The leadership in the community has actually been very responsible since the outbreak began. Rabbis have been encouraging their (I don't know what you call it; in my church it's a congregation) people to get vaccinated. That tells me that there is no specific religious prohibition against vaccination.
The leadership in the community has actually been very responsible since the outbreak began. Rabbis have been encouraging their (I don't know what you call it; in my church it's a congregation) people to get vaccinated. That tells me that there is no specific religious prohibition against vaccination.
I agree Bill they have been. But it’s just frustrating that it even gets to that point.
That's why some religions say they are anti-religious.
I'm totally for vaccinations, and have a bat shit in-law that spews off about this shit all the time.
There's not. Vaccine strain viruses are grown in cell cultures that have been passaged for hundreds of generations. *even* if there was some connection to an aborted fetus for the progenitor cells, that cells is about as far removed from current day as we would be from Moses.
This was an issue in Vancouver (WA) and Portland, and now there have been a couple confirmed cases here in Salem too. I've got a 4 year old kid, and it's pretty damn frustrating that there's a chance he could still get the measles because the vaccination is (I think) around 95% effective.
Idiots. Replace mythology with an episode of Cosmos and we'd all be better for it.
Quote:
“If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or you can inoculate. ... Choose science.”
Soooo how do you know what kids are unvaccinated? Â
The leadership in the community has actually been very responsible since the outbreak began. Rabbis have been encouraging their (I don't know what you call it; in my church it's a congregation) people to get vaccinated. That tells me that there is no specific religious prohibition against vaccination.
if someone with half a brain knows their kids aren’t vaccinated, they would not bring them into an area where they can be exposed, hopefully eliminating the problem.
That's why some religions say they are anti-religious.
I'm totally for vaccinations, and have a bat shit in-law that spews off about this shit all the time.
There's not. Vaccine strain viruses are grown in cell cultures that have been passaged for hundreds of generations. *even* if there was some connection to an aborted fetus for the progenitor cells, that cells is about as far removed from current day as we would be from Moses.
There's the truth, and there's what people read on Facebook from their dumb in-laws and conspiracy theorist uncles.
There's a scary amount of inaccurate and wrong health info out there being trafficked.
I have the same questions about enforcability. And, it's retroactive. SO how are they going to go back and figure out that you were at Price Chopper last month and unvaccinated.?
I have the same questions about enforcability. And, it's retroactive. SO how are they going to go back and figure out that you were at Price Chopper last month and unvaccinated.?
if someone with half a brain knows their kids aren’t vaccinated, they would not bring them into an area where they can be exposed, hopefully eliminating the problem.
Probably won’t work.
Sadly, that's giving people too much credit
RE: There was a thread on this a while back that spiraled out of control Â
but in my opinion, you should be allowed to do whatever you want within reason with regard to religion as long as you are not hurting or negatively impacting the quality of life of innocent bystanders.
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
RE: RE: There was a thread on this a while back that spiraled out of control Â
but in my opinion, you should be allowed to do whatever you want within reason with regard to religion as long as you are not hurting or negatively impacting the quality of life of innocent bystanders.
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
Same thing montana. That’s insane to me. But hiw are they able to build so much? 1+1 isnt equalling 2 here.
they work the laws and the politicians to the utmost degree. Officials up for election want their vote (or their money, which isn’t proven but widely speculated).
Skoufis is working on a bill so that government officials who sign through grants for them have to put their name on it. They received $2 million anonymous dollars recently and nobody knows who it is from (which sounds as ridiculous as it is). At least if these are made public, officials might be scared to have to put their name on it.
Things might be changing but it will take a long time.
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
It’s actually pretty serious, especially for young children. Prior to vaccination there were about 600 reported deaths per year. Plus, there were a non insignificant number f death due to secondary infections like pneumonia.
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
Because most just "missed a few days of school" we should ignore a simple, cheap vaccine for it? Or pretend that some don't handle it as well and become seriously ill or even die from the entirely preventable disease?
RE: RE: RE: There was a thread on this a while back that spiraled out of control Â
but in my opinion, you should be allowed to do whatever you want within reason with regard to religion as long as you are not hurting or negatively impacting the quality of life of innocent bystanders.
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
Same thing montana. That’s insane to me. But hiw are they able to build so much? 1+1 isnt equalling 2 here.
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
Yeah I had the mumps, chickenpox and measles, but I still don't wish for my children to get any of them if easily avoided, so we had them vaccinated.
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
So was dying in fender benders and teachers smoking in their classrooms...
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
So was dying in fender benders and teachers smoking in their classrooms...
My HS even allowed the students to smoke in a designated area. I don't think too many are doing that these days.
RE: RE: RE: RE: There was a thread on this a while back that spiraled out of control Â
but in my opinion, you should be allowed to do whatever you want within reason with regard to religion as long as you are not hurting or negatively impacting the quality of life of innocent bystanders.
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
Same thing montana. That’s insane to me. But hiw are they able to build so much? 1+1 isnt equalling 2 here.
but in my opinion, you should be allowed to do whatever you want within reason with regard to religion as long as you are not hurting or negatively impacting the quality of life of innocent bystanders.
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
Same thing montana. That’s insane to me. But hiw are they able to build so much? 1+1 isnt equalling 2 here.
It's definitely rigged somehow
The FBI has raided Kiryas Joel a few times for misuse of federal funds and grants. This was one recent article. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/School-Officials-Rabbis-Arrested-in-14-Million-Rockland-County-Funding-Scam-491999051.html - ( New Window )
This was an issue in Vancouver (WA) and Portland, and now there have been a couple confirmed cases here in Salem too. I've got a 4 year old kid, and it's pretty damn frustrating that there's a chance he could still get the measles because the vaccination is (I think) around 95% effective.
Idiots. Replace mythology with an episode of Cosmos and we'd all be better for it.
Quote:
“If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or you can inoculate. ... Choose science.”
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
Yeah I had the mumps, chickenpox and measles, but I still don't wish for my children to get any of them if easily avoided, so we had them vaccinated.
PLUS, cancer patients are often immunosuppressed. So why does their life have to be in danger because of the idiotic stance of the anti-vaccination crowd? This is not a close call. Vaccinations should be mandatory. Her immunity is a real thing and one should not benefit from it, and opt out, unless there is a medical need.
reason for Orthodox Jews to refuse immunization for themselves or their children. None whatsoever. Beyond that, there are general, broad based halacha about maintaining one's health.
One of the most strict commonly observed practices in Judaism is to fast on Yom Kippur, the anual day of atonement. The fast is over 24 hours, sunset to sunset, and to observe it properly one neither eats nor drinks anything during the fast. My wife is modestly observant, and she always fasts for the full time period. She was doing so during her pregnancy with our first child, and became very weak. I urged her to eat and drink a little something, because I had spoken to the Orthodox Rabbi who oversaw the Kashrut (Kosher) of the wine we were making, and he told me she absolutely should not fast during Yom Kippur, because providing for the best health of the unborn child was MORE IMPORTANT than fasting to make her own "atonement" for the prior year.
Ignoring the health of your children, not doing everything in a parent's power to insure the health and well being of their children - this behavior is logically prohibited by halacha. Any group of Orthodox spinning something else are flat out wrong by the majority opinion among the Orthodox that I know and deal with regularly.
Sorry for being windy. It's a shame and a tragedy to fail to immunize your children. Pretty unheard of in Israel itself, so far as I know. There's even a special branch of the Israeli national health care service that oversees the regular vaccination of all children at the proscribed ages. It's called "Tipat Hakav" and is a 100% free service. Besides immunizations, the organization provides regular check-ups for youngsters' visual, hearing, mental processing, etc at various age check points.
Would love to know how one can validate their vaccines. Â
Called one of my Pediatricians for an unrelated request and they no longer have any of my childhood records.
In Israel, the record keeping is actually the responsibility of the parents, imagine that?
The org is called "Tipat Halav" (typo earlier) and they issue the parents a little red book which outlines the age in months for each vaccination or infant and toddler check up. At the time of each procedure, the book gets stamped by the pediatrician's office staff. You're supposed to keep this little booklet for life I guess. Since my kids are teens, IDK if they've switched the record keeping to on line stevices like all other med records.
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
Because most just "missed a few days of school" we should ignore a simple, cheap vaccine for it? Or pretend that some don't handle it as well and become seriously ill or even die from the entirely preventable disease?
No medical treatment is perfect. Maybe take a look at the vaccine side effects. There are side effects and you can bet that some parents have looked at the list. So, it's a judgment call for some parents: run the risk of having the kids get measles or risk the vaccine. I had my kids vaccinated, but after looking at the list; doesn't mean that there wouldn't be some who dont' Yes, there are side effects. - ( New Window )
But I was under the impression this is an Hasidic issue not orthodox issue. I think it’s utterly fair to call into question some of the practices of hasidics, not the least of which is the (at times) abominable treatment of women and propensity for (allegedly) government fraud. To me this is akin to a Christian calling out some of the Mormon polygamy cults in Utah. It’s not being anti Semitic it’s called being human and having issue with people being treated horribly.
There is a similar outbreak in Lakewood, and having a 3 year old and 4 month old down in this area i am constantly worried about bringing them to certain parks or kid places. It’s not necessarily rationale but parenthood strips you of rational thought when you are constantly afraid of things like the flu, rsv, and pneumonia. When you throw in a disease that was essentially eradicated it’s just that much more frustrating. And mmr is only 97% effective, which obviously is high but that 3% looms large when stakes are so massive for a parent.
RE: There is no halachic (religious law or practice related) Â
reason for Orthodox Jews to refuse immunization for themselves or their children. None whatsoever. Beyond that, there are general, broad based halacha about maintaining one's health.
One of the most strict commonly observed practices in Judaism is to fast on Yom Kippur, the anual day of atonement. The fast is over 24 hours, sunset to sunset, and to observe it properly one neither eats nor drinks anything during the fast. My wife is modestly observant, and she always fasts for the full time period. She was doing so during her pregnancy with our first child, and became very weak. I urged her to eat and drink a little something, because I had spoken to the Orthodox Rabbi who oversaw the Kashrut (Kosher) of the wine we were making, and he told me she absolutely should not fast during Yom Kippur, because providing for the best health of the unborn child was MORE IMPORTANT than fasting to make her own "atonement" for the prior year.
Ignoring the health of your children, not doing everything in a parent's power to insure the health and well being of their children - this behavior is logically prohibited by halacha. Any group of Orthodox spinning something else are flat out wrong by the majority opinion among the Orthodox that I know and deal with regularly.
Sorry for being windy. It's a shame and a tragedy to fail to immunize your children. Pretty unheard of in Israel itself, so far as I know. There's even a special branch of the Israeli national health care service that oversees the regular vaccination of all children at the proscribed ages. It's called "Tipat Hakav" and is a 100% free service. Besides immunizations, the organization provides regular check-ups for youngsters' visual, hearing, mental processing, etc at various age check points.
Lou, don't mean to disagree because you're obviously more knowledgeable about Israel than I am (as are probably most people), but I do know for sure that the introduction of measles for this specific outbreak in Rockland County was from travelers returning from visits to Israel. Also, in our public health notes, there have been several bullets about measles' outbreaks in Israel and the frustration of the gov't with anti-vaxxers there.
NY is working their way towards this, but other states have already limited vaccination exemptions to medical only.
Notably, California stopped religious and philosophical exemptions after the Disneyland measles outbreak and went to medical exemptions only. Perhaps not surprisingly, medical exemptions went up 3-fold immediately.
So, there's now a bill in front of the CA legislature to shift the power to grant medical exemptions from individual doctors to public health departments. Apparently, some asshole MD's are "selling" medical exemptions (and even surreptitiously advertising the practice).
As you might expect, anti-vaxxers are protesting the proposal and there was apparently even a fist-fight between a supporter and opponents of the proposal in or near the capitol.
Read an article that was titled that recently, and it was all about how social media helps movements like Anti Vaxxing grow in unprecedented numbers.
That's essentially how it started. Some hack doctor in the UK gained a following by promoting the dangers of Autism vaccines actually causing children to develop autism, got a few celebrities to buy into his ideas, and despite the fact that his information was debunked by a medical committee and he had his medical license revoked, the misinformation took off.
Several notable Hollywood personalities also are proudly anti-vaccine.
Lou, don't mean to disagree because you're obviously more knowledgeable about Israel than I am (as are probably most people), but I do know for sure that the introduction of measles for this specific outbreak in Rockland County was from travelers returning from visits to Israel. Also, in our public health notes, there have been several bullets about measles' outbreaks in Israel and the frustration of the gov't with anti-vaxxers there.
Bill I cited Halachal reasons why the Orthodox - at any level - should immunize their children. I also noted that the numerous Orthodox people I deal with through work and family - many of whom fit most comfortably into the "Modern Orthodox" community and several who fit more strictly observant - don't fail to immunize their kids or themselves.
And the government health care authorities heavily promote vaccinations and other infant/toddler care to the point where there is a special branch of the system designed specifically for kid 1-3 years old. There is indeed a Tipat Halav clinic in Beit El, I have been there on errand for friends. Beit El is a pretty small town of Ultra Orthodox inhabitants in the West Bank very close to Ramallah, classified by most as an "Israeli settlement."
I can't speak for and about other Orthodox communities. My Halachic knowledge comes from a very strict Community known as Chabad. They have more influence and members in New York City and Rockland County than in Israel, in fact.
I'm saddened to hear the epidemiological evidence points to Israel and alarmed. My wife is a pubic elementary school teacher, and she's never mentioned this problem. Of course, Orthodox kids go to separate schools.
The last note I saw on numbers was 3400 in Israel in February Â
Today's bulletin listed 2 new cases in Ashdod (?), both at Asuta Medical Institute. The ones the week prior were in Ashkelon and Netanya. I don't know any of those places; are the geographically close enough to hit the same communities?
The measles outbreak is particularly huge in Eastern Europe right now. I believe that's where the outbreak in Washington State/Oregon originated.
RE: The last note I saw on numbers was 3400 in Israel in February Â
Today's bulletin listed 2 new cases in Ashdod (?), both at Asuta Medical Institute. The ones the week prior were in Ashkelon and Netanya. I don't know any of those places; are the geographically close enough to hit the same communities?
The measles outbreak is particularly huge in Eastern Europe right now. I believe that's where the outbreak in Washington State/Oregon originated.
Ashdod and Ashkelon are close to each other on the southern Mediterranean coast, south of Tell Aviv moving towards the Gazan border, about 30 mins by car (or less) city center to center. Interesting about Eastern Europe as a hotbed of the epidemic; both Ashdod plus Ashkelon have heavy demographics of Russian immigrants from the past 20 years, as does Netanya which is much further away up the coast between Tel Aviv and Haifa.
My wife (before we were married) taught in a public school in Ashdod with numerous students the progeny of Russian immigrants parents, as well as a Rusdian immigrant principal above her. She was very favorably impressed by the social values she encountered among the Russian immigrant's community. The parents and kids were very pro education and backed her strongly whenever issues of discipline arose, which was not common IIRC. I say this because she often has complaints about the sense of entitlement she encounters from some Israeli students and especially from their parents.
I wouldn't think (stretching here) it would be the kind of community to ignore vaccinations - just the opposite. Again, that doesn't speak to the strict Orthodox communities in those cities.
Today's bulletin listed 2 new cases in Ashdod (?), both at Asuta Medical Institute. The ones the week prior were in Ashkelon and Netanya. I don't know any of those places; are the geographically close enough to hit the same communities?
The measles outbreak is particularly huge in Eastern Europe right now. I believe that's where the outbreak in Washington State/Oregon originated.
Ashdod and Ashkelon are close to each other on the southern Mediterranean coast, south of Tell Aviv moving towards the Gazan border, about 30 mins by car (or less) city center to center. Interesting about Eastern Europe as a hotbed of the epidemic; both Ashdod plus Ashkelon have heavy demographics of Russian immigrants from the past 20 years, as does Netanya which is much further away up the coast between Tel Aviv and Haifa.
My wife (before we were married) taught in a public school in Ashdod with numerous students the progeny of Russian immigrants parents, as well as a Rusdian immigrant principal above her. She was very favorably impressed by the social values she encountered among the Russian immigrant's community. The parents and kids were very pro education and backed her strongly whenever issues of discipline arose, which was not common IIRC. I say this because she often has complaints about the sense of entitlement she encounters from some Israeli students and especially from their parents.
I wouldn't think (stretching here) it would be the kind of community to ignore vaccinations - just the opposite. Again, that doesn't speak to the strict Orthodox communities in those cities.
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
I agree Bill they have been. But it’s just frustrating that it even gets to that point.
That's why some religions say they are anti-religious.
I'm totally for vaccinations, and have a bat shit in-law that spews off about this shit all the time.
That's why some religions say they are anti-religious.
I'm totally for vaccinations, and have a bat shit in-law that spews off about this shit all the time.
There's not. Vaccine strain viruses are grown in cell cultures that have been passaged for hundreds of generations. *even* if there was some connection to an aborted fetus for the progenitor cells, that cells is about as far removed from current day as we would be from Moses.
Idiots. Replace mythology with an episode of Cosmos and we'd all be better for it.
Well, I suppose they could put red dots all over their faces and bodies....
Quote:
Put some sort of marking on them? I mean how the hell can this be enforced?
Well, I suppose they could put red dots all over their faces and bodies....
It doesn't say all contagious kids. It say unvaccinated. How do you tell someone is unvaccinated if they aren't showing symptoms?
Congregation works for us too.
Probably won’t work.
Quote:
in vaccines.
That's why some religions say they are anti-religious.
I'm totally for vaccinations, and have a bat shit in-law that spews off about this shit all the time.
There's not. Vaccine strain viruses are grown in cell cultures that have been passaged for hundreds of generations. *even* if there was some connection to an aborted fetus for the progenitor cells, that cells is about as far removed from current day as we would be from Moses.
There's the truth, and there's what people read on Facebook from their dumb in-laws and conspiracy theorist uncles.
There's a scary amount of inaccurate and wrong health info out there being trafficked.
Gotcha. Sorry I thought you were being sarcastic.
Probably won’t work.
Sadly, that's giving people too much credit
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
Quote:
but in my opinion, you should be allowed to do whatever you want within reason with regard to religion as long as you are not hurting or negatively impacting the quality of life of innocent bystanders.
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
Same thing montana. That’s insane to me. But hiw are they able to build so much? 1+1 isnt equalling 2 here.
Skoufis is working on a bill so that government officials who sign through grants for them have to put their name on it. They received $2 million anonymous dollars recently and nobody knows who it is from (which sounds as ridiculous as it is). At least if these are made public, officials might be scared to have to put their name on it.
Things might be changing but it will take a long time.
I believe the irony supplement comes in English class.
It’s actually pretty serious, especially for young children. Prior to vaccination there were about 600 reported deaths per year. Plus, there were a non insignificant number f death due to secondary infections like pneumonia.
Because most just "missed a few days of school" we should ignore a simple, cheap vaccine for it? Or pretend that some don't handle it as well and become seriously ill or even die from the entirely preventable disease?
Quote:
In comment 14358016 mattnyg05 said:
Quote:
but in my opinion, you should be allowed to do whatever you want within reason with regard to religion as long as you are not hurting or negatively impacting the quality of life of innocent bystanders.
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
Same thing montana. That’s insane to me. But hiw are they able to build so much? 1+1 isnt equalling 2 here.
It's definitely rigged somehow
Yeah I had the mumps, chickenpox and measles, but I still don't wish for my children to get any of them if easily avoided, so we had them vaccinated.
So was dying in fender benders and teachers smoking in their classrooms...
Quote:
That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
So was dying in fender benders and teachers smoking in their classrooms...
My HS even allowed the students to smoke in a designated area. I don't think too many are doing that these days.
Quote:
In comment 14358465 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14358016 mattnyg05 said:
Quote:
but in my opinion, you should be allowed to do whatever you want within reason with regard to religion as long as you are not hurting or negatively impacting the quality of life of innocent bystanders.
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
Same thing montana. That’s insane to me. But hiw are they able to build so much? 1+1 isnt equalling 2 here.
It's definitely rigged somehow
The FBI has raided Kiryas Joel a few times for misuse of federal funds and grants. This was one recent article.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/School-Officials-Rabbis-Arrested-in-14-Million-Rockland-County-Funding-Scam-491999051.html - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 14358495 TurdFurguson said:
Quote:
In comment 14358465 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14358016 mattnyg05 said:
Quote:
but in my opinion, you should be allowed to do whatever you want within reason with regard to religion as long as you are not hurting or negatively impacting the quality of life of innocent bystanders.
Not only measles but there are many other situations where people outside of that community have been harmed - mostly financially - and at what point does the charade end? A classmate of mine, James Skoufis, was recently elected to the NYS Senate and his platform was making a lot of the wrongs (within Kiryas Joel) clearer and fairer for everyone. We’ll see how far he can take it but he beat their block votes to win election.
Your post made me read up on Kiryas Joel. Holy shit they are the poorest county in the country and are 50 miles away from NYC. Never heard of this before.
Same thing montana. That’s insane to me. But hiw are they able to build so much? 1+1 isnt equalling 2 here.
It's definitely rigged somehow
The FBI has raided Kiryas Joel a few times for misuse of federal funds and grants. This was one recent article. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/School-Officials-Rabbis-Arrested-in-14-Million-Rockland-County-Funding-Scam-491999051.html - ( New Window )
LOL...I am literally blown away over this crap.
Idiots. Replace mythology with an episode of Cosmos and we'd all be better for it.
Quote:
“If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or you can inoculate. ... Choose science.”
++++
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That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
Yeah I had the mumps, chickenpox and measles, but I still don't wish for my children to get any of them if easily avoided, so we had them vaccinated.
PLUS, cancer patients are often immunosuppressed. So why does their life have to be in danger because of the idiotic stance of the anti-vaccination crowd? This is not a close call. Vaccinations should be mandatory. Her immunity is a real thing and one should not benefit from it, and opt out, unless there is a medical need.
One of the most strict commonly observed practices in Judaism is to fast on Yom Kippur, the anual day of atonement. The fast is over 24 hours, sunset to sunset, and to observe it properly one neither eats nor drinks anything during the fast. My wife is modestly observant, and she always fasts for the full time period. She was doing so during her pregnancy with our first child, and became very weak. I urged her to eat and drink a little something, because I had spoken to the Orthodox Rabbi who oversaw the Kashrut (Kosher) of the wine we were making, and he told me she absolutely should not fast during Yom Kippur, because providing for the best health of the unborn child was MORE IMPORTANT than fasting to make her own "atonement" for the prior year.
Ignoring the health of your children, not doing everything in a parent's power to insure the health and well being of their children - this behavior is logically prohibited by halacha. Any group of Orthodox spinning something else are flat out wrong by the majority opinion among the Orthodox that I know and deal with regularly.
Sorry for being windy. It's a shame and a tragedy to fail to immunize your children. Pretty unheard of in Israel itself, so far as I know. There's even a special branch of the Israeli national health care service that oversees the regular vaccination of all children at the proscribed ages. It's called "Tipat Hakav" and is a 100% free service. Besides immunizations, the organization provides regular check-ups for youngsters' visual, hearing, mental processing, etc at various age check points.
Is this the pediatrician who gave you the vaccines?
If it is ,you can get your blood timers drawn to make sure you have the immunities.
In Israel, the record keeping is actually the responsibility of the parents, imagine that?
The org is called "Tipat Halav" (typo earlier) and they issue the parents a little red book which outlines the age in months for each vaccination or infant and toddler check up. At the time of each procedure, the book gets stamped by the pediatrician's office staff. You're supposed to keep this little booklet for life I guess. Since my kids are teens, IDK if they've switched the record keeping to on line stevices like all other med records.
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That measles and chicken pox was a normal part of growing up. You caught it, if there were siblings they all got it, everyone missed a few days of school and that was it. Guarantee you there are people on this site who have been through it.
Because most just "missed a few days of school" we should ignore a simple, cheap vaccine for it? Or pretend that some don't handle it as well and become seriously ill or even die from the entirely preventable disease?
Yes, there are side effects. - ( New Window )
Ridiculous.
There is a similar outbreak in Lakewood, and having a 3 year old and 4 month old down in this area i am constantly worried about bringing them to certain parks or kid places. It’s not necessarily rationale but parenthood strips you of rational thought when you are constantly afraid of things like the flu, rsv, and pneumonia. When you throw in a disease that was essentially eradicated it’s just that much more frustrating. And mmr is only 97% effective, which obviously is high but that 3% looms large when stakes are so massive for a parent.
One of the most strict commonly observed practices in Judaism is to fast on Yom Kippur, the anual day of atonement. The fast is over 24 hours, sunset to sunset, and to observe it properly one neither eats nor drinks anything during the fast. My wife is modestly observant, and she always fasts for the full time period. She was doing so during her pregnancy with our first child, and became very weak. I urged her to eat and drink a little something, because I had spoken to the Orthodox Rabbi who oversaw the Kashrut (Kosher) of the wine we were making, and he told me she absolutely should not fast during Yom Kippur, because providing for the best health of the unborn child was MORE IMPORTANT than fasting to make her own "atonement" for the prior year.
Ignoring the health of your children, not doing everything in a parent's power to insure the health and well being of their children - this behavior is logically prohibited by halacha. Any group of Orthodox spinning something else are flat out wrong by the majority opinion among the Orthodox that I know and deal with regularly.
Sorry for being windy. It's a shame and a tragedy to fail to immunize your children. Pretty unheard of in Israel itself, so far as I know. There's even a special branch of the Israeli national health care service that oversees the regular vaccination of all children at the proscribed ages. It's called "Tipat Hakav" and is a 100% free service. Besides immunizations, the organization provides regular check-ups for youngsters' visual, hearing, mental processing, etc at various age check points.
Lou, don't mean to disagree because you're obviously more knowledgeable about Israel than I am (as are probably most people), but I do know for sure that the introduction of measles for this specific outbreak in Rockland County was from travelers returning from visits to Israel. Also, in our public health notes, there have been several bullets about measles' outbreaks in Israel and the frustration of the gov't with anti-vaxxers there.
Notably, California stopped religious and philosophical exemptions after the Disneyland measles outbreak and went to medical exemptions only. Perhaps not surprisingly, medical exemptions went up 3-fold immediately.
So, there's now a bill in front of the CA legislature to shift the power to grant medical exemptions from individual doctors to public health departments. Apparently, some asshole MD's are "selling" medical exemptions (and even surreptitiously advertising the practice).
As you might expect, anti-vaxxers are protesting the proposal and there was apparently even a fist-fight between a supporter and opponents of the proposal in or near the capitol.
That's essentially how it started. Some hack doctor in the UK gained a following by promoting the dangers of Autism vaccines actually causing children to develop autism, got a few celebrities to buy into his ideas, and despite the fact that his information was debunked by a medical committee and he had his medical license revoked, the misinformation took off.
Several notable Hollywood personalities also are proudly anti-vaccine.
I mean wtf?
Lou, don't mean to disagree because you're obviously more knowledgeable about Israel than I am (as are probably most people), but I do know for sure that the introduction of measles for this specific outbreak in Rockland County was from travelers returning from visits to Israel. Also, in our public health notes, there have been several bullets about measles' outbreaks in Israel and the frustration of the gov't with anti-vaxxers there.
Bill I cited Halachal reasons why the Orthodox - at any level - should immunize their children. I also noted that the numerous Orthodox people I deal with through work and family - many of whom fit most comfortably into the "Modern Orthodox" community and several who fit more strictly observant - don't fail to immunize their kids or themselves.
And the government health care authorities heavily promote vaccinations and other infant/toddler care to the point where there is a special branch of the system designed specifically for kid 1-3 years old. There is indeed a Tipat Halav clinic in Beit El, I have been there on errand for friends. Beit El is a pretty small town of Ultra Orthodox inhabitants in the West Bank very close to Ramallah, classified by most as an "Israeli settlement."
I can't speak for and about other Orthodox communities. My Halachic knowledge comes from a very strict Community known as Chabad. They have more influence and members in New York City and Rockland County than in Israel, in fact.
I'm saddened to hear the epidemiological evidence points to Israel and alarmed. My wife is a pubic elementary school teacher, and she's never mentioned this problem. Of course, Orthodox kids go to separate schools.
The measles outbreak is particularly huge in Eastern Europe right now. I believe that's where the outbreak in Washington State/Oregon originated.
The measles outbreak is particularly huge in Eastern Europe right now. I believe that's where the outbreak in Washington State/Oregon originated.
Ashdod and Ashkelon are close to each other on the southern Mediterranean coast, south of Tell Aviv moving towards the Gazan border, about 30 mins by car (or less) city center to center. Interesting about Eastern Europe as a hotbed of the epidemic; both Ashdod plus Ashkelon have heavy demographics of Russian immigrants from the past 20 years, as does Netanya which is much further away up the coast between Tel Aviv and Haifa.
My wife (before we were married) taught in a public school in Ashdod with numerous students the progeny of Russian immigrants parents, as well as a Rusdian immigrant principal above her. She was very favorably impressed by the social values she encountered among the Russian immigrant's community. The parents and kids were very pro education and backed her strongly whenever issues of discipline arose, which was not common IIRC. I say this because she often has complaints about the sense of entitlement she encounters from some Israeli students and especially from their parents.
I wouldn't think (stretching here) it would be the kind of community to ignore vaccinations - just the opposite. Again, that doesn't speak to the strict Orthodox communities in those cities.
Talk about slow on the uptake.
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Today's bulletin listed 2 new cases in Ashdod (?), both at Asuta Medical Institute. The ones the week prior were in Ashkelon and Netanya. I don't know any of those places; are the geographically close enough to hit the same communities?
The measles outbreak is particularly huge in Eastern Europe right now. I believe that's where the outbreak in Washington State/Oregon originated.
Ashdod and Ashkelon are close to each other on the southern Mediterranean coast, south of Tell Aviv moving towards the Gazan border, about 30 mins by car (or less) city center to center. Interesting about Eastern Europe as a hotbed of the epidemic; both Ashdod plus Ashkelon have heavy demographics of Russian immigrants from the past 20 years, as does Netanya which is much further away up the coast between Tel Aviv and Haifa.
My wife (before we were married) taught in a public school in Ashdod with numerous students the progeny of Russian immigrants parents, as well as a Rusdian immigrant principal above her. She was very favorably impressed by the social values she encountered among the Russian immigrant's community. The parents and kids were very pro education and backed her strongly whenever issues of discipline arose, which was not common IIRC. I say this because she often has complaints about the sense of entitlement she encounters from some Israeli students and especially from their parents.
I wouldn't think (stretching here) it would be the kind of community to ignore vaccinations - just the opposite. Again, that doesn't speak to the strict Orthodox communities in those cities.
This is good stuff. I appreciate it.
Of course this would be your response.
Of course.