Let's take a time machine to next offseason just as an exercise (we can come back to today and argue in a moment).
Let's assume conservatively, just for argument's sake the Giants net 3 starters in this draft, and there aren't any huge surprises to the opening day roster. And the Giants go into next offseason with at most 5 starters who you have a tough decision on; Manning, Shepard, Coleman, Golden, Goodson.
The Giants will also only have 4 starters left on the roster over the age of 30 (Solder, Jenkins, Tate, Bethea) and Zeitler will just be 30.
The Giants will have ~75M in cap space in 2020, and let's say they go wild and cut every starter over 30 (Solder, Jenkins, Tate, Bethea) -- they net out to about 92M.
Going into the 3rd off season of a rebuild, especially considering the roster and contracts Gettleman inherited plus some really questionable decisions he made last off season, that's pretty remarkable.
I think it's fair to to say the plan is a young, cost-controlled foundation -- with the flexibility to extend their own talent or shop in the market place of UFA with fewer needs.
Players Who Don't Make Sense to Me
- Tate - I'm still trying to understand how a guy on the wrong side of 30 is worth 22M+ over two years
- Nate Solder at 32 making 17M in 2020 is a tough pill unless he drastically improves his play in 2019
- Eating 7M on Jenkins this year frees up nearly 30M over the next 2 years, that almost seems to logical
Projected Starters for 2019
Solder*
Hernandez
Halopio
Zeitler*
Draft Pick (RT)
Shepard
Coleman
Tate*
Engram
Barkley
Manning*
Hill
Tomlinson
Draft Pick (DE)
Martin
Goodson
Ogletree
Golden
Jenkins*
Haley
Peppers
Bethea*
The pessimists will correctly lament that management has incorrectly judged/evaluated this team and its prospects for the last seven years. And they fear that they are now trying to have their cake and eat it too.
This is a big year for the direction of the team because will either be sitting here and having the same exact discussion in March 2020 after another 5-11-type season or we will actually see positive steps towards becoming a long-term competitive team again.
If they go BPA up and down, then it really is a case of trying to "have their cake and eating it too" or a supreme vote of confidence in Eli beyond this year.
And it took me a few minutes to figure out who Coleman was.
Man, we need a few late picks to turn into overachieving superstars...
The biggest question over the next 13 month period is who they decide to bet on as the next franchise QB. When they find that guy I suspect they will aggressively go after him, and will use all their other assets to build the roster in support of the next QB to not waste years the way they did with Eli.
The Rams and Saints? I don't see either as unflawed.
the division? Redskins are not measurably better than the Giants anywhere. Cowboys have half their D suspended, and the Eagles are better on paper, but they don't scare me.
Point is there are no elite teams just some good teams and everyone else.
Chiefs, Patriots, Rams, and Saints. And let's not forget the Patriots were "just" 11 - 5 last year.
after that, free for all.
So, the Giants don't need to be elite to compete, just have to be "good enough"
Tate was brought in for several reasons. Stability at the position, leadership in the locker room. He gives flexibility with regards to Shepard. Part of the plan is veterans on short term contracts to plug holes until the young talent on the team pushes these guys off the roster. (Ex: if Beal turns out to be a find then Jenkins is gone next year. )
I think people will be surprised by McIntosh this year. Before his illness, many thought he projected to Second rd. He is a five tech who fits on the line with Hill and Tomlinson. NY got him in the fifth because of his illness.
He’s got a lot of talent. That’s why I would love Allen (if not Haskins) at 6 (or a trade up to get him).
Using “future vision”, if they got Allen, adding Carter, Beal and Peppers you would have 7 young starters of your 11 on defense. That’s how the Jags did it.
Every single team in NFL history that has ever gone through a “rebuild” has had veteran leadership on the team to help with the transition. Not one of these guys on this team in their 30’s has any effect on the cap situation. They will have tons of cap space moving forward. Rebuilding in the NFL doesn’t work like many of you seem to think it does.
Every single team in NFL history that has ever gone through a “rebuild” has had veteran leadership on the team to help with the transition. Not one of these guys on this team in their 30’s has any effect on the cap situation. They will have tons of cap space moving forward. Rebuilding in the NFL doesn’t work like many of you seem to think it does.
Exactly, no one wants to watch a bunch of rookies and undrafted free agents manning the entire roster.
no, we cannot
whats the difference (other than obvious 2 games)?
The key part of your post is the "????". It fits with many decisions that have occurred in the past 36 months...
That is the way to do it. A voice of reason.
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If they get their future QB this year that changes everything. If they don't then....????
The key part of your post is the "????". It fits with many decisions that have occurred in the past 36 months...
Right and you can't discuss "The Plan" without mentioning QB. Getting or not getting one changes the discussion 180 degrees.
Good grief.
Problem with this team is, the Plan seems to be constantly changing.....
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In comment 14354161 BillT said:
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If they get their future QB this year that changes everything. If they don't then....????
The key part of your post is the "????". It fits with many decisions that have occurred in the past 36 months...
Right and you can't discuss "The Plan" without mentioning QB. Getting or not getting one changes the discussion 180 degrees.
Why? The qb will come at the back of the rebuild. The current cba changed the way to build a winner. It used to be draft qb first and let him learn as you built a team around him.
Now it's smarter to build the team first and then get your qb. Then get 5 years of acost controlled qb on a winning team.
If you draft a qb early in a rebuild you waste a couple of those cheap years.
Problem with this team is, the Plan seems to be constantly changing.....
Because the nfl is a business too. They have to keep the people coming to the games too.
And he will also help the new qb by providing a strong running game.
Not a single team has built like this. The Chiefs have been a solid team with a middling QB for what seems like decades. They capitalized on the rest of the NFL sleeping on Mahomes because of an outdated bias against Air Raid QBs. That wasn't their plan, they saw an opportunity, a rare one at that, and struck.
Every other team as built up around the QB. Rams, Eagles and Bears.
Every single team in NFL history that has ever gone through a “rebuild” has had veteran leadership on the team to help with the transition. Not one of these guys on this team in their 30’s has any effect on the cap situation. They will have tons of cap space moving forward. Rebuilding in the NFL doesn’t work like many of you seem to think it does.
You've unsurprisingly missed the entire point of the discussion.
No one is advocating for cutting everyone over 30 -- but if the Giants wanted to next year, it would be easy and cost effective.
The Giants will have very few incumbent starters on the roster over the age of 30 going into the off season next year and they will have very few incumbent starters as free agents.
Gettleman has been very successful in getting the roster younger and more cost-controlled.
LOL - you really bring the funny. At ages 31 & 32 respectively in 2020 Jenkins and Solder combined count 31.7M dollars. If they are both not on the roster the Giants would save 20M+ dollars.
Why? The qb will come at the back of the rebuild. The current cba changed the way to build a winner. It used to be draft qb first and let him learn as you built a team around him.
Now it's smarter to build the team first and then get your qb. Then get 5 years of acost controlled qb on a winning team.
If you draft a qb early in a rebuild you waste a couple of those cheap years.
That's a nice story but I don't think it comports with the realities of acquiring top QB talent in the NFL. If you're out of the top ten picks, the chances of getting a top QB prospect are slim and none. You only get a chance at one of those guys one every 10 years or so if that. Getting lucky and getting a good QB outside of that is even more rare. You can believe what you want but I don't find it convincing nor do I see examples of that in the league.
But let's face it-- anyone that looks at things fairly realizes SOlder and ogeltree were incredibly stupid moves for a rebuilding team.
WHen you rebuild you look for YOUNG players or short term contracts. You don't go and MASSIVelY OVERSPEND and give many years just so you could remain that you suck. ANd for Ogeltree you dont take on that massive contract in future years for an ILB by giving up draft picks just so you can a shitty team.
I think the plan should be build your front 7 on defense, find a QB and get two more OL.
With all the picks you shoudl also be able to select 1 WR, 1 CB and 1 S.
My mistake was that DG never meant this. He meant, "Hey we'll try to win while I gut this roster and purge all the shit in it but don't really expect wins while I do this, but we'll give it out best shot, maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle"
Of course he couldn't say this, but when the Giants fans saw all the money being thrown at Solder, drafting a RB, which seem like win now scenarios. Then trading Apple and Harrison (and trying to trade Collins) and now Beckham, it created a mixed picture.
Giants fans - there is now winning part right now. Just understand this and let the rebuild happen.
Watson, Brees, Brady, Foles, Wilson, Rodgers, Cousins, Carr, Garoppolo, Flacco, and Mahomes are all 10th pick or later, multi-year starters, and opening day starters as of now.
Going to a team with stable management, coaching, and rosters seems to be a better indicator of success than being a top 10 pick.
Why? The qb will come at the back of the rebuild. The current cba changed the way to build a winner. It used to be draft qb first and let him learn as you built a team around him.
Now it's smarter to build the team first and then get your qb. Then get 5 years of acost controlled qb on a winning team.
If you draft a qb early in a rebuild you waste a couple of those cheap years.
You mean on the back end of all the deals you structured and rookie contracts from drafts during the build process?
Nice story if you live in fantasy land and the team you finally built is frozen in time until you find Prince Charming...
Give Eli a strong line and a chance with a run oriented offense.
Establish culture of TEAM and that you will perform.
Get younger and if you can grab a QB you like get him.
Winning is going to be an expectation.
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That people just don’t understand how rebuilding works in the NFL. It’s incredible. “Cut every single player over 30”. Yeah, because that’s how it’s done.
Every single team in NFL history that has ever gone through a “rebuild” has had veteran leadership on the team to help with the transition. Not one of these guys on this team in their 30’s has any effect on the cap situation. They will have tons of cap space moving forward. Rebuilding in the NFL doesn’t work like many of you seem to think it does.
You've unsurprisingly missed the entire point of the discussion.
No one is advocating for cutting everyone over 30 -- but if the Giants wanted to next year, it would be easy and cost effective.
The Giants will have very few incumbent starters on the roster over the age of 30 going into the off season next year and they will have very few incumbent starters as free agents.
Gettleman has been very successful in getting the roster younger and more cost-controlled.
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Not one of these guys on this team in their 30’s has any effect on the cap situation.
LOL - you really bring the funny. At ages 31 & 32 respectively in 2020 Jenkins and Solder combined count 31.7M dollars. If they are both not on the roster the Giants would save 20M+ dollars.
I highly doubt either Jenkins or Solder will be around after this upcoming season. But even if they are, so what? How much freakin cap space do they need? It’s great to have all that space, but then what? They use it to sign other players that everyone will bitch about overpaying?
The fact remains, Solder and Jenkins aren’t preventing them from doing anything and the nonstop complaining about them being around on a rebuilding team is asinine. Like I said, they are both likely gone after this season anyways, which is probably the smart move if they have replaced them, but they aren’t hindering anything at all about this rebuild like many on here have constantly suggested.
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These days is to build the roster first and then do whatever is necessary to get your qb. That is what DG is doing. The qb is not coming this year. He will continue to build the lines and defense. Then when he finds the qb he loves he will spend whatever he needs to to get him. It might be ayear or two before it happens.
Not a single team has built like this. The Chiefs have been a solid team with a middling QB for what seems like decades. They capitalized on the rest of the NFL sleeping on Mahomes because of an outdated bias against Air Raid QBs. That wasn't their plan, they saw an opportunity, a rare one at that, and struck.
Every other team as built up around the QB. Rams, Eagles and Bears.
The chiefs and eagles most certainly did build a solid team first and then added the qb later in the process. They both moved up considerably in the draft to do so. The Eagles from the teens, the Chiefs from the 20's.
The Rams had their rb and ol first and parts of their defense in place too.
The Bears win with defense.
If the Giants say add a starting RT, DE, and a take a quarterback who sits behind Manning for the year, I'd project their ceiling at 6 wins.
My point is the Giants are younger and in better financial shape -- and going into next off season will have plenty of ammo to augment the young roster with smart shopping in UFA. If the Giants decide to trim older guys like Tate, Solder, and Jenkins after this year, even better.
Resources spent on expensive aging players are resources that can't be spent on younger better players.
As just a simple data point: from '18-'20, Nate Solder at ages 30-32 will cost the New York Giants cap 35M.
Trent Brown (who literally replaced Solder) will cost the Pats and the Raiders at ages 25-27 in the same time period ~ 38M and a 4th round draft choice.
From 2019-2020 Jenoris Jenkins could cost the Giants at ages 30-31 29.5M dollars.
Justin Coleman at ages 26-27 will cost the Lions a maximum of 17.9M if he's only the roster for 2 years.
Give Eli a strong line and a chance with a run oriented offense.
Establish culture of TEAM and that you will perform.
Get younger and if you can grab a QB you like get him.
Winning is going to be an expectation.
Ever notice how when Eli is discussed here it s always in the context of. “Give Eli this.....”.
It s never in the context of, “Eli has to help his .....(line) in this example.
The Rams and Bears got their QB, then spent and traded like crazy after the fact. They are the poster children for the modern CBA strategy you are referencing.
At the end of the day, there are multiple ways to build a winner and there's wayyyy more luck involved than anybody wants to admit. But your assertion that "this is the new way teams build" is just flat out wrong.
Give Eli a strong line and a chance with a run oriented offense.
Establish culture of TEAM and that you will perform.
Get younger and if you can grab a QB you like get him. Good post agree with your analysis. Forget getting a consensus here with all these would be know it all GMs. We all get to vent no matter how wrong we might be.
Winning is going to be an expectation.
Give Eli a strong line and a chance with a run oriented offense.
Establish culture of TEAM and that you will perform.
Get younger and if you can grab a QB you like get him.
Winning is going to be an expectation.
What are your expectations for wins this year? Do you believe the Giants have a strong offensive line?
The Rams and Bears got their QB, then spent and traded like crazy after the fact. They are the poster children for the modern CBA strategy you are referencing.
At the end of the day, there are multiple ways to build a winner and there's wayyyy more luck involved than anybody wants to admit. But your assertion that "this is the new way teams build" is just flat out wrong.
How you get there has many paths -- the similarities I see with all of the teams that have turned around lately: dramatic improvement in QB play (either bad to good, or good to great), generally young, and the cap flexibility to strike for a few really good UFAs.
I don't think there is a magic order to it.
The Giants also were pretty lucky to get out of the 49ers and Bears games against backup QBs with victories.
Over 16 games the breaks tend to even out most years, no?
Of course, I am mostly worried about defense. I am hoping for two impact starters on D in the draft. Obviously, they will have to get a little lucky.
They still need another draft year though to address depth imo.