In Gettleman & Shurmur I Trust: 2019

When he's just going to become a free agent at the end of this year anyway?

The Gettleman-Shurmur squad is 5-11. Shurmur has now had three losing seasons in three seasons as a head coach. Gettleman was at home watching old western movies before he was brought back into the Giants family.

Hopefully the numerous moves will pay off. But until we see the results on the field, I am skeptical.

In comment 14356339 Leg of Theismann said:

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When he's just going to become a free agent at the end of this year anyway?

New England was the "rumor" and he could be part of a package deal too. I just think he is tradeable due to the Tate signing. But hey, I'm just a guy with a handle not an insider. LOL

In comment 14356339 Leg of Theismann said:

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When he's just going to become a free agent at the end of this year anyway?

Sign and trade?

I like a lot of what they have done and do not like some others. It is too soon. They inherited 3-13, bad locker room and and a declining beloved 2 time SB winning QB. They need to show improvement this year and Eli must not look worse. If they fail at the evaluation of the QB on the team, they need to go. They hitched their carriage to Eli, they need to be right.

i'm not sure why. At best this is an incomplete.

There seems to be a lot of cheer leading and for Shurmur it makes even less sense. The guy has been nothing short of terrible as a head coach.

Your barrier for trust is very low.

In comment 14356339 Leg of Theismann said:

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When he's just going to become a free agent at the end of this year anyway?

A contender like NE could pull the trigger for an NFL proven NFL receiver over a unproven rookie.

We need to start trusting the "plan" (or the "process") because we need some hope, and Dave G. has done some things very well (putting us in a good cap situation for 2020, for example) and has shown great courage in making decisions for the long term that have predictably angered much of the fan base.

Our three year rebuild (now four?), we are only in the second year. Also, how much of Dave G's mistakes are really Mara mistakes? As to Shurmur, he took a 3-13 team and after an agonizing first half of the season, got them playing much better with a bad O-line and a poor defense. He deserves another year, plus his value will be with the next QB, so we shouldn't be hasty.

I'm with the OP: I still have some trust . . . and hope.

Your post reminded me of a Sunday school song we learned growing up in church.

Now, as to what you said, honestly, I don’t know either guy that well. I do like DG so I can trust him easier than PS because I like how aggressive he is to make things happen (unlike Reese). Yes, he has made a few mistakes but signing Tate is not one of them. I’m okay with the trade of OBJ too.

As for PS, the jury is still out for me and I don’t like his clock management skills but I’m more than willing to give him the benefit of doubt and give him more time. They win 5 and it easily could have been several more, not to mention trading off several starters around mideason.

So, your post is noted but for now both gentlemen are on probation with me, especially the coach.

I don't trust Gettleman with FA, but there's little doubt last year's draft is one of the better ones we've had in some time.

I'm frankly excited with who we're going to get at 6. There are some studs, if someone takes Haskins before us.

not saying it was you who said them, but they were written a lot as well.

i don't trust that any of these people know better than you or i. and so far nothing has shown me they are deserving of my trust.

i've seen way too many professionals in all different professions have no idea what they are doing. football is no different in my mind.

In comment 14356394 islander1 said:

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I don't trust Gettleman with FA, but there's little doubt last year's draft is one of the better ones we've had in some time. I'm frankly excited with who we're going to get at 6. There are some studs, if someone takes Haskins before us.

I think some of DG's UFA signings LAST YEAR had to do with building the lockerroom and mentoring Barkley (RB Stewart), as well as giving old man Eli some pass protection with Solder.

I don't think any of us could have been so sure that RT E. Flowers would flop that bad; no one could have imagine veteran OG P. Omameh would simply be putrid, like he didn't care almost??; and, we did lose OC Hilapio early. Maybe if we had a bit more luck on the OL we'd have fared a shade better.

But in truth, DG inherited crap and maybe over-estimated the talent a shade.

But if QB Donaldson flourishes this year for the Jets, and the Giants flop again which is possible, well DG is in some hot water perhaps.

Tate is 31 SS is a kid

In comment 14356414 GiantsFan84 said:

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not saying it was you who said them, but they were written a lot as well. i don't trust that any of these people know better than you or i. and so far nothing has shown me they are deserving of my trust. i've seen way too many professionals in all different professions have no idea what they are doing. football is no different in my mind.

"In Reese I Trusted" - until I couldn't anymore. When TC was pushed out, I felt he should have had one more year. Maybe we kept Reese one year too long as well, or two.

My thing here is to really just say "Guys, as a fan, lets Trust the process, and pray DG has a great draft" - cause if DG messes up, especially if he moves up for a QB and the QB doesn't pan out, this team could be the Cleveland Browns re-incarnated.

Again, I just think whomever we take at #6 and #17 has to be a solid starter as a rookie, at least at some point as a rookie. And neither will be a QB, you watch.

You look for in an RT. In certain offenses maybe but I think DG is looking for that power base guy like Ford.

If we didnt have Solder he'd be a very high option IMO. But Jonah isnt that once every few year type that has BOTH the power base and the dancing elephant feet (like a Tyron Smith, Orlando Pace, Ogden etc.)

In comment 14356438 Pan-handler said:

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You look for in an RT. In certain offenses maybe but I think DG is looking for that power base guy like Ford. If we didnt have Solder he'd be a very high option IMO. But Jonah isnt that once every few year type that has BOTH the power base and the dancing elephant feet (like a Tyron Smith, Orlando Pace, Ogden etc.)

True, Jonah is a "pure technician" type, and he'll use his hands, feet and body lean to get his man under control. I would not take him over a top DL guy / edge rusher like an Allen if he fell.

However, in my dream scenario, if we traded down with say Denver for their #10; and their #1 next year (big smile) and Jonah was there at #10 we have drafted our RT at value.

More realistically, I can see us grabbing the best player available and I'm not sure any of us truly know whom that may be at this point. I just pray we don't trade up for Haskins and give away the farm.

In comment 14356348 Les in TO said:

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The Gettleman-Shurmur squad is 5-11. Shurmur has now had three losing seasons in three seasons as a head coach. Gettleman was at home watching old western movies before he was brought back into the Giants family. Hopefully the numerous moves will pay off. But until we see the results on the field, I am skeptical.

It cracks me up how you bring up shurmurs win loss resume, but no mention of Gettlemans resume. Oh, that's right because that doesn't fit your narrative. The best you can do is say he was at home watching old westerns.

In comment 14356363 NoGainDayne said:

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i'm not sure why. At best this is an incomplete. There seems to be a lot of cheer leading and for Shurmur it makes even less sense. The guy has been nothing short of terrible as a head coach. Your barrier for trust is very low.

Terrible is a little strong. I think his biggest issues is clock management. Now this is a pretty big issue. However Im a little old school. I think the head coach should be just that. Not also being the OC. Have someone you believe in to call the plays and then you can be the game manager. Just my 2 cents

And have very rarely done it except for Eli who was considered the 'perfect' QB for TC's system. Will Haskins carry such an impact grade to consider it? Obviously it wont be to move to #1 but maybe #4 as was rumored by DaveTe.

Now regarding Jonah . I love him at LT. Love him. 3rd degree Black belt technician. But with Barkley at the center of the offense I can see why we'd want a Ford or Jawaan Taylor type for RT . That said, Jonah on a trade down would not make me unhappy at all.

J Williams, even from Alabama people. There are some real concerns with him. Stay away in the 1st round.

In comment 14356430 gtt350 said:

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Tate is 31 SS is a kid

Shep will likely command a higher per year salary on his next contract. He was also very close to Odell and might be perceived that Odell's behavior wore off on Shep. There was a game last year that Shep was seen punching the bench. DG is trying to correct the culture of the team. Shep is likely not on the 2020 Giants roster either by walking in FA or traded.

. He can produce it's not like we have a stable of receivers

In comment 14356507 ATL_Giants said:

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J Williams, even from Alabama people. There are some real concerns with him. Stay away in the 1st round.

Good to know. I mean, I can only go by what I read really and the little I watched of Alabama games where you didn't hear his name called. I'm NO EXPERT.

bottom line: please DG, with God's help, just draft IMPACT FREAKING PLAYERS! Please. I don't care what the position is but here was one of my earlier projections:

#6 D. White, LB - fast and is a four down LB who starts game 1 and plays in numerous probowls and such.
#17 Hockenson, TE - assuming he falls or the top DL or RT if the grade warrants it.

You only trade Sterling IF you intend to move up OR you can get value for him like New England's #2 pick in second round. This assumes the Giants have an issue with his "personality" like they likely did with OBJ.

thus far. No doom and gloom but very much a "prove it" going into next season.

In comment 14356579 SGMen said:

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In comment 14356507 ATL_Giants said: Quote: J Williams, even from Alabama people. There are some real concerns with him. Stay away in the 1st round. Good to know. I mean, I can only go by what I read really and the little I watched of Alabama games where you didn't hear his name called. I'm NO EXPERT. bottom line: please DG, with God's help, just draft IMPACT FREAKING PLAYERS! Please. I don't care what the position is but here was one of my earlier projections: #6 D. White, LB - fast and is a four down LB who starts game 1 and plays in numerous probowls and such. #17 Hockenson, TE - assuming he falls or the top DL or RT if the grade warrants it. You only trade Sterling IF you intend to move up OR you can get value for him like New England's #2 pick in second round. This assumes the Giants have an issue with his "personality" like they likely did with OBJ.

At #6 and JtGiants alluded to this if you go D you want a guy who is gonna impact the passing game greatly.

White isnt that guy with that kind of value at 6. On a trade down maybe.

On Hockenson, I dont see it having the kind of value that he would in lets say a Belichick system. Especially with Ellsion and Engram here already. Giants will probably value a viable downfield threat as higher value.

is an old bumbling dotard who hasn't a clue what he's doing is such a ridiculous narrative. the dude is like 2 years older than belichick. give me a fucking break. the giants won 2 superbowls when he was director of pro personnel. give him a chance. it took 6-7 years to wreck, it was never going to be a one-year fix.

In comment 14356672 japanhead said:

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is an old bumbling dotard who hasn't a clue what he's doing is such a ridiculous narrative. the dude is like 2 years older than belichick. give me a fucking break. the giants won 2 superbowls when he was director of pro personnel. give him a chance. it took 6-7 years to wreck, it was never going to be a one-year fix.

Same old same old. BB has the top analytics team in football working for him. Our GM insults publicly insults analytics. Difference between being old and innovative and old and just... old...

Another expert GM wannabe

I always tell people who work for me, the most important thing to do when you get in a hole is stop digging.

Gettleman to his credit has gotten there.

I'm hopeful he's ushering in an era of value-based acquisitions and a young and healthy core of players.

But I think shurmur and bettcher are professional and capable. I wouldn’t want shurmur to have too much influence in the roster or personnel game but I think the offense and qb is in good hands with shurmur. Could be worse... we’ve seen that.

But i find his post awful. As someone said-- he said this thread creation is like a cheerleading thread.

when imo it should be a bit closer to back in 1978 when the fans chanted "we've had enough!"

OFC we aren't at that point yet. ANd I remain hopeful. A good draft and then either this year or next get a good QB-- we'll be fine.

I realize fans like the OP doesn't want to criticize as he says that when criticized "every move that gets criticized becomes tiresome." I am disappointed in any fan that thinks in the context that he does. For me what's grown tiresome is the losing and then to have to hear cheerleading. I'm disappointed that some fans seem okay with that's okay to lose. ANd if the GM makes mistakes, then that's okay too. I don't agree with that philosophy. WIth me if they are winning you don't nitpick. If they stink for a long time you do unless you see a path forward.

But have fun. Looking forward to the draft and the start of football down the road.

In comment 14356841 giantstock said:

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But i find his post awful. As someone said-- he said this thread creation is like a cheerleading thread. when imo it should be a bit closer to back in 1978 when the fans chanted "we've had enough!" OFC we aren't at that point yet. ANd I remain hopeful. A good draft and then either this year or next get a good QB-- we'll be fine. I realize fans like the OP doesn't want to criticize as he says that when criticized "every move that gets criticized becomes tiresome." I am disappointed in any fan that thinks in the context that he does. For me what's grown tiresome is the losing and then to have to hear cheerleading. I'm disappointed that some fans seem okay with that's okay to lose. ANd if the GM makes mistakes, then that's okay too. I don't agree with that philosophy. WIth me if they are winning you don't nitpick. If they stink for a long time you do unless you see a path forward. But have fun. Looking forward to the draft and the start of football down the road.

Losing sucks. But DG and PS have been in charge for ONE YEAR. I actually hold ownership (John Mara, especially) much more liable for the current state of the NY Giants.
The fact that this team didn't quit last year and actually played better the 2nd half of the season despite injuries (OBJ) and lack of talent on the OL, Defense, gives me hope.

What I love most about DG is if he makes a mistake he fixes it. You can't change the past and you have to be PRESENT & HONEST to GROW. So far, I see that with DG.

Now, we MUST have a super-solid, smart, value driven DRAFT. We can't trade up for a QB and miss. We can't trade up for say DT R. Williams, Alabama, by giving up a lot when we could grab DL E. Oliver who is also going to be a great DL, IMHO. This is just my gut but I think DG is a SMART guy who will do what he must to build locker-room character and make "best choices" for "long term" interest and not just appease fans.

Shurmur, well, the jury is still out as he hasn't won a thing at the NFL level - YET.

I don't think any move Gettleman has made with a vet, other than cutting Flowers and Omameh, has been anything better than awful. And he was the one who signed Omameh in the first place. The Beckham trade will go down with the Red Sox selling Babe Ruth's contract as the worst deals in sports history.

And of our 12 draft picks, 9 are close to worthless--if we draft well the last 9 picks will turn into one starter and a couple decent backups.

I'll give Shurmur that the team didn't quit on him after the 1-7 start. But he blew games with his play calling and clock management last year, and if he were a decent coach he'd have figured out how to keep Beckham and Barkly productive together.

Let me ask you this. Many of us thought G-men were going to stink this past year. DG didn’t, correct? SO he could have made trade earlier such as got more value, correct? SO in this scenario because YOU may have had an over-inflated view last year of the Giants it means many of us that didn’t MUST follow your advice to “not complain?” I say complain because when you said “. . .and critiquing all his moves to date can get tiresome.” It doesn’t get tiresome for many of us that knew before the season started that DG was incredibly stupid for believing in the 2018 team.

As for FA’s – you are doubling-down on providing an excuse and let him off the hook for his 1 year of incompetency. For example you say – “. . .He over-paid N. Solder, for sure; however, he had limited choice here.” BUT THE FACT IS THAT HE HAD CHOICES. You’re excusing his overpayment and getting an old LT for a 5-11 team. ****He had alternatives and instead he could have gotten TWO YOUNG (or at least younger or even cheaper) quality (or decent enough) OL last year instead of extremely over-paying for one and getting crap with the other. If he would have been competent he’d have gotten TWO “decent enough” OL in FA last year or traded etc and it would be possible that we wouldn’t need a RT in the draft. OS because dg doesn’t understand simple math that TWO potentially younger OLinemen that are decent enough to pretty good is better than getting one pretty good LT and one lousy guard.

You seem to want to sweep his mistakes under the rug when you say things like “he fixes his mistakes.” Well how about this novel thought—“DO your fucking job and don’t be so incompetent early on in which you wind up having to chase your tail because you were so ignorant to start the season.” I mean – c’mon am I wrong? It was OBVIOUS this team wasn’t going to be good last year yet I’m sure there were posters just like yourself spouting last year “let’s give it time and see what happens.” Again you say “he fixed issues” I say he made the mistake of not fixing them earlier because it was so damn obvious.

For me it is mind-boggling how smart guys like you and others for example excuse the Solder blunder when there were alternatives. EXTEMELEY OVERPAYING for an older LT when we aren’t ready to win last year or this year and possibly in 2020 is NOT SMART. It shows a lack of common sense.

And I’d like to ask you another question. In your initial post YOU said trade Shephard and get a 2nd rd pick. You seem to thinks is worth a 2nd rd pick. Will you blame Dg if he doesn’t get that pick for him? That’s part of your “trust” in DG and “belief” that we’ll do well ultimately in the draft. SO will you blame him or just again give him an excuse? I happen to think you are way wrong even on this. I don’t see a 2nd rd pick. I had proposed to start the year to trade him or trade him before last year’s draft. But anyways this is an example of why I disliked your post.

And this brings up a final point. It should have been obvious that the giants were going to stink. Thus trading for an average to sub-par ILB in Ogletree when you are in rebuild mode in which you TRADE DRAFT picks is another example of someone that made the decision lacks common sense. I mentioned this before and 1 poster sort of tried to misrepresent things slightly just so he could justify DG by saying he Ogletree is young 26-27 at time of trade. Sure- but in actuality he is27 in September 2018. Which means by the time the G-men will be any good he’ll be 30. His cap hit at this moment is $$11.75m. A guy lie Jordan Hicks juts signed for less and is younger and is better.

You say DG is a smart guy. I’m more inclined to believe he’s an idiot. While you say you MUST trust I say I HAVE TO hope.

In comment 14356438 Pan-handler said:

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You look for in an RT. In certain offenses maybe but I think DG is looking for that power base guy like Ford. If we didnt have Solder he'd be a very high option IMO. But Jonah isnt that once every few year type that has BOTH the power base and the dancing elephant feet (like a Tyron Smith, Orlando Pace, Ogden etc.)

I've seen a few reports on Jonah where they believe his best position in the NFL may be at guard.

In comment 14356424 SGMen said:

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In comment 14356394 islander1 said: Quote: I don't trust Gettleman with FA, but there's little doubt last year's draft is one of the better ones we've had in some time. I'm frankly excited with who we're going to get at 6. There are some studs, if someone takes Haskins before us. I think some of DG's UFA signings LAST YEAR had to do with building the lockerroom and mentoring Barkley (RB Stewart), as well as giving old man Eli some pass protection with Solder. I don't think any of us could have been so sure that RT E. Flowers would flop that bad; no one could have imagine veteran OG P. Omameh would simply be putrid, like he didn't care almost??; and, we did lose OC Hilapio early. Maybe if we had a bit more luck on the OL we'd have fared a shade better. But in truth, DG inherited crap and maybe over-estimated the talent a shade. But if QB Donaldson flourishes this year for the Jets, and the Giants flop again which is possible, well DG is in some hot water perhaps.

I was apprehensive about Solder because if there was one thing Reese was good at, it was figuring out when a player was about to massively decline.

I feel like Belicheck has this (among many other) talents. Although I can live with Solder, I can't help thinking he's not going to pan out for the money. He did improve over the season, and he's likely helping Hernandez who is a grade A road grader so I will wait and see how he performs this coming season. Perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised.

- Omameh to me was the worst offense, he had basically lost his job in Jacksonville IIRC (and I may not) even before they signed Norwell.

- Stewart, I mean that's a kind of deal that's not a franchise breaker. It wasn't that much cap space.

I feel like if Gettleman can have a couple more drafts like last year, we'll be in good shape. The prospect of picking a new QB is the only scary part.
For the record - since I only rejoined this sub last week after a layoff going waaay back - I was and am fully on the pro-Saquon bandwagon. I'm not convinced Darnold is going to pan out to be anything near a franchise QB.
After Mayfield went first, the pick for me (idiot that I am?) was always going to be Saquon.

In comment 14356883 islander1 said:

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In comment 14356424 SGMen said: Quote: In comment 14356394 islander1 said: Quote: I don't trust Gettleman with FA, but there's little doubt last year's draft is one of the better ones we've had in some time. I'm frankly excited with who we're going to get at 6. There are some studs, if someone takes Haskins before us. I think some of DG's UFA signings LAST YEAR had to do with building the lockerroom and mentoring Barkley (RB Stewart), as well as giving old man Eli some pass protection with Solder. I don't think any of us could have been so sure that RT E. Flowers would flop that bad; no one could have imagine veteran OG P. Omameh would simply be putrid, like he didn't care almost??; and, we did lose OC Hilapio early. Maybe if we had a bit more luck on the OL we'd have fared a shade better. But in truth, DG inherited crap and maybe over-estimated the talent a shade. But if QB Donaldson flourishes this year for the Jets, and the Giants flop again which is possible, well DG is in some hot water perhaps. I was apprehensive about Solder because if there was one thing Reese was good at, it was figuring out when a player was about to massively decline. I feel like Belicheck has this (among many other) talents. Although I can live with Solder, I can't help thinking he's not going to pan out for the money. He did improve over the season, and he's likely helping Hernandez who is a grade A road grader so I will wait and see how he performs this coming season. Perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised. - Omameh to me was the worst offense, he had basically lost his job in Jacksonville IIRC (and I may not) even before they signed Norwell. - Stewart, I mean that's a kind of deal that's not a franchise breaker. It wasn't that much cap space. I feel like if Gettleman can have a couple more drafts like last year, we'll be in good shape. The prospect of picking a new QB is the only scary part. For the record - since I only rejoined this sub last week after a layoff going waaay back - I was and am fully on the pro-Saquon bandwagon. I'm not convinced Darnold is going to pan out to be anything near a franchise QB. After Mayfield went first, the pick for me (idiot that I am?) was always going to be Saquon.

If the Giants had been "lucky" and had not signed Solder; had kept & lived with Flowers at LT; and, not signed Omameh or Stewart, well, would we really have been worse? We signed Solder cause we knew flowers sucked, I get it.

But we also signed Solder to help protect Eli as management thought he had some "gas left in the ole tank" and such. Eli could play well IF he had better protection and a stronger run game.

Its a shame this draft doesn't have a bona-fide LT prospect, a guy who could start game 1 and excel. Though such a guy would likely go top 3, not #6.

As noted, we need a few more drafts like our 2017 and we will be fine. I am putting trust in DG to get the job done. If we struggle playing young guys on defense early I can live with that, losses or not.

But if we struggle cause the OL can't protect; cause the guys we drafted aren't ready or just flat out suck; cause Eli just can't do it at all; and, worse case if we draft a QB #1 who ain't ready (maybe ever...) well we will be the Browns 2.0, maybe worse. I pray that does not happen.

In comment 14356361 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 14356339 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: When he's just going to become a free agent at the end of this year anyway? Sign and trade?

If its a "sign & trade" type deal, well, I think it would have to happen BEFORE draft day, of course. Not sure that happens much in the NFL?