Ok Line Up. Pessimists vs. Optimists is back!

weight to the "bad egg" theory of the Giants struggles. Fine if fans do that I suppose but my sense is Gettleman is a big believer too.

but would like to be optimistic. I am frustrated because I feel like Mara and Gettleman treat the fans like idiots -- “The plan is to build the team and make it better. I don’t know why that’s such an issue with you [in the media] or with fans, to be honest. That’s the plan.”

Thanks John, that is the plan for every single team in pro sports.

Also frustrated because the Giants have traded/given away relatively young talent like Odell, LC, Vernon, Apple -- and IMO have received little in return. But mostly I am frustrated because while giving away this talent, they continue to insist their 38 year old QB (ranked 28th by PFF (I know some fans think PFF stinks) can be their QB for at least this season and maybe next.

And this despite winning 8 games in two seasons and every single person in the organization held accountable but Eli and Mara.

I am hoping the draft changes my frustration to optimism. We will see.
Link - ( New Window )

Year 2 of the 3 year rebuild underway with significant changes already made - ALL for the better.

Most - if not all - recognized the need for change. Change in management. Change in talent. Change in culture. All are happening.

However, change is difficult and often emotional.

Much of the fan angst is in not knowing the plan in detail. DG stated it correctly a few days ago. It is not for him to divulge, nor for the fans and media to know in detail. You don't show your hand in poker until it is time to lay down the cards.

Fan are impatient. Especially NY'ers. Criticism is the new norm and some here like to criticize regardless of having any real knowledge. Just opinions and a forum to convey them

The ship has turned, and the trim is balanced. This is a transitional year and the future is bright.

In comment 14356029 bluepepper said:

Quote:

weight to the "bad egg" theory of the Giants struggles. Fine if fans do that I suppose but my sense is Gettleman is a big believer too.

Accumulation of talent - whether at the player or coaching level - trumps "culture" any day of the week.

Long Term: Cautiously Optimistic

I like somethings Gettleman does and not others.
I think cleaning house was the right thing.
On the fence about his team building. Some good some bad.

With a few more decisions on the good side, this team can come back strong. But a few too many decisions on the bad side and we slide back into the abyss.

In the very long term, this team still has the same ownership that doesn't know how to sustain success. So the team's fortunes will rise at times, and crash at others.

But we seem to be strategically confused with Eli-wco. I'm guessing there is an analytics moron (Mara, Tisch, advisor) caught up on QB completion as some important metrics - we keep hearing it from the Giants. It's not, only winning is. It's like Macnamara in Vietnam, as if meeting some statistical goal leads to success.

In comment 14355955 allstarjim said:

Quote:

After the draft we had last year, I don't know what to say. And Shurmur's offense was a 1000% better than McAdoo's. And I'm just talking about the offense, I know PS did have the benefit of Saquon. But play design was better, blocking was better. Everything was better, and McAdoo still sucks.

There are a couple guys we have shown interest in that worry me but yeah last years draft was on the level of 2007 with the chance to be even better. Lets see how McIntosh works out (high hopes for him too).

I think Gettleman has a vision for the type of team he wants to build. Im willing to wait out the ugly duckling phase growing pains to get there.

Its a big overhaul from the last administration. Got to give it time

If the Giants end up with Haskins or Rosen on draft day then I will be very optimistic about the future.

It all depends on the draft.

If we go QB in Round One this year, my heart will sink and I will pout for years as we flail away with a dude who's not ready for prime time.

If we go ER, LB and/or OL in Rounds One and Two this year, then the outlook will be bright for 2020 - when we should go all in for one of the 17 draftable QBs who are each better than any of the ones available in this year's draft

DG has been straight forward and honest with us, since he took over as GM. He has told us his plan in building the run game. He is going into a draft that is full of DL and OL talent. I think after this draft the Giant will 'Be able to run the ball, stop the run and rush the passer'. Yes...he will get our future QB, but will choose wisely.
What I like mostly about the direction the Giants are going is the change in culture.

In comment 14356017 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 14355998 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 14355979 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 14355924 UConn4523 said: Quote: That said, if you don't see how we just took a giant step forward this offseason, than I really don't know what to tell you. You make that sound like it's so readily apparent, and I'm not sure why. In terms of the long-term, yeah, they project to have a ton of salary cap space, but in terms of on-field, the defense is a tear down. The ideal scenario is that all of last year's rookies play even better and the injured players they count as additions show they're 100% healthy, but player development isn't just a static upward line on a chart. Because it is. We are in 100% better shape than we were this time last year. Got rid of bad eggs, brought in assets to use on draft day, freed up tons of cap, and seem to be building a better culture. Is any of this untrue? The freed up tons of cap in 2020, not this year. They have the potential to get better. It's all wishful thinking. They were a bottom 5 defense last year sticking with that side of the ball, 27th in sacks. How are they better? They played worse as a defense after "getting rid of bad eggs". They brought in one young safety, one old safety, and lost a bunch of role players who played a lot of snaps. I'd be happy to be hopeful if I could nail down one thing they got better at on defense. For all the talk about having a safety that might be able to cover, if they don't have a pass rush, it won't amount to much.

Don't know what to tell you then. I can't predict who they pick, one would assume a pass rusher is at the top of the list. Kind of defeats the purpose of this thread if we had all the answers already.

I'm hopeful that the moves made to free up future cap space, get rid of problematic or underperforming players, and increase our draft equity will put us in a much better position to win. If you don't, that's fine.

and this team sucked for most of my first 22 years on the planet and it ingrained in me a true pessimism that it took 2 Super Bowls in 86 and 90 wins to clear out.

Then came the crappy 90s and the old pessimism reared back up, usually after weird losses to the Eagles but culminating with the 49ers playoff loss in 2002. By that point the Parcells years had faded and I was back to expecting bad fortune at every turn

But 2007 and 2011 changed that all for me. I'm now an optimist. It's almost hard for me to say that but at this point I'm trusting the process - and I haven't lost sleep or broken a chair or yelled at my wife after a tough Giants loss in about 12 years now.

with so many old guys is curious at best. 3/5 of the offensive line appears to be ok but there's a gaping hole at RT and center is unknown IMO. And who's to say we won't have a Stewart or Omameh out of this year's free agent class? Short term - we're likely to be a 5-6 win team this year. Long term? Hard to say until they get a QB in place. And that's only the hardest single thing to figure out in the sport.

.

But more pessimistic right now. I think the organization waited too long to move on from Reese. Then when they did, the GM search seemed largely pre-determined. That is largely disheartening.

I do like some moves that were made, like addressing the Oline. I thought moving on from OBJ was the right move, though one could question whether the return was sufficient.

Overall, I think the 2018 offseason was a large turning point one way or the other, and the Giants chose a more win now path. Obviously that didn't work and one could argue that Giants now recognize that, but I still question the direction. Jettisoning some old pieces, but then bringing in aging vets on larger than expected contracts. I also fear the Giants will reach for a qb this year out of desperation. I also question the wisdom of building around a running back in the modern NFL.

I think if the Giants nail the next qb pick, a lot will fall into place. I think the Oline also needs go gel and we need to see the emergence of some young guys on both the O and D lines. But until that time, I am more pessimistic than optimistic.

Can't deal with pessimism. What the hell fun is that. You're basically connected to defeatism and that's BS.

I have faith in DG and PS.

In comment 14355972 Bill L said:

Quote:

Honestly believe that Haskins stalls us...not good enough to be elite but maybe can be serviceable. Taking away the elite defender at #6 is a serious hit with the additional ramification of potentially giving us a lesser defender at #17 and no decent offensive lineman. Honestly believe that Rosen sets us back. We put a lot of eggs on him and he's gone in a year or two. Honestly believe that passing on a QB until 202 lets us get our ducks in a row, obtain the best of possible QB's, and jumps starts us, without Eli but with what Eli's salary (and Jenkins et al) buys us. So, how I feel is very dependent upon the choice DG makes in April.

+1

I really believe Gettleman is going to build a team like the 86 Giants again.

Have a superstar WR and SS who want huge $$$? Too bad - see you later. Even if you're the most popular guys on the team. I love it. You don't fit. He is going to relentlessly build his style of team even as dopes trying to fill out their fantasy rosters wonder what his plan is.

We WILL have a dominant running team with a great D, or we'll die trying. It's what wins in the Northeast, it's what wins in the NFL and it's the style of football I love to watch. There is no answer to it. Let everyone else run the spread basketball on grass bullshit.

This will be The Saquon Barkley Show behind the best OLine in the league very soon and there isn't a damn thing anyone will be able to do about it. And if Barkley gets hurt, the backup RB will come in and play well too. F it.

in their salary structure. It's obvious by who they've released or traded ( Vernon, Snacks, OBJ, Collins)

This is probably Jenkins' last year.

Ogletree will have to take a paycut next year, if he wants to stay.

Eli will probably be gone.

If the Giants are successful finding/drafting a QB, ER, QB, CB, they'll have a much younger, much more financially efficient roster

and building the lines. This is how you win. We have a generational RB with a much improved OL, and young and improving front 7 on D, we're coming off of a strong draft, and we have a lot of picks in this draft. We have an experienced, aging QB, plenty good enough to hold down the fort until we draft/trade for his successor.

I like Peppers -- I like Zeitler

I've even been persuaded that the trade was an addition in the right direction

Let's see what the future brings -- if you can't be optimistic now -- waiting for 12 draft pics to be chosen -- what's the point????


By the way -- I'll be very surprised if the Giants pick a QB early this year -- very very surprised -- and I'm ok with it

De-Fense!!!!

with 12 picks in this draft, we should be able to get AT LEAST 6 solid players. I'm hoping more like 8 can make our roster better.

I believe in the coaching. The talk from Gettleman is what I want to hear, and so far he's been improving the OL. I like the direction we seem to be going.

Take me back to power-running and a fierce defensive front 7 - think Keith Hamilton-era defense.

In comment 14356109 mittenedman said:

Quote:

I really believe Gettleman is going to build a team like the 86 Giants again. Have a superstar WR and SS who want huge $$$? Too bad - see you later. Even if you're the most popular guys on the team. I love it. You don't fit. He is going to relentlessly build his style of team even as dopes trying to fill out their fantasy rosters wonder what his plan is. We WILL have a dominant running team with a great D, or we'll die trying. It's what wins in the Northeast, it's what wins in the NFL and it's the style of football I love to watch. There is no answer to it. Let everyone else run the spread basketball on grass bullshit. This will be The Saquon Barkley Show behind the best OLine in the league very soon and there isn't a damn thing anyone will be able to do about it. And if Barkley gets hurt, the backup RB will come in and play well too. F it.

Agree! Regarding your last statement, I would consider Sanders at Penn St. He has some similar attributes of Saquon, but less talented. Would make a good back up in case Saquon gets injured.

we have some good pieces in place, we're wiping the contract issues, putting a new culture in place and we've had 1 good draft. 2 more good drafts is all it takes for us to compete at the highest level.

i do think we'll win more games this year with an improved OL. so my only concern is that i don't think we'll be drafting this high again next year.

In comment 14356120 Old Dirty said:

Quote:

with 12 picks in this draft, we should be able to get AT LEAST 6 solid players. I'm hoping more like 8 can make our roster better. I believe in the coaching. The talk from Gettleman is what I want to hear, and so far he's been improving the OL. I like the direction we seem to be going. Take me back to power-running and a fierce defensive front 7 - think Keith Hamilton-era defense.

I would be extremely disappointed if we used 12 picks this year. Consolidation to either move up or get 2020 picks would be my choice.

Yes, I have a high regard for DG. I even like that he cuts bait with his own mistakes.

But like anything, my feelings means jack....if results do not change.

This draft could be viewed as one of the most important in franchise history.


I trust 3/5 of the OL and can live with 4/5 of it....but a RT is needed...an experienced one.

Pmist____2019___6-10___No draft can fix this roster
Pmist____2020___5-11___Eli's last, BBI complains he had no weapons
Pmist____2021___4-12___New QB, Barkley extended for record$
Omist____2022___8-8___Barkley injured, Defense finally competes
Omist____2023___11-5___Playoffs? P-P-Playoffs?

I think if DG nails this draft the Giants will surprise people in 2019.

When your team has 3 and 4 win seasons, you have to make big sweeping changes and that's just what they are doing.

But what are you expecting? Are you saying that you expect the team to be better than last year? Are you betting your mortgage that this team will have more than 6 wins? 8 wins? How about not finishing at the bottom of NFC East? I am sure no fans here would make that bet, so what does being optimistic mean?

And if we eek out a couple of more wins than last year, but still has no QB with Eli retiring, then what?

... optimistic.

I'm actually surprised at how heavily this thread wound up weighing on the optimistic end...

Interesting.

In comment 14356267 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

I'm actually surprised at how heavily this thread wound up weighing on the optimistic end... Interesting.

Well why don't you write a dissertation to tell us about it?

In comment 14356269 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14356267 arcarsenal said: Quote: I'm actually surprised at how heavily this thread wound up weighing on the optimistic end... Interesting. Well why don't you write a dissertation to tell us about it?

Only if you'll not misquote Mark Twain again in response. :)

I'll also need about 3 more cups of coffee.

In comment 14356278 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

Well why don't you write a dissertation to tell us about it? Only if you'll not misquote Mark Twain again in response. :) I'll also need about 3 more cups of coffee.

Did I? Was it book? Or was it really Samuel Clemens? ;)

In comment 14356294 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14356278 arcarsenal said: Quote: Well why don't you write a dissertation to tell us about it? Only if you'll not misquote Mark Twain again in response. :) I'll also need about 3 more cups of coffee. Did I? Was it book? Or was it really Samuel Clemens? ;)

I saw in the original thread that someone posted that you made a mis-attribution and that the person who really said (wrote) that was Blaise Pascal.

A quick Google search shows very limited infromation on the quote but I did see a couple places that said something like "Variously attributed to Twain, Pascal [see BBI,for example], or Benjamin Franklin. Given that none of those three were contemporaries of the others, it's possible that it was truly Pascal and subsequently stolen by Franklin and then Twain.

I think they re getting their quarterback this draft

I'm mildly optimistic.

Unlike a few here, I feel DG knows what he is doing. I'd have prefered Eli being let go, but he's getting paid so...

I like what they are doing with the oline - now finish it.

I like that they said the defense sucks and it will get fixed.

I did not like OBJ being traded, but I get it. I would have prefered keeping Landon Collins, but not at $14 mill per.

So I will remain somewhat optimistic.

There is nowhere to go but up. Trying a new direction is the only option we had. And I'm hopeful that the change to the locker room is for the better.

In comment 14356267 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

I'm actually surprised at how heavily this thread wound up weighing on the optimistic end... Interesting.

Pessimists are louder

I'm a FAN. I have HOPE. I didn't like OBJ's mouth.

I'm a BIG FAN of lockerroom culture and leadership.

In DG I Trust, at least for 2019. :)

and the team history, especially with respect to rebuilds, is irrelevant.

Irrelevant!

Suck it

That's why I fall so hard when we shit the bed!

I'm getting older. Don't know how much time I have for another rebuild!

and fortunately that was 1 area where Gettleman had success last year.

Stockpiling draft picks is never a bad idea during a rebuild, but obviously you need to get them right to get out of the rebuild. I'll be optimistic on that front until we see otherwise. If they can add another 3 or 4 starters like they did last year this ship can turn quickly. If they can do that while also adding a QB (or future draft capital for that same intent) it can be a team built for sustained success.

The Eli stuff is a lot of noise about something with very few good alternatives. As someone who believes they would have taken a QB if there were a consensus last year, I hope they find that consensus soon and set the franchise up for the future. In the meantime I love the idea of using the rest of the draft picks (+FA $) to finally start building areas of the neglect as the Colts did last year. If we can hit on a couple picks the way they did, I don't think a similar unexpected good season is out of the question.

...but not too sure when the train is going to reach the station.

Try to be realistic, but it seems like some things are being addressed, and that others will be. That's all you can ask for. From there it's about making the plays on the field, and we all know how many varying factors go into things falling just right to get to the mountain top. More than just personnel.

I just dont think they have enough talent

Who the F knows at this stage?

Gettleman has made a lot of moves, but so far what do they mean?

The game is on the field and that's where Gettleman will be judged.

He's got two more years MAX to turn this shit show around. Same with the Head Coach. Then we can all decide together whether we've all turned optimistic or not.