was a "flawless workout" than what the hell would he call the effort by Haskins and Lock? Hall of Fame-ish?
idk what you were watching but I agree. Jones had a great day. His deep shots were dropped in the bucket. He showed good footwork and the ability to move, reload, and fire to a moving receiver. And his touch passes and ball location was very good. Better than any Pro Day I’ve seen so far.
I watched Lock's workout, and I didn't like what I saw. Mechanically he's got issues...you can tell he's relied on having a big arm his whole life.
I was more bullish. I could see the impact QB guru Jordan Palmer is having. I saw a nice compliment of touch and velocity.
However, that is the gamble with Lock, right? You know you have the God-given arm, but can you polish up the fundamentals to improve consistency.
On the other hand, you know if you need a guy to make a play when things aren't comfortable, and mechanics are impacted by the situation, you know Lock can still get the ball there. So there is that luxury element.
was a "flawless workout" than what the hell would he call the effort by Haskins and Lock? Hall of Fame-ish?
idk what you were watching but I agree. Jones had a great day. His deep shots were dropped in the bucket. He showed good footwork and the ability to move, reload, and fire to a moving receiver. And his touch passes and ball location was very good. Better than any Pro Day I’ve seen so far.
Okay - fair enough. Just calling it like I see it.
You have to admit there were deep passes with the ball just hung on the receiver waited for the lazy fly ball. Or maybe you don't... ;)
My concern is picking a QB based on a system which may change in the next 1-2 years.
Fair, but the system Shurmur's running is basically the system most of the NFL is using, right? That's one of the problems we have now...this system doesn't fit what Eli does. All of the throws Eli was good at under Gilbride...back shoulder fades, deep outs - they seem to have disappeared.
I expect a new head coach in a year or two (though I'm less convinced now given the moves this offseason), and if that comes to pass it's likely that the next offense will still be highly derived from the WCO concepts we see now.
I'm also only thinking about this next QB in terms of a 4 year window. Unless he's Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes he won't be worth paying a second contract.
His first 10-15 passes were as perfect as you could do. Then he would get a little wobbly and short on some passes. He threw some of the best and worst deep passes I have seen in a pro day. Perfect in stride throw and then ones where the WR is almost stopped.
I will also add... at the very end when they moved him to the 20 he was amazing. Every throw until the end was perfect placement. He threw perfect fades and was very accurate on every throw.
So what does that tell me. Well I see Alex Smith honestly. His short game almost is exactly like him if you ask me.
I think this is a bit overstated. But the space 20 yards and in are Jones's sweet-spot.
So do you see first round investment level?
No I don't see it. I wouldn't hate it at 17, but I would be upset. At 6 I think I would cry. I think he is a legit 2nd round talent though. Maybe a trade into the back end of round 1 only because you get that extra year not because he is a first rounder. I think he would be good in the redzone and would struggle from his own 25. He would need WRs, RBs, and TEs that can take a short pass placed perfectly and make something big. I mean if he had like an OBJ now you are talking. Players like OBJ are hard to get though. You can't just trade for them easily.
Good points. Daniel Jones won’t bother me so much. I think the QB needs to successfully manage the offense & be proficient in the system. The landscape is different than 2004, it isn’t necessarily about finding a 15 year franchise QB.
apparently some of the receivers are not starting at the line of scrimmage since they don't have enough receivers. So a couple of passes where the receiver had to wait for the ball is because they were already down the field. Which would explain why those on the field were OK with the throws but they didn't look great on TV.
Good points. Daniel Jones won’t bother me so much. I think the QB needs to successfully manage the offense & be proficient in the system. The landscape is different than 2004, it isn’t necessarily about finding a 15 year franchise QB.
The term "game manager" has always had a negative connotation, but I think you want a game manager in today's NFL more than ever. The QB position today is more about pre-snap reads, extending plays off schedule, and creating YAC than it is about throwing deep like it's Elway in '86.
Get the ball to Barkley and Engram in the right places at the right times...IMO that should be the name of the game for the Giants these next 2-3 years.
I definitely agree with the idea that the current version of the NFL Â
is about extending plays and getting the ball to your athletes in space, but watching the best offenses in the league last year, they were getting monster downfield plays off busted coverages. It wasn't the 6-7 yard dinks that we've been seeing here the last three years. Teams are ripping off yards in chunks.
Good points. Daniel Jones won’t bother me so much. I think the QB needs to successfully manage the offense & be proficient in the system. The landscape is different than 2004, it isn’t necessarily about finding a 15 year franchise QB.
The term "game manager" has always had a negative connotation, but I think you want a game manager in today's NFL more than ever. The QB position today is more about pre-snap reads, extending plays off schedule, and creating YAC than it is about throwing deep like it's Elway in '86.
Get the ball to Barkley and Engram in the right places at the right times...IMO that should be the name of the game for the Giants these next 2-3 years.
LOL at this. Today’s NFL you definitely do NOT want a game manager. Last 5 super bowl winnings QBs were Brady, Foles, Peyton and Wilson. None of them are game managers. In today’s NFL defenses aren’t as dominant and the rules cater to the offense and QBs which is why having a stud QB is a monster advantage. And saying get the ball to Barkley and Engram? Engram hasn’t proven shit or that he can even catch the ball. Barkley is great in space but you do not want to rely on throwing the ball to your RB as often as we did last season. We need to find a great QB, fix the defense and get a few reliable weapons.
You make my point for me. Of Brady, Peyton, Foles, and Wilson, which one of those guys has a cannon? Each one of those guys is a game manager...their ability to understand what they see and put the ball in the right place at the right time is why they won. They didn't win because they could throw the ball 60 yards on the run.
Of Haskins, Lock, and Jones which of the three seems most likely to take the snap from center, take the appropriate three step drop back, and deliver the ball accurately and on time to Barkley in the flat? That's the question I'm asking if I'm scouting these guys for the Giants. I'm not asking, "Who's most likely to step up in the pocket after a 7 step drop and heave it deep to Cody Latimer?"
Shit, Greg Cosell even named Foles as his comp for Jones.
Good points. Daniel Jones won’t bother me so much. I think the QB needs to successfully manage the offense & be proficient in the system. The landscape is different than 2004, it isn’t necessarily about finding a 15 year franchise QB.
The term "game manager" has always had a negative connotation, but I think you want a game manager in today's NFL more than ever. The QB position today is more about pre-snap reads, extending plays off schedule, and creating YAC than it is about throwing deep like it's Elway in '86.
Get the ball to Barkley and Engram in the right places at the right times...IMO that should be the name of the game for the Giants these next 2-3 years.
LOL at this. Today’s NFL you definitely do NOT want a game manager. Last 5 super bowl winnings QBs were Brady, Foles, Peyton and Wilson. None of them are game managers. In today’s NFL defenses aren’t as dominant and the rules cater to the offense and QBs which is why having a stud QB is a monster advantage. And saying get the ball to Barkley and Engram? Engram hasn’t proven shit or that he can even catch the ball. Barkley is great in space but you do not want to rely on throwing the ball to your RB as often as we did last season. We need to find a great QB, fix the defense and get a few reliable weapons.
You pretty clearly didn't watch the 2015 Broncos.
Calling Peyton a game manager might actually be generous.
Of Haskins, Lock, and Jones which of the three seems most likely to take the snap from center, take the appropriate three step drop back, and deliver the ball accurately and on time to Barkley in the flat? That's the question I'm asking if I'm scouting these guys for the Giants.
That seems a bit unbalanced towards being a checkdown artist. It's fine if you want to play it safe that way, but you don't need to spend a 1st round pick on a QB if what you want is a handoff/dumpoff specialist. You'd be paying a premium for nothing.
There's a difference between being a checkdown artist and a master of the short passing game. I'd offer two contrasting examples from 2018, Eli and Brees:
Average Intended Air Yards/Pass
Eli: 7.2
Brees: 7.1
Yards/Completion
Eli: 11.3
Brees: 11.0
Adjusted Yds. Gained/Pass
Eli: 7.3
Brees: 9.0
Yards/Attempt
Eli: 7.5
Brees: 8.2
They're throwing the ball about the same distance per play, but one guy is clearly doing it better than the other. And look at red zone performance:
It's unfair to compare anyone to Brees, but you can see that in the short passing game there's a definite difference between a checkdown artist (which Eli was in 2018) and a grandmaster.
You make my point for me. Of Brady, Peyton, Foles, and Wilson, which one of those guys has a cannon? Each one of those guys is a game manager...their ability to understand what they see and put the ball in the right place at the right time is why they won. They didn't win because they could throw the ball 60 yards on the run.
FWIW - Wilson and Brady have very good arms. Easily above average. You don't play in New England and Seattle without being able to throw the ball through the weather.
There's a difference between being a checkdown artist and a master of the short passing game. I'd offer two contrasting examples from 2018, Eli and Brees:
Average Intended Air Yards/Pass
Eli: 7.2
Brees: 7.1
Yards/Completion
Eli: 11.3
Brees: 11.0
Adjusted Yds. Gained/Pass
Eli: 7.3
Brees: 9.0
Yards/Attempt
Eli: 7.5
Brees: 8.2
They're throwing the ball about the same distance per play, but one guy is clearly doing it better than the other. And look at red zone performance:
It's unfair to compare anyone to Brees, but you can see that in the short passing game there's a definite difference between a checkdown artist (which Eli was in 2018) and a grandmaster.
This narrative around Foles like he is a good NFL QB is a strange one. He won on the strength of the back of the team, he most certainly did not elevate those around him.
RE: Foles and Peyton when he won are most certainly game managers. Â
This narrative around Foles like he is a good NFL QB is a strange one. He won on the strength of the back of the team, he most certainly did not elevate those around him.
Well, he was 28/43, 373 yards, and 3 TDs in the Superbowl. And caught a TD pass...
So he managed that game quite well. ;)
RE: RE: Foles and Peyton when he won are most certainly game managers. Â
This narrative around Foles like he is a good NFL QB is a strange one. He won on the strength of the back of the team, he most certainly did not elevate those around him.
Well, he was 28/43, 373 yards, and 3 TDs in the Superbowl. And caught a TD pass...
So he managed that game quite well. ;)
He did manage to throw to wide open receivers very well in that game. I was having cognitive dissonance that Bill Belichik was standing on the sideline.
timing offense because that arm is not made for the long game in the NFL.
Agreed. The lack of arm strength was evident. More evidence why we shouldn't take a QB this year. But Jones will still likely be taken in the first round, when Finley can probably be had in the third with a trade up. I'd pass on Finley as well, but I don't see a lot of difference between him and Jones.
timing offense because that arm is not made for the long game in the NFL.
Agreed. The lack of arm strength was evident. More evidence why we shouldn't take a QB this year. But Jones will still likely be taken in the first round, when Finley can probably be had in the third with a trade up. I'd pass on Finley as well, but I don't see a lot of difference between him and Jones.
At the end of the day, arm strength matters. I have it right there with accuracy. The NFL gets very uncomfortable in the pocket, and you'd better be able to get the ball there because the windows close a lot quicker than college. And the stronger the arm, the longer a QB can wait to make the throw.
I have become very interested in Finley. I wasn't coming into the year, but took a long second look. His pro day tomorrow is important for his standing as well. I think he's a solid second round candidate...
He's not a 1st Round 'talent'. Throwing against air in his sweats and he struggles to get a ball downfield that isn't a lofted rainbow. Struggles to throw legit outside the numbers deep outs.
I believe he can be a decent starter for the right team but his Draft window opens in Round 2.
I agree with the majority of what Terps is saying Â
quick smart decisions, mobility, and delivering the ball accurately are the most important traits in the NFL now. Behind those are being able to improvise and having a cannon to make big plays from anywhere on the field, but there are very few who have all those tools. Luck and Rodgers do. Brady, Wilson, and Brees each have like 4/5, and what Brady/Brees lack in mobility they make up in decision making. Mahomes and Mayfield each look like prototypes of the physical skill set.
When I look at this year's class, last year's and next year's, for all the criticisms about what he's not, Jones definitely rates well at the top 3 criteria. He had low turnover numbers, his completion % over 3 years held steady at 60% despite having a lot of dropped balls, and athletically he ran for more yards than anyone other than Murray - including Tua, Fromm, Herbert, Lock, Haskins, Mayfield, Darnold etc. Smart, accurate, and mobile are a very good start for any qb (and he's tough).
By far his 2 weakest areas in comparison statistically were YPA and TD. How much of that was his own lack of talent vs. the (lack of) talent of those around him? That's the key question. I don't think he'll ever have the obvious flashy talent of a Mahomes/Mayfield. If he did he'd be in the 1st overall discussion. But if he has the talent to be the next Foles or Smith I think that's worth a first round pick depending on the circumstances. If another no-brainer like Barkley is on the board maybe you pass at 6 and try to move up for him from #17?
Eric, good post. His ypa was low because his o-line was a sieve Â
and he usually had to get rid of the ball quickly.
PFF also had his receivers dropping 39 balls this year to lead CFB. He only had 392 attempts, so literally 10% of his passes were dropped. Not hard to do the math on what his numbers could have been with better players around him who could have just made the plays that were there, forgetting possibly having the ability to make some more big plays.
In his 3 years at Duke I don't think he had a single 1,000 receiver to throw to (or even WR who got drafted since Crowder got drafted the year before his first year).
I’m having trouble posting the link but google this game ... 547 yds of offense including a 61 yd scamper where he ran away from the DBs. Pretty good touch throws on the TDs.
He's not a 1st Round 'talent'. Throwing against air in his sweats and he struggles to get a ball downfield that isn't a lofted rainbow. Struggles to throw legit outside the numbers deep outs.
I believe he can be a decent starter for the right team but his Draft window opens in Round 2.
That about sums it up for me as well.
It is worth pointing out, however, Jones looks like a good athlete and has interesting mobility skills.
His first 10-15 passes were as perfect as you could do. Then he would get a little wobbly and short on some passes. He threw some of the best and worst deep passes I have seen in a pro day. Perfect in stride throw and then ones where the WR is almost stopped.
I will also add... at the very end when they moved him to the 20 he was amazing. Every throw until the end was perfect placement. He threw perfect fades and was very accurate on every throw.
So what does that tell me. Well I see Alex Smith honestly. His short game almost is exactly like him if you ask me.
That’s a very good comparison and an accurate assessment. I really like the Smith comp I see that as well after you said it. I rewatched it on YouTube and it rings true. Good analysis!
The deep balls where the wr stopped? Ha. The wr was already spotted 40 yards down the field. He hurt his hamstring and couldn't run anymore. Those balls weren't under thrown. We have some straight non football IQ PEOPLE on BBI.
The deep balls where the wr stopped? Ha. The wr was already spotted 40 yards down the field. He hurt his hamstring and couldn't run anymore. Those balls weren't under thrown. We have some straight non football IQ PEOPLE on BBI.
Well, you're wrong. The WR who hurt his hamstring was running a fly on the right side.
Jones threw three deep go routes on the left side that were wobbly and way under-thrown.
He had another poor pass to the right side as well on a go route.
Any throws down the left that were way under thrown. Just because the ball is wobbly doesn't make it bad.
Agree, I actually went into it not too familiar with Jones and came away somewhat impressed. I watched it later in the day after reading through this thread and fully expected to see rainbow duck after duck with no arm strength but I saw a very good showing with some really good throws with great accuracy. I'm not saying he's the guy and I know it's only a pro day but it was impressive IMO.
In comment 14358567 Clintqb17 said:
[quote] Any throws down the left that were way under thrown. Just because the ball is wobbly doesn't make it bad. [/quote
If he doesn't throw a tight spiral, when he's playing in the winds of Giants Stadium the ball will die on some throws.
lock has a big arm and can move but has some accuracy issues
murray is very skilled all around but worry about him holding up
they all bring something unique i guess...
I believe Finley and Murray are the best pure passers with Lock just a notch behind. I will admit that I am biased against Haskins. I just don't think his game translates well to the NFL.
Any throws down the left that were way under thrown. Just because the ball is wobbly doesn't make it bad.
Agree, I actually went into it not too familiar with Jones and came away somewhat impressed. I watched it later in the day after reading through this thread and fully expected to see rainbow duck after duck with no arm strength but I saw a very good showing with some really good throws with great accuracy. I'm not saying he's the guy and I know it's only a pro day but it was impressive IMO.
In defense of those like me who were watching, I think what happened is a few of us would post that we saw a wobbler at the same time on the SAME throw. And that sort of gave the illusion this was happening pass after pass after pass...
Like I said yesterday, Jones definitely exhibited good athleticism. And there are tools to work with on roll outs and hitting underneath routes with some pretty accuracy.
To me, Jones is a classic finesse QB. He's a bigger version of Lauletta. But I'm not sure he's any better than Lauletta. So why draft Lauletta, V2?
I was more bullish. I could see the impact QB guru Jordan Palmer is having. I saw a nice compliment of touch and velocity.
However, that is the gamble with Lock, right? You know you have the God-given arm, but can you polish up the fundamentals to improve consistency.
On the other hand, you know if you need a guy to make a play when things aren't comfortable, and mechanics are impacted by the situation, you know Lock can still get the ball there. So there is that luxury element.
Quote:
was a "flawless workout" than what the hell would he call the effort by Haskins and Lock? Hall of Fame-ish?
idk what you were watching but I agree. Jones had a great day. His deep shots were dropped in the bucket. He showed good footwork and the ability to move, reload, and fire to a moving receiver. And his touch passes and ball location was very good. Better than any Pro Day I’ve seen so far.
Okay - fair enough. Just calling it like I see it.
You have to admit there were deep passes with the ball just hung on the receiver waited for the lazy fly ball. Or maybe you don't... ;)
Fair, but the system Shurmur's running is basically the system most of the NFL is using, right? That's one of the problems we have now...this system doesn't fit what Eli does. All of the throws Eli was good at under Gilbride...back shoulder fades, deep outs - they seem to have disappeared.
I expect a new head coach in a year or two (though I'm less convinced now given the moves this offseason), and if that comes to pass it's likely that the next offense will still be highly derived from the WCO concepts we see now.
I'm also only thinking about this next QB in terms of a 4 year window. Unless he's Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes he won't be worth paying a second contract.
Quote:
His first 10-15 passes were as perfect as you could do. Then he would get a little wobbly and short on some passes. He threw some of the best and worst deep passes I have seen in a pro day. Perfect in stride throw and then ones where the WR is almost stopped.
I will also add... at the very end when they moved him to the 20 he was amazing. Every throw until the end was perfect placement. He threw perfect fades and was very accurate on every throw.
So what does that tell me. Well I see Alex Smith honestly. His short game almost is exactly like him if you ask me.
I think this is a bit overstated. But the space 20 yards and in are Jones's sweet-spot.
So do you see first round investment level?
No I don't see it. I wouldn't hate it at 17, but I would be upset. At 6 I think I would cry. I think he is a legit 2nd round talent though. Maybe a trade into the back end of round 1 only because you get that extra year not because he is a first rounder. I think he would be good in the redzone and would struggle from his own 25. He would need WRs, RBs, and TEs that can take a short pass placed perfectly and make something big. I mean if he had like an OBJ now you are talking. Players like OBJ are hard to get though. You can't just trade for them easily.
I was really surprised at how accurate he was.
The term "game manager" has always had a negative connotation, but I think you want a game manager in today's NFL more than ever. The QB position today is more about pre-snap reads, extending plays off schedule, and creating YAC than it is about throwing deep like it's Elway in '86.
Get the ball to Barkley and Engram in the right places at the right times...IMO that should be the name of the game for the Giants these next 2-3 years.
Quote:
Good points. Daniel Jones won’t bother me so much. I think the QB needs to successfully manage the offense & be proficient in the system. The landscape is different than 2004, it isn’t necessarily about finding a 15 year franchise QB.
The term "game manager" has always had a negative connotation, but I think you want a game manager in today's NFL more than ever. The QB position today is more about pre-snap reads, extending plays off schedule, and creating YAC than it is about throwing deep like it's Elway in '86.
Get the ball to Barkley and Engram in the right places at the right times...IMO that should be the name of the game for the Giants these next 2-3 years.
LOL at this. Today’s NFL you definitely do NOT want a game manager. Last 5 super bowl winnings QBs were Brady, Foles, Peyton and Wilson. None of them are game managers. In today’s NFL defenses aren’t as dominant and the rules cater to the offense and QBs which is why having a stud QB is a monster advantage. And saying get the ball to Barkley and Engram? Engram hasn’t proven shit or that he can even catch the ball. Barkley is great in space but you do not want to rely on throwing the ball to your RB as often as we did last season. We need to find a great QB, fix the defense and get a few reliable weapons.
This means Lock is going to the Hall of Fame!
Of Haskins, Lock, and Jones which of the three seems most likely to take the snap from center, take the appropriate three step drop back, and deliver the ball accurately and on time to Barkley in the flat? That's the question I'm asking if I'm scouting these guys for the Giants. I'm not asking, "Who's most likely to step up in the pocket after a 7 step drop and heave it deep to Cody Latimer?"
Shit, Greg Cosell even named Foles as his comp for Jones.
Quote:
In comment 14358018 Sean said:
Quote:
Good points. Daniel Jones won’t bother me so much. I think the QB needs to successfully manage the offense & be proficient in the system. The landscape is different than 2004, it isn’t necessarily about finding a 15 year franchise QB.
The term "game manager" has always had a negative connotation, but I think you want a game manager in today's NFL more than ever. The QB position today is more about pre-snap reads, extending plays off schedule, and creating YAC than it is about throwing deep like it's Elway in '86.
Get the ball to Barkley and Engram in the right places at the right times...IMO that should be the name of the game for the Giants these next 2-3 years.
LOL at this. Today’s NFL you definitely do NOT want a game manager. Last 5 super bowl winnings QBs were Brady, Foles, Peyton and Wilson. None of them are game managers. In today’s NFL defenses aren’t as dominant and the rules cater to the offense and QBs which is why having a stud QB is a monster advantage. And saying get the ball to Barkley and Engram? Engram hasn’t proven shit or that he can even catch the ball. Barkley is great in space but you do not want to rely on throwing the ball to your RB as often as we did last season. We need to find a great QB, fix the defense and get a few reliable weapons.
You pretty clearly didn't watch the 2015 Broncos.
Calling Peyton a game manager might actually be generous.
Quote:
I watched Lock's workout, and I didn't like what I saw. Mechanically he's got issues...you can tell he's relied on having a big arm his whole life.
This means Lock is going to the Hall of Fame!
If you want to compare your track record here and mine, I'd feel comfortable doing that.
Of Haskins, Lock, and Jones which of the three seems most likely to take the snap from center, take the appropriate three step drop back, and deliver the ball accurately and on time to Barkley in the flat? That's the question I'm asking if I'm scouting these guys for the Giants.
That seems a bit unbalanced towards being a checkdown artist. It's fine if you want to play it safe that way, but you don't need to spend a 1st round pick on a QB if what you want is a handoff/dumpoff specialist. You'd be paying a premium for nothing.
Average Intended Air Yards/Pass
Eli: 7.2
Brees: 7.1
Yards/Completion
Eli: 11.3
Brees: 11.0
Adjusted Yds. Gained/Pass
Eli: 7.3
Brees: 9.0
Yards/Attempt
Eli: 7.5
Brees: 8.2
They're throwing the ball about the same distance per play, but one guy is clearly doing it better than the other. And look at red zone performance:
Eli: Inside 20 - 48% completions, 19/2; Inside 10 - 47%, 13/1
Brees (astounding numbers): Inside 20 - 72% completions, 22/0; Inside 10 - 72%, 16/0
It's unfair to compare anyone to Brees, but you can see that in the short passing game there's a definite difference between a checkdown artist (which Eli was in 2018) and a grandmaster.
FWIW - Wilson and Brady have very good arms. Easily above average. You don't play in New England and Seattle without being able to throw the ball through the weather.
Average Intended Air Yards/Pass
Eli: 7.2
Brees: 7.1
Yards/Completion
Eli: 11.3
Brees: 11.0
Adjusted Yds. Gained/Pass
Eli: 7.3
Brees: 9.0
Yards/Attempt
Eli: 7.5
Brees: 8.2
They're throwing the ball about the same distance per play, but one guy is clearly doing it better than the other. And look at red zone performance:
Eli: Inside 20 - 48% completions, 19/2; Inside 10 - 47%, 13/1
Brees (astounding numbers): Inside 20 - 72% completions, 22/0; Inside 10 - 72%, 16/0
It's unfair to compare anyone to Brees, but you can see that in the short passing game there's a definite difference between a checkdown artist (which Eli was in 2018) and a grandmaster.
Gotcha, I agree.
Why is being like Eli not a good thing?
Well, he was 28/43, 373 yards, and 3 TDs in the Superbowl. And caught a TD pass...
So he managed that game quite well. ;)
Quote:
This narrative around Foles like he is a good NFL QB is a strange one. He won on the strength of the back of the team, he most certainly did not elevate those around him.
Well, he was 28/43, 373 yards, and 3 TDs in the Superbowl. And caught a TD pass...
So he managed that game quite well. ;)
He did manage to throw to wide open receivers very well in that game. I was having cognitive dissonance that Bill Belichik was standing on the sideline.
Agreed. The lack of arm strength was evident. More evidence why we shouldn't take a QB this year. But Jones will still likely be taken in the first round, when Finley can probably be had in the third with a trade up. I'd pass on Finley as well, but I don't see a lot of difference between him and Jones.
Quote:
timing offense because that arm is not made for the long game in the NFL.
Agreed. The lack of arm strength was evident. More evidence why we shouldn't take a QB this year. But Jones will still likely be taken in the first round, when Finley can probably be had in the third with a trade up. I'd pass on Finley as well, but I don't see a lot of difference between him and Jones.
At the end of the day, arm strength matters. I have it right there with accuracy. The NFL gets very uncomfortable in the pocket, and you'd better be able to get the ball there because the windows close a lot quicker than college. And the stronger the arm, the longer a QB can wait to make the throw.
I have become very interested in Finley. I wasn't coming into the year, but took a long second look. His pro day tomorrow is important for his standing as well. I think he's a solid second round candidate...
I believe he can be a decent starter for the right team but his Draft window opens in Round 2.
When I look at this year's class, last year's and next year's, for all the criticisms about what he's not, Jones definitely rates well at the top 3 criteria. He had low turnover numbers, his completion % over 3 years held steady at 60% despite having a lot of dropped balls, and athletically he ran for more yards than anyone other than Murray - including Tua, Fromm, Herbert, Lock, Haskins, Mayfield, Darnold etc. Smart, accurate, and mobile are a very good start for any qb (and he's tough).
By far his 2 weakest areas in comparison statistically were YPA and TD. How much of that was his own lack of talent vs. the (lack of) talent of those around him? That's the key question. I don't think he'll ever have the obvious flashy talent of a Mahomes/Mayfield. If he did he'd be in the 1st overall discussion. But if he has the talent to be the next Foles or Smith I think that's worth a first round pick depending on the circumstances. If another no-brainer like Barkley is on the board maybe you pass at 6 and try to move up for him from #17?
PFF also had his receivers dropping 39 balls this year to lead CFB. He only had 392 attempts, so literally 10% of his passes were dropped. Not hard to do the math on what his numbers could have been with better players around him who could have just made the plays that were there, forgetting possibly having the ability to make some more big plays.
In his 3 years at Duke I don't think he had a single 1,000 receiver to throw to (or even WR who got drafted since Crowder got drafted the year before his first year).
I believe he can be a decent starter for the right team but his Draft window opens in Round 2.
That about sums it up for me as well.
It is worth pointing out, however, Jones looks like a good athlete and has interesting mobility skills.
I will also add... at the very end when they moved him to the 20 he was amazing. Every throw until the end was perfect placement. He threw perfect fades and was very accurate on every throw.
So what does that tell me. Well I see Alex Smith honestly. His short game almost is exactly like him if you ask me.
That’s a very good comparison and an accurate assessment. I really like the Smith comp I see that as well after you said it. I rewatched it on YouTube and it rings true. Good analysis!
Well, you're wrong. The WR who hurt his hamstring was running a fly on the right side.
Jones threw three deep go routes on the left side that were wobbly and way under-thrown.
He had another poor pass to the right side as well on a go route.
Agree, I actually went into it not too familiar with Jones and came away somewhat impressed. I watched it later in the day after reading through this thread and fully expected to see rainbow duck after duck with no arm strength but I saw a very good showing with some really good throws with great accuracy. I'm not saying he's the guy and I know it's only a pro day but it was impressive IMO.
[quote] Any throws down the left that were way under thrown. Just because the ball is wobbly doesn't make it bad. [/quote
If he doesn't throw a tight spiral, when he's playing in the winds of Giants Stadium the ball will die on some throws.
haskins is the best pure passer in the draft
jones moves well and is accurate
lock has a big arm and can move but has some accuracy issues
murray is very skilled all around but worry about him holding up
they all bring something unique i guess...
I believe Finley and Murray are the best pure passers with Lock just a notch behind. I will admit that I am biased against Haskins. I just don't think his game translates well to the NFL.
Quote:
Any throws down the left that were way under thrown. Just because the ball is wobbly doesn't make it bad.
Agree, I actually went into it not too familiar with Jones and came away somewhat impressed. I watched it later in the day after reading through this thread and fully expected to see rainbow duck after duck with no arm strength but I saw a very good showing with some really good throws with great accuracy. I'm not saying he's the guy and I know it's only a pro day but it was impressive IMO.
In defense of those like me who were watching, I think what happened is a few of us would post that we saw a wobbler at the same time on the SAME throw. And that sort of gave the illusion this was happening pass after pass after pass...
Like I said yesterday, Jones definitely exhibited good athleticism. And there are tools to work with on roll outs and hitting underneath routes with some pretty accuracy.
To me, Jones is a classic finesse QB. He's a bigger version of Lauletta. But I'm not sure he's any better than Lauletta. So why draft Lauletta, V2?
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