Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Onside kick rules about to change?

Big Rick in FL : 3/24/2019 3:26 pm
Quote:
Tweet from @judybattista: “What are we, the Arena Football League?” — John Mara on the 4th and 15 proposal as option to onside kick. He said he was only no vote on the Competition Committee.


Not sure if I want the rule to change, but it could definitely make things more exciting.
Problem is, a defensive holding flag or PI  
Big Blue '56 : 3/24/2019 3:34 pm : link
which are called all too frequently, will give the 4th and 15 an automatic first down
That is not  
section125 : 3/24/2019 3:37 pm : link
football.

Suppose you are down by 2 to 3 points? Do you get to kick a field goal????
RE: That is not  
DC Gmen Fan : 3/24/2019 3:48 pm : link
In comment 14355211 section125 said:
Quote:
football.

Suppose you are down by 2 to 3 points? Do you get to kick a field goal????


Why would you kick a 70+ yd fg
I assume the 4th and 15 would be from the  
DC Gmen Fan : 3/24/2019 3:49 pm : link
Same kickoff yardline
.  
kelsto811 : 3/24/2019 3:50 pm : link
Quote:
“What are we, the Arena Football League?” — John Mara on the 4th and 15 proposal as option to onside kick. He said he was only no vote on the Competition Committee.
Giants were the only NO vote  
kelsto811 : 3/24/2019 3:51 pm : link
For the change
I hope these clowns did the researh on this and  
ZogZerg : 3/24/2019 3:52 pm : link
compared onside kick recovery percentages to 3rd and 15 first down percentage. Why do I feel like they arbitrarily picked 15 yards?

..  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/24/2019 3:52 pm : link
What is this compulsive need to keep tinkering with the rules of the game?
I wouldn’t mind seeing the extra point go away  
DC Gmen Fan : 3/24/2019 3:57 pm : link
In favor of a 1 or attempt from the 2 and a 2 pt attempt from the 5
RE: RE: That is not  
section125 : 3/24/2019 3:58 pm : link
In comment 14355221 DC Gmen Fan said:
Quote:
In comment 14355211 section125 said:


Quote:


football.

Suppose you are down by 2 to 3 points? Do you get to kick a field goal????



Why would you kick a 70+ yd fg


They never mentioned what yardline on which you get the ball. For some reason I was thinking you got it on the 15 yd line. Looking back, it was a dumb assumption..but I still don't know where the ball is spotted.
RE: RE: RE: That is not  
Big Rick in FL : 3/24/2019 3:59 pm : link
In comment 14355230 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14355221 DC Gmen Fan said:


Quote:


In comment 14355211 section125 said:


Quote:


football.

Suppose you are down by 2 to 3 points? Do you get to kick a field goal????



Why would you kick a 70+ yd fg



They never mentioned what yardline on which you get the ball. For some reason I was thinking you got it on the 15 yd line. Looking back, it was a dumb assumption..but I still don't know where the ball is spotted.


Ball would be spotted at the 35 yard line. So it'd essentially be like an 82 yard FG.
RE: ..  
bigbluescot : 3/24/2019 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14355228 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
What is this compulsive need to keep tinkering with the rules of the game?


In this case it's the side effect of the safety led changes to kickoff making what was an marginal chance (fluctuating between 12%-21% depending on the year) of a successful onside kick absolutely minuscule (7.5% last season).

They're attempting to get it back to the original range. 4th and 15 in college has around 13% chance of success.
Fucking awful if true  
Torrag : 3/24/2019 4:15 pm : link
I'm not a reactionary fan but they're beginning to get me thinking it's time to move on.
I like it.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/24/2019 4:18 pm : link
Does anyone actually enjoy onside kicks, or consider them a vital, integral part of the game's appeal?
They changed rules  
kelsto811 : 3/24/2019 4:23 pm : link
Making the onside kick nearly impossible so I do think they need to fix that, but I definitely don't agree a "4th and 15" is the answer. If they are worried about safety, then do a 5 on 5 onside kick or something so there's less people to worry about being blindsided by.
Why can't these billionaire shitheads leave the game alone?  
guineaT : 3/24/2019 4:25 pm : link
It's just like new money to want to tinker and fuck things up just so they can get their fingers in the pie. They are making a real mess of the game the last few years. Rules changes are supposed to be minor tweaks with the exception of safety priorities.
RE: Fucking awful if true  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/24/2019 4:32 pm : link
Torrag said:
Quote:
I'm not a reactionary fan but they're beginning to get me thinking it's time to move on.
I know a boat you can get on.
RE: They changed rules  
ChaChing : 3/24/2019 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14355242 kelsto811 said:
Quote:
Making the onside kick nearly impossible so I do think they need to fix that, but I definitely don't agree a "4th and 15" is the answer. If they are worried about safety, then do a 5 on 5 onside kick or something so there's less people to worry about being blindsided by.

+1. Couldn't they can't just allow the run up for onsides? It still removes surprise ala Payton / NO in the SB but it's a decent medium. Unless they found more injuries specifically from 10-20yd range contact it would work (I'm not specifically aware this is the case but wouldn't think it's so much more dangerous than an avg play, and much less so than old / regular KO plays)
RE: Giants were the only NO vote  
Diver_Down : 3/24/2019 4:39 pm : link
In comment 14355225 kelsto811 said:
Quote:
For the change


To clarify, Mara (Giants) was the only NO vote from the Competition Committee. The proposals that make it out of committee still have to gain approval from 24 owners to take effect. So there are 8 owners that will have to vote NO at the next stage to keep the onside kick. Mara likely isn't changing his vote at the next stage. Now, it is a matter of Mara convincing 7 other owners to agree to leave it as is.
RE: I like it.  
adamg : 3/24/2019 4:42 pm : link
In comment 14355240 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Does anyone actually enjoy onside kicks, or consider them a vital, integral part of the game's appeal?


I'm with you. This adds drama.
Blogger  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/24/2019 5:01 pm : link
4th-and-15 conversion is very do-able.

Don't like it. It means a team that was fairly beaten up until that point gets YET another chance to pull the game out.

Don't want to be in position to kick an onsides kick? Then beat your opponent.

This is just BS.
the 4th and 15  
uther99 : 3/24/2019 5:03 pm : link
appears to be limited to fourth quarter, when the surprise of an onside kick is far less. I have no problem with it
The guys who propose these types of changes  
ghost718 : 3/24/2019 5:08 pm : link
are they fans of the game?

Sometimes I wonder
Yes they are now the arena league  
arniefez : 3/24/2019 5:16 pm : link
first thing Mara has gotten correct in a long time.
The onside kick is a great play.  
BigBlue in Keys : 3/24/2019 5:21 pm : link
Who doesn't love a specialty trick play.

Don't give me the safety line, it is all about $$. "Drama" at the end of the game like it's a stinking soap opera. Another chance for refs to control the outcome. The NFL would love more last minute comebacks, more viewers turning in and another chance for in game gambling which seems to be the next big thing.

Kicks, returns, field goals, onside kicks are apart of the game. Stop changing the game.
Agree, stop with the damn changes. This one SUCKS.  
Red Dog : 3/24/2019 5:29 pm : link
.
terrible, there will be numerous  
gtt350 : 3/24/2019 5:47 pm : link
trick plays to make a very makeable 15 yards no to mention PI
.  
GiantEgo : 3/24/2019 5:56 pm : link
There is a plan out there to replace all kickoffs with a 4th and 15 choice. This is the first step to getting there. Personally, I think it's a disaster.



Dopey plan to replace kickoffs - ( New Window )
At least pick a distance  
widmerseyebrow : 3/24/2019 6:31 pm : link
Where the probability to convert is the same as an onsides. 15 yards is nothing. I imagine for some teams it would be worth it to go for it every time.
RE: Giants were the only NO vote  
lecky : 3/24/2019 6:40 pm : link
In comment 14355225 kelsto811 said:
Quote:
For the change


Because for the last five years the Giants couldnt stop anyone on 3rd and 15 and this is basically the same thing
.  
Banks : 3/24/2019 6:54 pm : link
Schiano proposed this almost a decade ago. The numbers in college at the time was that 4th and 15 had a much lower success rate. The AAF has this rule, but I've missed most of the season unfortunately
RE: .  
lecky : 3/24/2019 7:08 pm : link
In comment 14355403 Banks said:
Quote:
Schiano proposed this almost a decade ago. The numbers in college at the time was that 4th and 15 had a much lower success rate. The AAF has this rule, but I've missed most of the season unfortunately


I would take my chances of a 4th and 15 over an onside kick anytime. Especially if I have Tom Brady
RE: At least pick a distance  
eclipz928 : 3/24/2019 7:11 pm : link
In comment 14355369 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
Where the probability to convert is the same as an onsides. 15 yards is nothing. I imagine for some teams it would be worth it to go for it every time.
Couldn't find a more up to date figure, but in 2014 the conversion rate of a 4th and 15 was about 18% outside of the 20 yard line. Prior to the rule changes for the kickoffs imposed last year that was actually a lower probability of success than an onside kick.
I dont even like the onsides kick  
twostepgiants : 3/24/2019 7:17 pm : link
I think its a get out of jail lottery ticket. I think it should judt count as downing the ball.
I’m thinking Bruce Arians came up with this idea ...  
Spider56 : 3/24/2019 8:17 pm : link
Dumb dumb dumb
NFL leadership is garbage  
Sneakers O'toole : 3/24/2019 8:31 pm : link
The past decade has been a shitshow. Ruining the sport. I dread this time of year now.
RE: Blogger  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/24/2019 9:35 pm : link
Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
4th-and-15 conversion is very do-able.

Don't like it. It means a team that was fairly beaten up until that point gets YET another chance to pull the game out.

Don't want to be in position to kick an onsides kick? Then beat your opponent.
Don’t want to be in a position to be beaten by a few plays at the end of the game? Put your opponent away. Anyway, if fourth and fifteen is too easy, make it fourth and twenty.

I just don’t see this as a big deal. The play they are trying to phase out isn’t much of a test of football skill.
RE: RE: Blogger  
Diver_Down : 3/24/2019 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14355586 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Eric from BBI said:

Quote:


4th-and-15 conversion is very do-able.

Don't like it. It means a team that was fairly beaten up until that point gets YET another chance to pull the game out.

Don't want to be in position to kick an onsides kick? Then beat your opponent.

Don’t want to be in a position to be beaten by a few plays at the end of the game? Put your opponent away. Anyway, if fourth and fifteen is too easy, make it fourth and twenty.

I just don’t see this as a big deal. The play they are trying to phase out isn’t much of a test of football skill.


Unless you have Odell making business decisions and pulling up like Cam in the Superbowl...
what is...  
FranchiseQB : 3/24/2019 11:45 pm : link
... the success rate of 4th and 15?

I think you're gonna see this a lot more than any onside kick if they pass it. I bet you'll see some teams do this at least once a week.
As two people alluded  
bhill410 : 3/25/2019 7:55 am : link
To. This change isn’t safety related, it’s a result of the safety change last year of limiting amount of players on one side. This helped make the kick off safer but really hurt any chances of on side kicks. Accordingly they wanted to try and have a play that is similar likelihood as before the kick off change. 4th and 15 is actually slightly less likely than the previous on side kicks but there are probably a variety of factors in play that could skew the data there.
RE: .  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 3/25/2019 8:40 am : link
In comment 14355403 Banks said:
Quote:
Schiano proposed this almost a decade ago. The numbers in college at the time was that 4th and 15 had a much lower success rate. The AAF has this rule, but I've missed most of the season unfortunately


I believe the AAF rule is 4th and 12. IIRC, it is from your own 28.
RE: RE: Blogger  
christian : 3/25/2019 8:54 am : link
In comment 14355586 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Eric from BBI said:

Quote:


4th-and-15 conversion is very do-able.

Don't like it. It means a team that was fairly beaten up until that point gets YET another chance to pull the game out.

Don't want to be in position to kick an onsides kick? Then beat your opponent.

Don’t want to be in a position to be beaten by a few plays at the end of the game? Put your opponent away. Anyway, if fourth and fifteen is too easy, make it fourth and twenty.

I just don’t see this as a big deal. The play they are trying to phase out isn’t much of a test of football skill.


I'd think being able to advance the ball or score on the change of possession is the biggest change.

There are then the automatic first downs and spot penalties.

And it's not really a 4th down, it's s timed single play. The team is off the field, with the chance of a TV time out between the extra point and the play.
There’s nothing special about the 35 yard line.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/25/2019 11:40 am : link
How about fourth and fifteen from the 25, with no automatic first down for a five-yard penalty, unless it’s flagrant? They can tinker until the degree of difficulty and likelihood of scoring come out right.

The reason I like the general idea is that the leading team’s defense gets to seal the win, against the trailing team’s offense. That sits better with me than the “hands” team trying to field a random bounce. Not a big thing either way, but I do think it’s an improvement.

Diver_Down: Not excusing Beckham, but that play was more on Riley than Odell. CR totally whiffed on the backup TE who recovered for the Bears.

RE: RE: Giants were the only NO vote  
Diver_Down : 3/26/2019 3:28 pm : link
In comment 14355263 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14355225 kelsto811 said:


Quote:


For the change



To clarify, Mara (Giants) was the only NO vote from the Competition Committee. The proposals that make it out of committee still have to gain approval from 24 owners to take effect. So there are 8 owners that will have to vote NO at the next stage to keep the onside kick. Mara likely isn't changing his vote at the next stage. Now, it is a matter of Mara convincing 7 other owners to agree to leave it as is.


Apparently, Mara still holds enough influence as the 4th and 15 measure did not gain approval from the owners.
Change to Onside Kick? Not so fast... - ( New Window )
I'd rather just see them tinker with the onsides kick format  
jcn56 : 3/26/2019 3:34 pm : link
.
Interesting, I wonder how often the committee so strongly approves  
Mad Mike : 3/26/2019 3:43 pm : link
a change, but the overall group votes it down.
Back to the Corner