As the smoke is clearing and evaluations are solidifying it is becoming evident who the consensus top players of this draft are.
QBs: Murray and Haskins
Non QB: Q.Will, Allen and Bosa.
There is a more than a slight chance that many teams are aligned with this ranking, making it quite possible that those 2 QBs and those 3 non QB could go in the top 5.
If that is the case the Giants are in a bit of a pickle. For now it becomes , either you have to trade up and give up later draft picks to secure one in your top row or if not pick a guy from a lower tier. Remember the Ogden /Cedric Jones draft?
In the case we don't want to pay the price to trade up, the Giants better be confident they have a guy rated close enough to those top prospects. In other words, a guy perhaps a bit more unpolished, inconsistent and/or a tad higher bust potential but perhaps still has enough talent to have upside similar or equal to the top row of players.
The possible guys on the list:
1.Devin White (though jtgiants made it clear we like him alot but not at 6, which means he is on the second or third tier most likely) May not offer high pass rush potential and isnt overly instinctual which you want out of a LB you pick this high (Maybe have to hope Tampa picks him at 5 letting someone else drop to us)
2.Greedy Williams- some pretty good CBs in this draft but Greedy os the only one that has true shutdown cover corner potential. Man to man coverage that Bettcher loves so he can be creative with his blitz schemes.
3.Sweat- tested out of the gym and had a great Senior Bowl. But the pass rush moves still need development and is out of a smaller school. Though tremendous upside is obvious. Not as much a finished product like Q.Will, Bosa and Allen.
4. Lock- Smaller school QB with multiple OCs . Tremendous arm, tremendous. Better athlete than Haskins. But alot of rawness and inconsistency to his game despite that he started more years than Haskins did. Not as anticipatory and cerebral as Haskins. Upside though is there to be just as good as Haskins or even better (but he has much more to iron out).
5. Burns- excellent, bendy, explosive pass rusher. But smallish frame that he may have maxed out at 249 prior to Combine. Giants usually like these guys bigger in the top 10 if they are going to feature them in the pass rush.
Additional comments: I don't see any OTs with a value high enough demonstrating proven and consistent dominance both in run AND pass on tape to make a selection this high. At #17 sure (or even 10 or below) but not at 6.
Another option of course would be a trade down and pick up more picks (which I believe DG has bever done before).
Likely, Shurmur would be going to see Lock if that were the case.
LOL, friggin Lawrence Phillips screwed it all up.
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In comment 14351341 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14351287 English Alaister said:
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is the perfect LDE for us and my clear #6.
Yes I agree... I mean I have Devin White, Greedy Williams, Jonah Williams, Montez Sweat, etc all ranked so close, but you can find others like them at 17, but you can't find another Ed Oliver.
I think Greedys value transcends the others on the list because of what a shutdown corners value is to a system designed for heavy blitzing from all levels.
except he will never be the pick at #6 or #17 if he fell because Gettleman doesn't draft CBs that high. I also think you can get good CBs at 17, but there isn't another Ed Oliver. Greedy also has some character things I would check out, but he is a super talented CB.
DG hasn't had a DC like Bettcher before. Bettchers ideal system NEEDS great cover corners. DeAndre and Murphy have some good qualities but there pure cover/man to man ability is nowhere near Andraez.
With the Broncos/Bengals pick and #17 they likely will have the same players available from the large glut of talent after the Top 5 anyway
...been thinking about the exact same scenario!!! Two QBs go and the top 3 defensemen go, and we're now sitting at #6!
Ugh.
Gotta take White and get a guy who can run sideline to sideline and cover TE's.....IMO
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In comment 14351341 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14351287 English Alaister said:
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is the perfect LDE for us and my clear #6.
Yes I agree... I mean I have Devin White, Greedy Williams, Jonah Williams, Montez Sweat, etc all ranked so close, but you can find others like them at 17, but you can't find another Ed Oliver.
I think Greedys value transcends the others on the list because of what a shutdown corners value is to a system designed for heavy blitzing from all levels.
except he will never be the pick at #6 or #17 if he fell because Gettleman doesn't draft CBs that high. I also think you can get good CBs at 17, but there isn't another Ed Oliver. Greedy also has some character things I would check out, but he is a super talented CB.
Have to agree, it wont be a CB at 6. That's not what Gettleman does. If they go CB, it will probably be 4th rnd or after
And you know this how?
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In comment 14351243 UConn4523 said:
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about how the blue chippers will be gone right before we pick. Its usually nonsense. And there's always a surprise pick or two in the top 10.
I'm not concerned about this at all.
I have more confidence DG won’t pull a Reese and force a Flowers or Apple pick. We’ll get a very good football player.
I’m holding onto pie in the sky hope QWill drops.
DGs head would explode. He is the ultimate DG guy, so probably some truth to to trade up rumors.
Other than QW being a great prospect and therefore the ultimate guy for most GMs, what makes him "the ultimate DG guy"?
Just more making sh*t up as you go along?
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they'll let the Giants take him and move on about their business.
Your biases tremendously cloud your judgment.
You should have seen him 15 years ago when he was claiming that Tiki Barber wasn't a legitimate NFL feature back.
Even in 1996, something like 4 hall of famers were drafted AFTER the top 4 where the Giants picked 5th in a 4 person draft.
Ray Lewis might have been the best player in that entire draft and he went 26.
Sayings like this "It's a draft with 5 blue chip prospects" are meant to motivate weak teams into trading up due to FOMO.
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In comment 14351359 Pan-handler said:
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In comment 14351341 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14351287 English Alaister said:
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is the perfect LDE for us and my clear #6.
Yes I agree... I mean I have Devin White, Greedy Williams, Jonah Williams, Montez Sweat, etc all ranked so close, but you can find others like them at 17, but you can't find another Ed Oliver.
I think Greedys value transcends the others on the list because of what a shutdown corners value is to a system designed for heavy blitzing from all levels.
except he will never be the pick at #6 or #17 if he fell because Gettleman doesn't draft CBs that high. I also think you can get good CBs at 17, but there isn't another Ed Oliver. Greedy also has some character things I would check out, but he is a super talented CB.
Have to agree, it wont be a CB at 6. That's not what Gettleman does. If they go CB, it will probably be 4th rnd or after
Value to his DC's system could dictate otherwise
Every single team knows the Giants REALLY like Haskins and want him. And none of the other teams seem that excited or interested in him.
We don't even know the Giants "REALLY" like Haskins.
And unless you spend a lot of time reading other team's beat writers, how would you be able to tell whether other teams are excited or not?
Q Williams and if things go away Allen.
By all means keep the 17 and 37. Those are as good as gold this draft .like 3 1s.
I would even add in the Shep if need be you the offer.
Q Williams and if things go away Allen.
By all means keep the 17 and 37. Those are as good as gold this draft .like 3 1s.
I would even add in the Shep if need be you the offer.
There are many times that I'm glad you're not the GM of the team. This one being chief among them.
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In comment 14351438 Jim Bur(n)t said:
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In comment 14351362 ryanmkeane said:
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Gary is going to be the pick
I sure as heck hope not... Taco Charlton 2.0
No.
Gary is not a fit for us... He isn't a 3-4 DE and he isn't a 3-4 Edge player. He would be a horrible pick for us.
Not saying he’d be my first choice, he wouldn’t be, but he’d fit fine as a 3-4 end.
You'll have to forgive me if I don't share your paaaaaaatience for trading away two young, talented receiving threats to move up two spots for a DL in a draft that is incredibly deep in DL. Just be glad I didn't bother to call out your meatball hero post in an eggplant parm thread instead ;)
I am your faaaather, dunk, feel the force, dunk, feel the force.
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In comment 14351448 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14351438 Jim Bur(n)t said:
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In comment 14351362 ryanmkeane said:
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Gary is going to be the pick
I sure as heck hope not... Taco Charlton 2.0
No.
Gary is not a fit for us... He isn't a 3-4 DE and he isn't a 3-4 Edge player. He would be a horrible pick for us.
Not saying he’d be my first choice, he wouldn’t be, but he’d fit fine as a 3-4 end.
I like Gary for a 3-4 DE if that is the case, but he would need to add 20 lbs. Right now he couldn't do it and he is not a edge rusher in a 3-4 in my opinion. Saying that though if you could get him up to 290 ish he could spot out at 3-4 edge rusher in packages because he is a good athlete. Just right now as is... not a fit if you ask me.
Oliver,Q Will,Hill,(Carter/Wynn)
Better pass rush?
Q Williams and if things go away Allen.
By all means keep the 17 and 37. Those are as good as gold this draft .like 3 1s.
I would even add in the Shep if need be you the offer.
Evan Engram averaged 80 yards a game without Beckham. I think Giants were quite encouraged by what they saw. We arent going to further deplete our receiving corps.
That's about as expected.
We need both Murray and Haskins to go before the Giants pick AND some team to take somone other than Bosa, Q Williams or J Allen.
Sweats heart condition scares me. If the above happened, a trade down would be ideal. I’m not sure the value is there to take J Williams, D White, Gary or Oliver.
I agree with this. The drop isn't as bad as the drop after the first 5 in that 1996 class, but there is a drop. I actually think this is really a 3-player elite class: Bosa, Williams and Allen, and Allen is my favorite fit for the Giants 3-4. I still think Williams will be most disruptive playing inside on the 4-3. And Allen is more versatile than Bosa and potentially more upside. I don't see Murray or Haskins in that same level.
Fortunately, the drop off won't be as bad after the top 3 this year and the top 5 in 1996. Also, I can't imagine that this team won't be prepared for the likelihood that their top guys are gone. My fear is if Sweat is gone too. Then it's pretty much Devin White or Rashan Gary. Gary is worth it on potential, but not on production. White is worth it on production and athleticism, but not quite a premium position. I don't see anyone trading up with the Giants unless one of the QBs is available and the Giants don't want him. So the Giants will probably be stuck at 6 without an elite level prospect available. I guess my most realistic hope is Sweat's heart condition checks out and the Bucs don't take him. I'd be a bit disappointed with Gary because he hasn't shown to be a real pass rusher. I'd be fine with White--he'll probably prove to be the heart and soul of a defense for a decade. I would just like to get a legit pass rusher at that spot.
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There are arguably 5 top prospects and the Giants have the 6th pick. Shades of the 1996 draft. We all hoped / assumed someone would take Lawrence Philips and one of the clear top 4 would drop to the Giants at 5th overall. It didn’t happen and Cyclops Cedric Jones was the result.
We need both Murray and Haskins to go before the Giants pick AND some team to take somone other than Bosa, Q Williams or J Allen.
Sweats heart condition scares me. If the above happened, a trade down would be ideal. I’m not sure the value is there to take J Williams, D White, Gary or Oliver.
I agree with this. The drop isn't as bad as the drop after the first 5 in that 1996 class, but there is a drop. I actually think this is really a 3-player elite class: Bosa, Williams and Allen, and Allen is my favorite fit for the Giants 3-4. I still think Williams will be most disruptive playing inside on the 4-3. And Allen is more versatile than Bosa and potentially more upside. I don't see Murray or Haskins in that same level.
Fortunately, the drop off won't be as bad after the top 3 this year and the top 5 in 1996. Also, I can't imagine that this team won't be prepared for the likelihood that their top guys are gone. My fear is if Sweat is gone too. Then it's pretty much Devin White or Rashan Gary. Gary is worth it on potential, but not on production. White is worth it on production and athleticism, but not quite a premium position. I don't see anyone trading up with the Giants unless one of the QBs is available and the Giants don't want him. So the Giants will probably be stuck at 6 without an elite level prospect available. I guess my most realistic hope is Sweat's heart condition checks out and the Bucs don't take him. I'd be a bit disappointed with Gary because he hasn't shown to be a real pass rusher. I'd be fine with White--he'll probably prove to be the heart and soul of a defense for a decade. I would just like to get a legit pass rusher at that spot.
What do you think of Andraez?
Ergo the E.E. suggest.
The OP is a good guy -- good gentlemen and great poster on here but he's all wet on Greedy. And just as crazy - Lock.
Both guys shouldn't sniff a 6th pick. And Lock shouldn't be our 17th pick either.
I think so too. A terrific player like a pure pass rusher and a disrupter fits in any system.
IMO there is sometimes a wrong excuse of trying to pinpoint "value" vs just getting a helluva football player.
I can see Sweat too.
The OP is a good guy -- good gentlemen and great poster on here but he's all wet on Greedy. And just as crazy - Lock.
Both guys shouldn't sniff a 6th pick. And Lock shouldn't be our 17th pick either.
I'd rather have Lock with the 17th pick than Daniel Jones.
If not,
6-allen
17-bush
37- the big DT (Laurence?)
Might make +++ for a real football team.
All that having been said, I'm not looking at players this season so, if it's Ollie at 6 I trust they did homework.
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If you pass on the 2 QB's of Haskins and Murray. I can see Sweat. But Greedy Williams and Lock at 6? No way in hell.
The OP is a good guy -- good gentlemen and great poster on here but he's all wet on Greedy. And just as crazy - Lock.
Both guys shouldn't sniff a 6th pick. And Lock shouldn't be our 17th pick either.
I'd rather have Lock with the 17th pick than Daniel Jones.
Id rather have neither in rd 1. And frankly not a fan in rd 2 either. But rd 1 for either -- no way.
If not,
6-allen
17-bush
37- the big DT (Laurence?)
Might make +++ for a real football team.
All that having been said, I'm not looking at players this season so, if it's Ollie at 6 I trust they did homework.
This thread had started with that their are concerns of picks 1-5 -- all I was saying is that I think Oliver (or Sweat - I didn't include Farrell) are strong gets at 6.
I realize Oliver might be had later but if no QB taken or just Murray taken he might be had at 5. I'm just saying i think he is worth the 6th pick.
I sort of differ on your draft philosophy however if GMEN do NOT take a QB with 6th pick. I'd want them taking two OLINEMEN with their next 2 picks.
Other than the 2 qb's, Oliver or Sweat or maybe Ferrell - and ofc Bosa,QWIll and Allen- if they pass on these guys at 6 --
or take Lock or Jones at 17 -- I think they blundered.
Allen, Bush, + (Laurence or Tillery)
does seem like a much improved team for next season.
There is a possibility that both Q and Oliver are the rare blue goose types, the "barkely touched by the ..." types.
If so....that's a thing that sets your team apart, having both.
Allen,Bush,Ogletree,Carter
Or line up one LB on the TE:
Allen, Hill, Tillery, Tomlinson
Carter, Pepper's.. .....Bush
Gives you a ton of options regarding who covers whom who rushes
.... Tre Lamar, Ogletree, Carter
Allen,Bush,Ogletree,Carter
Or line up one LB on the TE:
Allen, Hill, Tillery, Tomlinson
Carter, Pepper's.. .....Bush
Gives you a ton of options regarding who covers whom who rushes
I prefer this--
6-- Oliver
17 and 37 then go offense take a RT and Center
96-- Take the linebacker Joe Giles Harris
Now I have a front 7 of
Hill, Tomlinson, and Oliver
Golden, Harris, Ogeltree, Carter
ANd in the same breath I got QUALITY OL for Barkley and at worst a OL ready and ABLE in 2020 for the rookie QB. Even if one or two OL fail you can get one in FA and live with 4 out of 5 pretty good OLINEMEN.
Just a hunch ;-)
Whereas with 5,5,5,6,7 you can find excellent center prospects and maybe even a tackle. If you draft 5 and sort out the two during year 1, practice, pte season
Especially if you look for 3 center conversion prospects in the 310-330 lb range each
Whereas with 5,5,5,6,7 you can find excellent center prospects and maybe even a tackle. If you draft 5 and sort out the two during year 1, practice, pte season
Especially if you look for 3 center conversion prospects in the 310-330 lb range each
The price for OLINE got insane this year. That's why I pushed back the ILB in rd 3. But I do love Bush. He would be fine get.
The OP is a good guy -- good gentlemen and great poster on here but he's all wet on Greedy. And just as crazy - Lock.
Both guys shouldn't sniff a 6th pick. And Lock shouldn't be our 17th pick either.
Hey buddy. Yes I do like Andraez. Think he has that shutdown corner ability few CBs have once every 5 years or so. And Bettchers D needs cover CBs to blitz like he wants to.
Lock though I like but bust potential is higher than Haskins or Murray who I like more. Lock at 6? Not if Haskins is on the board. At 17 it would be more palatable. The guy I dont want is Jones.
He fits their prototype for sure. They like the 270 pound plus guys who have some more size to them.
Man I hope if they pick him they are right about him because I'd take Sweat over him 10 times out of 10. So little production from a pass rush standpoint for a guy with that type of talent.
It does greatly seem to be either pass rush or QB at 6.