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Dwayne Haskins vs Jake Fromm....

sxdxca : 3/24/2019 7:05 pm
I've shown in the past, when Jake Fromm goes up against the same defenses that the other top college QB's have, he outperforms on average every single one of them.

Something that I did not share, at that time, is that he truly shines when he is under pressure, posting a remarkable 99.6 QB Rating when being pressured.

Now how about Dwayne Haskins?

I know many of you love Haskins, and I would agree with you that he has a good arm. I also do think he may "become" a good QB in time, especially at the NFL level.

However a word of caution I feel is in order...

Here are his numbers, about his offensive line keeping him clean in the pocket, after 6 games.

""Haskins has been kept clean from pressure on 79.7% of his drop back attempts Ė the most in the Big Ten.""

""He sees a significant drop in passer rating from that 147.2 mark all the way down to 46.9 when pressured, seeing the biggest drop off in passer rating from a clean pocket to under pressure.""

So what the article is saying, is through 6 games he had the cleanest pocket in the big ten.

And a drop off of over 100 points when being pressured is massive. This is the biggest jump of any Big Ten quarterback.

Once again, I'm not for or against Haskins, but my question to those who are, do these numbers concern you at all?

And secondly, why would you not wait another year and take a clearly superior QB in Fromm who thrives under pressure, and has some mobility as well?

Hopefully these numbers should help to bring some balance to the force, when your looking for your next Franchise QB...
Fromm under pressure - ( New Window )
Here is the link on Haskins....  
sxdxca : 3/24/2019 7:06 pm : link
Haskins link through 6 games.
Haskins under pressure - ( New Window )
FWIW, Fromm seemed to disappear  
section125 : 3/24/2019 7:12 pm : link
in the second half of Championship game in 2018 and did so against Alabama this season.

I like Fromm, but he sort of came up short last year and this year when it mattered.
Great idea  
UberAlias : 3/24/2019 7:14 pm : link
Wait a year and take Fromm. Because, as we all know, we can simply draft anyone we want. Too bad they didnít realize Luck was going to be good, they could have just drafted him if they did.
This is inaccurate.  
Strahan91 : 3/24/2019 7:17 pm : link
Haskinsí passer rating when pressured was 87.6 which sort of makes your point moot.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Great idea  
GFAN52 : 3/24/2019 7:20 pm : link
In comment 14355424 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Wait a year and take Fromm. Because, as we all know, we can simply draft anyone we want. Too bad they didnít realize Luck was going to be good, they could have just drafted him if they did.


I guess everyone assumes we'll be drafting at #6 or higher to have a chance at drafting the 2020 QBs. That's not a risk I'm taking unless we have extra 2020 picks to move up.
Thing I loved about Fromm  
ryanmkeane : 3/24/2019 7:20 pm : link
was that his completion percentage went up 5% and had 6 more TD and 1 less INT his sophomore year than freshman year. A lot of improvement.
Fromm is the real deal  
Jay on the Island : 3/24/2019 7:22 pm : link
I like him better than any QB in the 2018, 2019, or 2020 drafts. The only prospect I like more than him is Trevor Lawrence.
RE: RE: Great idea  
UberAlias : 3/24/2019 7:23 pm : link
In comment 14355430 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 14355424 UberAlias said:


Quote:


Wait a year and take Fromm. Because, as we all know, we can simply draft anyone we want. Too bad they didnít realize Luck was going to be good, they could have just drafted him if they did.



I guess everyone assumes we'll be drafting at #6 or higher to have a chance at drafting the 2020 QBs. That's not a risk I'm taking unless we have extra 2020 picks to move up.
Thatís a bad assumption, and even then, not good enough. If these QBs are so great theyíre going 1,2,3. I can tell you NYG has no plans to tank it.
The biggest chip NYG had to potentially move up  
UberAlias : 3/24/2019 7:26 pm : link
Was already cashed in this year.
hey dude  
Joey in VA : 3/24/2019 7:27 pm : link
You were the one calling Davis Webb the next great QB, and he was just supplanted as a backup on the Jets. So again, you have ZERO credibility when it comes to this game, so don't waste your time or ours with your idiotic shit.
If people are going to use Haskins inexperience to knock him  
Jay on the Island : 3/24/2019 7:28 pm : link
Then it is only fair to consider it when looking at some of his weaknesses.
RE: Great idea  
FranchiseQB : 3/24/2019 7:31 pm : link
In comment 14355424 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Wait a year and take Fromm. Because, as we all know, we can simply draft anyone we want. Too bad they didnít realize Luck was going to be good, they could have just drafted him if they did.


I think it is fine to compare players but I agree with you that these posts seem to imply we will always have our pick of thee litter of QBs from now until eternity.

I think any team that has lacks a QB solution (as I think we do) needs to take a solid successor at QB if one is available. Either DG has the balls to make this decision or he should get the hell out of the way, cause counting on getting the one guy you like in two years is not a sound strategy.
RE: If people are going to use Haskins inexperience to knock him  
UberAlias : 3/24/2019 7:34 pm : link
In comment 14355443 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Then it is only fair to consider it when looking at some of his weaknesses.
Iím not really a Haskins guy, but in my mind itís more of a plus than minus. Yes, smaller sample size. But when you have a head coach with experience in developing QBs, thereís room to improve on the inexperience.
If Haskins has a sophomore year  
Dave on the UWS : 3/24/2019 7:35 pm : link
similar to his first how would he rank then against someone like Fromm? Thatís a question to ask.
RE: If Haskins has a sophomore year  
Jay on the Island : 3/24/2019 7:39 pm : link
In comment 14355463 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
similar to his first how would he rank then against someone like Fromm? Thatís a question to ask.

I would still have him behind Fromm as long as Fromm continued to play well but I would have Haskins ahead of Herbert, Eason, etc.
Fromm is what...  
bw in dc : 3/24/2019 7:41 pm : link
is a much better version of Daniel Jones.

But I also struggle to find enough plus parts of his game so far.
RE: Fromm is what...  
Jay on the Island : 3/24/2019 7:44 pm : link
In comment 14355474 bw in dc said:
Quote:
is a much better version of Daniel Jones.

But I also struggle to find enough plus parts of his game so far.

I think a better comp for Fromm is Carson Wentz.
Wentz is a better athlete...  
bw in dc : 3/24/2019 7:48 pm : link
and considerably bigger.
RE: Wentz is a better athlete...  
Jay on the Island : 3/24/2019 8:07 pm : link
In comment 14355482 bw in dc said:
Quote:
and considerably bigger.

He's bigger and a better athlete but I see alot of similarities with them in the pocket. Fromm is a better athlete than some realize. He's not exactly Kyler Murray either as he stands at 6'2.
RE: Here is the link on Haskins....  
Brian in Hoboken : 3/24/2019 8:17 pm : link
In comment 14355412 sxdxca said:
Quote:
Haskins link through 6 games. Haskins under pressure - ( New Window )

So you took the first 6 starts of his college career, how about the last 8 games this year? I donít know if the numbers are different, but everything Iíve seen/read/heard seems to indicate he drastically improved in most areas as the season went on. Which has to be considered a huge plus when talking about a guy who only has 14 total starts.
RE: RE: Wentz is a better athlete...  
bw in dc : 3/24/2019 8:49 pm : link
In comment 14355493 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14355482 bw in dc said:


Quote:


and considerably bigger.


He's bigger and a better athlete but I see alot of similarities with them in the pocket. Fromm is a better athlete than some realize. He's not exactly Kyler Murray either as he stands at 6'2.


Yes, Fromm is mobile. He's a much better athlete than, say, Eli.

As I'm sure you know, he was an outstanding baseball player, too. I was watching the LSU-GA baseball game today and his name came up. The broadcasters were asking a Georgia pitcher if the anyone on the team tries to get Fromm to play. Sounds like they tried but Fromm is all-in on football.

I'd like to see him play live to get a better sense of his velocity. It looks good, but nothing on the plus side.

And back to his mobility. I need to pay more attention to his accuracy on the move. With Georgia, they usually don't throw the ball a ton because their running game is superb year after year. I think in 14 games this year Fromm barely had 300 attempts.
Love making an argument based on his first 6 games  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 3/24/2019 9:02 pm : link
...
'Here are his numbers, after 6 games'...  
Torrag : 3/24/2019 9:03 pm : link
LOL why bother even posting an opinion based on this? Waste of time and intellectually dishonest. The stats are out for his entire career. If you want to make a point use them.
Iíd take Fromm all day  
WillVAB : 3/24/2019 10:27 pm : link
Not sure where heíll go but I suspect as the draft approaches next year his stock will dip. Heís not going to wow anyone with his arm or athleticism.
Don't worry about not having the draft power to land  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/24/2019 11:35 pm : link
Fross next year. Gettleman still has Barkley to trade for the picks we need to get Fross.
One of the best college professors I had was named  
BlueLou'sBack : 3/25/2019 1:01 am : link
Herbert Baker, Botanical Ecologist at UC Berkeley. He taught me more about using statistics than the actual Stats professor I had later in grad school at Davis...

He had a great line about stats, warning us all about the sloppy tendency people have "to use stats like a blind man uses a street lamp post - more for support than illumination."

So after 6 games Haskins was dreadful under pressure, but by the end of the season he was one of the best in college football for the whole season? Meaning, of course, he must've killed it his last 8 games?

Somewhere I read that Justin Meyers actually changed significant parts of his offense during the season so that it would match to Haskins' skills. Maybe Haskins learned to read and correct protections during the season?

Dude, you just gotta watch guys play to decide who you really like, and then make your argument on that. Please stop with the stats, folks have been begging you, nicely. This is one of your worst posts ever, and that's saying something.

Haskinís does not do well under pressure.  
Giant John : 3/25/2019 5:11 am : link
Itís his biggest fault. Every QB coming out will have things to improve upon.
Its like saying  
mdthedream : 3/25/2019 6:58 am : link
if youp pick 17th next year you would be able to draft say Andrew Luck if he was in the draft. There is no way to know where you will be picking and like Murray we will not be able to pick him as well. So comparing Haskins to Fromm is a waste of time.
RE: Fromm is what...  
section125 : 3/25/2019 8:34 am : link
In comment 14355474 bw in dc said:
Quote:
is a much better version of Daniel Jones.

But I also struggle to find enough plus parts of his game so far.


Sorry, I see no similarities between Fromm and Jones. Fromm looks so much smoother. Maybe are looking at different parts of their games. I like Fromm a lot better than Jones.
This..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/25/2019 8:40 am : link
OP's MO is pretty consistent.

Making up facts in the guise of research:

Quote:
This is inaccurate.
Strahan91 : 3/24/2019 7:17 pm : link : reply
Haskinsí passer rating when pressured was 87.6 which sort of makes your point moot.


Seems like every one of his posts needs to be fact checked because they consistently are just a conglomeration of made up shit.
I have this feeling  
Mike from Ohio : 3/25/2019 8:51 am : link
that teams all around the league are getting emails like this from sxdxca as he tries to land a job in their scouting department as an analytics guru. What he gets back is probably an autographed picture of a player and a note saying something like "Good job, kid! When you grow up you can come work with us!"
We also have to know  
anon837 : 3/25/2019 9:27 am : link
is Fromm going to renounce his senior year and enter the draft? If not, he, and possibly Lawrence, if he doesn't forgo his senior year, will be fighting it out for the #1 QB in 2021. If he doesn't declare, you can't draft him. Herbert didn't declare this year and threw a hitch in to the plans of teams, one of them being the Giants.
Giants right or wrong aren't expecting  
Pan-handler : 3/25/2019 9:38 am : link
To pick close to 6 next year with their win now belief.

They just aren't. They saw what the team did without OBJ and a defense in flux in the 2nd half.

They are believing in greater things this year coupled with the 2nd easiest strength of schedule in the NFL.

Lets say they are proven correct and we pick early 20's or later....its gonna be awfully hard to get a top QB in that position. Awfully Hard. You can argue strongly with Eli at 39 and in his last year of contract the time to strike is NOW.

RE: FWIW, Fromm seemed to disappear  
ATL_Giants : 3/25/2019 9:41 am : link
In comment 14355421 section125 said:
Quote:
but he sort of came up short..

"Ya don't say"
-K Murray
Whatís the point of this thread?  
BillT : 3/25/2019 9:43 am : link
The chances of us getting Fromm next year are slim and none. And thatís especially true if the OP is correct because if he is then itíll likely Fromm is going #1 next year.
If Fromm continues his strong play at Georgia next year  
Jimmy Googs : 3/25/2019 9:54 am : link
he will come out as a junior and be a top pick.

The only way we get him is we trade that second #1 pick this year for something next year to use as collateral to move up.

Imv...
RE: Haskinís does not do well under pressure.  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/25/2019 10:09 am : link
In comment 14355694 Giant John said:
Quote:
Itís his biggest fault. Every QB coming out will have things to improve upon.

Except that the stats actually reflect that he's the best QB in the class under pressure (and would have been the best in all recent classes as well).

The idea that Haskins struggles under pressure is, IMO, a bastardization of the argument that Haskins didn't face much pressure due to an outstanding OL and skill position players that forced defenses to keep more guys back in coverage. But aside from an incredibly small sample size where Haskins looked visibly more shaky in a game where he was heavily pressured, there's very little to determine Haskins' effectiveness under pressure one way or another.
RE: We also have to know  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/25/2019 10:12 am : link
In comment 14355808 anon837 said:
Quote:
is Fromm going to renounce his senior year and enter the draft? If not, he, and possibly Lawrence, if he doesn't forgo his senior year, will be fighting it out for the #1 QB in 2021. If he doesn't declare, you can't draft him. Herbert didn't declare this year and threw a hitch in to the plans of teams, one of them being the Giants.

For the sake of accuracy, Lawrence would have to forego his senior year to enter the 2021 draft. If he plays all four seasons of his eligibility, Lawrence will be in the 2022 draft.

In the event that Lawrence and Fromm are in the same draft, they're not battling for the #1 spot - it's Lawrence's by a fairly wide margin, IMO, barring any sort of significant injury or decline in play.
Fromm  
BigBlueCane : 3/25/2019 10:51 am : link
has a lot more talent at Georgia then Jones did at Duke.

Unfortunately, Fromm has a shittier coach at Georgia as well.

He's not liable to develop much.
RE: Fromm  
bw in dc : 3/25/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14355946 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
has a lot more talent at Georgia then Jones did at Duke.

Unfortunately, Fromm has a shittier coach at Georgia as well.

He's not liable to develop much.


Fromm only had 300 attempts last year, about 20 attempts per game. And that's because Georgia has such a dominant, perennial running game, and just overall talent, that they are very good at getting leads and making it easier for the QB to manage the game. So Fromm is definitely playing in a very QB friendly environment.

I do like him. There is a poise and toughness that shine through. But I need to see more because I just don't see enough plus qualities.
RE: Fromm  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/25/2019 11:30 am : link
In comment 14355946 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
has a lot more talent at Georgia then Jones did at Duke.

Unfortunately, Fromm has a shittier coach at Georgia as well.

He's not liable to develop much.

This is pretty much the best endorsement Kirby Smart could have wished for.
RE: One of the best college professors I had was named  
Vanzetti : 3/25/2019 1:30 pm : link
In comment 14355680 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
Please stop with the stats, folks have been begging you, nicely. This is one of your worst posts ever, and that's saying something.


If you don't like his posts, don't read them.

I just don't get why certain BBIers have to come onto threads, just to tell the OP they don't know crap. It's weird.
RE: If Fromm continues his strong play at Georgia next year  
Eman11 : 3/25/2019 2:07 pm : link
In comment 14355840 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
he will come out as a junior and be a top pick.

The only way we get him is we trade that second #1 pick this year for something next year to use as collateral to move up.

Imv...


Or they could use the 2021 #1 instead of this year's 2nd #1.
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