I'm not much of a college football guru, but in the light following I've been doing w/r/t the draft and the noise about the Giants drafting Haskins at 6, I had some questions maybe some more enlightened on this site could answer.
Is it correct that Haskins has only played 1 or 2 full seasons at OSU? Yes he had a tremendous campaign last year, but I'd be more curious to see him over a couple years - with more tape on him and defenses better able to game plan for him, I'd be very curious to see another campaign.
He came out of Bullis. I went to Bullis. It's a small school, playing relatively smaller other schools (Gtown Prep, Landon, etc). I'm impressed at what he did there, but maybe not as impressed as someone who would have come out of a larger public high school playing known area powerhouses.
This trend of guys coming out of college after limited(ish) experience is growing. By all accounts, he is a great guy who has played well in 2018 and has great attributes and interviews. But has he really had the chance to gain the experience necessary to mature mentally and overcome adversity on the field?
I think he has the potential to be an outstanding NFL player; but is he ready to be a #6 pick overall?
Thoughts?
That’s my point as well. Add in how often there are breaks in the NFL compared to college and I couldn’t be any less concerned about this.
Timeouts, TV timeouts, 15/20 penalties per game, two minute warnings, and 5-10 play reviews per game will give him more breathers than he’ll know what to do with.
Nope. This was not a talking point until yesterday.
When people want to find holes, they'll find them - even if they have to exaggerate them or create them.
I can't recall reading one single evaluation that mentioned his conditioning as a potential problem area or any question regarding his ability to finish games strong.
It's funny - if you try to credit a guy for a good pro day showing, you're greeted with a chorus of "it's a pro day... who cares? Its meaningless and everyone looks good throwing against air.."
But, when we can draw something bad from it.... well, now it means something!
Pro days really don't simulate game environments well at all. Guys throw more than an entire games' worth of passes in about 15 minutes. This doesn't happen on Sundays and this is going to matter even less for a guy like Haskins who will be a traditional dropback . passer.
We all found amusement in Eli's beach body picture from years ago, and none of us cared because we already knew what Eli had accomplished. Haskins not looking like a Greek God is apparently raising the ol' antennae, though.
It is what it is. He's got his concerns for sure, but I can't get myself to believe this is a real one. Wasn't he working out before he threw, too?
They mebtioned during broadcast and the guy said it to nitpick by as his own admission. It's a non issue.
Someone today tried to say that Haskins was "soaked" before he started to throw and was sweating all along.
Total bullsh-t. Haskins's shirt was dry when he started and then sweat starting pouting through - around his neck, his chest, the arms...And that's when he started to grab his hips, bend over, put his arms on his receivers, etc.
Gassed.
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I can't recall a QB looking that physically taxed at his workout.
Someone today tried to say that Haskins was "soaked" before he started to throw and was sweating all along.
Total bullsh-t. Haskins's shirt was dry when he started and then sweat starting pouting through - around his neck, his chest, the arms...And that's when he started to grab his hips, bend over, put his arms on his receivers, etc.
Gassed.
Go watch it. The video posted in yesterday’s thread shows the back of his shirt already wet with sweat. Then he does his 50 throws in 20 minutes, by the end he’s clearly sweating more in the front. Tired? Sure. But he absolutely didn’t just throw yesterday.
But once you pounce on a narrative you don’t let up for anything. So I don’t expect you to agree with me at all.
Once he's got his narrative, he won't let go.
First it was Haskins' "ClubMed" pocket where he never faced a lick of pressure and had 20 seconds to deliver each of his passes, now it's the whole "gassed" out of shape thing where we're now painting this picture like the guy could barely finish the workout and was down on one knee because he couldn't catch his breath.
Go watch it. The video posted in yesterday’s thread shows the back of his shirt already wet with sweat. Then he does his 50 throws in 20 minutes, by the end he’s clearly sweating more in the front. Tired? Sure. But he absolutely didn’t just throw yesterday.
But once you pounce on a narrative you don’t let up for anything. So I don’t expect you to agree with me at all.
I do disagree. But I don't think a major factor. My concerns still center on his actual play at OSU.
For me, it's really a matter of placement. I just don't see Haskins as a top pick.
Haskins being out of shape isn't a narrative. It's the truth, and he's even backed that up himself.
If you want a narrative, implying that conditioning isn't critical for an NFL quarterback is a doozy of a narrative.
If anything, the Pro day performance strengthened my opinion of Haskins in showing the conditioning questions from the combine were overblown. Much like when Darnold threw in the rain last year.
I like the theory posted earlier by bw (I think?) that he let himself gain weight following the season. Didn't he weigh 231 at the combine but said he played at 221? Putting on 9 pounds of flab in a couple of months is much more of a concern to me than sweating at the pro day.
It's still not enough of a concern to drop him off the board though. You have to figure the Giants dieticians will help him get right. Lots of good athletes coming out need to transform their bodies entering the NFL and we know how a strength & conditioning program can help guys.
Also, at his age I also gained a lot of weight quickly. I'd always been fit and then my wife got pregnant and our whole diet was thrown out of wack for a time. Not having ever dealt with extra weight I didn't even realize what was happening to me until the weight was already on. Wouldn't be surprised if Haskins was the same way - didn't take his diet & conditioning seriously because he'd never had to. He'll do much better under the watch and care of the training staff.
Haskins being out of shape isn't a narrative. It's the truth, and he's even backed that up himself.
If you want a narrative, implying that conditioning isn't critical for an NFL quarterback is a doozy of a narrative.
Again, show me someone - anyone who thought this was a problem on Saturdays at any point during the football season.
I'll wait.
Again, show me someone - anyone who thought this was a problem on Saturdays at any point during the football season.
I'll wait.
Well, hard to get tired at the ClubMed Horseshoe. ;)
Looking like he chases dinner with a six pack of Iron City Beer doesn't seem to have impacted Ben Roethlisberger's career.
No one's saying the guy is going to keel over and die on the field, but fatigue can impact footwork (already an issue for him), technique, timing, and accuracy. We're talking about a pocket passer here... If that stuff starts to go in the fourth quarter or in December, it could impact his game dramatically.
I'd be surprised if they pick him.
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In comment 14351920 joeinpa said:
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Many seasons a guy has played in college
Some of you want a ready made can’t miss NFL quarterback and won’t be an advocate of drafting one until that guy is a available, good luck.
For me I'd like to see how he or any QB does when he plays a team for the 2nd time. Once a staff has played against a guy they have a better idea of how to attack him and conversely I'd like to see what adjustments the QB makes as well.
You mean like Michigan? He played them in 2017, see my post above.
Yeah, that's one in his favor. I still would like to see more than just one and should've been clearer in my post and not just limit it to playing one team twice.
That's not a knock on him though and he clearly did well when playing UM the second time, it's just I'd like to see more of him or any QB for that matter playing teams again. I'm a big believer in experience especially at QB and while it's not a deal breaker for me, it's definitely something I'd really like to have when drafting one.
No one's saying the guy is going to keel over and die on the field, but fatigue can impact footwork (already an issue for him), technique, timing, and accuracy. We're talking about a pocket passer here... If that stuff starts to go in the fourth quarter or in December, it could impact his game dramatically.
I'd be surprised if they pick him.
Right, but none of this stuff came up at any point during the season. Literally zero questions regarding his conditioning that I had seen until this became a "thing" yesterday - during a pro day.
If this was a topic during his actual playing time @ OSU, I'd give it more attention. But I really can't find anything from before yesterday that cited it as something anyone was even remotely worried about.
It feels like something being manufactured here by people who just don't want the Giants to draft him more than anything else.
Are you going to hold the same strikes against Tua because he plays for Alabama and they beat up on a lot of inferior competition? It's not Haskins' fault he dominated in the Big 10.
Michigan's defense was legit and Haskins shredded the shit out of them.
Everyone loves Murray and he played in a conference where basically no one even plays defense at all. Mayfield came from the same program... he seemed to do quite well as a rookie.
The competition points seem to only come up when convenient. I don't think he could possibly have done more than 50 TD's and 70%+ in his first year.
Maybe we won't take him. I have no idea what the Giants will do.
I'm good with it if they take him @ 6, but I'm not going to give up on the entire season or throw a fit if they don't.
He self-corrected, but it certainly looked like is crammed for a test to get there.
So maybe it's a one-off moment, and this will be nothing and vanish. But it's worth discussing why one of the seemingly top players in the draft got lazy and lost his focus...
I say this as someone who likes Haskins and wouldn't be disappointed if we got him. As someone else said, if he went back to school and put up another huge year he'd be the #1 overall pick next year and draw comparisons to Brees. So there's upside that comes with the risk and I trust that Gettleman/Shurmur aren't going to force a pick here. That's why it's good that we still have Eli around, but that's another story.
I actually think Murray is the riskier prospect, though his athleticism has more upside I suppose. But he was thoroughly overmatched in that Alabama game. And the Mayfield comp doesn't fully hold up for me because Mayfield started 40 games over 3 years, put up consistent numbers, and didn't rely nearly as much on his legs. He played great on the big stage his last year. And he was still far from a sure thing. Most people thought Darnold was going #1 up until the day of the draft. Murray has a ton of ability but also a ton of risk. More athletic than Mayfield sure. But more athletic very rarely translates meaningfully into being a great QB.
Let’s just stay the course,,,
But as I said before, I don't necessarily dislike Haskins. I have a feeling we aren't picking either of these two but I don't stress over who the Giants pick. I root for the pick and the player as long as they are a Giant or until they prove they don't deserve it.
Let’s just stay the course,,,
Oh geezus will you stop... lol
just my honest opinion
Very similar numbers here, too...
We can also ignore the part where Haskins' football IQ trumps Winston's by a mile, the part where he has a better arm, is more accurate, throws far less picks, and has a much better character.
What historical data shows is that QB's with less than 18 starts, compared to similarly ranked peers perform worse than them the vast majority of the time. They also have a much higher failure rate in the NFL
There have been notable examples who have bucked this trend, but it really should serve as a way to put more scrutiny behind the pick.
It isn't an end-all.be-all - it is just a red flag that needs to be acknowledged
What historical data shows is that QB's with less than 18 starts, compared to similarly ranked peers perform worse than them the vast majority of the time. They also have a much higher failure rate in the NFL
There have been notable examples who have bucked this trend, but it really should serve as a way to put more scrutiny behind the pick.
It isn't an end-all.be-all - it is just a red flag that needs to be acknowledged
I think that's fair. There's certainly more volatility that comes with having a smaller sample size from which to draw analyses and conclusions, so I would expect that the bust risk is increased. What it's not, IMO, is an indicator that a player is more likely to bust, just that the risk that he might is greater, and that's perfectly logical when you think about it:
If a player has only one season of starting experience and it's mediocre, he's not going to get drafted anyway - he'll either go back to school (if he has eligibility remaining) or end up as a UDFA (or maybe a late round pick if his athletic potential might warrant a flyer). In either case, he's unlikely to be on fans' radar as a potential disappointment. He basically has nothing but upside relative to his draft value. But a player who has one great season and is drafted off of that, especially a QB, is likely to be a relatively high draft pick.
High draft picks in general carry with them a higher expectation, so it follows that there is more room along the spectrum where an otherwise solid player might be considered a disappointment relative to draft slot. Players with multiple seasons of experience at the college level give teams more opportunity to draft them in their proper range, so some of that upside/downside volatility is mitigated.
All of which is to say, it's naive to pretend that there isn't SOME additional risk with a player like Haskins or Murray who have less experience and less tape to evaluate. There's absolutely a chance that the one superb season was a flash in the pan. But that's where the rest of the player evaluation model becomes that much more important. How coachable is the player? What's his work ethic and football intellect like? Was his great season the culmination of a development trend that bore fruit when he finally got his opportunity, or is he a fortunate cog in an otherwise successful machine?
Those are incredibly important considerations, and we'll have to trust that if the Giants believe that Haskins (or Murray, or even Quinnen Williams, who also has only one great season of tape but not a QB) is the guy, then they're satisfied internally with their answers to those questions.
Haskins being out of shape isn't a narrative. It's the truth, and he's even backed that up himself.
If you want a narrative, implying that conditioning isn't critical for an NFL quarterback is a doozy of a narrative.
You seem to be completely unaware of the fact that you do the same damn thing that you accuse everyone else of; you grab should of anything that suits your chosen narrative.
You are no different. Get over yourself.
Especially if the QB is coming from a powerhouse where it is often difficult to tell if it is the player or the system (it also applies to small school guys too).
Are there really concerns every year about QB prospects as to if they are well-conditioned?
This almost seems to be a fabricated negative. Maybe even strike the almost part
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If you want a narrative, implying that conditioning isn't critical for an NFL quarterback is a doozy of a narrative.
Are there really concerns every year about QB prospects as to if they are well-conditioned?
This almost seems to be a fabricated negative. Maybe even strike the almost part
It usually doesn't come up because first round considerations at QB are rarely as chubby as Haskins. Actually, quarterback draft prospects in any round are rarely as chubby as he is.
So it begs the question, why did he enter the draft process chubby?
Of course, where GT goes, soon bw will appear.
I even saw a poster this morning say he's a "fat QB"
Weird takes, man.
I even saw a poster this morning say he's a "fat QB"
Weird takes, man.
He was heavy at the combine. He even said as much. It is a worry but you see him working now and clearly getting in shape and it doesn't bother me as much.
Of course, where GT goes, soon bw will appear.
I thought this thread was about concerns around Haskins.
Haskins is very likely and we would be lucky to have him. He is legit. To me Murray and Haskins are the only top QBs in this draft.
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I don't care that much, because we're not drafting him.
Haskins is very likely and we would be lucky to have him. He is legit. To me Murray and Haskins are the only top QBs in this draft.
Based on the chatter we've heard from jtgiants, JonC, and others, I don't see us taking a QB at 6. And if we do, I think Jones is more likely - and to be clear I don't want them to pick Jones either.
It just doesn't make sense if we're committed to Eli this year.
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In comment 14353012 Go Terps said:
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I don't care that much, because we're not drafting him.
Haskins is very likely and we would be lucky to have him. He is legit. To me Murray and Haskins are the only top QBs in this draft.
Based on the chatter we've heard from jtgiants, JonC, and others, I don't see us taking a QB at 6. And if we do, I think Jones is more likely - and to be clear I don't want them to pick Jones either.
It just doesn't make sense if we're committed to Eli this year.
That makes zero sense. DG said he wants to do the KC route of bringing in a QB and having him sit. The fact we aren't extending Eli should show we are going QB early in this draft and I would bet if Haskins is there we take him. I wouldn't be shocked with a trade up.
In fact I will say there is no way we can come out of this draft without a future QB. Next year who is our QB? If they wanted Eli he would be signed longer. That is the Giants way.
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get some examples of this?
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If you want a narrative, implying that conditioning isn't critical for an NFL quarterback is a doozy of a narrative.
Are there really concerns every year about QB prospects as to if they are well-conditioned?
This almost seems to be a fabricated negative. Maybe even strike the almost part
It usually doesn't come up because first round considerations at QB are rarely as chubby as Haskins. Actually, quarterback draft prospects in any round are rarely as chubby as he is.
So it begs the question, why did he enter the draft process chubby?
Here's another QB that people considered chubby at the combine: