Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Snacks wants more money now!

Joey in VA : 3/25/2019 7:07 pm
I would assume this is why he was had for so cheap. A soon to be 31 year old who refused the leadership mantle and has to be managed practice wise because of his knees wants more cash. Color me shocked.
Dummy - ( New Window )
Why is he a dummy for wanting more money?  
UConn4523 : 3/25/2019 7:10 pm : link
That said itís likely a reason why we shipped him, along with the knees. I think he would have been cut if we didnít trade him.
The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
Go Terps : 3/25/2019 7:11 pm : link
Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.
RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
Hammer : 3/25/2019 7:19 pm : link
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.


While your point is valid, I think that Snacks and Jenkins lived up to their contracts.
RE: RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
BleedBlue : 3/25/2019 7:22 pm : link
In comment 14356655 Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.



While your point is valid, I think that Snacks and Jenkins lived up to their contracts.


Jenkins has been very good for us and in 16 was regarded as on eo the best in the game. Snacks is a VERY good player. Those two signings were awesome.
RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
Sean : 3/25/2019 7:24 pm : link
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.


I think the Colts have handled their cap space brilliantly this year. Donít spend for the sake of spending.
I don't agree  
Go Terps : 3/25/2019 7:29 pm : link
Both Harrison and Jenkins have been part of problem regarding an absolutely pathetic culture around the team. The Giants are 19-29 since 2016, and these two guys are absolutely a part of the reason why they've been terrible. If you could go back in time there is no way you make those signings again. No way.
RE: RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
Go Terps : 3/25/2019 7:30 pm : link
In comment 14356660 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.



I think the Colts have handled their cap space brilliantly this year. Donít spend for the sake of spending.


I completely agree.
RE: Why is he a dummy for wanting more money?  
Joey in VA : 3/25/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14356647 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
That said itís likely a reason why we shipped him, along with the knees. I think he would have been cut if we didnít trade him.
It's just me being dopey.
2016 is a cautionary tale for not building the core of your team w/ FA  
Eric on Li : 3/25/2019 7:38 pm : link
Building a mercenary unit can only last for so long. There's a reason each of those players previous teams let those guys go, and it's because like 90% of FA they had some flaws. The true building block players rarely get there.

That said, each of the individual deals would have been perfectly fine if they had been the final piece on an already good D. It was the sum of all of them needing to make up the majority of an underperforming unit that led to the failure.

If any of those players could have simply been a complimentary pickup a la Antonio Pierce being added to an existing talent pool of Strahan/Osi/Tuck already in place, those signings would have looked a lot better because the results would have been a lot better. Or Barrow getting added to the 2000 defense that already had Hammer, Strahan, Armstead, etc. Or Antrel Rolle/Mike Boley getting added to the team that already had Phillips, Webster, JPP, Tuck, Osi, Joseph. Barrow/Boley/Rolle/Pierce all had their warts as FA, and none were especially cheap to acquire, but they were successful pickups because they joined enough talented players to form a good unit.

That was the failing of the class of 2016. The underlying talent was basically Landon Collins. JPP never returned to form, Hankins, Thompson, and Eli Apple turned into busts. Bromley and Odigizua were already busts. Almost all of Reese's failings go back to poor drafts that didn't seem so bad at the time bc they were masked by 1 or 2 great picks like Odell and Collins.
RE: I don't agree  
FStubbs : 3/25/2019 7:39 pm : link
In comment 14356666 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Both Harrison and Jenkins have been part of problem regarding an absolutely pathetic culture around the team. The Giants are 19-29 since 2016, and these two guys are absolutely a part of the reason why they've been terrible. If you could go back in time there is no way you make those signings again. No way.


Except for 2016, the Giants have been pathetic since Hurricane Sandy. I can't blame them.
RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
DonQuixote : 3/25/2019 7:42 pm : link
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:
Quote:
JThose contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.


I don't think anyone is going to argue that we should throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it. I agree, but not much insight there.
RE: I don't agree  
christian : 3/25/2019 7:43 pm : link
In comment 14356666 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Both Harrison and Jenkins have been part of problem regarding an absolutely pathetic culture around the team. The Giants are 19-29 since 2016, and these two guys are absolutely a part of the reason why they've been terrible. If you could go back in time there is no way you make those signings again. No way.


I think an element of the caution is to invest in guys that fit both your culture and can meet a reasonable projection of productivity.

Mara backed Reese in a corner, and in-turn Reese lowered the bar on fit -- When your boss says "go fix this or else" -- what can you expect?
RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/25/2019 7:47 pm : link
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.


A cautionary tale? Huh? The Giants defense in 2016 went from one of the worst to third best in points allowed and around 11th in yardage allowed. The Giants made the playoffs Vernon, Harrison and Jenkins all made 1st or 2nd team AP All Pro.

You can't do much better than that.

I'd take all of them back over what we had to replace them. The Bucs love JPP with his 12.5 sacks, 20 QB knockdowns and 13 tackles for a loss. They also say he's become a locker room leader who works with the young players.

Harrison, who was released for a 5th round lottery ticket, slipped right into the line at Detroit and their run defense immediately improved.

Jenkins, according to Eric's scouting report, is still one of the best corners in the league.

Vernon was the least, but still an above average DE or rushing LB who others thought enough of to send him to the Pro Bowl. Good for his seven or eight sacks a year.

And tellingly, we haven't replaced JPP or Vernon. Or Harrison unless Tomlinson can fill the big shoes.

And some here want to see Jenkins traded so then will have two unfilled corner positions.

People here just have to get used to the fact that if you're building a good team some players will be overpaid and some underpaid. And that's all right if you win.
christian  
Go Terps : 3/25/2019 7:48 pm : link
Yeah I'm thinking more about Mara than I am Gettleman with regards to next year. This team desperately needs to implement some policies regarding culture and payment structures that clearly have not been there. Maybe they're in the process of doing that, I don't know...but those policies have clearly not been there these past few years.
Whenever the Giants start cutting some of there better players,  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/25/2019 7:50 pm : link
people here start inventing tales of bad sportsmanship, locker room cancers, apathetic, with no evidence at all.
SB 42...  
Go Terps : 3/25/2019 7:52 pm : link
Quote:
People here just have to get used to the fact that if you're building a good team some players will be overpaid and some underpaid. And that's all right if you win.


Except that's not what happened. They had one good year, spent the offseason smelling their own farts, and then completely imploded. Vernon, Jenkins, Snacks, JPP, and later Beckham were all paid to be the foundation...to be leaders...and they all failed utterly miserably. It was an object lesson in how not to run an NFL team.

It continues to surprise me the extent to which people stand up for these guys. They've given us the worst Giants football many of us have seen in our entire lives.
Apple was the 10th overall pick in the draft.  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/25/2019 7:57 pm : link
Nearly everyone agreed that he had a promising rookie year, but he had to learn to stop grabbing.

Giving up on an asset that cost so much in the first half of his third season was way too soon.

The mistake was putting him out on the corner and moving DRC to the slot. DRC, coming off a six pick, All Pro season was pissed that his snaps were reduced so much and Apple was exposed before he was ready. He gave up those two PI calls against the Eagles that cost that game.

The 2017 team was awful because of the offense, not the defense.
SB 42...  
Go Terps : 3/25/2019 8:02 pm : link
This is just my opinion, but I think the constant dividing of this team into offense and defense is part of the cultural problem. Complimentary football is a real thing, and this team has not played it.
.  
Banks : 3/25/2019 8:03 pm : link
with his knees rumored to be a problem and his size this extension is likely his last contract. I can't judge whether he deserves it or not, but they went from giving up 139.3 yards per game (5.32 ypr) to 92.5 (3.76 ypr). He made a difference for sure.
Resse should and easily could have re-signed  
LauderdaleMatty : 3/25/2019 8:08 pm : link
Joseph. Instead he let him go and then needed to pay a lot more for Snacks.

Didnt want Snacks traded but obviously wasnít a total foodball move and he can ask for more. Detroit can say no. Giants ate his bonus so he can sit home and get older. Also this could be a ploy to skip camp. Either way heís Detroitís issue now
RE: Whenever the Giants start cutting some of there better players,  
Joey in VA : 3/25/2019 8:09 pm : link
In comment 14356685 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
Quote:
people here start inventing tales of bad sportsmanship, locker room cancers, apathetic, with no evidence at all.
What false tales? He openly said he didn't want to be a leader, and now he's asking for more money. That's a headache we didn't need honestly. Look, I loved the guy, loved how he played and he was a great interview but something was up last offseason and this appears to be it. I'm reading the tea leaves so to speak, taking what info I know and drawing a conclusion. It was an odd trade, I didn't understand it, but maybe this is why. Is that so wrong of me?
That's right, I forgot the other guy we signed...DRC  
Go Terps : 3/25/2019 8:11 pm : link
He was in 2014, but yeah another great locker room guy. And to think we opted to pay him instead of Joseph...
RE: That's right, I forgot the other guy we signed...DRC  
Joey in VA : 3/25/2019 8:16 pm : link
In comment 14356703 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He was in 2014, but yeah another great locker room guy. And to think we opted to pay him instead of Joseph...
That offseason was a nightmare, I hated that move. Yes, move out your best run stopper for a loud mouth oft injured CB.
I think this for sure  
Matt in SGS : 3/25/2019 8:27 pm : link
Was a big part as to why they traded him when they did. And he signed on with Rosenhaus recently. That was to push for one final new contact. Rosenhaus did the trick for Antonio Brown, he will do the same for Snacks (at a much different level)
Well, it can't be denied that because of those free agent  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/25/2019 8:33 pm : link
signings, the Giants at least made it back to the playoffs in 2016. Unfortunately JPP missed the last five games, including the playoff game. Vernon without JPP was a big letdown with only a half a sack in those five games without JPP.

But you go down the list:

who has replaced JPP? No one unless you want to look at outside linebacker and Carter. Do you wish they had kept JPP? He was almost a child when he first joined the team. Shooting himself in the leg? He has finally grown up.

who has replaced Vernon? Beats me.

They hope Tomlinson will replace Harrison. With Harrison they had almost universally one of the top three between the tackles run-stopper, good for three or four more years. He was traded for nothing. A 5th round lottery ticket.

Vernon was a starter who was consistent but not very often
great as an end. They'll use a high draft pick to replace one of the DEs. The other? Maybe they'll sign a free agent not as good as JPP.

Pointless to continue. "What's Done Can't Be Undone"
MacBeth
When a team losses so many games  
chuckydee9 : 3/25/2019 8:41 pm : link
People blame everyone that is no longer on the team.. as if its only their fault.. Snacks was a great defender for us.. everything points to him not being the problem.. our run defense was really good when he was here.. one he left scrubs were running for 100 yards against us left and right.. Lions conversely went from sucking to kicking ass as far as run defense goes.. but because we are so bitter about our team and don't want to blame the people that are still here we find bullshit reasons to blame the players that have left..

Same with JPP.. how good was our DL and DEs this year because OV was injured and JPP was gone? Did the 3rd pick look 1/2 as good as a 1.8 handed JPP?

Stop Hating on players simply because Gettleman has moved on.. he probably traded Snacks because he couldn't trade some of the worse players on the team..
I want more money  
MM_in_NYC : 3/25/2019 8:51 pm : link
too. Do you not?
RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
djm : 3/25/2019 9:05 pm : link
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.


Did those contracts really really hurt us tho? Yea We lost with them. Had the one good year. Other than that?

Giants will have close to a billion dollars next off season. Spend wisely donít live in fear. Simple as that.

Ps Jenkins is still here playing well.
RE: That's right, I forgot the other guy we signed...DRC  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/25/2019 9:08 pm : link
In comment 14356703 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He was in 2014, but yeah another great locker room guy. And to think we opted to pay him instead of Joseph...


Now you're knocking DRC? Try doing some fact-checking.
Oft-injured? In four seasons with the Giants he missed three games, one each in 2015, 2016 and 2017.

A bad guy in the locker room? According to whom. You make that up just like you make up the injury prone.

DRC in 2014-16 was a solid corner and a good tackler who had 11 picks in those three seasons.

So in 2017 coach puts Apple out there on the corner, which he was not ready to play, and puts DRC in the slot, where he takes only about 60 percent of the snaps. This coming off a six pick AP All Pro season. Any competitor would be unhappy about that.

You treat management as sacred. In all endeavors from corporate to military it's the guys at the top who are held responsible.
Agree with Hammer. The 2016 team made the playoffs, Eli played  
Ivan15 : 3/25/2019 9:18 pm : link
His ass off in the Packers game, and the WRs took the week off.

Jenkins and HArrison lived up to their deals.
RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
Emlen'sGremlins : 3/26/2019 3:53 am : link
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.


BEWARE: You'll have a great defense and make the playoffs!
RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
Fred-in-Florida : 3/26/2019 5:52 am : link
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.


That's why they didn't spend the money on Collins. Is the 14 million warrented? That's not for me to decide. But even if he has a Great year or 2 then what's the UNforseeable future. You don't know how things are going to work out. He's had a few injuries and football is still a violent sport. Personnally I don't like long term contracts, unless after 2 years there's no cap hit.
So what if he wants more money  
MetsAreBack : 3/26/2019 8:38 am : link
is it your money? It's the offseason - he's only got a few years left before he has to go seek employment in a new industry at a small fraction of his current worth - the worst the Lions can say is no.

Snacks might have been a problem in the locker room, I dont know (I dont think it matters that he didnt want to be a vocal leader). But this particular news article doesn't shed light on anything and sure as fuck isn't a data point on the 2016 free agent class (I thought we went to the playoffs that year?)
RE: That's right, I forgot the other guy we signed...DRC  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 3/26/2019 8:39 am : link
In comment 14356703 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He was in 2014, but yeah another great locker room guy. And to think we opted to pay him instead of Joseph...

And not resigning Black Unicorn for a middling contract.
RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
NYG007 : 3/26/2019 9:14 am : link
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.


Except if our WR's held the ball (7 drops including 3 TD's, 2 4th down conversions and a huge play down the sideline), it MAY have worked the one year..
That locker room especially on defense  
Dnew15 : 3/26/2019 9:15 am : link
had some pretty different personalities than the Giants defense that won super bowls.

JPP/DRC/Harrison/OV were a lot different than Tuck/Kiwi/Rolle/Osi
RE: Well, it can't be denied that because of those free agent  
regulator : 3/26/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14356721 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
Quote:

They hope Tomlinson will replace Harrison. With Harrison they had almost universally one of the top three between the tackles run-stopper, good for three or four more years. He was traded for nothing. A 5th round lottery ticket.


I'd be knocked out of my chair if any team in the NFL would have offered more than that for Snacks. I think people tend to grossly over-value trade values for veterans outside of marquee positions (QB/LT/Edge).

Here's a bet... if Snacks suits up for an NFL team opening day 2023, I'll send you a bottle of JW Black. I promise.
At this point  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 3/26/2019 10:56 am : link
I'd be a little surprised if Snacks is a starter in 2021.
Vernon was the sour note on that spending spree  
jcn56 : 3/26/2019 11:10 am : link
If they had just signed Snacks and Jenkins, they'd look like geniuses. Both were paid well but not exorbitantly, and both are still playing at a high level.

Vernon being oft injured since he signed, and having signed for well over market, killed what would have been a very good FA haul. Much better than what the Giants would get in 2018.
RE: Vernon was the sour note on that spending spree  
Enzo : 3/26/2019 11:17 am : link
In comment 14357218 jcn56 said:
Quote:
If they had just signed Snacks and Jenkins, they'd look like geniuses. Both were paid well but not exorbitantly, and both are still playing at a high level.

Vernon being oft injured since he signed, and having signed for well over market, killed what would have been a very good FA haul. Much better than what the Giants would get in 2018.

agree. I'd also add the JPP deal that offseason as huge overpay for a guy who was never reliable.

Regardless, getting a 5th rounder for Harrison was a lousy return.

I hear that TB  
Dnew15 : 3/26/2019 11:21 am : link
is now trying to move JPP.
hard for me to play the  
UConn4523 : 3/26/2019 11:34 am : link
"we sucked with them so these were bad signings" game. That's a bullshit argument that doesn't capture the full extent of how bad things were in other areas.

We went to the playoffs in 2016 because of it and then things fell of the rails which seemed to be part culture/part coaching staff ineptitude. I don't think anyone is saying that we should just give away money, but spending clearly helped us "win" in 2016. Its inarguable.

Had our picks/FA's panned out at all on the OL this thread would look a lot different, I suspect.
RE: christian  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/26/2019 11:37 am : link
In comment 14356683 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Yeah I'm thinking more about Mara than I am Gettleman with regards to next year. This team desperately needs to implement some policies regarding culture and payment structures that clearly have not been there. Maybe they're in the process of doing that, I don't know...but those policies have clearly not been there these past few years.


Every team has their own policies for fines, but once you get into contracts, that's a union/cba issue.
Ten ton  
Go Terps : 3/26/2019 11:55 am : link
I'm referring to how and when they choose to pay players. If they splurge on high end FAs next year it will destroy the good work they did this offseason. It's all connected.
RE: Ten ton  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 3/26/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14357338 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm referring to how and when they choose to pay players. If they splurge on high end FAs next year it will destroy the good work they did this offseason. It's all connected.


Spending is ok if it's the right player at the right time, but I think the previous regime DID throw money around out of desperation. (DG did the same with Solder)

IMO They targeted the best players available at positions of need without putting much thought into leadership and culture and as fans we applauded the talent being brought in the door.

They wanted Snacks to be a leader. He clearly wasnt. He was a tremendous run stopper but apparently didn't do much to build a winning culture.

RE: The 2016 spree is a HUGE cautionary tale to remember a year from now  
DavidinBMNY : 3/26/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14356648 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Just because you have a bunch of cap space doesn't mean you should spend it all on a few overpriced contracts in the hopes of making a run.

Those contracts - Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and then JPP in 2017 - have to be remembered next time there's a clamor to throw money at a guy that doesn't merit it.
How much money do the Patriots throw at individual players? Historically, how about the packers? Seahwaks? Ravens? Steelers? The year in year out good teams build through the draft, and very selectively pay big money.

We've been on the wrong side of this for a long time. This is the first year in a long time, it feels like a real shot to get out of a bad spot with the roster. There's almost no one left from Reese's tenure (not counting Eli and Deoisse) what are there 8 or 9 players? Engram, Tomlinson , Sheppard, Jenkins [FA]? Who else? Perkins and Gallman? Seriously...
RE: 2016 is a cautionary tale for not building the core of your team w/ FA  
Gettledogman : 3/26/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14356674 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Building a mercenary unit can only last for so long. There's a reason each of those players previous teams let those guys go, and it's because like 90% of FA they had some flaws. The true building block players rarely get there.

That said, each of the individual deals would have been perfectly fine if they had been the final piece on an already good D. It was the sum of all of them needing to make up the majority of an underperforming unit that led to the failure.

If any of those players could have simply been a complimentary pickup a la Antonio Pierce being added to an existing talent pool of Strahan/Osi/Tuck already in place, those signings would have looked a lot better because the results would have been a lot better. Or Barrow getting added to the 2000 defense that already had Hammer, Strahan, Armstead, etc. Or Antrel Rolle/Mike Boley getting added to the team that already had Phillips, Webster, JPP, Tuck, Osi, Joseph. Barrow/Boley/Rolle/Pierce all had their warts as FA, and none were especially cheap to acquire, but they were successful pickups because they joined enough talented players to form a good unit.

That was the failing of the class of 2016. The underlying talent was basically Landon Collins. JPP never returned to form, Hankins, Thompson, and Eli Apple turned into busts. Bromley and Odigizua were already busts. Almost all of Reese's failings go back to poor drafts that didn't seem so bad at the time bc they were masked by 1 or 2 great picks like Odell and Collins.


Excellent post
Back to the Corner