Let's take a time machine to next offseason just as an exercise (we can come back to today and argue in a moment).
Let's assume conservatively, just for argument's sake the Giants net 3 starters in this draft, and there aren't any huge surprises to the opening day roster. And the Giants go into next offseason with at most 5 starters who you have a tough decision on; Manning, Shepard, Coleman, Golden, Goodson.
The Giants will also only have 4 starters left on the roster over the age of 30 (Solder, Jenkins, Tate, Bethea) and Zeitler will just be 30.
The Giants will have ~75M in cap space in 2020, and let's say they go wild and cut every starter over 30 (Solder, Jenkins, Tate, Bethea) -- they net out to about 92M.
Going into the 3rd off season of a rebuild, especially considering the roster and contracts Gettleman inherited plus some really questionable decisions he made last off season, that's pretty remarkable.
I think it's fair to to say the plan is a young, cost-controlled foundation -- with the flexibility to extend their own talent or shop in the market place of UFA with fewer needs.
Players Who Don't Make Sense to Me
- Tate - I'm still trying to understand how a guy on the wrong side of 30 is worth 22M+ over two years
- Nate Solder at 32 making 17M in 2020 is a tough pill unless he drastically improves his play in 2019
- Eating 7M on Jenkins this year frees up nearly 30M over the next 2 years, that almost seems to logical
Projected Starters for 2019
Solder*
Hernandez
Halopio
Zeitler*
Draft Pick (RT)
Shepard
Coleman
Tate*
Engram
Barkley
Manning*
Hill
Tomlinson
Draft Pick (DE)
Martin
Goodson
Ogletree
Golden
Jenkins*
Haley
Peppers
Bethea*
Quote:
I highly doubt either Jenkins or Solder will be around after this upcoming season. But even if they are, so what? How much freakin cap space do they need? It’s great to have all that space, but then what? They use it to sign other players that everyone will bitch about overpaying?
The fact remains, Solder and Jenkins aren’t preventing them from doing anything and the nonstop complaining about them being around on a rebuilding team is asinine. Like I said, they are both likely gone after this season anyways, which is probably the smart move if they have replaced them, but they aren’t hindering anything at all about this rebuild like many on here have constantly suggested.
Yes Solder is. WHat you aren;t grasping is that last year for SOlder, Ommemh and the rb you could have gotten TWO quality OL. Now you've traded for a 4th you're OLINE can survive with just 1 subpar OL. Right now teh GMEN have to take an OL in their top 3 picks. If they dont they run a huge risk of sucking at the OLINE yet again. I don't know about Jenkins but Solder did hurt.
And what else you aren't mentioning is that SOlder is old. By the time they get good he'd be useless. ANd I highly doubt Solder won't eb around after this season. They already have one hole at the OLINe and a subpar center. There are issues throughout the league with not enough talent on the OLINe so you think it's the Giants that will be one of the few teams that find the talent?
Further, I highly doubt Solder will be gone after this year. Or are you assuming that however they draft will be a hit?
BB paid Trent Brown 2M, and it cost him a 3rd round pick(and he got a fifth rounder back)......BB got him a month after Solder left.......
And who played better?
Just dressed up with different words and innocuously posted as if it is a question to ask the board about.
Just dressed up with different words and innocuously posted as if it is a question to ask the board about.
That's a weird take. I barely mention Manning because 1) it's being discussed to death on virtually every other thread 2) I framed the question literally as fast-forward to next off season, when Eli Manning isn't under contract 3) I think Gettleman has done a really good job, save for Solder and Tate.
Manning's roster bonus has been paid, he's likely the QB this year. I hope Gettleman drafts his replacement this year, he sits, and is ready to go with a young, cost-controlled roster next year. Would I have preferred a slightly different sequence of events, sure.
I think your extra-large tea leaves might be failing you again amigo.
Of course, I am mostly worried about defense. I am hoping for two impact starters on D in the draft. Obviously, they will have to get a little lucky.
They still need another draft year though to address depth imo.
I'd say is everything falls right the Giants max, max out as an 8-win team.
I suspect the o-line will have some of the normal ramp up problems with effectively 3/5 new starters (I'd count Halopoio as new with only a few starts under his belt) and the first part of the year will be rough again.
I suspect Manning will have about the same type of year -- maybe some natural decline because of age, and over 16 games I don't think Tate, Shepard, and [fill-in-the-blank] is a very formative unit.
I hope Barkley has more ground yards and fewer catches. I'd like to see those touches go downfield, but I suspect Barkley will have similar very impressive stats.
The defensive is really lacking for talent at every level -- they need an infusion of talent at multiple positions. I don't foresee a much better defense.
All things equal, I think it's a 6-win team win everything shakes out.
Just dressed up with different words and innocuously posted as if it is a question to ask the board about.
I agree. There is a loud contingent here that have hated Eli since he was drafted. They had to shut up when he won. Now they are back.
What I'm hoping for is behind a rebuilt line, Eli plays well. The Giants win 9 games and get into the playoffs. DG doesn't see the next guy in the draft so they decide to bring Eli back when they continue to find the next guy. These no plan without getting rid of Eli people heads would explode.
Right now, I sense Jints Central is in "spaghetti mode" - throwing things against the wall to see what sticks...
"Oh, you want Vernon? Great, give me your guard."
"I think we would consider OBJ. What's on your mind?"
Finally, I'm very fascinated if they are going to extend Eli or not. That is the other key piece to the puzzle.
That sounds like a really gratifying approach to fandom.
On the otherhand -- maybe the Giants can continue to craft a young, cheap, roster with a lot of potential and use either the money or draft picks they have to add a quarterback who's younger and potentially raise the level of play when the time and value is right?
Maybe that will build into a prolonged competitive window like the Giants had with peak Manning from 2005-2011?
I suspect that won't make any heads explode, which is probably better for everyone.
You’re wasting your breath on here with that point which I totally agree with
Also, we're a bad team with an old QB. Every single discussion about a plan or a longterm outlook should revolve around that position and player. It's ludicrous to think otherwise. Not everybody that disagrees with you is ignorant. Some people see your side and don't agree.
Also, we're a bad team with an old QB. Every single discussion about a plan or a longterm outlook should revolve around that position and player. It's ludicrous to think otherwise. Not everybody that disagrees with you is ignorant. Some people see your side and don't agree.
I'd agree quarterback has an outsized impact on a team. I don't think it's zero sum; a team can fix the other fundamentals underpinnings and that's a good thing.
A bad team is more than just a bad quarterback essentially. Simply put -- I don't think a good QB was getting the 2018 Giants into contention.
Now -- should the Giants pursue better play at QB? Absolutely. I'd apply the same churn and rigor at QB that Gettleman does across the whole roster.
Whether you are criticizing or defending what they are doing now, realize that you are doing so missing the most critical piece of the puzzle.
Just dressed up with different words and innocuously posted as if it is a question to ask the board about.
I could swear after Beckham was traded you said they had to cut Eli or it would be an indication that there truly was no plan.
Quote:
we would have won 7 or 8 games last year, and as it was with luck of no 64 yard field goals, etc, we might have won 7-8 anyway. They're not as far off as people think.
You’re wasting your breath on here with that point which I totally agree with
Would you agree there were a couple of games where the Giants had the bounces go their way too?
As far as a better line -- would you agree the Giants will benifit from Solder and Hernandez having a year together and better talent in Zeitler -- but still have talent issues at C and RT and will have 3/5 new starters and need time to gel?
In other areas of the team, have the Giants potentially taken a step back at WR, secondary, and d-line?
Whether you are criticizing or defending what they are doing now, realize that you are doing so missing the most critical piece of the puzzle.
I think the ship is sailed with Manning in 2019, a decision I disagreed with. I'm the original Manning hater if you didn't know.
But snapshot right now, the Giants in-point-of-fact do have a very young roster, a lot of cap flexibility, the latitude to cut older players, and a bunch of draft picks.
If the value is there I hope they pick a QB early, if the value isn't there I hope they acquire competition.
I've noted a number of times I'd like the Giants to bring McCarron, and Rosen or a pick into camp to compete.
Whether you are criticizing or defending what they are doing now, realize that you are doing so missing the most critical piece of the puzzle.
Exactly.
The Eli Decision was like waiting for the white smoke at the Vatican signaling that a new pope has been chosen.
Now that that has been decided, now the next two parts need to be sorted out:
-- will we draft a QB in round one?
-- will Eli be extended?
Quote:
talk about plans, it has become code for the idea that if Eli is still here there is no plan.
Just dressed up with different words and innocuously posted as if it is a question to ask the board about.
I could swear after Beckham was traded you said they had to cut Eli or it would be an indication that there truly was no plan.
What I said was that it made no sense to me if Beckham was traded to keep Eli. Honestly, I still feel that way. But I don't profess to state that there isn't a plan, nor do I spend time critiquing the moves as if I have insight that there isn't a plan.
At some point in the past few years, frustration over the team's performance has fooled many posters into believing they have answers and if those answers aren't followed, that the team doesn't have answers.
Then you have some posters who state definitively that they know what the plan is. A mandate to build around Eli.
So might it be intellectually honest to say then the Giants plan isn't finalized until the draft and QB decision plays out and the moves they've made this offseason to get younger and free up resources were wise?
Quote:
In comment 14354344 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
we would have won 7 or 8 games last year, and as it was with luck of no 64 yard field goals, etc, we might have won 7-8 anyway. They're not as far off as people think.
You’re wasting your breath on here with that point which I totally agree with
Would you agree there were a couple of games where the Giants had the bounces go their way too?
As far as a better line -- would you agree the Giants will benifit from Solder and Hernandez having a year together and better talent in Zeitler -- but still have talent issues at C and RT and will have 3/5 new starters and need time to gel?
In other areas of the team, have the Giants potentially taken a step back at WR, secondary, and d-line?
Fixing ORT and C is paramount to me. At that point, Eli should be more effective (for as long as he’s here with us). His strength has always been stepping up into the pocket. When’s the last time he was able to do that with reasonable consistency? 2012? To me, he was one of the best QBs in the league at Playaction ehen BJ and AB were here. A rather solid OL helps that as well..So yes, we need a C (in all probability) and an ORT..Our bookend Gs could easily be one of the best tandems in the NFL, if not the best. TBD..
I think even know with Peppers and Bethea we have, at least on paper, a solid S duo. Jenkins is still one of the better CBs around and if kept, can give us a few more years of solid production, imo. Beal? He’s the wildcard. If he is finally healthy, he could be a player..
We hopefully can fortify the Secondary with this draft and possibly UDFAs..Heaven knows with a healthy stash of 12 picks we can make some inroads.. Sure there are always, “Ifs” to any scenario involvng roster changes, but where no different than most teams there..
Not much to disagree with you on per se, I’m just more optimistic that turnaround is not as far away as you perhaps and others think there is. Again, TBD
Quote:
The question is whether or not he's extended. The Giants are going to bridge their next QB, Gettleman has been clear on that objective. Which lends credence to the idea that they're dialed in on a QB this year and are willing to carry Eli's number. Or they're sandbagging an extension and plan to punt. We don't know yet.
So might it be intellectually honest to say then the Giants plan isn't finalized until the draft and QB decision plays out and the moves they've made this offseason to get younger and free up resources were wise?
Absolutely. If they're Plan A is a QB at the top, every single move they made takes on a different context. To me, all of it makes sense. Why they traded OBJ this year instead of next. Why they immediately stabilized the position with a vet. Why every single move deemed as short term has been done in the pursuit of supporting the QB. All of that makes sense to me and is something I can agree with if the idea is to rebuild and create an environment for a young QB to succeed.
Or they're doing this all for Eli and think they'll be able to easily address QB down the road. They'll extend him if that's the case and there's no reason for them to do that until after the draft.
But anyone that says they know the new plan is kidding themselves. It wouldn't surprise me if he traded up to get one of the top QB's in this draft but it also wouldn't surprise me if he stayed put and just took 'best player available' at pick 6.
Personally I think it usually is best to rebuild the lines first but the exception to that rule is when you have a number two pick is a QB rich draft.
They have no control over picking Haskins at 6. The plan could be to grab Haskins, but they may have to trade up and get him.
But anyone that says they know the new plan is kidding themselves. It wouldn't surprise me if he traded up to get one of the top QB's in this draft but it also wouldn't surprise me if he stayed put and just took 'best player available' at pick 6.
Personally I think it usually is best to rebuild the lines first but the exception to that rule is when you have a number two pick is a QB rich draft.
I disagree that trading JPP was a mistake. He wasn't a fit for their new scheme and his cap number was way too high. The Giants drafted a very good young DE in BJ Hill with the pick they received for JPP and he should be a long term building block for the Giants. Let's hope that Markus Golden performs like he did when he was fully healthy because he will make a huge impact if he does along with Carter and a likely 1st round pick.
DG has stated many times that you build the team through the draft. You win by running the ball. Stopping the run and getting to the qb.
Now lets look at last years draft. Barkley and Hernandez...Run the ball. Hill, Carter and McIntosh....Stop the run and get after the qb. I think he continues this in this years draft by going edge rusher and RT in the first. Unless he feels one of the qb's is the right one. I'll get to this later in the post.
Everyone gets upset when DG says that you can win and rebuild at the same time. They take that as him thinking that you can make a run at a Super Bowl and rebuild at the same time. I don't think that's what he means. He means you can win games and be competitive and still build to a championship level team. I agree with him and also think it's important to win as you build. Winning breads winning. Look back to 1984 and 85. 86 doesn't happen without those years.
Now lets take a look at DG's comments last year on the qb position. His belief is that if take a qb high first and miss that puts your franchise in hell for 5 years. He obviously didn't feel any of the qb's last year was THE guy. He might this year. He might not. Everyone on here looks at the physical traits of the qb's coming out each year. They look at the arm talent, mobility and smarts. All things important. Nobody talks about if they have the ability to make the play in the biggest time in the biggest game. I think the Giant organization have learned that is the most important trait of a qb. Phil Simms had one of the best performances in the Super Bowl. Eli twice took his team down the field on the last possession to win. Hostetler didn't shit the bed and made enough plays to let the running game and defense win. Collins shit the bed and they lost. To me and I think the Giants that's what to look for. Not a qb that's going to win anyone's fantasy league. One that will perform on the biggest stage. If DG feels one of the guys this year is that guy he will take him. If not he will continue to build the team and look again next year. Eli right now is the bridge qb. He serves two purposes. First and most important, he can still win games. Second he is a fan favorite and puts asses in the seats. Remember the NFL is a business first. Mara needs to make his money.
The moving on from Snacks and Apple was a continuation of the plan. When the season went to sh*t it was time to move guys that were not in the long term plan of the team for draft capital. Get what you can get for them and move on.
OBJ.....Why sign him to that contract last season if you are going to move him this season? I don't think they intended to have to trade him this season. Pat Shumur felt he could real him in and his talent is evident. If what I hear is right that he was able to play the last 4 weeks but didn't. See culture above. Time to move on.
They now have 12 picks to continue the rebuild. Last years draft with this years draft and next years draft will form the core of the next great team.
With a good draft class (mostly defense, with a high RT
) plus a weak schedule this team can compete next season. They are not going to win the Super Bowl but they will play games that matter in December.
Quote:
In comment 14354454 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
talk about plans, it has become code for the idea that if Eli is still here there is no plan.
Just dressed up with different words and innocuously posted as if it is a question to ask the board about.
I could swear after Beckham was traded you said they had to cut Eli or it would be an indication that there truly was no plan.
What I said was that it made no sense to me if Beckham was traded to keep Eli. Honestly, I still feel that way. But I don't profess to state that there isn't a plan, nor do I spend time critiquing the moves as if I have insight that there isn't a plan.
At some point in the past few years, frustration over the team's performance has fooled many posters into believing they have answers and if those answers aren't followed, that the team doesn't have answers.
Then you have some posters who state definitively that they know what the plan is. A mandate to build around Eli.
You would have been better off sticking with your original sincere quote.
And stop the presses!...We have fans posting on an internet sports blog here saying they have the answers to fix their favorite team. How shocking!
Don't get fooled by the cookie-cutter wisdom and stately opinions of BBI posters...they are really just everyday fans who watch NFL Ticket each fall.
Of course they are...
In comment 14354185 Chip said:
And stop the presses!...We have fans posting on an internet sports blog here saying they have the answers to fix their favorite team. How shocking!
Don't get fooled by the cookie-cutter wisdom and stately opinions of BBI posters...they are really just everyday fans who watch NFL Ticket each fall.
It's crazy Giants fans express their ideas about the Giants on a Giants message board, right?
I'm making the simple, I think fact based observation the Giants have very few starters going into free agency and very few starters over 30 -- and that it appears Gettleman's plan is to become younger and more cost controlled.
Why that was a trigger to then rile up a conversation about Manning was weird.
I think that poster is completely convinced he's got everyone's thoughts all figured out, and everything is a clandestine pursuit of those preconceptions even when it has nothing to do with it.
DG has stated many times that you build the team through the draft. You win by running the ball. Stopping the run and getting to the qb.
Now lets look at last years draft. Barkley and Hernandez...Run the ball. Hill, Carter and McIntosh....Stop the run and get after the qb. I think he continues this in this years draft by going edge rusher and RT in the first. Unless he feels one of the qb's is the right one. I'll get to this later in the post.
Everyone gets upset when DG says that you can win and rebuild at the same time. They take that as him thinking that you can make a run at a Super Bowl and rebuild at the same time. I don't think that's what he means. He means you can win games and be competitive and still build to a championship level team. I agree with him and also think it's important to win as you build. Winning breads winning. Look back to 1984 and 85. 86 doesn't happen without those years.
Now lets take a look at DG's comments last year on the qb position. His belief is that if take a qb high first and miss that puts your franchise in hell for 5 years. He obviously didn't feel any of the qb's last year was THE guy. He might this year. He might not. Everyone on here looks at the physical traits of the qb's coming out each year. They look at the arm talent, mobility and smarts. All things important. Nobody talks about if they have the ability to make the play in the biggest time in the biggest game. I think the Giant organization have learned that is the most important trait of a qb. Phil Simms had one of the best performances in the Super Bowl. Eli twice took his team down the field on the last possession to win. Hostetler didn't shit the bed and made enough plays to let the running game and defense win. Collins shit the bed and they lost. To me and I think the Giants that's what to look for. Not a qb that's going to win anyone's fantasy league. One that will perform on the biggest stage. If DG feels one of the guys this year is that guy he will take him. If not he will continue to build the team and look again next year. Eli right now is the bridge qb. He serves two purposes. First and most important, he can still win games. Second he is a fan favorite and puts asses in the seats. Remember the NFL is a business first. Mara needs to make his money.
The moving on from Snacks and Apple was a continuation of the plan. When the season went to sh*t it was time to move guys that were not in the long term plan of the team for draft capital. Get what you can get for them and move on.
OBJ.....Why sign him to that contract last season if you are going to move him this season? I don't think they intended to have to trade him this season. Pat Shumur felt he could real him in and his talent is evident. If what I hear is right that he was able to play the last 4 weeks but didn't. See culture above. Time to move on.
They now have 12 picks to continue the rebuild. Last years draft with this years draft and next years draft will form the core of the next great team.
With a good draft class (mostly defense, with a high RT
) plus a weak schedule this team can compete next season. They are not going to win the Super Bowl but they will play games that matter in December.
Somewhere in here is a plan? Seems like a bunch of different events with your rationalization on it. BTW-I really like the search for the holy grail QB approach noted above...that shouldn't take very long at all.
- So, look for more OL help first and foremost. They have already made some moves. I think draft a center high and grab at least 1 OT in the first few rounds. Halapio is unproven, let him win the job in camp if he’s the guy. I don’t think he is. A good line is the #1 priority.
- Defense - We need players, we lost a lot of close games last year. We need to be able to make some stops. Starts upfront, game is won on the line of scrimmage. Our RD1 pick is a defender, likely an edge. Greedy Williams wouldn’t surprise me either if they think he’s the real deal. How’ does this help the offense? It keeps us in games and not force us to score 30+ to win and play from behind all the time.
- QB - Yes, we need one. If one makes sense, pull the trigger and draft one. They could also get one via FA next year (Wilson?). The 2020 class is loaded supposedly. We have a ton of cap room. They can’t/won’t reach, we have options.
Quote:
You would have been better off sticking with your original sincere quote.
And stop the presses!...We have fans posting on an internet sports blog here saying they have the answers to fix their favorite team. How shocking!
Don't get fooled by the cookie-cutter wisdom and stately opinions of BBI posters...they are really just everyday fans who watch NFL Ticket each fall.
It's crazy Giants fans express their ideas about the Giants on a Giants message board, right?
I'm making the simple, I think fact based observation the Giants have very few starters going into free agency and very few starters over 30 -- and that it appears Gettleman's plan is to become younger and more cost controlled.
Why that was a trigger to then rile up a conversation about Manning was weird.
I think that poster is completely convinced he's got everyone's thoughts all figured out, and everything is a clandestine pursuit of those preconceptions even when it has nothing to do with it.
You simply are not posting any of your ideas correctly Christian. Couple of helpful hints:
- If you have ideas, make sure they are aligned to what DG and the Front Office would do.
- Get on board with the moves they make until they reverse course, and then get on board to say that at least the Front Office is willing to reverse course.
- If moves look kind of screwy than use the good/bad locker-room guy default approach to rationalize.
- Make sure when you talk about fixing the team that you don't use the word "restructuring". Go with realigning or recalibrating which are softer and display that you can fix and win at the same time.
- If you want to promote quick optimism, then quote how the playoff teams change every year. If you want to promote longer term plan, then make it 2-3 year window so you can never be second-guessed. If all else fails, just blame Reese and McAdoo and how DG has a big mess to clean up.
- And above all else, be careful with the Eli-thing. I used to think the best approach was to be agnostic. However, you left Eli out of your view of a plan to make it less confrontational, and the only thing that happened was it became confrontational! Maybe next time, just start typing a line about Eli but then cut it off and don't finish the sentence. That way nobody will know what you meant to say. Win-Win.
thoughts?
Quote:
In comment 14354897 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
You would have been better off sticking with your original sincere quote.
And stop the presses!...We have fans posting on an internet sports blog here saying they have the answers to fix their favorite team. How shocking!
Don't get fooled by the cookie-cutter wisdom and stately opinions of BBI posters...they are really just everyday fans who watch NFL Ticket each fall.
It's crazy Giants fans express their ideas about the Giants on a Giants message board, right?
I'm making the simple, I think fact based observation the Giants have very few starters going into free agency and very few starters over 30 -- and that it appears Gettleman's plan is to become younger and more cost controlled.
Why that was a trigger to then rile up a conversation about Manning was weird.
I think that poster is completely convinced he's got everyone's thoughts all figured out, and everything is a clandestine pursuit of those preconceptions even when it has nothing to do with it.
You simply are not posting any of your ideas correctly Christian. Couple of helpful hints:
- If you have ideas, make sure they are aligned to what DG and the Front Office would do.
- Get on board with the moves they make until they reverse course, and then get on board to say that at least the Front Office is willing to reverse course.
- If moves look kind of screwy than use the good/bad locker-room guy default approach to rationalize.
- Make sure when you talk about fixing the team that you don't use the word "restructuring". Go with realigning or recalibrating which are softer and display that you can fix and win at the same time.
- If you want to promote quick optimism, then quote how the playoff teams change every year. If you want to promote longer term plan, then make it 2-3 year window so you can never be second-guessed. If all else fails, just blame Reese and McAdoo and how DG has a big mess to clean up.
- And above all else, be careful with the Eli-thing. I used to think the best approach was to be agnostic. However, you left Eli out of your view of a plan to make it less confrontational, and the only thing that happened was it became confrontational! Maybe next time, just start typing a line about Eli but then cut it off and don't finish the sentence. That way nobody will know what you meant to say. Win-Win.
thoughts?
Some good points Googs. Spot on in terms of what people tend to do.
It seems that there are good (draft) and bad things (some FA deals) that have happened since DG took over. Some things it is too early to tell (OBJ trade). That's normal. He is neither perfect or infallible, but he is not a fool either. An earlier poster said to fix the lines then get a QB, others say to get a QB and then BPA. I think the key is getting the right QB. If the Giants think it is Haskins or Murray or anyone else they should get him. If not, then you continue to build the team The things that would help Eli will also help the next QB. I think the window for a QB is this year and next as that coincides with Eli's contract.
Quote:
last year and look at the moves made I think you can reasonably see what the plan is. He was very adamant about changing the culture last season. The Stuart, Solder and Olgatree moves where about that just as much and in Stuarts case more so than on field production. If you listen to the post season conferences they feel they got that fixed. These guys are bridge players. Probably will not be here when the window is open for a deep run, but will help build to that point.
DG has stated many times that you build the team through the draft. You win by running the ball. Stopping the run and getting to the qb.
Now lets look at last years draft. Barkley and Hernandez...Run the ball. Hill, Carter and McIntosh....Stop the run and get after the qb. I think he continues this in this years draft by going edge rusher and RT in the first. Unless he feels one of the qb's is the right one. I'll get to this later in the post.
Everyone gets upset when DG says that you can win and rebuild at the same time. They take that as him thinking that you can make a run at a Super Bowl and rebuild at the same time. I don't think that's what he means. He means you can win games and be competitive and still build to a championship level team. I agree with him and also think it's important to win as you build. Winning breads winning. Look back to 1984 and 85. 86 doesn't happen without those years.
Now lets take a look at DG's comments last year on the qb position. His belief is that if take a qb high first and miss that puts your franchise in hell for 5 years. He obviously didn't feel any of the qb's last year was THE guy. He might this year. He might not. Everyone on here looks at the physical traits of the qb's coming out each year. They look at the arm talent, mobility and smarts. All things important. Nobody talks about if they have the ability to make the play in the biggest time in the biggest game. I think the Giant organization have learned that is the most important trait of a qb. Phil Simms had one of the best performances in the Super Bowl. Eli twice took his team down the field on the last possession to win. Hostetler didn't shit the bed and made enough plays to let the running game and defense win. Collins shit the bed and they lost. To me and I think the Giants that's what to look for. Not a qb that's going to win anyone's fantasy league. One that will perform on the biggest stage. If DG feels one of the guys this year is that guy he will take him. If not he will continue to build the team and look again next year. Eli right now is the bridge qb. He serves two purposes. First and most important, he can still win games. Second he is a fan favorite and puts asses in the seats. Remember the NFL is a business first. Mara needs to make his money.
The moving on from Snacks and Apple was a continuation of the plan. When the season went to sh*t it was time to move guys that were not in the long term plan of the team for draft capital. Get what you can get for them and move on.
OBJ.....Why sign him to that contract last season if you are going to move him this season? I don't think they intended to have to trade him this season. Pat Shumur felt he could real him in and his talent is evident. If what I hear is right that he was able to play the last 4 weeks but didn't. See culture above. Time to move on.
They now have 12 picks to continue the rebuild. Last years draft with this years draft and next years draft will form the core of the next great team.
With a good draft class (mostly defense, with a high RT
) plus a weak schedule this team can compete next season. They are not going to win the Super Bowl but they will play games that matter in December.
Somewhere in here is a plan? Seems like a bunch of different events with your rationalization on it. BTW-I really like the search for the holy grail QB approach noted above...that shouldn't take very long at all.
Maybe there were too many words for you in that post. I'll make it simple for you.
Chance culture. See vet moves.
Build through draft to be able to run the ball, stop the run and get after the qb. See draft picks.
Find the right qb that is able to play big in big games.
Win some games in the process.
Simple enough for ya?
Somewhere in here is a plan? Seems like a bunch of different events with your rationalization on it. BTW-I really like the search for the holy grail QB approach noted above...that shouldn't take very long at all.
Maybe there were too many words for you in that post. I'll make it simple for you.
Chance culture. See vet moves.
Build through draft to be able to run the ball, stop the run and get after the qb. See draft picks.
Find the right qb that is able to play big in big games.
Win some games in the process.
Simple enough for ya?
- Develop a plan, show some progress and win some games...that will change the culture more than hiding behind the bad deals for vets that have done squat on the field.
- Run the ball...got it Hand of God and Hernandez. Check.
- Stop the run...so got rid of Snacks and watched run defense go to 20th in league.
- Get after QB. So dump JPP and OV, Finished 30th in sacks.
- Find the right QB to play in a big game...yes, any day now...any day.
- Win some games in meanwhile...more harmful than helpful in short term but yes we should at least try.
Sincerely,
simple simon
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I think the key is getting the right QB. If the Giants think it is Haskins or Murray or anyone else they should get him.
I think what you say here is critical. They can't choose a qb with the 17th pick or even rd 2 "because of value." They have to be sure he is"the right QB" that will become a very good QB.
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Somewhere in here is a plan? Seems like a bunch of different events with your rationalization on it. BTW-I really like the search for the holy grail QB approach noted above...that shouldn't take very long at all.
Maybe there were too many words for you in that post. I'll make it simple for you.
Chance culture. See vet moves.
Build through draft to be able to run the ball, stop the run and get after the qb. See draft picks.
Find the right qb that is able to play big in big games.
Win some games in the process.
Simple enough for ya?
- Develop a plan, show some progress and win some games...that will change the culture more than hiding behind the bad deals for vets that have done squat on the field.
- Run the ball...got it Hand of God and Hernandez. Check.
- Stop the run...so got rid of Snacks and watched run defense go to 20th in league.
- Get after QB. So dump JPP and OV, Finished 30th in sacks.
- Find the right QB to play in a big game...yes, any day now...any day.
- Win some games in meanwhile...more harmful than helpful in short term but yes we should at least try.
Sincerely,
simple simon
You do realize that this plan is to build a team that could win in the future right...
Snacks with his bad knees will not be playing football when this team is ready to win. Got some draft capital that will. Three young guys on the dl that will.
Let's see where Solders contract is two years from now. My guess is it will be middle of the road. Plus the vet moves were done to create an environment that the young guys will become pros pros.
You are the simpleton....
You do realize that this plan is to build a team that could win in the future right...
Snacks with his bad knees will not be playing football when this team is ready to win. Got some draft capital that will. Three young guys on the dl that will.
Let's see where Solders contract is two years from now. My guess is it will be middle of the road. Plus the vet moves were done to create an environment that the young guys will become pros pros.
You are the simpleton....
So when will we be ready to win per you?
So Solder's contract will continue to be outpaced by inflation and cap increases? No kidding...teach me more please.
signed
simpleton simon
From a pure business and personnel perspective -- what the Giants are doing is pretty straightforward.
Basically everyone who's had reported behavior issues has been moved.
A number of big contracts have been eliminated and a high percentage of starters are under 30 and under contract beyond this year.
I don't need a name for it -- but it's clear as day what Gettleman has been doing since about October of last year.
It doesn't matter if it moves the needle or not for anyone on here. We could say the same thing about Reese and his prior moves.
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we would have won 7 or 8 games last year, and as it was with luck of no 64 yard field goals, etc, we might have won 7-8 anyway. They're not as far off as people think.
You’re wasting your breath on here with that point which I totally agree with
That said I am hopeful. If we get RT settled and the line stays relatively healthy, I think we will have better year than many predict. Hopeful.
We also might be 3-13 if the breaks don't go our way. Who is the L tackle if Solder is hurt? Barkley gets hurt we might set record for least amount of points scored. 2019 is dicey as fuck. Anyone who says otherwise is crazy. Eli has something left, no problem. He ain't carrying the team no more though, forget about that.
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In comment 14354344 Phil in LA said:
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we would have won 7 or 8 games last year, and as it was with luck of no 64 yard field goals, etc, we might have won 7-8 anyway. They're not as far off as people think.
You’re wasting your breath on here with that point which I totally agree with
True...equally true is that we might have only won 2 games if not for some back up QBs. That's real, you can't say 1 without acknowledging the other.
That said I am hopeful. If we get RT settled and the line stays relatively healthy, I think we will have better year than many predict. Hopeful.
We also might be 3-13 if the breaks don't go our way. Who is the L tackle if Solder is hurt? Barkley gets hurt we might set record for least amount of points scored. 2019 is dicey as fuck. Anyone who says otherwise is crazy. Eli has something left, no problem. He ain't carrying the team no more though, forget about that.
+1
Suppose after Murray is taken the best that is available is actually the quality of "Tanehill." You want that?