Well the salad days are over and have been for 7 years. As we sink deeper into the abyss of horrible franchises, we clean out the house and bring back an old friend in Dave Gettleman. We hire a no nonsense former OL from the Midwest to shine that image back up. We trade away the golden god, and anyone else who wasn't team first in this organization's eyes. Gone are: Jerry Reese, Marc Ross, Ben Mcasomething, Damon Harrison, Eli Apple, Olivier Vernon, Davis Webb, Golden God, Landon Collins, Ereck Flowers, Bobby Hart, Justin Pugh and Weston Richburg. All players traded, cut or not re-signed since our GM took over.
Many hate it all, some really think it's the right thing, and we bicker and fight all the time now because our team is a joke league wide. Now it's time to declare your allegiance. Is it Pessimist or Optimist? What are you???? For the record I have optimism and I am excited to see us build.
I think QB has to be addressed - long term and that's a big piece (captain obvious?) whether it's this draft, next draft or a trade/FA.
If I can't find anything to look forward to or be optimistic about, what's the point, though? Sports should be enjoyable to follow. It's elective entertainment.
The day I don't enjoy anything about being a fan is the day I should stop watching.
I'm looking forward to seeing where we go from here.
It's always an active choice we make as fans whether we choose to acknowledge that or not.
Edge
OT
And pretty much defense from there on in, with strategic trade ups leveraging our draft capital, I'll get quite optimistic.
Are we going QB in 2019 or 2020? Right now the tea leaves seem like it is 2019. I really hope it is NOT Jones.
Younger, cheaper, healthier, with fewer attitude issues.
They have the draft picks and cap space to get more young talent in this draft and next offseason -- including the quarterback of the future.
I suspect this will be a rough year record wise -- but a big step forward in grooming talent.
That said, if you don't see how we just took a giant step forward this offseason, than I really don't know what to tell you.
Another great draft (I view the last draft as a success) and we will be much better off going forward.
Good to see you posting, buddy!
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There are still a lot of questions that need to be answered, and I have a tough time trying to figure out just what the plan is, but I'll never be in the "doom-and-gloom" camp...at least not in March.
Good to see you posting, buddy!
Thanks, arc. It's good to be back.
I see cause for despair because last year was a disaster in FA, and this year saw minimal action that would get one excited. a rebuild has to include FA, so if we blow this aspect, it's going to be subpar results.
Last year was year one of the rebuild. massively subpar, IMO. Aside from Barkley and Hernandez, did we really do anything to improve the team?
Maras continue to be too involved.
I guess put me down as wanna be optimistic, but am expecting pessimistic results.
Because otherwise, what's the point.
I'm uncautiously optimistic and do NOT need to know what the QB plan is...
I'm hopeful that the Giants see Defense and OLine as BPAs in the draft. That said, if they select a QB, I'll become an instant fan.
Go Giants!
regardless of the accuracy of the moniker~
We have a GM who clearly is winging it with this off-season "plan" in terms of personnel.
A HC who didn't have an impressive first year managing game situations. Someone who the jury is still out on.
A 38 year old QB who is being confused with fellow elder statesmen Brady and Brees.
As of now, no QB solution for the future.
And, this needs to be underscored, we are in a conference where two teams are clearly deeper in overall talent and with younger, better QBs.
I'll wait to see how the draft goes, because it's a critical piece, but as of now this is a resounding Pessimistic vote.
Defense wise, Much Better fits at Safety coverage wise. Maturing high draft picks in Carter and BJ Hill. Markus Golden will need to replace OVs production. But Edge Rush still needs to be further bolstered. JJ is one legit CB, Beal will need to show something and hopefully a draft pick at CB . If this D can just be average that will be a big jump from last year.
We have a GM who clearly is winging it with this off-season "plan" in terms of personnel.
A HC who didn't have an impressive first year managing game situations. Someone who the jury is still out on.
A 38 year old QB who is being confused with fellow elder statesmen Brady and Brees.
As of now, no QB solution for the future.
And, this needs to be underscored, we are in a conference where two teams are clearly deeper in overall talent and with younger, better QBs.
I'll wait to see how the draft goes, because it's a critical piece, but as of now this is a resounding Pessimistic vote.
And Shurmur's offense was a 1000% better than McAdoo's. And I'm just talking about the offense, I know PS did have the benefit of Saquon. But play design was better, blocking was better. Everything was better, and McAdoo still sucks.
Reason being, DG has vacillated between rebuild/win, and he has made several good moves and countered them with several bad ones, kinda like one step forward and one step back.....
But there is no doubt that he has to really hit on the draft, especially the 2 picks from the OBj trade.....
Let's face it, you are lucky if you hit on two players from the draft that become starters......he really needs more than that, and he has to hope that the guys he drafted after Hernandez act on their potential.....Carter and Hill....Mcintosh is a pipe dream....
With SB being the only real threat on offense, and OBj gone, defenses will naturally key on him.....and the OL is not fixed yet....a C and RT are needed, or SB will still be dodging defenders in the backfield before he gets started....
As for the defense, with no depth, a key injury or two, and the season is basically over...
So yes, we need a strong draft....we need to pluck a few guys from the final cuts that will help us....we need to avoid injuries......and Shurm has to be a much better coach than he was last season.....
If we don't get a QB this year, it's quite possible we could win 6-9 games this season, making it hard to get the QB we may want next year.....
So optimistic? Eh....
Pessimistic? the team had to be revamped.....we are going in that direction but not as fast as it should have.....
This team can very easily go either way, depending on how the cards are dealt.....I think I will sit on the fence for now....
Honestly believe that Rosen sets us back. We put a lot of eggs on him and he's gone in a year or two.
Honestly believe that passing on a QB until 202 lets us get our ducks in a row, obtain the best of possible QB's, and jumps starts us, without Eli but with what Eli's salary (and Jenkins et al) buys us.
So, how I feel is very dependent upon the choice DG makes in April.
That said, if you don't see how we just took a giant step forward this offseason, than I really don't know what to tell you.
You make that sound like it's so readily apparent, and I'm not sure why. In terms of the long-term, yeah, they project to have a ton of salary cap space, but in terms of on-field, the defense is a tear down. The ideal scenario is that all of last year's rookies play even better and the injured players they count as additions show they're 100% healthy, but player development isn't just a static upward line on a chart.
...you've over-simplified the Giants situation, as well as simplifying how one is supposed to feel about it.
Been a Giants fan a long time, and have been through several re-builds; almost re-builds; re-build false starts and outright re-build failures.
IMO, the only rational way to look at all of Gettleman's moves is to WAIT AND SEE. I've liked some of his moves and disliked others. But in the end, who the F knows?
Lastly, Sam Beal is a wild card. If he hits and stays healthy, could be huge for us. If he's a dud, we'll have another hole to fill.
Standing by 4-12 to 6-10 for next year until the team proves me wrong.
I kind of wish we could just skip 2019 and get to 2020, because I think thats where we're going to take a big leap forward.
1. Is Shurmur going to improve as a gameday coach? He was brutal on Sundays in 2018.
2. What is the approach going to be next offseason with all that cap space? Is it going to be a repeat of 2016 when we threw A+ money at B players? I hope it ends up being more like what we saw this year: conservative and avoiding the A level FA contracts.
I think next offseason is the big one for the direction of the franchise.
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That said, if you don't see how we just took a giant step forward this offseason, than I really don't know what to tell you.
You make that sound like it's so readily apparent, and I'm not sure why. In terms of the long-term, yeah, they project to have a ton of salary cap space, but in terms of on-field, the defense is a tear down. The ideal scenario is that all of last year's rookies play even better and the injured players they count as additions show they're 100% healthy, but player development isn't just a static upward line on a chart.
Because it is. We are in 100% better shape than we were this time last year. Got rid of bad eggs, brought in assets to use on draft day, freed up tons of cap, and seem to be building a better culture.
Is any of this untrue?
The O line is starting to actually look decent. We have three above average starters (I know some people don't like Solder, but I think he's good) for the first time in a long time and the offseason isn't finished yet.
Lastly, we have 12 draft picks and next year we're set to have over 50 mill in cap space. We'll be able to build up a young corps this year and add big to it next year in FA.
You have to like where we're at, especially considering where we've been recently.
Regardless, I am very optimistic in the direction we are headed and I still feel that Eli has a gift and has winning in his veins if he can just be protected. We lost a lot of very close games this past year that could've gone either way, but we simply had some bad luck (and luck is always a factor in close games).
I believe that if we can avoid the injury bug again and keep our studs on the playing field, and have a solid o-line - we will be in the playoffs. I'm excited to see where this team will go.
Mara.
He reeks of incompetence at the top. Let's just go back 2 years ago. He tries to blame Reese and McAdoo for the way the whole Eli benching was handled. But let's not pretend he was fully involved with that decision and then totally backtracked on it and tried to blame everyone else. If you ask me he's still backtracking on it and trying to make up for it because of the way it was handled and regrets about Simms. Every time Mara speaks I find myself thinking that this guy should just shut up.
Shurmur
Are we going to forget how he isn't a very good coach? How many games did his bad play calling or gross incompetence with managing the clock lose us last year? How many times did he basically just get bailed out by a superhuman RB? This team doesn't have more talent than other teams. And how many wins last year came against backup QBs? I don't think we have the right person in charge here. And that means we could very well be bringing in a new coach with new systems who will want to rebuild all over again with players to fit those systems in a couple years.
Gettleman
I will hold out judgement on him as it's too early. But I'm not a fan of his approach to things. The OBJ trade and not basically calling every single team to see what they would offer, not even answering the phone for trades when the Giants are on the clock, never trading down in his career in the draft. And while we are so happy to have all this cap space next year, did we really do a good job with our cap space last year? Outside of the draft last year, our offseason was pretty horrible no? From the stick with Eli approach, to signing horrible players to contracts more than they were worth? Everything is rosey now?
Personnel
We have no QB. Who knows when the next time it will be before we have a good QB. Some teams go through DECADES without finding a good QB.
So put me in the pessimist category.
And as my crazy but astute alcoholic uncle Greg told me once after a disappointing Giant's season, if they weren't any good with the previous players maybe they will be better with new players. Amen Uncle Greg.
I believe Eli can still play... don't get all the he is done crap
OL is almost complete... much better with Zeitler and a high Draft pick at RT
Feeling great about upcoming draft for defense...
This team will be better than the pessimists believe.
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In comment 14355924 UConn4523 said:
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That said, if you don't see how we just took a giant step forward this offseason, than I really don't know what to tell you.
You make that sound like it's so readily apparent, and I'm not sure why. In terms of the long-term, yeah, they project to have a ton of salary cap space, but in terms of on-field, the defense is a tear down. The ideal scenario is that all of last year's rookies play even better and the injured players they count as additions show they're 100% healthy, but player development isn't just a static upward line on a chart.
Because it is. We are in 100% better shape than we were this time last year. Got rid of bad eggs, brought in assets to use on draft day, freed up tons of cap, and seem to be building a better culture.
Is any of this untrue?
The freed up tons of cap in 2020, not this year. They have the potential to get better. It's all wishful thinking.
They were a bottom 5 defense last year sticking with that side of the ball, 27th in sacks. How are they better? They played worse as a defense after "getting rid of bad eggs". They brought in one young safety, one old safety, and lost a bunch of role players who played a lot of snaps.
I'd be happy to be hopeful if I could nail down one thing they got better at on defense. For all the talk about having a safety that might be able to cover, if they don't have a pass rush, it won't amount to much.
All of these discussions circle back to the QB because it is unavoidable. It is a question that is clearly rattling the Giants org because we've seen defensive comments from DG, Mara, and a few asshats.
They feel a strong conviction that a couple of good offensive performances in the 2nd half are going to carry over into next season. I disagree strongly, but would feel better if they had a contingency in place in case that plan failed, even if it was a longshot prospect like Stidham or Finley. The Jets and Browns found their QBs of the future even immediately after expending previous high picks on QBs (Kizer, Hackenberg), so the Giants can take that risk.
If they start 2-7, however, I don't want to hear any BS about how whatever QB they took "isn't ready" like Lauletta last year.
regardless of the accuracy of the moniker~
Ah, yes. What year was that when the “Optimist or Realist?” debate was raging?
All of these discussions circle back to the QB because it is unavoidable. It is a question that is clearly rattling the Giants org because we've seen defensive comments from DG, Mara, and a few asshats.
I did see that article yesterday in the Star Ledger. Mara comes across as very defensive, and contradictory with some of his conclusions.
Thanks John, that is the plan for every single team in pro sports.
Also frustrated because the Giants have traded/given away relatively young talent like Odell, LC, Vernon, Apple -- and IMO have received little in return. But mostly I am frustrated because while giving away this talent, they continue to insist their 38 year old QB (ranked 28th by PFF (I know some fans think PFF stinks) can be their QB for at least this season and maybe next.
And this despite winning 8 games in two seasons and every single person in the organization held accountable but Eli and Mara.
I am hoping the draft changes my frustration to optimism. We will see.
Link - ( New Window )
Most - if not all - recognized the need for change. Change in management. Change in talent. Change in culture. All are happening.
However, change is difficult and often emotional.
Much of the fan angst is in not knowing the plan in detail. DG stated it correctly a few days ago. It is not for him to divulge, nor for the fans and media to know in detail. You don't show your hand in poker until it is time to lay down the cards.
Fan are impatient. Especially NY'ers. Criticism is the new norm and some here like to criticize regardless of having any real knowledge. Just opinions and a forum to convey them
The ship has turned, and the trim is balanced. This is a transitional year and the future is bright.
Accumulation of talent - whether at the player or coaching level - trumps "culture" any day of the week.
I like somethings Gettleman does and not others.
I think cleaning house was the right thing.
On the fence about his team building. Some good some bad.
With a few more decisions on the good side, this team can come back strong. But a few too many decisions on the bad side and we slide back into the abyss.
In the very long term, this team still has the same ownership that doesn't know how to sustain success. So the team's fortunes will rise at times, and crash at others.
And Shurmur's offense was a 1000% better than McAdoo's. And I'm just talking about the offense, I know PS did have the benefit of Saquon. But play design was better, blocking was better. Everything was better, and McAdoo still sucks.
There are a couple guys we have shown interest in that worry me but yeah last years draft was on the level of 2007 with the chance to be even better. Lets see how McIntosh works out (high hopes for him too).
Its a big overhaul from the last administration. Got to give it time
If we go QB in Round One this year, my heart will sink and I will pout for years as we flail away with a dude who's not ready for prime time.
If we go ER, LB and/or OL in Rounds One and Two this year, then the outlook will be bright for 2020 - when we should go all in for one of the 17 draftable QBs who are each better than any of the ones available in this year's draft
What I like mostly about the direction the Giants are going is the change in culture.
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In comment 14355979 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 14355924 UConn4523 said:
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That said, if you don't see how we just took a giant step forward this offseason, than I really don't know what to tell you.
You make that sound like it's so readily apparent, and I'm not sure why. In terms of the long-term, yeah, they project to have a ton of salary cap space, but in terms of on-field, the defense is a tear down. The ideal scenario is that all of last year's rookies play even better and the injured players they count as additions show they're 100% healthy, but player development isn't just a static upward line on a chart.
Because it is. We are in 100% better shape than we were this time last year. Got rid of bad eggs, brought in assets to use on draft day, freed up tons of cap, and seem to be building a better culture.
Is any of this untrue?
The freed up tons of cap in 2020, not this year. They have the potential to get better. It's all wishful thinking.
They were a bottom 5 defense last year sticking with that side of the ball, 27th in sacks. How are they better? They played worse as a defense after "getting rid of bad eggs". They brought in one young safety, one old safety, and lost a bunch of role players who played a lot of snaps.
I'd be happy to be hopeful if I could nail down one thing they got better at on defense. For all the talk about having a safety that might be able to cover, if they don't have a pass rush, it won't amount to much.
Don't know what to tell you then. I can't predict who they pick, one would assume a pass rusher is at the top of the list. Kind of defeats the purpose of this thread if we had all the answers already.
I'm hopeful that the moves made to free up future cap space, get rid of problematic or underperforming players, and increase our draft equity will put us in a much better position to win. If you don't, that's fine.
Then came the crappy 90s and the old pessimism reared back up, usually after weird losses to the Eagles but culminating with the 49ers playoff loss in 2002. By that point the Parcells years had faded and I was back to expecting bad fortune at every turn
But 2007 and 2011 changed that all for me. I'm now an optimist. It's almost hard for me to say that but at this point I'm trusting the process - and I haven't lost sleep or broken a chair or yelled at my wife after a tough Giants loss in about 12 years now.
I do like some moves that were made, like addressing the Oline. I thought moving on from OBJ was the right move, though one could question whether the return was sufficient.
Overall, I think the 2018 offseason was a large turning point one way or the other, and the Giants chose a more win now path. Obviously that didn't work and one could argue that Giants now recognize that, but I still question the direction. Jettisoning some old pieces, but then bringing in aging vets on larger than expected contracts. I also fear the Giants will reach for a qb this year out of desperation. I also question the wisdom of building around a running back in the modern NFL.
I think if the Giants nail the next qb pick, a lot will fall into place. I think the Oline also needs go gel and we need to see the emergence of some young guys on both the O and D lines. But until that time, I am more pessimistic than optimistic.
I have faith in DG and PS.
Honestly believe that Rosen sets us back. We put a lot of eggs on him and he's gone in a year or two.
Honestly believe that passing on a QB until 202 lets us get our ducks in a row, obtain the best of possible QB's, and jumps starts us, without Eli but with what Eli's salary (and Jenkins et al) buys us.
So, how I feel is very dependent upon the choice DG makes in April.
+1
Have a superstar WR and SS who want huge $$$? Too bad - see you later. Even if you're the most popular guys on the team. I love it. You don't fit. He is going to relentlessly build his style of team even as dopes trying to fill out their fantasy rosters wonder what his plan is.
We WILL have a dominant running team with a great D, or we'll die trying. It's what wins in the Northeast, it's what wins in the NFL and it's the style of football I love to watch. There is no answer to it. Let everyone else run the spread basketball on grass bullshit.
This will be The Saquon Barkley Show behind the best OLine in the league very soon and there isn't a damn thing anyone will be able to do about it. And if Barkley gets hurt, the backup RB will come in and play well too. F it.
This is probably Jenkins' last year.
Ogletree will have to take a paycut next year, if he wants to stay.
Eli will probably be gone.
If the Giants are successful finding/drafting a QB, ER, QB, CB, they'll have a much younger, much more financially efficient roster
I've even been persuaded that the trade was an addition in the right direction
Let's see what the future brings -- if you can't be optimistic now -- waiting for 12 draft pics to be chosen -- what's the point????
By the way -- I'll be very surprised if the Giants pick a QB early this year -- very very surprised -- and I'm ok with it
De-Fense!!!!
I believe in the coaching. The talk from Gettleman is what I want to hear, and so far he's been improving the OL. I like the direction we seem to be going.
Take me back to power-running and a fierce defensive front 7 - think Keith Hamilton-era defense.
Have a superstar WR and SS who want huge $$$? Too bad - see you later. Even if you're the most popular guys on the team. I love it. You don't fit. He is going to relentlessly build his style of team even as dopes trying to fill out their fantasy rosters wonder what his plan is.
We WILL have a dominant running team with a great D, or we'll die trying. It's what wins in the Northeast, it's what wins in the NFL and it's the style of football I love to watch. There is no answer to it. Let everyone else run the spread basketball on grass bullshit.
This will be The Saquon Barkley Show behind the best OLine in the league very soon and there isn't a damn thing anyone will be able to do about it. And if Barkley gets hurt, the backup RB will come in and play well too. F it.
Agree! Regarding your last statement, I would consider Sanders at Penn St. He has some similar attributes of Saquon, but less talented. Would make a good back up in case Saquon gets injured.
i do think we'll win more games this year with an improved OL. so my only concern is that i don't think we'll be drafting this high again next year.
I believe in the coaching. The talk from Gettleman is what I want to hear, and so far he's been improving the OL. I like the direction we seem to be going.
Take me back to power-running and a fierce defensive front 7 - think Keith Hamilton-era defense.
I would be extremely disappointed if we used 12 picks this year. Consolidation to either move up or get 2020 picks would be my choice.
But like anything, my feelings means jack....if results do not change.
This draft could be viewed as one of the most important in franchise history.
I trust 3/5 of the OL and can live with 4/5 of it....but a RT is needed...an experienced one.
Pmist____2020___5-11___Eli's last, BBI complains he had no weapons
Pmist____2021___4-12___New QB, Barkley extended for record$
Omist____2022___8-8___Barkley injured, Defense finally competes
Omist____2023___11-5___Playoffs? P-P-Playoffs?
And if we eek out a couple of more wins than last year, but still has no QB with Eli retiring, then what?
Interesting.
Interesting.
Well why don't you write a dissertation to tell us about it?
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I'm actually surprised at how heavily this thread wound up weighing on the optimistic end...
Interesting.
Well why don't you write a dissertation to tell us about it?
Only if you'll not misquote Mark Twain again in response. :)
I'll also need about 3 more cups of coffee.
Well why don't you write a dissertation to tell us about it?
Only if you'll not misquote Mark Twain again in response. :)
I'll also need about 3 more cups of coffee.
Did I? Was it book? Or was it really Samuel Clemens? ;)
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Well why don't you write a dissertation to tell us about it?
Only if you'll not misquote Mark Twain again in response. :)
I'll also need about 3 more cups of coffee.
Did I? Was it book? Or was it really Samuel Clemens? ;)
I saw in the original thread that someone posted that you made a mis-attribution and that the person who really said (wrote) that was Blaise Pascal.
A quick Google search shows very limited infromation on the quote but I did see a couple places that said something like "Variously attributed to Twain, Pascal [see BBI,for example], or Benjamin Franklin. Given that none of those three were contemporaries of the others, it's possible that it was truly Pascal and subsequently stolen by Franklin and then Twain.
Unlike a few here, I feel DG knows what he is doing. I'd have prefered Eli being let go, but he's getting paid so...
I like what they are doing with the oline - now finish it.
I like that they said the defense sucks and it will get fixed.
I did not like OBJ being traded, but I get it. I would have prefered keeping Landon Collins, but not at $14 mill per.
So I will remain somewhat optimistic.
Interesting.
Pessimists are louder
I'm a BIG FAN of lockerroom culture and leadership.
In DG I Trust, at least for 2019. :)
Irrelevant!
I'm getting older. Don't know how much time I have for another rebuild!
Stockpiling draft picks is never a bad idea during a rebuild, but obviously you need to get them right to get out of the rebuild. I'll be optimistic on that front until we see otherwise. If they can add another 3 or 4 starters like they did last year this ship can turn quickly. If they can do that while also adding a QB (or future draft capital for that same intent) it can be a team built for sustained success.
The Eli stuff is a lot of noise about something with very few good alternatives. As someone who believes they would have taken a QB if there were a consensus last year, I hope they find that consensus soon and set the franchise up for the future. In the meantime I love the idea of using the rest of the draft picks (+FA $) to finally start building areas of the neglect as the Colts did last year. If we can hit on a couple picks the way they did, I don't think a similar unexpected good season is out of the question.
Gettleman has made a lot of moves, but so far what do they mean?
The game is on the field and that's where Gettleman will be judged.
He's got two more years MAX to turn this shit show around. Same with the Head Coach. Then we can all decide together whether we've all turned optimistic or not.
Gettleman has made a lot of moves, but so far what do they mean?
The game is on the field and that's where Gettleman will be judged.
He's got two more years MAX to turn this shit show around. Same with the Head Coach. Then we can all decide together whether we've all turned optimistic or not.
Haha, that’s basically what happens after someone is optimistic or pessimistic. You skipped it and jumped right to 2021 without participating.
This is probably a salient point. What are we really talking about re: optimism? It would be a misrepresentation to say that they are "all in on ELi" unless we are only talking about optimism/pessimism short-term. Long-term; i.e. after this upcoming season, Eli is irrelevant. So, it's possible to be pessimistic for 2019 but optimistic for the future as they continue to build. QB is just a piece. An important piece to be sure, but one that can also be the angel on top after the tree has been decorated.
Then, we see how this team is coming together in pre-season. At that point we can make a prediction.
For now, this is still a losing team.
What does being an optimist mean? Thinking at the end of next year things will look better than the end of this year? Well yeah of course I’m optimistic on that. The team will have a lot of picks this year and Eli’s contract is over after this year with 90million if cap space projected ( or more next year).
So yeah optimistic- the schedule isn’t hard- the ol is better- the defense is young with no depth - but they should eek out more wins this year.
Does that mean they have this clear vision? Maybe now they do- they were 100 percent wrong about the teams potential last year and moves (ex draft) delayed the rebuild a year- let’s not act like they came in and this year is phase 2.
This is phase one/year one.
And while I find it disappointing that we continue to cater to Eli on the downside of his career- I think they are at least moving with a coherent plan - for years we drafted potential toys for Eli and potential linemen who all sucked- now at least their is some consistency to moves outside of the golden Tate signing which is still odd
We have an aging QB who hasn't been that good for some time and no replacement in sight. The brain trust decided to pass on drafting a QB last year when they had a high pick and a plethora of choices so they could spend that coin on a star running back.
Now we're apparently going to build the team around that RB and pretend that we're going to party like it's 1969.
We have a lot of picks this year and a lot of cap space in 2020, so there might be some reason for optimism in the long term, but that's if you believe that the gang that couldn't shoot straight is going to manage those resources properly.
All signs point to this being another tank year.
We have an aging QB who hasn't been that good for some time and no replacement in sight. The brain trust decided to pass on drafting a QB last year when they had a high pick and a plethora of choices so they could spend that coin on a star running back.
Now we're apparently going to build the team around that RB and pretend that we're going to party like it's 1969.
We have a lot of picks this year and a lot of cap space in 2020, so there might be some reason for optimism in the long term, but that's if you believe that the gang that couldn't shoot straight is going to manage those resources properly.
All signs point to this being another tank year.
2 time Super Bowl winning QB who is still pretty good when there is a modicum of protection like we saw 2nd half last year .
Brees, Brady and Peyton had deep playoff runs or a Super Bowl win very late in their careers when they had the right cast around them. Eli can do the same.
What does being an optimist mean? Thinking at the end of next year things will look better than the end of this year? Well yeah of course I’m optimistic on that. The team will have a lot of picks this year and Eli’s contract is over after this year with 90million if cap space projected ( or more next year).
So yeah optimistic- the schedule isn’t hard- the ol is better- the defense is young with no depth - but they should eek out more wins this year.
Does that mean they have this clear vision? Maybe now they do- they were 100 percent wrong about the teams potential last year and moves (ex draft) delayed the rebuild a year- let’s not act like they came in and this year is phase 2.
This is phase one/year one.
And while I find it disappointing that we continue to cater to Eli on the downside of his career- I think they are at least moving with a coherent plan - for years we drafted potential toys for Eli and potential linemen who all sucked- now at least their is some consistency to moves outside of the golden Tate signing which is still odd
Think this is spot on. If the answer is do we have a chance to be better now? I mean of course with all the draft picks and cap room we have a better chance to be better than we've had in a while.
But this idea that optimism is rooted in anything but hope is kind of crazy given what we've seen take place with the same ownership in charge, the same one that seems to have hired two coaches in over their head, held onto Reese for too long and didn't even fool us into thinking they wanted to expand the scope of the thinking on this team by interviewing individuals from front offices that take a more modern approach to team building and analysis.
Also this idea that we are just "stupid fans" is so annoying. People do their jobs poorly all the time, very experienced people. Especially now, as technology is advancing in all industries some people that have been good at their jobs with very traditional approaches are being left behind. Sure I agree, people that are just amateur football analysts trying to compete using the same information as Gettleman watching 1,000's of hours of film, yes there is a point. But when there are those like me advocating that there are better analytics systems that other teams are using to aid decision making and looking around the Giants organization there isn't anyone that even looks like they would begin to know how to build one of those, yes, I am qualified to make that assessment, much more qualified than DG in fact.
DG and the Mara's have made some generously curious decisions that can only look like they were made looking at one season or a few seasons perhaps sacrificing win maximization for many years. Is it nice that they are finally pursuing a course of action that has the viability of a top team? Yeah, very refreshing compared to last off-season. But they have still done things like picking Barkley that show they either don't know how to leverage game theory in team building or just don't care about it. To that I say great, there are plenty of contrarians that don't play the numbers and win. But make no mistake about it, they need a new QB. And it's harder to find one picking 6, with all our holes on defense trading up and winning isn't a great option. 38% chance of picking a pro bowl player picks 5-14, 26.5% chance of picking a pro bowl player 15-24. 51.3% for 1-4. It's likely based on our approach we are out of 1-4 next year.
DG has never been the head honcho selecting a franchise QB. The guy he picked last year was an abject failure of a person while has told us that character is the main thing he looks for in a QB. This is all banking on him getting one but with Barkely on the team and the extreme difficulty of winning with a top back on their 2nd contract and this "re-load" approach he's both not given himself the draft position you really need to land a top QB and backed himself into a corner where the roster isn't really built for him to trade a bunch of picks to get his guy, the old KC method that he seems to love but not understand.
We also have a massive hole at RT, and no legitimate outside receivers.
8-8 would likely be a miracle this year....something like 4 or 5 wins is far more likely.
And if that occurs we'll have cemented ourselves as the worst franchise in the league - which we may well already be.
You just traded away two of the team's best, if medically unreliable, players in OBJ and OV.
To replace them, we've brought in a wing and a prayer in Markus Golden, and a guy I flat out don't think highly of in Golden Tate, who's likely on the downside of his less than illustrious career, and you paid over 10 mil per for him.
Long term things look better, because in 2020 a ton of cap space opens up. But much of that is Eli, and right now we don't have table scraps to replace him. I like Zeitler, and think he, together with Solder, can be the vets that help mold the youngsters still to come along with Hernandez who I think will improve all the way to Pro bowl and even All Pro level, he's got both the tools and even more importantly the tenacity and nastiness to do it.
We need a future OC, an immediate RT, and even a future LT in this draft, and right now we have vets on both sides of the OL to groom and mold these youngsters.
So I see hope for 2020 and beyond. 2019 - not so much. I like Shurmur on the simple basis of the way the team battled last year after the horrid start, but dumping 2 legit players (one superstar) for 2 mehs isn't a pathway to a better 2019 season. Not at all. Best record I see for 2019 is 8-8, and it could be a lot uglier than that.
What does being an optimist mean? Thinking at the end of next year things will look better than the end of this year? Well yeah of course I’m optimistic on that. The team will have a lot of picks this year and Eli’s contract is over after this year with 90million if cap space projected ( or more next year).
So yeah optimistic- the schedule isn’t hard- the ol is better- the defense is young with no depth - but they should eek out more wins this year.
Does that mean they have this clear vision? Maybe now they do- they were 100 percent wrong about the teams potential last year and moves (ex draft) delayed the rebuild a year- let’s not act like they came in and this year is phase 2.
This is phase one/year one.
And while I find it disappointing that we continue to cater to Eli on the downside of his career- I think they are at least moving with a coherent plan - for years we drafted potential toys for Eli and potential linemen who all sucked- now at least their is some consistency to moves outside of the golden Tate signing which is still odd
It’s not an either or proposition. You don’t have to take a classic rebuild or classic all in approach to demonstrate a clear vision.
Last year DG made strategic moves to open up cap space and add talent to the roster. He used the draft to refocus the team building strategy. As soon as any of the moves didn’t work out he cut bait. As soon as the season went in the shitter he dumped all of the under achievers.
DG is simultaneously trying to field a competitive team while rebuilding the roster the right way. You can argue the merits of that approach, but to say there’s no clear vision is fool hardy.
This vision is clear to anyone willing to shed their personal biases and preferences.
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In comment 14356278 arcarsenal said:
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Well why don't you write a dissertation to tell us about it?
Only if you'll not misquote Mark Twain again in response. :)
I'll also need about 3 more cups of coffee.
Did I? Was it book? Or was it really Samuel Clemens? ;)
I saw in the original thread that someone posted that you made a mis-attribution and that the person who really said (wrote) that was Blaise Pascal.
A quick Google search shows very limited infromation on the quote but I did see a couple places that said something like "Variously attributed to Twain, Pascal [see BBI,for example], or Benjamin Franklin. Given that none of those three were contemporaries of the others, it's possible that it was truly Pascal and subsequently stolen by Franklin and then Twain.
That was me. I didn't mean to be snarky about it. Pascal is the oldest and most would consider the original source, but it is such a common sense thing that who is to say Pascal was the first ever to write down such a notion or that later scholars stole it from him.
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We averaged 4 wins a year the last 2 seasons and have been an embarrassment for 5 of the last 6 years.
What does being an optimist mean? Thinking at the end of next year things will look better than the end of this year? Well yeah of course I’m optimistic on that. The team will have a lot of picks this year and Eli’s contract is over after this year with 90million if cap space projected ( or more next year).
So yeah optimistic- the schedule isn’t hard- the ol is better- the defense is young with no depth - but they should eek out more wins this year.
Does that mean they have this clear vision? Maybe now they do- they were 100 percent wrong about the teams potential last year and moves (ex draft) delayed the rebuild a year- let’s not act like they came in and this year is phase 2.
This is phase one/year one.
And while I find it disappointing that we continue to cater to Eli on the downside of his career- I think they are at least moving with a coherent plan - for years we drafted potential toys for Eli and potential linemen who all sucked- now at least their is some consistency to moves outside of the golden Tate signing which is still odd
It’s not an either or proposition. You don’t have to take a classic rebuild or classic all in approach to demonstrate a clear vision.
Last year DG made strategic moves to open up cap space and add talent to the roster. He used the draft to refocus the team building strategy. As soon as any of the moves didn’t work out he cut bait. As soon as the season went in the shitter he dumped all of the under achievers.
DG is simultaneously trying to field a competitive team while rebuilding the roster the right way. You can argue the merits of that approach, but to say there’s no clear vision is fool hardy.
This vision is clear to anyone willing to shed their personal biases and preferences.
Strategic moves to freeing up cap space last year? He signed obj long term and signed soldier to the highest contract in football- what are you talking about?
And My bias is rooting for the giants and not paying people for future performance not past
The pessimists called themselves "The Realists" LOL
And while I find it disappointing that we continue to cater to Eli on the downside of his career- I think they are at least moving with a coherent plan - for years we drafted potential toys for Eli and potential linemen who all sucked- now at least their is some consistency to moves outside of the golden Tate signing which is still odd
This catering has been an enormous albatross around this organization's neck for at least three years.
We should have traded Eli after the 2015 season. He had peaked - had decent stats in another poor year - and probably had some decent market value left. But three years later, we continue to believe that Eli is the a key component to moving forward.
It's one of the most remarkable situations I have ever seen...
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In comment 14356574 hitdog42 said:
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We averaged 4 wins a year the last 2 seasons and have been an embarrassment for 5 of the last 6 years.
What does being an optimist mean? Thinking at the end of next year things will look better than the end of this year? Well yeah of course I’m optimistic on that. The team will have a lot of picks this year and Eli’s contract is over after this year with 90million if cap space projected ( or more next year).
So yeah optimistic- the schedule isn’t hard- the ol is better- the defense is young with no depth - but they should eek out more wins this year.
Does that mean they have this clear vision? Maybe now they do- they were 100 percent wrong about the teams potential last year and moves (ex draft) delayed the rebuild a year- let’s not act like they came in and this year is phase 2.
This is phase one/year one.
And while I find it disappointing that we continue to cater to Eli on the downside of his career- I think they are at least moving with a coherent plan - for years we drafted potential toys for Eli and potential linemen who all sucked- now at least their is some consistency to moves outside of the golden Tate signing which is still odd
It’s not an either or proposition. You don’t have to take a classic rebuild or classic all in approach to demonstrate a clear vision.
Last year DG made strategic moves to open up cap space and add talent to the roster. He used the draft to refocus the team building strategy. As soon as any of the moves didn’t work out he cut bait. As soon as the season went in the shitter he dumped all of the under achievers.
DG is simultaneously trying to field a competitive team while rebuilding the roster the right way. You can argue the merits of that approach, but to say there’s no clear vision is fool hardy.
This vision is clear to anyone willing to shed their personal biases and preferences.
Strategic moves to freeing up cap space last year? He signed obj long term and signed soldier to the highest contract in football- what are you talking about?
And My bias is rooting for the giants and not paying people for future performance not past
He traded JPP. He let Richburg and Pugh walk. He cut DRC.
Again, you can disagree with the vision, but you’re being dishonest by saying there’s no vision.
That being said, I love what we are doing and after watching the playoffs last year think we can get there with a strong running game and a veteran Eli. I always believe you just need to get him to the playoffs because he is a different post season player. Wasn’t expecting the last time he got there for his receivers to not show up.
I think if we find a right tackle and if Eli gets his in pocket confidence back without getting hit after 2 sec, we will see an MVP like regular season from him.
Barkley, enough said. Also love Martin.
I think we will be fine with our wide receivers. Give Eli enough time and I think our receivers can efficiently get open.
Outside of a few moves, I think we have taken the most Patriots like model I have seen. Next year will be telling when we have all the cap space how we spend it.
I think with two more players that can get to the qb, our defense will be fine and will be grateful helped by a more efficient offense with longer drives.
I think and hope our coach will have a better game management feel but felt like he was self reflective and made improvements off of past choices that failed.
Finally, I do have one worry. I think the team we put out on paper to start the season can go to the Super Bowl—I am optimistic about this draft after last years—however, my one point of pestimism is the ability to overcome injuries because I feel we are another year away from having substantial depth.
Prediction, Giants 11 and 5. Eli pro bowl, all pro and Barkley over 2,000 rush yards. Giants will make the playoffs and I will enjoy the ride from there.
Still too much work to do building this roster. We'll add a lot of talent via the Draft but it will be rookie talent andd they'll need some time to put it together.
In DG I trust. Stay the course. 2020!
But the roster is not good and a lot of our extra picks are in places that require a great deal of luck to get "hits". And we are still going nowhere until we change the guy under center.
Pessimist...
For the first time in years, we seem to actually have a good ST all around.
Now, the decimated D is the wild card. I think we have slightly upgraded our tandem at S. We have a lot of work to do, but it is a D heavy draft and we have money to spend.
This season can go a lot of ways. I just think we can do enough this year to restore some Pettitte to the franchise and contend for the playoffs.