He botched some things like Beckham not back on punt return at the end of week 1. His questionable 4th down decisions @ Dallas. More than anything else, giving up on Barkley in the 2nd half @ Philly after he dominated the 1st half.
One the positive side, as cliche as it sounds, there was no quit in the team after the terrible start.
Is often referenced here by those who lack a belief in him. However, the context in which that record was compiled should not be ignored.
His 3 years as a head coach in this league have been spent with maybe the worst team in the league for at least 2 of those seasons, and last year s version of the Giants was not far from that.
I say jury s out, but I saw a pretty decent effort the last 8’games of the season, that s a good reflection on the coach
Like to see him get a chance with a young quarterback.
as he is the HC and the proverbial buck stops with him. But Bettcher has been horrible. Fans have been giddy thinking that we were returning to a 3-4 and it rekindled memories of their boyhood. But for his reputation of bringing the blitz, he isn't living up to his billing. Granted to some degree the level of talent is at fault, but a DC worth his chops won't need Khalil Mack lining up for him to demonstrate his "brilliance". Our defense has been trash before he arrived and it still remains.
Just like the QB position, I think the offensive line really had them dead in the water to start the year.
I thought once that stabilized a bit the offense opened up. If we continue that growth on offense I'll be happy.
On defense, I'm willing to give them a little more leeway because they changed to a 3-4 and it takes time to get the personnel in place for that change.
on Shurmur's offensive play calls and overall game plan, and his ability to get guys prepared. It's the in game and timeout management stuff that made me crazy last year. Perhaps he needed that year to work some things out...he was better down the stretch.
Better....jury is still out on that. Have to get him some talent.
Like running a reverse with OBJ from the 8 yard line? Scary stuff, that play needs at least 20 yards of space to keep the DB’s back.
Things like this play are thrown out there by good offense coordinators to get defenses thinking about other things. They often setup plays down the line, or give the other team more things to think about then what the analytics have already given them.
Some of them work the first time and some of them are duds.
So yes the reverse seems stupid, but I couldn't tell you if it helped open up the rest of the game.
Shurmur coached the offense well. I think it will be better this year, though not as dynamic passing wise.
His defense was didn't have many horses.
For getting the offense to look at least powerful and unpredictable I give him an A.
I also think he had a ton to deal with when players were being jettisoned in the middle of the season.
I think he could get a real good team together if he got better talent.
Shurmur can be about what Jim Fassel was. The rest of the coaching staff seems to be below average in my view. I imagine Shurmur is the OC, so do you need anyone better than Shula, who I believe is really sub parr.
as he is the HC and the proverbial buck stops with him. But Bettcher has been horrible. Fans have been giddy thinking that we were returning to a 3-4 and it rekindled memories of their boyhood. But for his reputation of bringing the blitz, he isn't living up to his billing. Granted to some degree the level of talent is at fault, but a DC worth his chops won't need Khalil Mack lining up for him to demonstrate his "brilliance". Our defense has been trash before he arrived and it still remains.
'won't need Khalil Mack' is the understatement of the century. He'd be better off with Bernie Mac out there than the shit he had for most of last season.
Shurmur doesn't inspire any confidence at all. He seems like a low-rent Norv Turner - pretty good to great at OC and below, not cut out for HC. His record in Cleveland and thus far here doesn't seem to imply he's just waiting to break out.
I was actually hopeful on Bettcher, but I'm neutral at this point. Just can't fault the guy given the roster he inherited.
Bettcher has been making the best he can out of chicken shit and a team that has been funneling every single resource into the offense the last couple of years. Shurmur has proven that he could scheme guys open and I felt he handled an almost impossible situation last year fairly well. He desperately needs to hire somebody full-time to handle in-game clock management though. It's not something he'll get better at, pay somebody to handle those decisions for you.
RE: This thread will likely focus on the Shurmur Â
as he is the HC and the proverbial buck stops with him. But Bettcher has been horrible. Fans have been giddy thinking that we were returning to a 3-4 and it rekindled memories of their boyhood. But for his reputation of bringing the blitz, he isn't living up to his billing. Granted to some degree the level of talent is at fault, but a DC worth his chops won't need Khalil Mack lining up for him to demonstrate his "brilliance". Our defense has been trash before he arrived and it still remains.
Coaches play to the roster. Very few coaches are going to call blitzes when they don't have confidence it's going to either get to the QB, or fail because of trash coverage. It's got very little to do with brilliance. There's one coach in the NFL that just walks in the door and makes players better than their talent level with his mind, and he's in New England.
But I will say it was good to see the team kept it together and was fighting down the stretch, even after they were eliminated from playoffs. It will be interesting to see if things improve as they adjust the roster to their preference.
James Bettcher, I actually have a good impression of, despite the poor performance of the D. They just lack talent on that side.
Hunter was a big question to me from the start. Yes, the line performed better down the stretch, but I can't imagine this isn't an area they can't improve.
Hal Hunter is probably the least accomplished OL coach Â
Shurmur was possibly the worst gameday coach in the league last year, and that's saying something. I also was discouraged by his frequent referencing of the 3-13 record in 2017, and the way he used Lauletta as the butt of a joke after the Washington game.
management and timeout usage: questionable to poor.
shurmur taking half the season to seemingly get the offense to a respectable playing level: questionable.
shurmur convincing gettleman that he can work with OBJ and not to trade him, only to have OBJ traded 7 months after signing a 95 million dollar contract because of his sustained prima donna issues and seeming willingness to sit out a fourth of the season with a leg bruise: unfortunate.
clear upgrade over mcadoo, though, or so i'd argue. hopefully he gets better with the timeout/game management stuff. can probably attribute 1-2 losses last season directly to his ineptitude in this area.
context matters. Belichick’s career record before New England wasn’t exactly awe inspiring to say the least.
With that said it’s a big year for shurmur. I think the offense is more talented than many seem to think. I want consistency this season and I expect it. I think shurmur is a good offensive mind and a sort of stabilizing influence here. Not sure he’s the guy to lead the giants to a run of excellence but baby steps....baby steps.
Since we're bringing up Belichick, here's a quote of his:
Quote:
#4. We don’t talk about last year. We don’t talk about next week. We talk about today, and we talk about the next game. That’s all we can really control. The rest of it will take care of itself.
Shurmur and Gettleman both don't seem to agree with him. Link - ( New Window )
RE: Hal Hunter is probably the least accomplished OL coach Â
I think Shurmur did a good job of starting to straighten out the culture of the team. I think he handles the players and the media well. He is certainly an upgrade over McAdoo. He did make some head scratching decisions with game management. I think our coaching staff is better than most of BBI thinks and is an upgrade over the prior regime. Bettcher gets a pass for year one with the scheme change, but this is a big year for him and the coaching staff.
They inherited a last place team that was critically broken in the sense of camaraderie and team. From my limited view as a fan it appears they have focused on building camaraderie and team and produced positive results though they again ended the season a last place team. Last years draft has the potential to be one of our best in a while. They have positioned themselves to make some noise in this draft. So I cautiously remain hopeful and encouraged. BUT as a Giant fan from the 60's and 70's I relate to Charlie Brown once again being convinced by Lucy to kick the football. The bitch is going to move it again isn't she?!
Tough job with such a large turnover of players and coaches alike in one year, Good draft and average FA period to fill a lot of holes because of the purge that had to be done. Good secod half comeback last season. We have added youth and some may prove to be excellent contributors down the line, The future looks brighter than in 5/6 years.
He's a milquetoast hire and he effed up that punt return with Odell as well as the Philly game in Philly when SB was running wild by not running him more in the second half.
context matters. Belichick’s career record before New England wasn’t exactly awe inspiring to say the least.
With that said it’s a big year for shurmur. I think the offense is more talented than many seem to think. I want consistency this season and I expect it. I think shurmur is a good offensive mind and a sort of stabilizing influence here. Not sure he’s the guy to lead the giants to a run of excellence but baby steps....baby steps.
Offense with Barkley, Engram and Shephard as the focal points and just a passable OL looked pretty darn good the last few games of the season.
Add to that a better OL and Tate....The O should be more than fine.
Defense with more appropriately fitting pieces should be the focal point for improvement in the draft.
players, has them prepared to play, and will put his players in the best positions to succeed offensively. However, the in game management is a glaring weakness and was when he was in Cleveland. Since your average fan doesn't really know what the coach does other than the in game decisions I can see why there is pitchfork crowd here for him.
Hunter made chicken salad out of chicken shit with the OL in the second half of the season...the WRs seemed to really take to Tolbert, and we got better than expected effort/production from our JAG WRs after OBJ/Shep, and our new special teams coach got them to play well in coverage and kicking games.
Plus Bettcher seems well regarded, jury’s still out but he was running a defense with only about 6-7 guys who should be NFL starters
As others said, Shurmur made some bonehead decisions in game...incomplete so far, but I’m holding out hope after the offense got rolling late in the season
he was hidden for the most part because the roster sucked and you really couldn't question him too much. But the game in Philly, when the Giants were the better team and they blew it was a huge red flag to me and how he was as a coach. And he's not like he's a rookie out there, there is only so much growth we can expect from him.
That said, NFL teams tend to always look at the previous coach and want to get a different type after they leave. In the past it was always the disciplinarian vs. the players coach. Fassel to Coughlin a textbook example.
In the case of Shurmur, the Giants watched McAdoo throw up all over himself and lose the locker room at a rate that made Ray Handley look like Knute Rockne. So they wanted to get a guy who they knew would be solid, wouldn't cause problems and get some authority back from the head coach.
Do I see Shurmur as a Super Bowl winning coach one day? No, I don't. But what do I know, I thought Doug Pedersen was a joke after his first year in Philly with several dubious calls, including costing the Eagles the game at MetLife in 2016.
RE: I think Shurmur is going to be a guy that garners the respect of his Â
players, has them prepared to play, and will put his players in the best positions to succeed offensively. However, the in game management is a glaring weakness and was when he was in Cleveland. Since your average fan doesn't really know what the coach does other than the in game decisions I can see why there is pitchfork crowd here for him.
Some guys are just better as coordinators. He doesn’t seem like someone who can handle running the full team and thinking about macro strategy. Head Coach is as important as QB and way more important than any other position in football and I don’t think the Giants have a good one.
Look at Belichick. I am positive he could make the playoffs with a team constructed entirely of training camp castoffs from the rest of the league.
Actually. Hal Hunter gets lambasted here but look at the garbage he had to work with last year and then we cut Flowers and Omameh, lose Halapio then Greco slides in at OC, then he moves to RG so Pulley moves to OC and then we grab Jamon Brown off the street and the offense was improving in the second half of the year. Two opening day starters remained at the end of the year and we played 3 different Centers and 3 different RGs and two RTs. To get those guys ready off the street and into the playbook and actually win a few games and score a bunch at the end is a testament to good coaching.
I like Shurmur, he did make some bone headed decisions but he's a smart guy and he has the right temperament and attitude to make it here. Shula and Bettcher both have good track records, and I expect both units to make big strides in year 2 of brand new systems. Overall the jury is out but i have faith in them as a whole.
I will reserve judgement until this year.
We need to see marked improvement from last year in some shape of form.
He botched some things like Beckham not back on punt return at the end of week 1. His questionable 4th down decisions @ Dallas. More than anything else, giving up on Barkley in the 2nd half @ Philly after he dominated the 1st half.
One the positive side, as cliche as it sounds, there was no quit in the team after the terrible start.
I think we need to see a lot more in year 2.
His 3 years as a head coach in this league have been spent with maybe the worst team in the league for at least 2 of those seasons, and last year s version of the Giants was not far from that.
I say jury s out, but I saw a pretty decent effort the last 8’games of the season, that s a good reflection on the coach
Like to see him get a chance with a young quarterback.
Like running a reverse with OBJ from the 8 yard line? Scary stuff, that play needs at least 20 yards of space to keep the DB’s back.
Off topic, but are you in Raleigh?
I thought once that stabilized a bit the offense opened up. If we continue that growth on offense I'll be happy.
On defense, I'm willing to give them a little more leeway because they changed to a 3-4 and it takes time to get the personnel in place for that change.
Better....jury is still out on that. Have to get him some talent.
Special teams was very good, happy with that.
Quote:
in game calls.
Like running a reverse with OBJ from the 8 yard line? Scary stuff, that play needs at least 20 yards of space to keep the DB’s back.
Things like this play are thrown out there by good offense coordinators to get defenses thinking about other things. They often setup plays down the line, or give the other team more things to think about then what the analytics have already given them.
Some of them work the first time and some of them are duds.
So yes the reverse seems stupid, but I couldn't tell you if it helped open up the rest of the game.
Shurmur coached the offense well. I think it will be better this year, though not as dynamic passing wise.
His defense was didn't have many horses.
For getting the offense to look at least powerful and unpredictable I give him an A.
I also think he had a ton to deal with when players were being jettisoned in the middle of the season.
I think he could get a real good team together if he got better talent.
Overall, I'd say 5 out of 10.
'won't need Khalil Mack' is the understatement of the century. He'd be better off with Bernie Mac out there than the shit he had for most of last season.
Shurmur doesn't inspire any confidence at all. He seems like a low-rent Norv Turner - pretty good to great at OC and below, not cut out for HC. His record in Cleveland and thus far here doesn't seem to imply he's just waiting to break out.
I was actually hopeful on Bettcher, but I'm neutral at this point. Just can't fault the guy given the roster he inherited.
Coaches play to the roster. Very few coaches are going to call blitzes when they don't have confidence it's going to either get to the QB, or fail because of trash coverage. It's got very little to do with brilliance. There's one coach in the NFL that just walks in the door and makes players better than their talent level with his mind, and he's in New England.
James Bettcher, I actually have a good impression of, despite the poor performance of the D. They just lack talent on that side.
Hunter was a big question to me from the start. Yes, the line performed better down the stretch, but I can't imagine this isn't an area they can't improve.
And as soon as he left the Giants, Solari again did good work with Seattle's improved line.
His career record is 15-34.
shurmur taking half the season to seemingly get the offense to a respectable playing level: questionable.
shurmur convincing gettleman that he can work with OBJ and not to trade him, only to have OBJ traded 7 months after signing a 95 million dollar contract because of his sustained prima donna issues and seeming willingness to sit out a fourth of the season with a leg bruise: unfortunate.
clear upgrade over mcadoo, though, or so i'd argue. hopefully he gets better with the timeout/game management stuff. can probably attribute 1-2 losses last season directly to his ineptitude in this area.
With that said it’s a big year for shurmur. I think the offense is more talented than many seem to think. I want consistency this season and I expect it. I think shurmur is a good offensive mind and a sort of stabilizing influence here. Not sure he’s the guy to lead the giants to a run of excellence but baby steps....baby steps.
That annoyed me too. He was in total cover-your-ass mode at several points last year with his comments, and it's an ugly look.
I get why, because of all the losing in his record, but part of me thinks it's in his head already.
Shurmur and Gettleman both don't seem to agree with him.
Link - ( New Window )
And as soon as he left the Giants, Solari again did good work with Seattle's improved line.
It was such a scrap heap hire for such a critical position.
not brimming with confidence, but allowances have to be made.
I'd prefer a real OC, not Shurmur running the show while we look at the org chart to remind us who the OC is.
With that said it’s a big year for shurmur. I think the offense is more talented than many seem to think. I want consistency this season and I expect it. I think shurmur is a good offensive mind and a sort of stabilizing influence here. Not sure he’s the guy to lead the giants to a run of excellence but baby steps....baby steps.
Offense with Barkley, Engram and Shephard as the focal points and just a passable OL looked pretty darn good the last few games of the season.
Add to that a better OL and Tate....The O should be more than fine.
Defense with more appropriately fitting pieces should be the focal point for improvement in the draft.
Guess we'll find out soon enough
Plus Bettcher seems well regarded, jury’s still out but he was running a defense with only about 6-7 guys who should be NFL starters
As others said, Shurmur made some bonehead decisions in game...incomplete so far, but I’m holding out hope after the offense got rolling late in the season
Nonetheless, I'm keeping an open mind.
That said, NFL teams tend to always look at the previous coach and want to get a different type after they leave. In the past it was always the disciplinarian vs. the players coach. Fassel to Coughlin a textbook example.
In the case of Shurmur, the Giants watched McAdoo throw up all over himself and lose the locker room at a rate that made Ray Handley look like Knute Rockne. So they wanted to get a guy who they knew would be solid, wouldn't cause problems and get some authority back from the head coach.
Do I see Shurmur as a Super Bowl winning coach one day? No, I don't. But what do I know, I thought Doug Pedersen was a joke after his first year in Philly with several dubious calls, including costing the Eagles the game at MetLife in 2016.
He might need a quality control coach
Look at Belichick. I am positive he could make the playoffs with a team constructed entirely of training camp castoffs from the rest of the league.
I like Shurmur, he did make some bone headed decisions but he's a smart guy and he has the right temperament and attitude to make it here. Shula and Bettcher both have good track records, and I expect both units to make big strides in year 2 of brand new systems. Overall the jury is out but i have faith in them as a whole.