.

I can't see that at all. We have a chance to have any outstanding young infield sans Cano. Why not go with them and let them grow together?

In comment 14349819 No Where Man said:

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I can't see that at all. We have a chance to have any outstanding young infield sans Cano. Why not go with them and let them grow together?

All the Mets have to do is send Alonso to Syracuse for two weeks to retain an additional year of team control.

So yes, I support Dom Smith as exclusive 1B for those two weeks with Frazier spelling him if he doesn't start out hot.

This is in the Mets interest for a variety of reasons all spelled out on numerous Mets threads.

doesn't seem to be thinking that way anymore. And good for them. If you've earned your spot with your play, then you're in the lineup, bar none. So if indeed this holds up, then Alonso will play the vast majority of the games, and Smith will spell him when necessary, pinch hit, and also become the late inning defensive 1B.

no huge Frazier fan but lets not act like he was Jay Bruce bad last year. He was roughly a league average regular (1.5 fWAR over 472 PA's). 18 homers, 9 steals, above average glove at 3b. Steamer projects .8 fWAR over half a season worth of ab's. He's an average player at this point and a plus in the clubhouse. If you saved money cutting him to spend somewhere else, yeah maybe.,. but you don't.

younger player from performing better. We should not settle to see average performances anymore. Didn't we have to endure Jason Bay, night after night, when he clearly couldn't produce, but was in the lineup because they were paying him? He was so bad, almost anyone else would have done better. Now we have some talent in McNeil and Davis on this team and Vientos down the line. Our younger and talented players should not be forced to sit over mediocre performances. A player like Todd Frazier should be our fallback option, not an Opening Day starter.

but I'd have said from the beginning that even with a great spring he'll be starting in Syracuse because this is a business. you don't give up a year of service for 50 at bats.

Dom's off to a great spring. he could play every day for 3 weeks with no harm done.

P thinks Mickey is trying to convince the Mets to take Alonso North with his quotes vs. that being the decision just yet.

beginning of Spring training.

is Jeff P

Jeffrey Paternostro
@jeffpaternostro
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9m
I will give Callaway some credit insomuch as he is at least doing his best with his media quotes to try and shame the team into taking Alonso north. Only thing that usually works.

I’ve come around on it. Alonso’s the starter. Smith is the lefty on the bench. Both earned the roster.

People forget if Alonso struggles you can send him down to AAA later for 14 days. You could even do that next year too. It doesn’t have to be in the beginning of the year. We may recoup that year yet. And if we don’t because he’s so good and winning us ballgames immediately? I guess I can live with that too.

a tweet that said the Mets expect a deGrom extension to be completed before the end of next week.

If you send him down for the 14 days, and you bring him back and he cools off, you know he’s going to think that sending him down was the reason and why screw with his head. I’m wondering if the manager is taking the player side so if the GM sends him down, the manager looks better in Alonso’s eyes. That said, keeping him is a totally unlike Mets move and would show the team is totally ready to compete unlike the Coupon Wilpon way of doing things

.

In comment 14349908 ZGiants98 said:

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I’ve come around on it. Alonso’s the starter. Smith is the lefty on the bench. Both earned the roster. People forget if Alonso struggles you can send him down to AAA later for 14 days. You could even do that next year too. It doesn’t have to be in the beginning of the year. We may recoup that year yet. And if we don’t because he’s so good and winning us ballgames immediately? I guess I can live with that too.

Is that true - just has to be 14 days at some point this year or next? Hmmm, that's interesting...

In comment 14349908 ZGiants98 said:

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I’ve come around on it. Alonso’s the starter. Smith is the lefty on the bench. Both earned the roster. People forget if Alonso struggles you can send him down to AAA later for 14 days. You could even do that next year too. It doesn’t have to be in the beginning of the year. We may recoup that year yet. And if we don’t because he’s so good and winning us ballgames immediately? I guess I can live with that too.

If this is true, then why don't teams break camp with players and then if they're not in contention send the player down the last two weeks of August to keep the years of control?

And if they are in contention it's possible (probable?) the player had a hand in that and they deserve to stay up with the big league club.

If this is true then sure it makes more sense, but that's not how I understood service time clocks to start, you could be right though.

over roster moves like this

In comment 14350029 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 14349908 ZGiants98 said: Quote: I’ve come around on it. Alonso’s the starter. Smith is the lefty on the bench. Both earned the roster. People forget if Alonso struggles you can send him down to AAA later for 14 days. You could even do that next year too. It doesn’t have to be in the beginning of the year. We may recoup that year yet. And if we don’t because he’s so good and winning us ballgames immediately? I guess I can live with that too. If this is true, then why don't teams break camp with players and then if they're not in contention send the player down the last two weeks of August to keep the years of control? And if they are in contention it's possible (probable?) the player had a hand in that and they deserve to stay up with the big league club. If this is true then sure it makes more sense, but that's not how I understood service time clocks to start, you could be right though.

Jeff P says legally they could... but they wouldn't do this. Teams don't do this because he would be part of the MLB union and the union would file a grievance and almost certainly win. Considering you never see this happen EVER I think it's safe to say this is not a legitimate path. You potentially start a war with ALL of the players on the roster (and potential FA). MLB players don't particularly care about minor leaguers (see how there is no push for more money for them) but once they are union... there is no backing down.

Matt Ehalt
@MattEhalt
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3m
Per a source, Mets catcher Devin Mesoraco is using the upward mobility out in his contract. Essentially Mets now notify teams that Mesoraco can be added to their 25-man rosters, & if there's interest, Mets then let him go or have to add him to the 25-man roster. This is expected.

If he’s performing well. Of course, that would start a war with the union. But if he’s struggling? Alonso and the union have zero case. Rookie’s get sent down all the time for not performing. If Alonso spends 14 more days in the minors, at any time, Mets get the year of control back.

Could be wrong. If he doesn’t he likely ends up in AAA which would be great for us.

In comment 14349946 pjcas18 said:

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a tweet that said the Mets expect a deGrom extension to be completed before the end of next week.

It’s going to happen. Still believe it will 100%. Likely working on it now and will be announced right before season starts. Will add good will with team and fans and kick the season off on the right foot.

and he said it was a priority. He knows exactly what JDG is looking for and literally begged the team to start negotiations prior to being named GM.

Smith vs. Alonso should be a relatively easy decision. Smith has played really well and they both need to play every day. 1 guy has had a taste of the majors and face both Strausburg + Scherzer before, 1 guy hasn't. 1 guy is better defensively. 1 guy has a contractual benefit to starting the year in the minors. I'd have 0 issue starting the season with Alonso at 1st - I was the biggest proponent possible of promoting him in August last year - IF he was the clear choice. But he's not.

The best thing for the Mets org is to maximize both assets. If there's a chance Smith is poised for a breakout you give it a shot. That's worth more than the goodwill. Let Alonso start his year strong at AAA not needing to make his pro debut facing Scherzer and bring him up as soon as you need him. Exactly 2 weeks would for the road trip against ATL, PHI, & St. Lou. Seems like a good moment if he's ready (and Dom hasn't continued his hot ST).

the goodwill it would bring by having Alonso in Queens and playing 1B from day one, but why doesn't Dom Smith get goodwill?

Smith is younger than Alonso, so it's not like keeping Alonso would send a message to the youngsters.

Why wouldn't naming Smith the OD starter and having Alonso spend 2 weeks in Syracuse create more goodwill - with the current players/veterans?

I haven't seen this anywhere.

In comment 14351353 schabadoo said:

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I haven't seen this anywhere.

Actually the claim was they would platoon. Mickey flat out said yesterday this 100% isn't happening (a platoon).

"If both first basemen crack the 25-man roster, Callaway says there will be NO platoon and did not offer to elaborate on their playing time. “Both of them have shown that they can hit both righties and lefties,” said Callaway...."

Mickey says a lot of shit but couldn't be any more clear on this

In comment 14351024 pjcas18 said:

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the goodwill it would bring by having Alonso in Queens and playing 1B from day one, but why doesn't Dom Smith get goodwill? Smith is younger than Alonso, so it's not like keeping Alonso would send a message to the youngsters. Why wouldn't naming Smith the OD starter and having Alonso spend 2 weeks in Syracuse create more goodwill - with the current players/veterans?

PJ,
Because the perception would be Alonso being kept down is 100% a service time issue. You think the veterans give a shit about Alonso OR Smith? It's about $$ and the monkeying with service time to save money is a hot button issue. Smith being sent down does not look nearly as bad as Alonso.

but Kris Bryant was kept down for service time, Ron Acuna, Jiminez,, Guerrero, etc. many, many more.

Alonso is older than them, but not nearly the prospect those guys are/were, yes there is growing contempt around this issue, but I don't think sending Alonso down, the right move, impacts goodwill.

In comment 14351383 pjcas18 said:

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but Kris Bryant was kept down for service time, Ron Acuna, Jiminez,, Guerrero, etc. many, many more. Alonso is older than them, but not nearly the prospect those guys are/were, yes there is growing contempt around this issue, but I don't think sending Alonso down, the right move, impacts goodwill.

I think the people saying that believe keeping him UP would sending a positive message vs. sending him down causing any real harm.

In comment 14351385 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 14351383 pjcas18 said: Quote: but Kris Bryant was kept down for service time, Ron Acuna, Jiminez,, Guerrero, etc. many, many more. Alonso is older than them, but not nearly the prospect those guys are/were, yes there is growing contempt around this issue, but I don't think sending Alonso down, the right move, impacts goodwill. I think the people saying that believe keeping him UP would sending a positive message vs. sending him down causing any real harm.

I guess. These guys all know it's a business, including Alonso.

My point though was that keeping Alonso up at least partly diminishes Smith. The Mets should be looking at the best interest of the team long-term as well as short-term. And rewarding Smith for showing up in shape and "winning" the starting job I think would be more of a positive message.

within 5 minutes and count for nothing while inflicting an actual tangible negative is not something any organization should do. So I guess it's happening.

send Eloy Jimenez down after signing him to a million dollar multi-year deal then Mets will do the same.

Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
·
6m
Snell indeed has a 5-yr, $50M deal with #Rays.
@JeffPassan
1st

In comment 14351441 Rory said:

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send Eloy Jimenez down after signing him to a million dollar multi-year deal then Mets will do the same.

At this point the White Sox wouldn't save anything with Jimenez, right? He's loses a year of service since he signed a major league contract, (is that a thing?)

before the contract extension it was speculated he'd being in AAA. Now I don't think they gain by doing that, but not sure.

In comment 14351777 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 14351441 Rory said: Quote: send Eloy Jimenez down after signing him to a million dollar multi-year deal then Mets will do the same. At this point the White Sox wouldn't save anything with Jimenez, right? He's loses a year of service since he signed a major league contract, (is that a thing?) before the contract extension it was speculated he'd being in AAA. Now I don't think they gain by doing that, but not sure.

There would be nothing financial gained. He's collecting a big league salary from now on.

Over Alonso. Slapping a bunch of singles around is nice and all but Alonso is having the better spring.

.869 OPS this spring with a HR and a 2 2B's among his 15 hits with a higher OBP than Alonso and better D (from what I've read on the D).

Yes Alonso is a better prospect and eventually (this year?) be the starting 1B but if the Mets handled prospect management/young players correctly Alonso should have had to blow Dom Smith away to win the job. And he didn't do that.

Still but I’m moving on. Alonso is the future at 1B. I’ve seen enough. The dude is OPS’ing 1.034 this spring. He’s ready. Other than delaying Alonso’s clock I don’t really see where Smith is going to fit anywhere anyway. Best bet is for him to do well in Syracuse and become a nice trade chip again. Smith had his chances and blew it.

In comment 14351866 pjcas18 said:

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.869 OPS this spring with a HR and a 2 2B's among his 15 hits with a higher OBP than Alonso and better D (from what I've read on the D). Yes Alonso is a better prospect and eventually (this year?) be the starting 1B but if the Mets handled prospect management/young players correctly Alonso should have had to blow Dom Smith away to win the job. And he didn't do that.

Yes and Alonso’s ops is 200 points higher. My point remains. Smith didn’t “win” the job on merit. Alonso did.

In comment 14351874 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 14351866 pjcas18 said: Quote: .869 OPS this spring with a HR and a 2 2B's among his 15 hits with a higher OBP than Alonso and better D (from what I've read on the D). Yes Alonso is a better prospect and eventually (this year?) be the starting 1B but if the Mets handled prospect management/young players correctly Alonso should have had to blow Dom Smith away to win the job. And he didn't do that. Yes and Alonso’s ops is 200 points higher. My point remains. Smith didn’t “win” the job on merit. Alonso did.

Maybe, it depends how they evaluate the players. I don't know how it works.

If it's purely stack up the OPS, and pick the higher one as the winner then sure Alonso wins, but if it's complete player and defense matters I don't know if he does, probably not.

But my point was that Alonso shouldn't have had to simply have a higher OPS, he should have had to beat Smith in every facet making it a non-contest, and I don't think he did that.

It's better for the Mets long-term for Smith to be the opening day 1B and do well, and Alonso to hit the shit out of the ball in Syracuse for a while.

Personally, after watching both now I just feel like Alonso has a chance to be “special”. Don’t have that feeling with Smith although I’d like to see them both do well.

whereas Alonso hasn't seen a single pitch in the big leagues. 3 of our first 9 games are probably against those guys, obviously both righties. They are hard enough to get runs off with veterans, doesn't scream like the best way to break a guy into the big leagues to me. That's a pretty significant binary difference, as is defense, so those are 2 big positives in Smith's column for me.

Let Alonso get off the year strong in Cuse. If someone is going to go 0-4 against Scherzer opening day, I'd rather it be Smith.

In comment 14351899 ZGiants98 said:

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Personally, after watching both now I just feel like Alonso has a chance to be “special”. Don’t have that feeling with Smith although I’d like to see them both do well.

I can to, and I won't be furious no matter what the Mets decide, but I think Smith was an afterthought all off-season and he gave the Mets a good option while saving a year of Alonso control.

If you're right and he is special (and I think his bat could be), it will be worth it.

Even for a team as desperate to win now as the Mets should be.

Conforto and Nimmo seem to be finishing up very hot. Conforto looks like he’s going to hit the ground running this year. Cano and Ramos have been good all spring. McNeil keeps hitting. Lineup can potentially be really good this year. Wish Lowrie was healthy but that’s about the only issue right now. (Knock on wood). Really like the lineup configuration today too.

Man this team healthy with Cespedes might be one of the scariest teams in baseball. Hurry back!

DH-ing today vs the Cards.

He played in one other game, correct?

Still 17 for another couple weeks, kind of cool to see him get ST at-bats against major leaguers.