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Ian Wharton Charts Haskins: Strongest Profile Since Luck

arcarsenal : 3/20/2019 6:59 pm
First, let me clear the air...

Luck, to me, was a better prospect than Haskins. By a decent margin. I only included that little tidbit to grab the reader - but those are essentially the results he's found here. I don't actually think Haskins = Luck and don't want the thread to devolve into that.

Anyway, Wharton's work on Haskins was mentioned a few times here and there in different threads. Im not sure if this was shared, but I thought it was a pretty deep dive/worth sharing on its own.



I know one of the biggest hot button topics on DH has been the pressure angle. Whether the narrative is "didn't face it," or - incorrectly - "couldn't handle it," - I think you'll see here that in the short/midrange game, it's actually not true at all that he couldn't handle it.

In fact, he fared quite well.

The deep ball pressure passes are obviously completed at a very low clip - I'd imagine this to be true for most QB's. Throwing a ball 20+ yards when you're pressured probably has relatively low odds at a completion.

The plus is that he only turned the ball over one time that way. So, while you'd like to see him hit on a couple more of those long balls, he's at least protecting the rock and not giving it away.

Wharton's situational play charting does a nice job of breaking down how he did in different scenarios.

This is the final chart Wharton did pre-draft. Similar charts have been shared here, but this one is from 10 days ago - so I don't believe this is the same one that we've had floating around here before that.



I've made no secrets that I like this guy. I think he's a really nice fit for the Giants in more than one way. Very bright kid, wants to be here - this was his team as a kid - he puts in the work. He understands the game. Has the persona to handle New York without issue (if you think this point is irrelevant - see the last trade we made....)

Perfect prospect? No, of course not.

I worry about the situational footwork. He throws off his back foot a lot. He drifts backwards too far and sometimes just continues to drift backwards with pressure coming rather than trying to jump up past the wave and get ahead of it to either get rid of the ball or avoid a big loss.

RZ production is also a common knock - but I'm not sure that's entirely attributable to Haskins. A lot of the spread concepts don't work as well down near the goal line where you start to get totally squeezed by the back boundary and I'm not sure the sample size is even large enough for me to take away a whole lot.

TL;DR - in the end, I think the footwork concerns, lack of experience, and even RZ production are fair critiques.

His arm is the best NFL arm in this class, though. His football IQ is very high, and most importantly Haskins continued to get better and better as the year went on. He is still getting better, he will continue to do so in the pros with good coaching, and if I'm going to trust Pat Shurmur to do anything, it's develop the QB.

This isn't Davis Webb where no amount of hard work will cover up that he's just not much of a player.

I thought he looked really good today, and most encouragingly, made some great throws on the move - which is what I've been looking for.

Louis Riddick today - "I'm all in on the man"

I don't think it'd be wise to trade up in this particular draft - but if DH is there at 6, go get him.
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A concern I had about Haskins was how he'd do under pressure.  
Giantgator : 3/20/2019 7:28 pm : link
His numbers under pressure were great, second only to Lock. Even better are his numbers on 3rd/4th down.
RE: This means nothing  
arcarsenal : 3/20/2019 7:30 pm : link
In comment 14350336 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
Until we see all his work from lasts
Years QBs and other QBs than luck.
In other words, do these numbers mean anything?


They do if you know how to read them.

The chart includes a cumulative breakdown and situational numbers against the field of 65 QB's since the 2012 class. So, other classes are included in those rankings.

This one includes Luck and several other QB's if you'd like to compare:

RE: A concern I had about Haskins was how he'd do under pressure.  
Amtoft : 3/20/2019 7:31 pm : link
In comment 14350353 Giantgator said:
Quote:
His numbers under pressure were great, second only to Lock. Even better are his numbers on 3rd/4th down.


Yep those are really good!
My hope was that we would have  
732NYG : 3/20/2019 7:56 pm : link
Haskins at QB with Saquon and Odell. Alas, it was not meant to be.
RE: .  
Pan-handler : 3/20/2019 8:04 pm : link
In comment 14350333 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Rosen for anything less than a 1 would probably still be the best overall route for the Giants to go if they want to really maximize value.

So, should that present itself, that's probably a preferable scenario because it allows us to really stack defensive players in the draft.

That's if Rosen is available. He may not be. Or the price may be higher than we think.

This is just info we don't have, so I can't really do any more than hypothesize on that.


Fair analysis. Thanks for sharing. Haskins would be a great pick. We are fortunate to be in position to draft a potential franchise QB to take the reins from Eli
RE: My hope was that we would have  
Pan-handler : 3/20/2019 8:06 pm : link
In comment 14350397 732NYG said:
Quote:
Haskins at QB with Saquon and Odell. Alas, it was not meant to be.


Giants receiving game was quite efficient without him. Engram averaged about 80 yds over the last 4 games.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/20/2019 8:17 pm : link
One other thing that stood out to me is Lock's short game accuracy - it doesn't seem to be on par with most of the others'.

Not sure if it's a lack of touch, or if there's not much to it and it's just a sample size thing or a byproduct of players around him - but we know Eli has been a little off on his short game throughout his career, so Lock may also be one of those guys.

Obviously it didn't wreck Eli's career and he had a pretty damn good one anyway, so it's not something that would make me remove Lock from my board or anything - just something that stuck out.
Arc...  
sxdxca : 3/20/2019 9:16 pm : link
You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it.

However notice what happens when Haskins faces pressure...

Against Washington, he faced no pressure through 3 quarters, even the announcers were saying he had all day.

At the 7:45 mark in this 9 minute highlight video, you will see once pressure comes he folds like a cheap suit.

He threw two balls which should have been intercepted, balls were being thrown behind, in the ground, he took sack after sack.

He is a pure pocket passer, who has little to no mobility. Without a perfect O line in front of him, combined with the Giants O line, this may be a fatal mistake.

Here is the video, watch from the 7:45 mark when Washington begins to bring pressure. I've provided the link

Let me know what you think?
Haskins 7:45 - ( New Window )
.  
arcarsenal : 3/20/2019 9:28 pm : link
I like that you're making everyone skip all the way to 7:45 - conveniently allows them to miss the excellent strike he throws around the 7:30 mark.

His entire protection breaks down on the first sack - where do you think he's going on that play? Nearly any QB is going down there. The end was on his back in under 2 seconds. The left guard misses his block completely.

The next play, he correctly senses the free rusher from his blind side and completes the pass to his safety valve RB.

8:12, again - the guy comes through completely unblocked. The RT doesn't even lay a finger on him.

Haskins still gets rid of the ball and it falls incomplete deep right.

Around 8:20, they send A-gap pressure, Haskins completes a crossing route for a short gain.

Throws a catchable pass after that that his WR drops.

This "folds up like a cheap suit" stuff is bullshit. That's not what's going on here.

OSU won the game, Haskins tossed 3 scores and didn't turn the ball over. If that's what I'm getting from him when he faces pressure, sign me the fuck up.
RE: RE: My hope was that we would have  
732NYG : 3/20/2019 9:32 pm : link
In comment 14350410 Pan-handler said:
Quote:
In comment 14350397 732NYG said:


Quote:


Haskins at QB with Saquon and Odell. Alas, it was not meant to be.



Giants receiving game was quite efficient without him. Engram averaged about 80 yds over the last 4 games.


I think we should be good to go, just as long as we get a reliable deep target that defenses need to plan for. Odell obviously fit that bill, but when he demanded such a majority of the passes, it definitely hinders an offenseís balance.
Good thread Arc.  
Strahan91 : 3/20/2019 9:36 pm : link
In addition, I think it's worth adding some additional context from a column Dane Brugler wrote evaluating the QB's in this class based purely on the analytics:

Top three in pass vs pressure defined as ďpass attempts in which a quarterback is hurried, hit or knocked down.Ē

Player Rating Att Comp Comp% Yds TD Int Yds/Att
1 Kyler Murray, OU 109.5 72 37 51.4% 633 9 2 8.8
2 Dwayne Haskins, OSU 87.6 116 68 58.6% 760 7 3 6.6
3 Tyree Jackson, BUF 84.6 88 38 43.2% 823 7 4 9.4

Quote:
As the 2018 season progressed, so did Dwayne Haskinsí reaction to pressure. And that is reflected in the numbers. His completion percentage (58.6 percent) was the best of the 16 quarterbacks and slightly better than Mayfieldís 56 percent last season.


Haskins was also #1 in passing 20+ yards downfield, #3 in the red zone and had 24 TD's, second to only Minshew in this class.

Maybe most important was passing on in the fourth quarter in games within 1 score:

Top three

Player Rating Att Comp Comp% Yds TD Int Yds/Att
1 Dwayne Haskins, OSU 150.9 35 25 71.4% 430 4 0 12.3
2 Kyler Murray, OU 127.7 23 20 87.0% 257 1 0 11.2
3 Gardner Minshew, WSU 121.0 76 51 67.1% 669 6 0 8.8

Quote:
Haskins and Minshew were the only quarterbacks with at least four touchdowns and zero interceptions in these situations.


Analytical Scouting: Dwayne Haskins, Kyler Murray score the best using quarterback stats that translate - ( New Window )
This is awesome, thanks for posting  
ChaChing : 3/20/2019 9:37 pm : link
I always thought I'd look at QBs much like this if I were pro. Stats in the RZ, 3rd down, 4th qtr, late game / 2 min, vs pressure, and of course this type of breakdown in terms of distance etc. Obviously there's more angles to look, but this is a pretty comprehensive view in terms of passing as directly related to production

Then as mentioned, use this to compare current & former QBs at prospect time. The raw numbers are fine but IMO it's about rank compared to the field. So yeah, Haskins certainly looks like a good pick even at the top, especially if he comps favorably vs even the last few year's prospects

Fwiw, this also puts Will Grier out front. I'm sure there's a larger story but this exercise helps make valid comps especially considering draft projection. If a similar talent is available later - early 2nd if not just #17 - I'd take a long look
Strahan91...thanks for the additional link too  
ChaChing : 3/20/2019 9:38 pm : link
good info
RE: Good thread Arc.  
arcarsenal : 3/20/2019 9:40 pm : link
In comment 14350596 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In addition, I think it's worth adding some additional context from a column Dane Brugler wrote evaluating the QB's in this class based purely on the analytics:

Top three in pass vs pressure defined as ďpass attempts in which a quarterback is hurried, hit or knocked down.Ē

Player Rating Att Comp Comp% Yds TD Int Yds/Att
1 Kyler Murray, OU 109.5 72 37 51.4% 633 9 2 8.8
2 Dwayne Haskins, OSU 87.6 116 68 58.6% 760 7 3 6.6
3 Tyree Jackson, BUF 84.6 88 38 43.2% 823 7 4 9.4



Quote:


As the 2018 season progressed, so did Dwayne Haskinsí reaction to pressure. And that is reflected in the numbers. His completion percentage (58.6 percent) was the best of the 16 quarterbacks and slightly better than Mayfieldís 56 percent last season.



Haskins was also #1 in passing 20+ yards downfield, #3 in the red zone and had 24 TD's, second to only Minshew in this class.

Maybe most important was passing on in the fourth quarter in games within 1 score:

Top three

Player Rating Att Comp Comp% Yds TD Int Yds/Att
1 Dwayne Haskins, OSU 150.9 35 25 71.4% 430 4 0 12.3
2 Kyler Murray, OU 127.7 23 20 87.0% 257 1 0 11.2
3 Gardner Minshew, WSU 121.0 76 51 67.1% 669 6 0 8.8



Quote:


Haskins and Minshew were the only quarterbacks with at least four touchdowns and zero interceptions in these situations.

Analytical Scouting: Dwayne Haskins, Kyler Murray score the best using quarterback stats that translate - ( New Window )


Thanks for adding this - good stuff here that I hadn't seen yet.
I really like the way Haskins scans the whole field  
Eric on Li : 3/20/2019 9:51 pm : link
he and Murray are both so fascinating to evaluate because of their limited careers + systems, but Haskins has a very natural passing ability. The only 2 things I don't love about him are the throwing motion and the fact that he's not all that mobile - but if they determine he's the next franchise QB I'm on board.
RE: .  
sxdxca : 3/20/2019 9:52 pm : link
In comment 14350587 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I like that you're making everyone skip all the way to 7:45 - conveniently allows them to miss the excellent strike he throws around the 7:30 mark.

His entire protection breaks down on the first sack - where do you think he's going on that play? Nearly any QB is going down there. The end was on his back in under 2 seconds. The left guard misses his block completely.

The next play, he correctly senses the free rusher from his blind side and completes the pass to his safety valve RB.

8:12, again - the guy comes through completely unblocked. The RT doesn't even lay a finger on him.

Haskins still gets rid of the ball and it falls incomplete deep right.

Around 8:20, they send A-gap pressure, Haskins completes a crossing route for a short gain.

Throws a catchable pass after that that his WR drops.

This "folds up like a cheap suit" stuff is bullshit. That's not what's going on here.

OSU won the game, Haskins tossed 3 scores and didn't turn the ball over. If that's what I'm getting from him when he faces pressure, sign me the fuck up.


Arc, that wasn't my point.

The reason why I wanted you to watch from 7:45 is prior to that, he has sometimes as much as 5-6 seconds to throw the ball.

At the 8:12 mark, there were two defenders on him, he threw the ball 10 yards over the guys head.

At 8:17 mark, under pressure again, back peddles and throws off his back foot, hits his receiver 4 yards short of a first down.

At 8:22 mark, under no pressure throws it high, almost picked off.

At 8:31 mark, under some pressure, throws a terrible ball.

At 8:51 mark, he's sacked again

At 9:06 mark, pressured again, throws it behind, and almost gets picked for the 2nd time.

At 9:21 mark, he rolls out, and throws it way out in front, not accurate, incomplete...

I guess we will have to agree to disagree here, you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

We just see things clearly differently. Does Haskins have a good arm? Yes, he does.

But my point is under pressure, he doesn't create something out of nothing, and that's what scares me.

Have a good night man...
I still..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/20/2019 10:07 pm : link
have reservations about picking a QB with only one year of starting under his belt, but I really like all the other aspects of Haskins.

Do not want to see a trade up to get him, but if he's there - I'd like the pick
RE: RE: This means nothing  
bw in dc : 3/20/2019 10:34 pm : link
In comment 14350356 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14350336 ZogZerg said:


Quote:


Until we see all his work from lasts
Years QBs and other QBs than luck.
In other words, do these numbers mean anything?



They do if you know how to read them.

The chart includes a cumulative breakdown and situational numbers against the field of 65 QB's since the 2012 class. So, other classes are included in those rankings.

This one includes Luck and several other QB's if you'd like to compare:



Okay, I addressed this last week. This chart it has a major problem. No one with a straight face can look at these numbers and say Haskins was better throwing against pressure than Goff. Goff faced some of the most relentless pressure I have seen for a top QB prospect in a long time. Sonny Dykes should have been arrested for assault. His RPO - ridiculous pass offense - hung Goff out to dry countless times. And Goff threw some of the best throws I saw his final year. I challenge anyone to go to youtube and watch Goff's footage his last year and Haskins this year and tell me that Haskins was "better" under pressure.

Just totally bizarre...
.  
arcarsenal : 3/20/2019 10:44 pm : link
I challenge you to find one Haskins thread you aren't on trying to convince people that he's never faced pressure, or that he sat back in the pocket for 8 seconds at a time on every dropback.

If you think Wharton's charting is bogus, do your own - let's see what you come up with.
RE: .  
bw in dc : 3/20/2019 10:49 pm : link
In comment 14350667 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I challenge you to find one Haskins thread you aren't on trying to convince people that he's never faced pressure, or that he sat back in the pocket for 8 seconds at a time on every dropback.

If you think Wharton's charting is bogus, do your own - let's see what you come up with.


Where did I say Haskins didn't face pressure?

I said he didn't face a high volume.

RE: .  
tyrik13 : 3/20/2019 11:31 pm : link
In comment 14350587 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I like that you're making everyone skip all the way to 7:45 - conveniently allows them to miss the excellent strike he throws around the 7:30 mark.

His entire protection breaks down on the first sack - where do you think he's going on that play? Nearly any QB is going down there. The end was on his back in under 2 seconds. The left guard misses his block completely.

The next play, he correctly senses the free rusher from his blind side and completes the pass to his safety valve RB.

8:12, again - the guy comes through completely unblocked. The RT doesn't even lay a finger on him.

Haskins still gets rid of the ball and it falls incomplete deep right.

Around 8:20, they send A-gap pressure, Haskins completes a crossing route for a short gain.

Throws a catchable pass after that that his WR drops.

This "folds up like a cheap suit" stuff is bullshit. That's not what's going on here.

OSU won the game, Haskins tossed 3 scores and didn't turn the ball over. If that's what I'm getting from him when he faces pressure, sign me the fuck up.



Good shit bro! Nice post! I was looking forward to reading something like this to see how heíd stack up against other QBs. Thank you.
RE: RE: RE: This means nothing  
section125 : 3/20/2019 11:44 pm : link
In comment 14350652 bw in dc said:
Quote:


Okay, I addressed this last week. This chart it has a major problem. No one with a straight face can look at these numbers and say Haskins was better throwing against pressure than Goff. Goff faced some of the most relentless pressure I have seen for a top QB prospect in a long time. Sonny Dykes should have been arrested for assault. His RPO - ridiculous pass offense - hung Goff out to dry countless times. And Goff threw some of the best throws I saw his final year. I challenge anyone to go to youtube and watch Goff's footage his last year and Haskins this year and tell me that Haskins was "better" under pressure.

Just totally bizarre...


What is bizarre is that you need a QB that only faced "x" number of pressures as determined by you to see if he can handle pressure. What is that number? If he faced pressure which he obviously did, as provided by the diagram/chart, you can extrapolate how he would do. and his numbers are very good.

He does not need to be pressured every down of every series to prove he can handle pressure. So what, Goff had a really crappy line and faced more pressure. He didn't look so good against the Patriots did he with a pretty good line in the biggest game? Even To Brady has trouble under pressure.
does drafting Haskins  
jestersdead : 3/21/2019 12:08 am : link
bring the OSU o line? If so, sign me up.

25 seconds into the clip he doesn't step up and run to the open field. Giants already have that.

Also, for someone that is given a chance to secure $4-7 million in money on a rookie contract, I want someone that looks in shape and seems to have prepared for their pro day. He's had 3.5 months to get in shape and look good to the public eye. He looks physically unprepared and that is a negative for me.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This means nothing  
bw in dc : 3/21/2019 12:41 am : link
In comment 14350699 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14350652 bw in dc said:


Quote:




Okay, I addressed this last week. This chart it has a major problem. No one with a straight face can look at these numbers and say Haskins was better throwing against pressure than Goff. Goff faced some of the most relentless pressure I have seen for a top QB prospect in a long time. Sonny Dykes should have been arrested for assault. His RPO - ridiculous pass offense - hung Goff out to dry countless times. And Goff threw some of the best throws I saw his final year. I challenge anyone to go to youtube and watch Goff's footage his last year and Haskins this year and tell me that Haskins was "better" under pressure.

Just totally bizarre...



What is bizarre is that you need a QB that only faced "x" number of pressures as determined by you to see if he can handle pressure. What is that number? If he faced pressure which he obviously did, as provided by the diagram/chart, you can extrapolate how he would do. and his numbers are very good.

He does not need to be pressured every down of every series to prove he can handle pressure. So what, Goff had a really crappy line and faced more pressure. He didn't look so good against the Patriots did he with a pretty good line in the biggest game? Even To Brady has trouble under pressure.


I don't know how to interpret the chart because there is no definition of what constitutes a pressure.

I do see 94 pressures in 14 games. So basic math says about 6.7 pressures per game. I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem like a lot per game.

Haskins had 533 passing attempts for the year (they list 518 but that is wrong). So basically 17.5% of his throws were under pressure (94/533). Or, about 84% of the time Haskins had no pressure. This too feels like it's a lot of time to make plays without pressure.

But I don't know how to interpret this. Is 94 really a good sample size? How does that compares to whatever benchmarks would be a normal amount - nationally, by conference, vs winning teams, versus losing teams, etc.

So I am skeptical; and really would need to see a more robust analysis and some better definitions.
RZ production is also a common knock  
Torrag : 3/21/2019 1:00 am : link
We have thsi other guy. His name is Saquon. He's going to be any QB's best friend in the red zone.
Looks like something I wrote got cut off...  
bw in dc : 3/21/2019 1:04 am : link
Furthermore, when under this pressure, how tightly were the receivers covered? What was the separation? Was it zone coverage? Was the pressure a blitz or just the regular front three or four?

You get the picture.

Look, I watch a lot of college football. And really enjoy watching these prospects. I follow the high school landscape and recruiting closely, too. So itís certainly a hobby.

Itís been a long time since I saw a QB get as little pressure, and throw to so many open receivers, as Haskins in a supposedly good conference in the Big Ten. I was in awe of the job that OSU staff setting Haskins up to succeed. And with only one year under his belt, Iím really not sure if Haskins was that good or if he was the beneficiary of a great system with superior talent...
Such short memories people have  
Torrag : 3/21/2019 1:36 am : link
Baker had the same type of protection and time to throw at Oklahoma. He also lost a game. Cleveland took the right QB.

Now it's our turn.
I just don't see it with this kid  
montanagiant : 3/21/2019 1:49 am : link
I'm no expert and I have been wrong on many things but to me he has bust written all over him
Thanks for sharing this arcs.  
BlueLou'sBack : 3/21/2019 3:45 am : link
I think it confirms my prior convictions about this year's QBs that I formed more by gut reaction to watching their tape than analysis. Haskins jumps out at you. Lock also to some extent.

As for Kyler Murray's poorer performance under pressure - I'd be wary of him because of his great OL at Oklahoma and because he's so small. His lack of size in comparison to his peers - his opposition peers, the defenders he'll be facing - will only get worse as he transitions from college to the NFL. Everyone will be even bigger, stronger, and mostly faster, and he's still going to be an averaged sized human playing a big man's game. Yeah he might be the fastest guy on the field, but the QB's job is not to just run away from all the big men coming after you.
RE: I just don't see it with this kid  
Tom from LI : 3/21/2019 5:48 am : link
In comment 14350735 montanagiant said:
Quote:
I'm no expert and I have been wrong on many things but to me he has bust written all over him


+1

Everybody here is so new QB starved that if somebody wrote a glowing article about a cardboard cut out of a QB they would all be in.

If they draft him they draft him.. if they trade up for him they are reaching. I was not a Josh Rosen fan last year and this year and I would take Rosen over him.

Drafting Haskins is going to be a mistake. I feel it in my bones.

Haskins = fools gold.

RE: RE: RE: This means nothing  
giants#1 : 3/21/2019 6:03 am : link
In comment 14350652 bw in dc said:
Quote:



Okay, I addressed this last week. This chart it has a major problem. No one with a straight face can look at these numbers and say Haskins was better throwing against pressure than Goff. Goff faced some of the most relentless pressure I have seen for a top QB prospect in a long time. Sonny Dykes should have been arrested for assault. His RPO - ridiculous pass offense - hung Goff out to dry countless times. And Goff threw some of the best throws I saw his final year. I challenge anyone to go to youtube and watch Goff's footage his last year and Haskins this year and tell me that Haskins was "better" under pressure.

Just totally bizarre...


Maybe it's your perception/bias that is wrong rather than the numbers that were charted?
RE: Looks like something I wrote got cut off...  
giants#1 : 3/21/2019 6:06 am : link
In comment 14350724 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Furthermore, when under this pressure, how tightly were the receivers covered? What was the separation? Was it zone coverage? Was the pressure a blitz or just the regular front three or four?

You get the picture.

Look, I watch a lot of college football. And really enjoy watching these prospects. I follow the high school landscape and recruiting closely, too. So itís certainly a hobby.

Itís been a long time since I saw a QB get as little pressure, and throw to so many open receivers, as Haskins in a supposedly good conference in the Big Ten. I was in awe of the job that OSU staff setting Haskins up to succeed. And with only one year under his belt, Iím really not sure if Haskins was that good or if he was the beneficiary of a great system with superior talent...


Unless you are sitting their charting all those games, you're relying on biases/perceptions and the imperfect human memory to draw these conclusions.
as for the charts  
giants#1 : 3/21/2019 6:12 am : link
do you have a comparison of him vs last year's QBs? I'm also interested to see how he fares in Football Outsider's QBASE projections, which absolutely nailed Mayfield as the top QB prospect last year. If you've never seen QBASE it tries to account for the level of competition and teammates each QB faces (bw's main issues) and also favors longer track records (FMIC and others have mentioned this concern).

As for these charts, best # I see is the low interception rate! And with all that talent around him, you'd think he'd rank higher in TDs > 10 yds...
He has played 1 season of college football  
Chip : 3/21/2019 7:20 am : link
with a lot of talent around him and his throws are always with a clean pocket. Caveat emptor
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: This means nothing  
section125 : 3/21/2019 7:34 am : link
In comment 14350719 bw in dc said:
Quote:

But I don't know how to interpret this. Is 94 really a good sample size? How does that compares to whatever benchmarks would be a normal amount - nationally, by conference, vs winning teams, versus losing teams, etc.

So I am skeptical; and really would need to see a more robust analysis and some better definitions.


You are just hung up on the pressure thing. You have lost focus and are dwelling on this.

Look, stop trying to justify the fact that you don't like him by saying he didn't have pressure. It does not work and sounds forced. It is ok to say that you just don't like him for QB of the Giants. If your only dislike is that he did not have a DE in his face every play then that would be silly.
The lack of experience has more credibility.
I will start  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 3/21/2019 8:06 am : link
by admitting my bias: I hate Ohio State. I am disturbed by Urban Meyer. As for Dwayne Haskins, he seems like a good kid. He has ability. But when I watched his pro day tape, too many of his throws were high. By too many, I would guess that 40% of his throws were high, forcing WRs to stretch to their maximum to make the catch and impeding their ability to achieve YAC. That was with no pads and no rush element. I have a problem with that. High throws lead to interceptions. Just ask Eli. I am also pre-disposed to a QB with some mobility. Haskins is too stiff to be mobile. Some people are not bothered by that. I am. It will be interesting to see how he performs at the next level. I just hope it is not for the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: This means nothing  
bw in dc : 3/21/2019 8:31 am : link
In comment 14350795 section125 said:
Quote:


You are just hung up on the pressure thing. You have lost focus and are dwelling on this.

Look, stop trying to justify the fact that you don't like him by saying he didn't have pressure. It does not work and sounds forced. It is ok to say that you just don't like him for QB of the Giants. If your only dislike is that he did not have a DE in his face every play then that would be silly.

The lack of experience has more credibility.


I donít dislike Haskins. I dislike him and every other QB in this draft at #6.

Specifically for Haskins, I have a concern - a legitimate concern - about how he is going to adjust to a faster, more complicated league after one year playing in ClubMed.

Finally, arc started this thread and used pressure as one of his thesis to support Haskins. So I was replying to that.
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arcarsenal : 3/21/2019 9:21 am : link
Wharton has a Twitter thread here that is a long reel of Haskins clips - there are a bunch where he is pressured and still completes a pass or makes a play. Tons of beautiful throws here.

Also a lot of plays from a clean pocket. Plays where he displays a little mobility and ability to evade a free rusher.

A lot of drops by his WR's - crazy, but he could have put up even better numbers than he did if not for that.

You can also see the bad plays, the interceptions/mistakes - albeit, very few of them since he didn't throw many.

It does a pretty good job of encompassing his season. It shows his bad throws in the Purdue game and where he struggled vs. PSU - it's not a total puff reel designed to just make him look good.

See for yourself.
Link - ( New Window )
Why does Haskins "inexperience" have to work against him?  
Chris684 : 3/21/2019 9:28 am : link
Honestly, especially since we know it's Eli's football to begin the year and until it's over (officially or unofficially) this is the perfect spot to take a kid who is oozing talent, has toughness, smarts and football IQ and maybe just needs a little grooming.

I'm so torn on Haskins because I really like the guy, I'm just not ready to commit to a trade up.
The..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/21/2019 9:30 am : link
inexperience doesn't have to work against him, but it has been a pretty consistent predictor in which QB's fail at the next level.

There are some exceptions, but when two QB's of similar rank differ in experience, the one with just a year of playing time has performed worse the vast majority of the time.
Luck was a rare QB prospect  
Jay on the Island : 3/21/2019 9:31 am : link
Prospects with his upside arenít available every year. Trevor Lawrence is the next Luck level QB but that just shows how rare these types of prospects are available.

I am open to drafting Haskins if the Giants feel he has franchise upside. The lack of mobility is overblown. Athletically I would compare him to Big Ben but obviously with a higher character. If people are going to use Haskins lack of experience to criticize then it is only fair to consider that he will improve when pressure as he gains more experience.
That was awful  
Jay on the Island : 3/21/2019 9:32 am : link
Sorry for the grammatical errors I am posting on my iPhone.
FatMan fair enough  
Chris684 : 3/21/2019 9:36 am : link
and if the plan was to hand the keys over to Haskins on draft day, I'd probably be a little bit more concerned.

In all likelihood, he's going to sit, learn and prepare this entire upcoming season which would be a nice boost to his level of experience.
RE: Why does Haskins  
giants#1 : 3/21/2019 9:37 am : link
In comment 14350936 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Honestly, especially since we know it's Eli's football to begin the year and until it's over (officially or unofficially) this is the perfect spot to take a kid who is oozing talent, has toughness, smarts and football IQ and maybe just needs a little grooming.

I'm so torn on Haskins because I really like the guy, I'm just not ready to commit to a trade up.


It doesn't work against him. It's just that history has shown that QBs with a longer track record of college success are easier to project to the NFL.
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arcarsenal : 3/21/2019 9:46 am : link
I really don't want to trade up, either - that's kind of where I grit my teeth.

But at the same time - it's sort of a paradox, because if he IS the real deal, then the trade up is totally worth it anyway and no one would care that we had to do it to get him. That's how we got Eli and many times, that's what you have to do to get your QB. It often comes with the territory.

It would just sting because we have so many holes and need as many of the picks as we can keep.

I'd imagine that the collection of capital we have will be used to move somewhere, though - I'd be very surprised if we just stood pat and drafted 12 players in the slots we have now.
Even NFL personnel people are split on how much a young QB  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/21/2019 9:49 am : link
can benefit from sitting and watching. If you're inexperienced, you're inexperienced. It's very, very hard to simulate live game action. There's no substitute for it.
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arcarsenal : 3/21/2019 9:53 am : link
I always look at that stuff on a per-QB basis - I think some guys have absolutely no reason to sit, but it makes sense for guys with less experience or maybe guys from smaller programs.

For Haskins, if we were to draft him, for instance - I'd be fine with Eli being the starter, and then going to Haskins as soon as things look like they're going south. I think that'd be the sweet spot. Haskins gets PT in year 1, but doesn't have to do it immediately and has a few weeks to acclimate.
I think it makes sense for a pocket passer to sit for a bit  
Zeke's Alibi : 3/21/2019 10:17 am : link
because they can't use their legs like a crutch. Haskins has similar mobility as Darnold and look at what the Jets had to do, overblow an injury so he could sit for a bit and come back.
Haskins shows tremendous pocket awareness.  
Zeke's Alibi : 3/21/2019 10:23 am : link
Maybe that is why he didn't face as much "pressure". I think I'm at the point where I'll be actively disappointed if he isn't the guy.
Thanks for those videos btw.  
Zeke's Alibi : 3/21/2019 10:24 am : link
Great breakdown.
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