Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Report that the Browns do not see the 17th pick as 1st round

Giantimistic : 3/21/2019 8:33 am
NFL.com’s Lance Zierlein said on the network’s “Move the Sticks” podcast that the Browns didn’t place first-round value on the No. 17 pick they dealt as the centerpiece of the package for Beckham due to a dearth of first-round talent in the upcoming NFL draft.

Report: Browns don’t see 1st-round value in traded pick
“I had heard that the Browns considered there to be 15 players that are first-round players in this year’s draft,” Zierlein said. “That sounds about right. About 15 guys who are first-round picks. Analytics is always about quantifying value so, for them, that 17th pick, they considered that a second-round player, generally speaking.”

The article is only interesting for repeating this point. The rest is a crap on Gettleman article that is not worth the read in my opinion. However, this is the most ridiculous rationalization in dealing the pick of it was part of the consideration. Both sides Ofcourse want PR wise to say the got the better end of the deal but this is a bit much. Not sure if this is at the same level of Giants getting two 1st round picks with Peppers spin—which I don’t mind as much as this Cleveland spin. Not sure what analystics they are using but to assume that all 15 teams in front of you will take the 15 players you see as first rounders is absurd. 17 would also mean you wouldn’t have to trade too much to move up into the 12-15 range either.

Does everyone really only think there are 15 first round players in this draft? This is the first I hearrd about it. Also, if true is Gettleman looking to trade up with it, trade down or sit and let someone fall to him?
Link - ( New Window )
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
RE: RE: RE: scanned the article  
CromartiesKid21 : 3/21/2019 9:42 am : link
In comment 14350942 Pascal4554 said:
Quote:
In comment 14350929 CromartiesKid21 said:


Quote:


In comment 14350925 Pascal4554 said:


Quote:


It conveniently forgets to mention that the Panthers played in the Super Bowl under Gettlemen and his firing by the Panthers owner was under suspicious circumstances.



That Panther SB team was basically inherited by Gettleman



Disagree. He inherited some good pieces I'll give you that. Call me crazy but I don't think a team goes 15-1 and plays in a Super Bowl with an incompetent general manager.

I live in Carolina, '15 the only good pick was Daryl Williams as Shaq Thompson and Funchess was very underwhelming. Then in '16 after the SB run fans were furious with selecting bust Vernon Butler at DT in the 1st round as he was clearly a luxury
I live in Charlotte too..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/21/2019 9:46 am : link
and the fans have been more furious that they've brought back Marty Hurney and he's taken that 15-1 and started to run it into the ground.
What Horse Shyte  
Jim Bur(n)t : 3/21/2019 9:48 am : link
The psychological term for it is "Rationalization"... Like advances being rejected by a woman, and u say "She's a pig anyway".

#17 will be a get... Stay put Dave!!!
The Browns are using alternate facts?  
arniefez : 3/21/2019 9:57 am : link
The 17th pick in the 1st round of the draft really isn't a 1st round pick? Makes perfect sense to about 41% of the electorate I guess.

The Giants made a good trade so far. Let's see what they do with the picks they've acquired.
...  
christian : 3/21/2019 10:01 am : link
Maybe the semantics are goofy, but the principle isn't so hard to grasp. If the Browns feel the talent level drops off at around 15 players -- and you have the chance to use the 17th pick as the center piece to acquire a top 5 WR -- you take the sure thing and not hope a guy you like falls.

If the Browns have a functional, analytical front office they do year-over-year analysis, evaluate the talent quality in tiers in the resource pool, and make valuations. If butted up against the average first round pool, 2019 drops at a lower than historical threshold, you should trade out.
LOL, Typically BBI claims  
ZogZerg : 3/21/2019 10:06 am : link
There is "X-1" "stud"/Can't Miss/Pro Bowler/etc. (whatever you want to call it) picks in the draft. And, the Giants draft at X.
RE: RE: RE: RE: scanned the article  
Pascal4554 : 3/21/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14350980 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
In comment 14350942 Pascal4554 said:


Quote:
I live in Carolina, '15 the only good pick was Daryl Williams as Shaq Thompson and Funchess was very underwhelming. Then in '16 after the SB run fans were furious with selecting bust Vernon Butler at DT in the 1st round as he was clearly a luxury


Okay. So he missed a few picks, nobody bats 1,000. Jerry Reese certainly didn't. I think there are some fair criticisms to make of Gettlemen but to portray him as a complete buffoon is inaccurate (which is what the article that the OP linked implied).

Of course, if you use the "inherited" logic you can't blame Gettlemen for the past season because he "inherited" a 3-13 team.

Gettleman's record with the Panthers over four years 40-23-1. Same four year time period for Reese 26-38. I'm willing to give Gettlemen a chance.
If you really want..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/21/2019 10:14 am : link
a barometer on Gettleman - the average Panthers fan would rather have him back than Hurney.

How many Giants fans want Reese back?
this is like when  
Platos : 3/21/2019 10:16 am : link
reese would talk about "rows" of players.

who cares, you got the 17th best crack at picking the top player of this draft...
Every year you hear this  
AcesUp : 3/21/2019 10:17 am : link
That teams only had first round grades on 10-20 of the players, I wouldn't read too much into it. And if they had 15 players with 1st round grades, it doesn't mean multiple round 1 graded players won't be there at 17. The rest of the league isn't following the Browns board.

I think it's a good spot for our needs. 2-3 of the 1st round OTs should be there, Bradbury, Hockenson, possibly every WR available, Burns or Oliver could fall due to other teams scheme fits, the top 2 Clemons DL should be there. It's a good pick for the Giants.
I may be in the minority  
ryanmkeane : 3/21/2019 10:19 am : link
but the #17 pick in a NFL draft is a really really good pick. Typically these first round pick trades are in the high 20s or at the end of the round. We got a really nice pick here who we should consider to be a possible pro bowl talent.
RE: this is like when  
Jim Bur(n)t : 3/21/2019 10:19 am : link
In comment 14351077 Platos said:
Quote:
reese would talk about "rows" of players.

who cares, you got the 17th best crack at picking the top player of this draft...


Oh yes, Reese & his "rows"... Too bad they found out late the whoever set up the room, had the chart upside down.
While extremely unlikely,  
Mike in ramapo college : 3/21/2019 10:32 am : link
for all we know the Giants think this is a 4 or less player draft and wanted capital to move up.

You can spin things in perpetuity and come to any conclusion you want.
RE: If you really want..  
Pascal4554 : 3/21/2019 10:35 am : link
In comment 14351068 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
a barometer on Gettleman - the average Panthers fan would rather have him back than Hurney.

How many Giants fans want Reese back?


Thanks Fatman. With how much Gettleman is criticized around here I was shocked at how good his record was in Carolina.
So by the Browns logic  
RobCarpenter : 3/21/2019 10:50 am : link
The Steelers really got fleeced on the Brown trade by not getting one of the late first round picks from Oakland.

The Browns' need to continue to spin this trade is really odd.
When, if ever, have the top 15 rated players  
Jay in Toronto : 3/21/2019 10:52 am : link
gone 1-15??

Total BS
RE: If you really want..  
Ira : 3/21/2019 10:53 am : link
In comment 14351068 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
a barometer on Gettleman - the average Panthers fan would rather have him back than Hurney.

How many Giants fans want Reese back?


That cover's it succinctly.
btw  
Platos : 3/21/2019 10:57 am : link
the browns have been the posterboys for drafting well the last 10 years right?

FOH Cleveland...
Hedging their bet  
Maximus, Esq. : 3/21/2019 11:04 am : link
No need to make any comment like this if they were so certain they fleeced the Giants.
...  
christian : 3/21/2019 11:07 am : link
Clearly the Browns valued Beckham more highly than what they gave. He's the proven, although flawed commodity. Time, as always, will tell.

But questioning the value of the trade doesn't equate to calling Gettleman a buffoon. There's a small group of purposeful agitators on every topic. The vast majority of criticism I read on here about Gettleman is pointed and fair. Criticizing this trade is fair ground.

Point-of-fact, he's made some good, bad, head scratching, and too-early-to-tell moves.

I personally don't like his approach and I suspect the Giants won't be much better this year. I suspect his approach is critically flawed and will never work.

Whenever I don't like what the Giants do, I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong and this time and the Giants are dynamite.
If they really  
Amtoft : 3/21/2019 11:35 am : link
thought there were 15 players that are top 1st round picks then trading 17 is stupid because I guarantee at least 3-5 of their "alleged" top 15 players would be there at 17.
RE: If they really  
christian : 3/21/2019 11:42 am : link
In comment 14351301 Amtoft said:
Quote:
thought there were 15 players that are top 1st round picks then trading 17 is stupid because I guarantee at least 3-5 of their "alleged" top 15 players would be there at 17.


Or more likely Beckham as a proven commodity is more valuable than the back end of their group of 15 -- and they'd rather take the proven player than the:

1) inherent crapshoot of the draft
2) the risk they don't get a player they grade high

This isn't a controversial perspective for them -- they think it's a shallow draft so trading for an All Pro player makes sense.
RE: So by the Browns logic  
CromartiesKid21 : 3/21/2019 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14351167 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
The Steelers really got fleeced on the Brown trade by not getting one of the late first round picks from Oakland.

The Browns' need to continue to spin this trade is really odd.


Would help Dallas trading their now #24 pick for Amari Cooper look much better
....  
BrettNYG10 : 3/21/2019 3:03 pm : link
This is a weird comment - I think a lot of teams only have 10-15 players with 'first round grades' but not every team has the same 10-15 guys. One of those top 15 guys for the Browns will almost certainly fall to 17.
RE: RE: Maybe the Browns are actually feeling a little uneasy now...  
Gettledogman : 3/21/2019 4:25 pm : link
In comment 14350884 Giantimistic said:
Quote:
In comment 14350880 M.S. said:


Quote:



...that they have one of the NFL's premier Drama Queens at WR.

Why the FU** would they be prattling on about the 17th pick?

Isn't it enough that every sports pundit has given them an A+ in the OBJ trade?

They now need to put an extra layer of icing on their cake about the F-ing 17th pick?

Something doesn't smell right with the Mistake by the Lake.





There could be something to this point. Why the need for more spin. They are now trying to say they gave up very little to get Beckham. It is just strange and funny.


This is curious. All of a sudden they want to devalu the trade -Diva types dont respond well to not being the shiny diamond
RE: RE: If they really  
Amtoft : 3/21/2019 4:30 pm : link
In comment 14351319 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14351301 Amtoft said:


Quote:


thought there were 15 players that are top 1st round picks then trading 17 is stupid because I guarantee at least 3-5 of their "alleged" top 15 players would be there at 17.



Or more likely Beckham as a proven commodity is more valuable than the back end of their group of 15 -- and they'd rather take the proven player than the:

1) inherent crapshoot of the draft
2) the risk they don't get a player they grade high

This isn't a controversial perspective for them -- they think it's a shallow draft so trading for an All Pro player makes sense.


except that isn't what they said. Someone is trying to claim they don't think 17 was a 1st rounder because they only think 15 players are worthy of the first round, but you and I both know that more than one of those 15 players will be there at 17 making in their minds a solid first round pick. Also that wasn't all we got, but you know that. Who is replacing Peppers there for him? Doesn't matter they added yet another 15 mil + WR to their team.
Just like the Peppers is really like getting a “first round pick” BS  
TD : 3/21/2019 4:38 pm : link
Both sides doing spin.
Says the team who drafted Johnny football at #23  
PatersonPlank : 3/21/2019 4:41 pm : link
based on that great decision I can see why they don't place any value on a pick past #15
RE: Just like the Peppers is really like getting a “first round pick” BS  
Amtoft : 3/21/2019 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14352002 TD said:
Quote:
Both sides doing spin.


Would you trade Peppers for a 2nd rounder next year?
The pressure is on...  
bw in dc : 3/21/2019 4:59 pm : link
for Gettleman to nail the pick. That's all I care about.

He made a very good trade. Now he has to execute beyond just acquiring Peppers.
This is literally nonsensical  
adamg : 3/21/2019 5:00 pm : link
What a dumb PR statement.
RE: RE: I would call this a 3 person draft  
BlueLou'sBack : 3/21/2019 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14350933 JohnB said:
Quote:
In comment 14350922 Chip said:


Quote:


Allen, Williams and Bosa. After that the talent level drops off.



Then last year's draft was a 1 person draft (Barkley) and after that, the talent level dropped off.


Actually that was pretty much the consensus last year, in terms of pure talent at his position, Barkley was on a tier by himself. Lots of pundits agreed. Problem was/is how valuable is the position?

That's funny as hell though that they feel a need to send out spin re the trade. Isn't everyone in Cleveland elated?
RE: Just like the Peppers is really like getting a “first round pick” BS  
BlueLou'sBack : 3/21/2019 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14352002 TD said:
Quote:
Both sides doing spin.



Except for the minor point that Peppers actually was a first round pick, yeah... sure.

OK it's all spin, I agree. But some spin spins faster than others.
Stupid Browns  
mrvax : 3/21/2019 7:18 pm : link
LOL! Even if there are 'only' 15 guys worth a first round grade how do you know those 15 will be drafted 1-15? No one slips?
C'mon Browns. Wake the hell up.
Pathetic and Childish  
GeorgeAdams33 : 3/21/2019 7:42 pm : link
The Browns are still the Browns. From the top down they are a cursed and classless organization. When the real Browns became the Ravens the NFL should've closed that book for good. What a crappy town and what a crappy football team. That organization will rot from the head on down. Wait until they fail to have their dream season and wait to see how they mishandle adversity. Their character sucks. Joe Thomas and Kevin Zeitler are gone. Peppers is a Giant. The Giants are building character, chemistry, and culture. The Browns are collecting immature divas who will become cancers when fingers start being pointed in all directions. F#@& the Browns.
Lots of sour grapes here  
Default : 3/21/2019 7:46 pm : link
.
While you make think the Browns sound silly  
Jimmy Googs : 3/21/2019 7:52 pm : link
this could be correct.

Let’s not put the Giants decision making above any team for the near term...
Jay in Toronto  
Marty866b : 3/21/2019 9:48 pm : link
Hi Jay. Very good point. Go ask the Browns if their top 15 players will definitely be picked the first 15 in the draft. I'd like to bet their GM Dorsey that it will never happen. The Giants, will have an opportunity if they chose, to select one of the top 15 on the Browns list.
Hope all is well.
RE: RE: this is like when  
McNally's_Nuts : 3/21/2019 10:22 pm : link
In comment 14351089 Jim Bur(n)t said:
Quote:
In comment 14351077 Platos said:


Quote:


reese would talk about "rows" of players.

who cares, you got the 17th best crack at picking the top player of this draft...



Oh yes, Reese & his "rows"... Too bad they found out late the whoever set up the room, had the chart upside down.


I laughed at this
RE: While you make think the Browns sound silly  
adamg : 3/21/2019 10:29 pm : link
In comment 14352282 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
this could be correct.

Let’s not put the Giants decision making above any team for the near term...


It literally can't be. This is literally nonsense.
How come Adam?  
Jimmy Googs : 3/21/2019 10:41 pm : link
Literally...
Actually  
Pete in VA : 3/22/2019 6:36 am : link
There are 32 picks in the first round. "Only 16 true first rounders" is nonsensical bullshit. If he believes it at all, he's deluding himself to convince himself that the deal is a stroke of genius. How very Trumpian.

GMs who spout this crap could say that there is a hard break in talent between the top 16 and the next 16, but that would be nonsense too. Show me one draft where anything like that has proven to be true.

A GM might say that there are more potential pro-bowl players in one draft versus others, and that might be true to a degree, but I'd be willing to bet that drafts for the most part have very similar results over time. There might be one or two every ten years where there proves over time to be an unusually high or low number of stars or busts, but that can't be shown until 4-5 years after the fact.

Stuff like this annoys the shit out of me. Can you tell?

While we are at it, can we stop using Jerry Reese's dumbass "rows" terminology, which was nothing more than his attempt to make the ranking of prospects seem more complicated than it is. Drafts are vertical, not horizontal. You arrange the prospects in order, and delete them when they are picked. After your own picks, you might rearrange the order a bit because your needs have changed slightly. When your turn comes, you take the highest rated player on the list. This is not theoretical physics, people.

Giants got fleeced  
micky : 3/22/2019 7:12 am : link
😁
RE: Actually  
section125 : 3/22/2019 7:27 am : link
In comment 14352531 Pete in VA said:
Quote:

While we are at it, can we stop using Jerry Reese's dumbass "rows" terminology, which was nothing more than his attempt to make the ranking of prospects seem more complicated than it is. Drafts are vertical, not horizontal. You arrange the prospects in order, and delete them when they are picked. After your own picks, you might rearrange the order a bit because your needs have changed slightly. When your turn comes, you take the highest rated player on the list. This is not theoretical physics, people.


In comment 14352531 Pete in VA said:
Quote:


While we are at it, can we stop using Jerry Reese's dumbass "rows" terminology, which was nothing more than his attempt to make the ranking of prospects seem more complicated than it is. Drafts are vertical, not horizontal. You arrange the prospects in order, and delete them when they are picked. After your own picks, you might rearrange the order a bit because your needs have changed slightly. When your turn comes, you take the highest rated player on the list. This is not theoretical physics, people.


There is nothing wrong with the rows system of ranking players, especially as you get later in the draft. In fact it is probably a lot better for placing true value on players.
Obviously at the top there is some separation - say Bosa vs Allen or Williams vs Gary vs Wilkins, but after the top 6 players, things get closer. So ranking players in groups makes it easier especially when the time between picks drops to 5 minutes.
Probably listing players is more the way your mind works vs other people's. To me it is easier to group similar values than fight other tiny differences in ability.
Sec 125  
Pete in VA : 3/22/2019 7:34 am : link
Fine. So in your list you put a space between #123 and #124, and another space between #133 and #134. Voila, you've created a group of 10 players of approximately equal value.
RE: RE: If they really  
LauderdaleMatty : 3/22/2019 7:41 am : link
In comment 14351319 christian said:
[quote] In comment 14351301 Amtoft said:


Quote:


thought there were 15 players that are top 1st round picks then trading 17 is stupid because I guarantee at least 3-5 of their "alleged" top 15 players would be there at 17.



Or more likely Beckham as a proven commodity is more valuable than the back end of their group of 15 -- and they'd rather take the proven player than the:

1) inherent crapshoot of the draft
2) the risk they don't get a player they grade high

This isn't a controversial perspective for them -- they think it's a shallow draft so trading for an All Pro player makes sense. [/quote

But it’s not a shallow draft by any objective source. Why put that out other than to spin it. They. OBJ and no one is crapping on them for the deal. So one drafted after 15 will be one an all pro star. Just a PR statement.
RE: Sec 125  
section125 : 3/22/2019 7:50 am : link
In comment 14352552 Pete in VA said:
Quote:
Fine. So in your list you put a space between #123 and #124, and another space between #133 and #134. Voila, you've created a group of 10 players of approximately equal value.


Not all minds organize the same way. Just because you like to do it your way does not make it the right way nor does it make it wrong. That is the way your mind organizes and I am not saying that is wrong - it is a personal preference.
In my thinking the rows/groups allows for greater flexibility. You can take similarly rated OL put them in a group alongside DL similarly rated or DBs. Allows for quick reference when on the clock.

It is just a way to organize for ease of reference.
“These go to eleven...”  
trueblueinpw : 3/22/2019 7:57 am : link

Louder amps - ( New Window )
Cleveland  
bc4life : 3/22/2019 7:58 am : link
has always lagged behind the rest of the country in math
RE: RE: Sec 125  
Pete in VA : 3/22/2019 8:07 am : link
In comment 14352558 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14352552 Pete in VA said:


Quote:


Fine. So in your list you put a space between #123 and #124, and another space between #133 and #134. Voila, you've created a group of 10 players of approximately equal value.



Not all minds organize the same way. Just because you like to do it your way does not make it the right way nor does it make it wrong. That is the way your mind organizes and I am not saying that is wrong - it is a personal preference.
In my thinking the rows/groups allows for greater flexibility. You can take similarly rated OL put them in a group alongside DL similarly rated or DBs. Allows for quick reference when on the clock.

It is just a way to organize for ease of reference.


My real issue is not with anything you are saying, but rather with Reese's implication that his row system was adding a layer of deeper analysis, which it did not. I was not a fan of Reese.
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner