...well, let's just assume for the moment that a team has to get to either the second or third pick to snag the Ohio State QB.
At #2 San Fran would be willing to trade down because they have Jimmy Garoppolo (and assuming he'll be OK); at #3 the Jets have Darnold. #1 is not in the discussion since it's assumed the Cards are going Kyler Murray.
The approximate point value of second overall pick: 2,600; third overall pick 2,200.
And here is a list of the teams that may trade up to snag Dwayne Haskins and the approximate draft points they have for Rounds 1, 2 and 3:
Oakland Raiders (3,780) -- 4, 24, 27, 35
New York Giants (3,210) -- 6, 17, 37, 95
Denver Broncos (2,035) -- 10, 41, 71
Cincinnati Bengals (1,970) -- 11, 42, 72
Washington Redskins (1,826) -- 15, 46, 76, 96
Miami Dolphins (1,780) -- 13, 48, 78
Clearly the Raiders and the Giants have accrued enough 2019 draft stock to trade up into the second or third slot. Everyone else would probably have to package a 2020 high pick as well.
And if Oakland wants to stay with Derek Carr (which is no guarantee), then the Giants probably hold destiny in their own hands to snag Dwayne Haskins. That said, I don't think the Jets and Giants want to deal with one another, which means the Giants would have to trade for San Fran's #2. And IMO, the #2 will command more points than the standard chart value of 2,200.
Bottom line: I'm gonna venture a guess that the Giants will trade their 6 and 17 (~2,550 Points) for Dwayne Haskins.
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so they are all-in on Eli.
I don't understand the sensitivity to this phrase.
Really? Could it be because it is uttered by people trying to show there is some organizational mandate to keep him, and since you are the ringleader of that type of ridiculousness that you know exactly why that phrase is intentionally used?
Indeed, in 2018 I am absolutely convinced Mara wanted Eli to be the QB and assembled a team around him that agreed.
So that pro-Eli circle is in place and entrenched. And I totally believe Gettleman actually think Eli is the man to lead this team into the playoffs.
I don't understand the sensitivity to this phrase.
What does that mean exactly?
That he is their QB. Like they are all in on Nate Solder? Or Saquon? or any of the other 52?
Or that they are making moves specifically to prop him up as their focal point? As if they are not making the moves to build the team as they would regardless of the QB.
"All in" is a pretty nebulous phrase with lots of negative insinuation but no real substance.
I know folks have their personal favorites here. And I've discussed my concerns with Haskins. I also tend to trust jtgiants who says they are not going QB.
But to me (again, maybe it is confirmation bias), all the signs point to Haskins. The only thing I think was a little odd yesterday was that everyone was there except for Gettleman (unless I missed him). But there were 7-9 Giants officials (including Gettleman's replacement as GM) there.
That simple, isn’t it buddy?
Seriously, it’s for one fucking year and his salary is done. We may trade or draft to have someone ready to go..We have plenty of money..No matter where we finish next year draft-wise (assuming it’s not first or top 2), there will be many teams who will have more draft capital to move up if they care to, than we do..1 year..Let it go
I'm not so sure this is Eli's last year. How are you? Do you have access to Asshat info you want to relay here?
Would you really be surprised if Eli got an extension? Britt and dep, two of his biggest supporters, tend to this so...
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if by win you make the playoffs and be 1 and done year after year.
Because that's his ceiling.
And what proof can you offer that this is a true statement about a 21 yr old kid who has never played a down in the NFL.
These kinds of statements are just stupid.
Albeit it's the counter to those posts saying that he is going to be something. Neither really has much standing at this point I suppose.
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In comment 14351306 bw in dc said:
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so they are all-in on Eli.
I don't understand the sensitivity to this phrase.
Really? Could it be because it is uttered by people trying to show there is some organizational mandate to keep him, and since you are the ringleader of that type of ridiculousness that you know exactly why that phrase is intentionally used?
Indeed, in 2018 I am absolutely convinced Mara wanted Eli to be the QB and assembled a team around him that agreed.
So that pro-Eli circle is in place and entrenched. And I totally believe Gettleman actually think Eli is the man to lead this team into the playoffs.
I get it. You're convinced. However, there never was any evidence of that. Would you exclude the possibility that you're merely delusional and quite possibly paranoid?
1. Shurmur stated that he values mobility.Not that he requires a super mobile QB, but he values mobility. This is not a strong suit for Haskins.
2. Gettleman stated that he wants to see multiple years as a starting college QB. Haskins (obviously) has just one year.
This, along with what jtgiants has stated, cause me to say "the Giants are not drafting Haskins".
And then there are the gaping holes elsewhere on the team, particularly defense.
At 6, the Giants will take BPA, of course factoring in need. I just cannot see any way Haskins is BPA. I understand then you have to factor in the value of the position, and need too. That boosts Haskins. But I just don't see it. He lacks the mobility and experience that the Giants have explicitly stated they prefer. And nobody is saying Haskins has "greatness" written all over him.
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so they are all-in on Eli.
I don't understand the sensitivity to this phrase.
What does that mean exactly?
"All in" is a pretty nebulous phrase with lots of negative insinuation but no real substance.
It means we are hitching are fortunes - playoff fortunes per Gettleman - to 38 year old QB making a lot of cap money.
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Seriously, it’s for one fucking year and his salary is done. We may trade or draft to have someone ready to go..We have plenty of money..No matter where we finish next year draft-wise (assuming it’s not first or top 2), there will be many teams who will have more draft capital to move up if they care to, than we do..1 year..Let it go
I'm not so sure this is Eli's last year. How are you? Do you have access to Asshat info you want to relay here?
Would you really be surprised if Eli got an extension? Britt and dep, two of his biggest supporters, tend to this so...
I would be shocked. And if it did happen, I would probably move into the bunker with you and share your helmet.
From awhile back I posited that the Giants would need to trade up for Haskins, or to be just as pleased to land Drew Lock at 6. I don't see 2 teams trading above the Giants for both of them.
But until I see reports on the Giants' FO and scouts putting lots more attention to Lock (they were on top of him at the Senior Bowl) my best guess is that they would move up this year if they have to for Haskins. Bear in mind the Oakland rumor for a swap up into the 4 slot.
If the 9ers wouldn't give up the #2 slot for OBJ, likely they have someone targeted at that slot and aren't looking to trade it. The Jets are another story, and I'd bet DG has already spoken with them ... But with 3 "elite" players only (the defenders Q. Williams, Bosa, and Allen) not sure they would bite either.
The Raiders? Who knows what they are doing, or thinking. They already have a gangload of picks, and maybe, like others, look at the 2020 crop and are willing to suck for a year. They get a start over in Vegas soon, and might want to target a QB in coordination with that.
Whatever, throwing shyte against a wall. Thinking the highest they need to move up is that 4 slot.
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In comment 14351306 bw in dc said:
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so they are all-in on Eli.
I don't understand the sensitivity to this phrase.
What does that mean exactly?
"All in" is a pretty nebulous phrase with lots of negative insinuation but no real substance.
It means we are hitching are fortunes - playoff fortunes per Gettleman - to 38 year old QB making a lot of cap money.
Then you're misusing it. They are hitching their fortunes to every single player on the team. again, as people keep saying, for a single year.
I get it. You're convinced. However, there never was any evidence of that. Would you exclude the possibility that you're merely delusional and quite possibly paranoid?
There was certainly circumstantial evidence of that. I've written quite extensively about how those dots are connected.
And as I've said, I totally understand why Mara did it. I am disappointed that he got caught up in that vortex when Eli got benched and succumbed to media and fan pressure, but it's his team and has this direction.
There was certainly circumstantial evidence of that. I've written quite extensively about how those dots are connected.
And as I've said, I totally understand why Mara did it. I am disappointed that he got caught up in that vortex when Eli got benched and succumbed to media and fan pressure, but it's his team and has this direction.
Should read - "...he has set this direction."
Yet I see Mayfield, Allen, Darnold, even Rosen and think. These guys have some tools, could turn out to be pretty good, be excited about their potential were anyone of them Giants.
It s all about expectations. I remember Simms and Eli in their rookie years, they turned out pretty good. Not sure when this mantra that you have to be sure, can’t make a mistake regarding quarterback last began, but if that dominates your philosophy, Eli will be the quarterback until he can’t play at all, maybe some want that.
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I get it. You're convinced. However, there never was any evidence of that. Would you exclude the possibility that you're merely delusional and quite possibly paranoid?
There was certainly circumstantial evidence of that. I've written quite extensively about how those dots are connected.
And as I've said, I totally understand why Mara did it. I am disappointed that he got caught up in that vortex when Eli got benched and succumbed to media and fan pressure, but it's his team and has this direction.
I like the linguistic turning here. You speculated something and constructed reasoning to fit your speculation. And then, your second sentence turns the speculation into a truism and uses it as a jumping off point. You're cunning and cagey. Lots to admire here.
Then you're misusing it. They are hitching their fortunes to every single player on the team. again, as people keep saying, for a single year.
Don't be naive. The QB is the main cog of a football team.
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Then you're misusing it. They are hitching their fortunes to every single player on the team. again, as people keep saying, for a single year.
Don't be naive. The QB is the main cog of a football team.
They have him as the QB. They've not made purposeful moves to specifically build around him or prop him up. There's simply no "all in" there other than they have him penciled in as the starter. That's like saying that all 31 other teams are "all in" on their QB. There's simply no meaning to the phrase.
I'm not so sure this is Eli's last year. How are you? Do you have access to Asshat info you want to relay here?
Would you really be surprised if Eli got an extension? Britt and dep, two of his biggest supporters, tend to this so...
I would be shocked. And if it did happen, I would probably move into the bunker with you and share your helmet.
You'll have to be cleared for admittance, but let's deal with that when the time comes.
I am well stocked in helmets. ;)
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I wold call a move-up more of an act of desperation. Now if it were for Fromm...
Haskins is better than Fromm. You don't throw for nearly 5,000 yards, 50 TD's against 8 ints against the schedule Ohio State has by accident. 1 year be damned, he's a winner.
If college stats meant anything, that might actually be a colorable argument. Too bad they are next to meaningless, as some of you should have learned by citing Davis Webb's college numbers as a reason to why he was as good as anyone in last years draft class.
His numbers could also have been a product of the fact that the his team was significantly more talented than the teams that lined up across from him? Just for a reference point, JT Barrett threw 35tds against 9 ints as the OSU qb. He a good qb?
They have him as the QB. They've not made purposeful moves to specifically build around him or prop him up. There's simply no "all in" there other than they have him penciled in as the starter. That's like saying that all 31 other teams are "all in" on their QB. There's simply no meaning to the phrase.
You're kidding, right? Who plays QB for every team is headline news.
And not all positions are created equal in football. You know that. The value of the QB has a high "WAR" value. The most of any position in the game that determines the outcome.
So it's a helluva message to re-commit to a 38 year old QB with declining physical skills. They are seeing things in Eli I just don't see anymore, especially to believe Eli can lead this team to contend for the playoffs...
Haskins is better than Fromm. You don't throw for nearly 5,000 yards, 50 TD's against 8 ints against the schedule Ohio State has by accident. 1 year be damned, he's a winner.
If college stats meant anything, that might actually be a colorable argument. Too bad they are next to meaningless, as some of you should have learned by citing Davis Webb's college numbers as a reason to why he was as good as anyone in last years draft class.
His numbers could also have been a product of the fact that the his team was significantly more talented than the teams that lined up across from him? Just for a reference point, JT Barrett threw 35tds against 9 ints as the OSU qb. He a good qb?
And Barrett rushed for over 800 yards. I always ask that question and never get the greatest reply...
I think they want someone to trade up in front of them to grab Haskins and push another defender down to them.
I'd rather just go with the next tier of guys (Finley, Stidham, etc.). I don't see a big separation there.
I think some on BBI fell/are falling into a couple of possible traps.
Last year, many (including myself), strongly believed the Giants had to come out of the 2018 NFL Draft with their replacement for Eli. Obviously, despite the drafting of Lauletta (who sadly already seems to be written off by those inside and outside the building), they didn't do that.
Now the reverse seems to have happened, there are those who think the Giants can still wait. Perhaps I'm making the same exact mistake again, but I can't see how the Giants can avoid taking a QB high for the second year in a row. jtgiants thinks the Giants will go this route. He usually knows what is going on. But this is the second year in a row where the Giants will have a shot at the second best QB in the draft. How many chances are they going to have? These opportunities don't come around often.
I said it last night and I'll say it again, what stood out to me yesterday was how chummy Shurmur, Abrams, and Haskins were with each other right out in the open. It was almost as if Haskins was already a Giant.
If the Giants think Haskins is their guy, they will trade up to draft him if they think they are in danger of losing him.
Eric, Remember the Browns owner sitting in the stands with Darnold and his parents last year for an extended amount of time?
I have mixed emotions over it. On the one hand it irks me. But then I stop and remind myself that it being used to make a fool point or troll. There's no point in trying to stop it. It's an empty, foolish phrase.
Gettleman was clear on WFAN Monday when he said he is confident that the Giants can field a solid NFL offense today but have gaping holes on defense. And he repeatedly said you must never draft for need... So, just like last year, despite the desire of the media and fanbase to do desperate and silly things, the Giants will use their early draft picks on best player available and that is likely to be defense.
For the record, I do believe the Giants will come out of the draft with a quarterback but under sensible conditions:
1) If either Murray or Haskins is still there at six and the big three on defense are off the board, AND the Giants rate either of them as high as anyone else on the board, then they should take one of them; my sense though is that guys like Devon White and Montez Sweat will be rated higher.
2) If Cardinals decide to trade Rosen, I would offer this year's third round pick we got from the Browns and perhaps a 3rd/4th pick next year if necessary
3) At seventeen, again, take best player available. My sense is this will again be defense but it could be guys like Metcalf, Hockenson, etc. Lock may slip and be available here and Giants might consider him but again, I doubt it.
4) Some decent quarterbacks might still be available when Jints make their second round pick- guys like Jones/Finley etc... if Giants have them rated high, they might take one. Again, I doubt it... too many flaws to make investment as franchise quarterback and big opportunity cost if guys like Dillard are there....
5) Assuming they still have no quarterback by round four, they might again take a shot at one of the high ceiling, low floor guys like Jackson/Stidham... not sure this makes any more sense than either Webb or Lauletta, but the Jints will no doubt need to fill Lauletta's spot which will be become vacant by September...
6) If still no quarterback, sign Gardner Minshew as an UDFA and take a chance on possible future Drew Brees :) Very unlikely, but zero risk and should become a fan favorite ala Jared Lorenzen...
The best quarterback draft class in a decade is next year.... so there is absolutely no need for desperation or panic. This offense with a vastly improved defense will easily be as good as anyone else in the NFC East in 2019...
Haskins owns a large part of that loss since it was his team and his inability to rally his team to mount anything resembling a response says a lot about his personality and none of that was good.
The Giants will wait and draft him at #6 b/c that's what Ownership wants (Mara and Abrams being there says that).
...your words:
"The best quarterback draft class in a decade is next year.... so there is absolutely no need for desperation or panic. This offense with a vastly improved defense will easily be as good as anyone else in the NFC East in 2019"
I was with you on all of your statements save the last one above. The Giants have the draft capital NOW to secure Haskins (assuming they like him a lot).
But take your last statement to its logical conclusion:
(1) The Giants play well in 2019;
(2) The Giants will not have a premium first round pick in 2020; thus,
(3) The Giants will not have the Draft capital to pick from "the best quarterback draft class in a decade" next year.
Doesn't add up.
It's very possible but the Giants will have to move up to #2 and give up #17.
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And I may be suffering from a severe case of confirmation bias, but Haskins just reeks of NYG to me. It's very easy for me to see him answering questions from the NY media.
It's very possible but the Giants will have to move up to #2 and give up #17.
If they went up to #2, I'd take Bosa or Allen.
...your words:
"The best quarterback draft class in a decade is next year.... so there is absolutely no need for desperation or panic. This offense with a vastly improved defense will easily be as good as anyone else in the NFC East in 2019"
I was with you on all of your statements save the last one above. The Giants have the draft capital NOW to secure Haskins (assuming they like him a lot).
But take your last statement to its logical conclusion:
(1) The Giants play well in 2019;
(2) The Giants will not have a premium first round pick in 2020; thus,
(3) The Giants will not have the Draft capital to pick from "the best quarterback draft class in a decade" next year.
Doesn't add up.
If the Giants play well enough to make a run in the playoffs, meaning Eli had a very good year, he will be extended by two years and there will be less urgency to draft a franchise quarterback next year. He will play every bit as long as Brady or Brees, perhaps longer. We can only hope to be so lucky.
Assuming they are a .500 team and they decide not to extend Eli, which is what many in the media and on this site seem to be suggesting at this point, they will be in the mid to late teens. Assuming they will need to move up to the top of the board from that position, it could cost them as much as their three top picks next year and probably one or more top picks the following year. Not painless, but easily doable - it is what the Eagles and Rams did several years ago to get Wentz and Goff. One or more of the three quarterbacks next year meets Gettleman's HOF thesis - so assuming they each stay healthy in 2019, they will no doubt be worth every bit of that draft capital for this team going forward.
And of course, there is always the chance with injuries etc that the Giants finish amongst the bottom of the league again this year and are drafting in the top five for the third year in a row next year. Which would then land them their guy with very little draft capital required, if any.
Adds up quite well actually. But anyway you look at it, it is vital that the Giants "stock up" with as many "best players available" from this year's draft as possible...
It would be pretty funny (and clever) if the Giants showed all this attention to Dwayne Haskins with the full intention of going defense at #6!
"never draft for need" is a nice platitude, but one look at this roster on the defensive side indicates a whole bunch of needs at every level, and they're certainly going to draft that way. Nothing they did in free agency has set them up for a draft in which they don't have to feel forced to draft to fill a need. They need everything, from safety to defensive line.
Earlier I was sure they would, but that was before one of these two apparently dropped into their laps.