Take this for whatever it's worth.
1) Remmers has agreed to terms with the Giants. He cannot pass a physical. Once he can he's signing a 2 yr deal with the Giants. They anticipate he'll be healthy by early May.
2) The giants are interested in Rosen but will not part with one of their top 3 picks. I was told they would offer this years 3 and a future conditional 3. The biggest fear with the Giants is acquiring Rosen is an immediate QB controversy. It would start in OTA's both in the media and locker room. Conversely, a guy like Jones or lock the fans and media will understand needs time to sit.
3) The Giants are going defense with their first pick. Williams will be the pick if he falls (same with allen or bosa) If he's gone the Giants like, in order, White, Burns, Gary.
4) The Giants love Greedy Williams and will take him at 17 if he's on the board.
5) Some free agents they're in contract with. Shane Ray, Mohammad Wilkerson and Danny Shelton. Nothing will happen before the draft.
6) If the giants go offense in the first two rounds it will be a big body WR or a QB. With remmers in the fold the giants will wait til rounds 3 and 4 to bolster their depth.
Flame away
Those moves make a lot of sense.
Here's an idea - f-ckin' manage it.
One thing I forgot, the Giants are in NO way considering giving eli an extension.
#2 is sad and pathetic and explains the Giants current predicament.
jtgiants has alludes to the fact that we won’t bring in Rosen because the starting job was promised to Eli. I really hope that is incorrect information.
Yeah, no riddles, inferences or pictures. Just straight-up info.
Have you heard if they are seriously considering Lock at 6?
jtgiants has alludes to the fact that we won’t bring in Rosen because the starting job was promised to Eli. I really hope that is incorrect information.
"Job promised to Eli"... NOBODY should be promised ANYTHING. No wonder this org has been a dumpster fire over the past several yrs.. and it starts with ownership. I'll say it again, sentiment doesnt will football games!!
NE With multiple day two picks will likely be the team to acquire him IMO. It will be entertaining to see those who didn't want Rosen on the Giants flip and criticize the Giants for not trading for Rosen because Belichick did.
Get a WR in the draft, depth on the lines, and with these additions, the transformation is looking good.
The giants, right or wrong, believe that if they put good enough talent around Eli he can still be a middle tier qb. They know they need his replacement but they dont think he's completely shot and arent going to force a QB just to appease the fans.
As far as the lockerroom, isn't that part of the reason for the massive roster turnover?. Make the move you need to make, then get everyone in line. And screw the noize.
Almost too good to be true
Thanks for the fantasy asshat
Totally agree, Eli is a perfectly acceptable option at QB once the talent around him improves...IMO, he's good for a couple more years.
You answered your question. They could cut Eli and solve it. Or they can bring Rosen in and let them battle it out (never going to happen in a million years). But instead of either of those they will likely stay out and just roll with Eli since they just paid his bonus. That blows, and I don’t even love Rosen, but it would finally let us turn the page.
I hope they are right on Greedy. He looked completely lost at the Combine. Deion pointed out some ways that his technique was shockingly bad.
Eli can still play if everything around him is perfect. It wont be. It isnt that he is immobile it is that he is a traffic cone and needs a good base to throw. Rosen is not a great athlete but he is nimble and can manipulate the pocket. Eli cant. He drops like a sack of potatoes every time someone gets within arms length.
Lets say they do win this year. Maybe 9-7, 10-6 which I think is a huge stretch but if it happens...then what?
I dont mind losing IF we are building towards something. Keeping Eli and going 9-7 (a stretch) does nothing for me.
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assuming #2 is some "worried about Eli" thing? I read it as not wanting a huge every single day distraction with the insane NY media...makes some sense to me as they just got rid of OBJ for the same thing...and, is it that hard to imagine a personality like Rosen's in NY with that situation would potentially make things all the worse. In no way do I see this as some kind of deference to Eli and his feelings...that's just absurd IMO. While I don't think you can guide your franchise based on fear of the media or fan reaction, I also think that NY is a very unique environment and you would be a fool to ignore that all together. Not to mention, the OBJ trade just proves my point in that they obviously didn't overly concern themselves with fan or media reaction.
You answered your question. They could cut Eli and solve it. Or they can bring Rosen in and let them battle it out (never going to happen in a million years). But instead of either of those they will likely stay out and just roll with Eli since they just paid his bonus. That blows, and I don’t even love Rosen, but it would finally let us turn the page.
They obviously think he can still play and is their best option this year and maybe next so they're not cutting him. My point is they aren't doing it to appease Eli IMO.
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-Greedy is the best man to man guy in the draft by far and would be amazing value at 17. Love they are trying to address CB early if true.
-At #6 that short list is definitely not bad but a bit surprising not to see Oliver or Sweat on it. Some of those guys can be had via slight trade down too.
-Q.Will is probably their #1 guy on their entire board because he can line up anywhere on a 3-4 DL and wreak havoc. He would be amazing if we somehow got him.
-Not surprised at the Rosen stuff. It's too bad because he'd be a great fit here. Hopefully we up the offer to a #2.
As far as the lockerroom, isn't that part of the reason for the massive roster turnover?. Make the move you need to make, then get everyone in line. And screw the noize.
90% of the outside world has been killing the Giants for everything they've done this offseason. Doesn't seem to me that they really care.
I hope they are right on Greedy. He looked completely lost at the Combine. Deion pointed out some ways that his technique was shockingly bad.
I saw that piece. Deion was outstanding in that segment.
Agreed. If they were really sold on Rosen the Eli thing wouldn't be an issue at all.
Two years for a guy coming off back surgery who can't pass a physical yet? What if they anticipate wrong and he isn't healthy by May? What then?
Also, a CB or WR early on? Sounds like Jerry Reese 2.0.
I'd like to hear Ed Oliver and Christian Wilkins considered there as well.
Greedy would make sense at 17 but I don't see him available.
I can assure you, we get it.
This organization has renewed their all-in commitment with Eli and we'll likely win between 3-9 games.
Then in the postmortem next year, Gettleman will give us his "crock" line again and we'll be back where we started.
That sound about right?
I've been told they like him...liked him last year...not enough to draft obviously over Saquon and would have taken Darnold over all of them. They just loved saquon that much.
One thing people have to keep in mind is these are real people with jobs. The safe route was to take saquon. The safe route this year is draft into the strength of the draft (defense). This keeps people employed longer than taking a swing on a QB they dont believe in at #6.
As far as the lockerroom, isn't that part of the reason for the massive roster turnover?. Make the move you need to make, then get everyone in line. And screw the noize.
That controversy bleeds into the lockerroom. Tons of questions nonstop to all the players. How is Rosen? Who do you like better? How should be starting? blah blah blah
No disrespect, but "Eli can still play" is not the same thing as "Eli is still getting it done".
What they are doing, in essence, is making excuses for him...blaming his poor performance on other factors. What they aren't doing is asking themselves whether he is the best option.
He's a sacred cow. It's a roster of 52+1.
Also, a CB or WR early on? Sounds like Jerry Reese 2.0.
Is this to say that cornerback isn't a need, or that the position isn't important?
I disagree with both.
1. Eli was never mobile. Not sure what makes you think he's that less mobile now.
2. Rosen not nimble. At all. People like Rosen but I'm just not one of them.
3. No matter what happens this year you won't be happy. You philosophically disagree with them trying to win and there not changing course so it is what it is
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I don't think they love Rosen at all but anything is possible based on value. I've been consistent on what I post particularly regarding Rosen
I've been told they like him...liked him last year...not enough to draft obviously over Saquon and would have taken Darnold over all of them. They just loved saquon that much.
One thing people have to keep in mind is these are real people with jobs. The safe route was to take saquon. The safe route this year is draft into the strength of the draft (defense). This keeps people employed longer than taking a swing on a QB they dont believe in at #6.
Sans Chris Mara... That dude is playing Madden & has zero job security issues!
Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Just my opinion.
But I would imagine they would look for a pretty solid update from the doctors on his progress prior to the draft. Because if the back doesn't improve enough , a later round flier on an OT may not cut it.
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All anti-Eli guys don't get. They think Eli can still play, in fairness so do I, they don't want QB controversy. Here's why? They want to win next year and think they can. Most here don't agree but the aim is to prove many wrong. Either way that's there thinking and it won't change
No disrespect, but "Eli can still play" is not the same thing as "Eli is still getting it done".
What they are doing, in essence, is making excuses for him...blaming his poor performance on other factors. What they aren't doing is asking themselves whether he is the best option.
He's a sacred cow. It's a roster of 52+1.
He’s still a solid QB. I still think they should draft a guy or trade for Rosen. To me the best model is the KC approach that Gettleman has already talked about. Bring in the new guy, let him sit behind Eli for this year. If we start losing a bunch of games, new guy comes in. I get why they are keeping Eli, it’s a league where teams can turn things around very quickly. Rosen or a rookie are not going to give us as good of a chance to win this year. In the future, absolutely.
That can't be the plan. You'd have to be insane to think this defense is a bunch of rookies away from being taken seriously.
In comment 14365840 ron mexico said:
They're committed to Eli for 2019 now. Sean is right...drafting a QB doesn't really support their goal of winning now. Further, if the OP is correct, it's pathetic that they wouldn't bring in a superior prospect (Rosen) at a cheaper cost out of fear that it will cause a QB controversy. Absolutely pathetic.
Rosen is a better prospect than Jones, and it will cost less to get him...but Jones makes Eli safer as the QB.
52+1.
Just my opinion.
He's signing a two year deal that is going to pay him under 6 million per season. Most of the guaranteed $ is upfront. They're paying him to be a stop gap player.
#1 seems the most likely to me.
IMHO waiting till the 3rd or 4th round for an RT is ridiculous.
That said, the Remmers bit rings true.
#1 seems the most likely to me.
IMHO waiting till the 3rd or 4th round for an RT is ridiculous.
RT's slip and are often taken in later rounds.
That said, the Remmers bit rings true.
You're not going to see me actively posting here. When Remmers contract comes in at the # I provided I'll come back for the victory lap lol.
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1) Remmers has agreed to terms with the Giants. He cannot pass a physical. Once he can he's signing a 2 yr deal with the Giants. They anticipate he'll be healthy by early May.
Two years for a guy coming off back surgery who can't pass a physical yet? What if they anticipate wrong and he isn't healthy by May? What then?
Also, a CB or WR early on? Sounds like Jerry Reese 2.0.
I can see your point. My guess is, should the rumor be true, it's a cheap two year contract that will likely end up being for one year - minimum guarantees.
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I don't think they love Rosen at all but anything is possible based on value. I've been consistent on what I post particularly regarding Rosen
I've been told they like him...liked him last year...not enough to draft obviously over Saquon and would have taken Darnold over all of them. They just loved saquon that much.
One thing people have to keep in mind is these are real people with jobs. The safe route was to take saquon. The safe route this year is draft into the strength of the draft (defense). This keeps people employed longer than taking a swing on a QB they dont believe in at #6.
If their focus is on keeping their job by playing it safe and ignoring possible long term options at QB then they don't deserve to keep their jobs.
You can't look at this roster and think super bowl contender. If their goal is just to make the playoffs then they need to be replaced. Getting a young franchise QB is the right choice because that will give them a better shot in the long term. Of course if they get it wrong they will face scrutiny but you can't blame them for trying. Put the faith in your scouts.
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Also, a CB or WR early on? Sounds like Jerry Reese 2.0.
Is this to say that cornerback isn't a need, or that the position isn't important?
I disagree with both.
Sure it's a need, and the position is important, but I think a greater need is to fortify the trenches on both sides of the ball.
Take a quarterback
BBI loves asshats when they are accurate.
The other reason being if our current center doesn’t work out... we will be using a high draft pick next year on the center position.
It’s just how I would roll !!!!
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In comment 14365922 Klaatu said:
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Also, a CB or WR early on? Sounds like Jerry Reese 2.0.
Is this to say that cornerback isn't a need, or that the position isn't important?
I disagree with both.
Sure it's a need, and the position is important, but I think a greater need is to fortify the trenches on both sides of the ball.
Even if it means taking a lesser player? That seems counter productive.
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Giants will overpay for a FA coming off a serious injury. I would pass on Remmers and get my RT in the draft at number 17 who will be a better player.
Just my opinion.
He's signing a two year deal that is going to pay him under 6 million per season. Most of the guaranteed $ is upfront. They're paying him to be a stop gap player.
My prediction is that Remmers will be the stopgap for Tytus Howard.
If we use the top two choices on D then the D will receive a wonderful and badly needed infusion of talent.
#37 could well see someone like Dillard or Risner or Gajuste or McGrary for ORT. That would not be bad at all.
Or they could really roll the dice and hope that Hakeem Butler wr falls to #37. That would be something and take steel cajones to select Butler over a good ORT prospect
1. Eli was never mobile. Not sure what makes you think he's that less mobile now.
2. Rosen not nimble. At all. People like Rosen but I'm just not one of them.
3. No matter what happens this year you won't be happy. You philosophically disagree with them trying to win and there not changing course so it is what it is
I disagree - Yes he was mobile. Watch 2011 NFC Championship game - he extended plays by being mobile in the pocket. He no longer does that. Dare I also mention the throw to Tyree? That is what I mean by mobile and he absolutely was. He was never a scrambler but he was certainly mobile. Now he just falls down at the first sign of a rush. He also can no longer be accurate or push the ball down the field with people at his feet.
Rosen has the same type of athleticism and mobility that Eli once had. He can manipulate the pocket and can be accurate with an imperfect platform. These are things that Eli could do but no longer can.
I disagree with them in that they would feel vindicated by a 9 or 10 win year wherein we get into the playoffs as a wildcard lose in the 1st or 2nd round. I would enjoy the ride but at the end of the day they are not trying to win a SB, not realistically. Not with Eli bc even if they do that...then what?
The time for half measures at the QB position is over.
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This "asshat" has no track record around here.
That said, the Remmers bit rings true.
You're not going to see me actively posting here. When Remmers contract comes in at the # I provided I'll come back for the victory lap lol.
Onetime...thanks for the info ...it is much appreciated! How solid are you on the order of ranking for those guys at #6? Q.Will definitely makes sense because he has it all. But do they not like Oliver or Sweat?
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This "asshat" has no track record around here.
That said, the Remmers bit rings true.
You're not going to see me actively posting here. When Remmers contract comes in at the # I provided I'll come back for the victory lap lol.
Eric wasn't taking a shot at you. He was confirming that you're not an old fake asshat like Slade or the numerous other trolls that tried to pass as insiders.
I'm happy they like Lock since he's my favorite, but if they don't like him enough to grab at 6 then not sure what they'll do. I can't help but feel that one of Murray, Haskins, Rosen, Lock, or Jones will be a Giant come day 1 ends.
BBI loves asshats when they are accurate.
this asshat reads like our recently retired HOF asshat just trying to stay out of the limelight.
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some creative contract restructurings.
#1 seems the most likely to me.
IMHO waiting till the 3rd or 4th round for an RT is ridiculous.
RT's slip and are often taken in later rounds.
That's what they used to say about Guards.
I think things have changed, the game has changed. RT's are just as important now as LT's, especially for a team that plans on running the ball like the Giants do with Barkley, and has to protect a relatively immobile QB like Eli.
This is the most depressing news I've heard in a while. How can you look at the defense and WR core and think that this is a contender? Yes Barkley is a dynamic superstar but he can't do it alone. Are they really going to pass on a potential franchise QB because they went 4-4 down the stretch. Those wins were against backup QB's for fucks sake. There is no pass rush, a severe lack of depth at CB and S, and the starter at one DE spot is currently Olsen Pierre. How on earth is that a playoff contender?
If we use the top two choices on D then the D will receive a wonderful and badly needed infusion of talent.
#37 could well see someone like Dillard or Risner or Gajuste or McGrary for ORT. That would not be bad at all.
Or they could really roll the dice and hope that Hakeem Butler wr falls to #37. That would be something and take steel cajones to select Butler over a good ORT prospect
If they are confident in Remmers back , it wouldn't be nearly as big a need as before. And for the opportunity to get a guy like Hakeem would be worth it.
Like JtGiants mentioned , another big move that could unfold is Sterling Shepard. I think Shep could be on borrowed time, DG has made a point of purging old regime guys or guys with 2nd contracts about to be due and just brought in Tate (who is a better version of Shep).
With that said, we would have a LOT of draft capital to move up to get guys we've targeted.
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Is lock. The problem is they won't take him at 6 and he probably won't be there at 17. They don't want to trade back up so making it work isn't easy. They want to use there picks to help them win now
I'm happy they like Lock since he's my favorite, but if they don't like him enough to grab at 6 then not sure what they'll do. I can't help but feel that one of Murray, Haskins, Rosen, Lock, or Jones will be a Giant come day 1 ends.
Also, thanks for the info jtgiants (and OP). If the Giants truly don't like Rosen or didn't like Rosen, its hars for me to understand how they could change their mind and all of the sudden like him as a guy to lead their team...so I expect the draft or next years draft to be where they get their new qb
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Not trying to run you off. I am merely pointing out that this is your first post and your bona fides has not been established.
BBI loves asshats when they are accurate.
this asshat reads like our recently retired HOF asshat just trying to stay out of the limelight.
hitdog still posts he just retired from asshattery.
This is just as pathetic as not trading for Rosen to avoid a QB controversy. If they think Lock is a franchise QB but won't take him at 6 because they are trying to squeeze one more playoff contending season out of Eli then as others have said, these guys should not be running the Giants.
When some of his info matches what jtgiants and JonC have shared then it's perfectly reasonable to have concerns.
If #2 is true, and the Giants are not going to look at a QB before round 3, then there's a very good possibility most if not all of the top rated QB's are gone by mid round 1 (Murray to AZ, the Bengals get Haskins, Denver gets Lock and Washington gets Jones).
That would leave the Giants in a lurch if there's no way the team gives Eli an extension, unless the plan is to get a placeholder in 2020. As much as I'd love to get one of the top QB's coming out next year, there are no guarantees we can move up that far, there will be a LOT of teams looking for those guys!
As far as Rosen goes, you can stop any controversy by simply telling him that the QB job is his in 2020, and telling the Team that Eli is the starter as long as the team is in the playoff race/Eli does not suffer a crippling injury.
There are good reasons for Rosen to sit out at least some of this year anyway. Letting the new offensive line settle out is one, learning Coach Shurmur's offense, and getting healthy after the beating he took in AZ.
Dont be afraid to stop back with any updates.
99% of the time this is true, and then occasionally there's the Steve Smith situation that was just like this, and was proven accurate.
Even if it means taking a lesser player? That seems counter productive.
Not a lesser player. I think you could find OL or DL of equal or greater value.
Rosen worst case - we have a hole at QB, but we freed up $15M and we can draft a QB in 2020
Actual case - we have a hole at QB at $23M
The worst case scenario with Rosen is better than what is actually going to happen.
Thanks for the info, onetime.
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Is lock. The problem is they won't take him at 6 and he probably won't be there at 17. They don't want to trade back up so making it work isn't easy. They want to use there picks to help them win now
This is just as pathetic as not trading for Rosen to avoid a QB controversy. If they think Lock is a franchise QB but won't take him at 6 because they are trying to squeeze one more playoff contending season out of Eli then as others have said, these guys should not be running the Giants.
While I feel that Gettleman and Shurmur deserve at least another year if both of them tell the front office that this team can contend this year and they finish 5-11 or 6-10 then both deserve to be replaced especially if they pass on a QB for the purpose of bringing in a player to help them win now. Of course we all know ownership will just hand the job over to Kevin Abrams because god forbid they bring in someone they are unfamiliar with.
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In comment 14365989 jtgiants said:
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Is lock. The problem is they won't take him at 6 and he probably won't be there at 17. They don't want to trade back up so making it work isn't easy. They want to use there picks to help them win now
I'm happy they like Lock since he's my favorite, but if they don't like him enough to grab at 6 then not sure what they'll do. I can't help but feel that one of Murray, Haskins, Rosen, Lock, or Jones will be a Giant come day 1 ends.
Also, thanks for the info jtgiants (and OP). If the Giants truly don't like Rosen or didn't like Rosen, its hars for me to understand how they could change their mind and all of the sudden like him as a guy to lead their team...so I expect the draft or next years draft to be where they get their new qb
They must have though enough of his skills as a football player to have extensive meetings with him last year
Thanks for the info, onetime.
I just have a feeling that Tytus Howard will be a Giant. I certainly hope so because this kid is going to be a damn good player.
They believe Tate will be a positive influence on him. They felt Odell was the opposite.
If you remember, there was a moment in the panther game where Shepard threw a garbage can over (something to that effect) They felt those outbursts were a result of odell doing it and getting away with it.
---> Simply put, if Rosen is our best option and we can get him at a good value...do it.
We can't hold the franchise back because of a potential QB controversy. Even Eli has to understand this.
If Shurmur is the guy, he needs to manage this accordingly.
This isn't right...
In comment 14365892 jtgiants said:
Now we read this.
Yikes!
1. Eli was never mobile. Not sure what makes you think he's that less mobile now.
2. Rosen not nimble. At all. People like Rosen but I'm just not one of them.
3. No matter what happens this year you won't be happy. You philosophically disagree with them trying to win and there not changing course so it is what it is
Rosen isn't mobile like the elite athletes (Wilson, Cam etc.) and he's not as athletic as the pretty mobile guys like Darnold, Garrappolo types. But he's at least as mobile as Goff, Ryan etc. I mean saying Manning "isn't mobile" doesn't suffice. Not only can't he run EVER but if he moves right or left outside the pocket his coordination fails him in terms of throwing a decent ball.
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In comment 14365981 Eric from BBI said:
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Not trying to run you off. I am merely pointing out that this is your first post and your bona fides has not been established.
BBI loves asshats when they are accurate.
this asshat reads like our recently retired HOF asshat just trying to stay out of the limelight.
hitdog still posts he just retired from asshattery.
I know that, he also seems to avoid posting about football related subjects in general probably in part bc he still gets constant requests for info.
If there was a non-attention seeking to the point of publicly retiring real deal insider, who came into some info and was looking to post while avoiding more unwanted attention, what would that person do differently than "one time asshat"? This could also be a phony asshat (always a strong possibility), but it seems least likely to me this is just some brand new insider who only wanted to share info here one time.
I like jt a lot, but the more I read his posts, the more depressed I get about the current state and future of this franchise.
I'm not saying they aren't better than last year but if they were deluded into thinking this team is a contender because of a few wins late last year versus backup QB's then we should really worry about their ability to properly evaluate the roster.
Rosen worst case - we have a hole at QB, but we freed up $15M and we can draft a QB in 2020
Actual case - we have a hole at QB at $23M
The worst case scenario with Rosen is better than what is actually going to happen.
I don’t understand your second point. There is nowhere to spend the $15M for this year at this point. We will get that cap space back next year if Eli retires or they don’t resign him. Unless I am mistaken you can’t extra carry cap space over from year to year. Correct me if I am wrong on this.
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This "asshat" has no track record around here.
That said, the Remmers bit rings true.
You're not going to see me actively posting here. When Remmers contract comes in at the # I provided I'll come back for the victory lap lol.
Sounds like we’ll be kissing the ring...
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Rosen best case - we have a quality QB at $2M/year
Rosen worst case - we have a hole at QB, but we freed up $15M and we can draft a QB in 2020
Actual case - we have a hole at QB at $23M
The worst case scenario with Rosen is better than what is actually going to happen.
I don’t understand your second point. There is nowhere to spend the $15M for this year at this point. We will get that cap space back next year if Eli retires or they don’t resign him. Unless I am mistaken you can’t extra carry cap space over from year to year. Correct me if I am wrong on this.
you are wrong, you can carry it over
And when they don't win these people that support DG and the FO will say "they weren't really trying to win anyways" and point to how they went 6-10 instead of 5-11. Then they'll get on those of us that say DG is incompetent for believing he had a winning team.
For those of that believe we are going to be bad again-- you can understand that if the FO thinks GMEN can win and we don't -- and we prove to be right -- and we blow chance to get a good QB -- we're going to be really really pissed, right?
Agree completely but I think that is the case
You're right. It's all too late now.
The Giants have passed on both Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen in the name of keeping Eli Manning.
In comment 14365986 ChicagoMarty said:
If we use the top two choices on D then the D will receive a wonderful and badly needed infusion of talent.
#37 could well see someone like Dillard or Risner or Gajuste or McGrary for ORT. That would not be bad at all.
Or they could really roll the dice and hope that Hakeem Butler wr falls to #37. That would be something and take steel cajones to select Butler over a good ORT prospect
Eli's presence at $23M doesn't make that any more likely than Rosen's at $2M. We could have gone into this season with Rosen as the starting QB AND 3-4 additional FAs to build up the roster.
You're right. It's all too late now.
The Giants have passed on both Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen in the name of keeping Eli Manning.
We can still get Rosen. Barkley was just too good to pass up last year, the guy is amazing.
This is just as pathetic as not trading for Rosen to avoid a QB controversy. If they think Lock is a franchise QB but won't take him at 6 because they are trying to squeeze one more playoff contending season out of Eli then as others have said, these guys should not be running the Giants.
I could not agree more. However, at this time of year, we never know if the rumors we hear have any basis in fact or if it's just teams feeding bull to the insiders that they want out there.
I'm hoping for Lock in the draft. I'm also hoping that after this draft, I might change my opinion of Gettleman and Mara because right now, the leadership of this organization is really beginning to concern me.
Eli is an Ironman but if he gets hurt with what we have at backup QB, this season is a flush. To me that would make getting Rosen more of a priority.
Man, I can't wait till some of these things play out.
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Not fair at all. The best case is the team surprises and eli plays well and we make the playoffs. You discounting that as a possibility is where you lose me
Eli's presence at $23M doesn't make that any more likely than Rosen's at $2M. We could have gone into this season with Rosen as the starting QB AND 3-4 additional FAs to build up the roster.
This is my opinion not information. But the giants paying 3-4 top free agents this years would have been foolish. It will be foolish if they do it next year too.
You win in this league by drafting well and filling a gaping hole in free agency every so often.
Even if they answer correctly it is still a major distraction for the team and the player. Every bad throw, every loss, everything... You have never heard QB controversy and woohoo in the same sentence. It almost always makes for losing seasons and unrest.
Ive agreed with you on the Rosen stuff from the beginning but I disagree with this.
If a Zeke Elliot or Leonard Fournette type were available last year instead of Barkley, I think that Darnold is the pick.
If the Giants go Defense at #6, they can't be going Offense with their first two picks.
Bruce Irvin got a 1 year, $4M contract. Ty Nsekhe got a 2 year, $10M deal. Eric Weddle, 2 year $10.5M.
This is the level of FA I'm talking about. There are many of them that signed this offseason for similar deals. The difference between Eli and Rosen was $15M...enough to get 3-4 of these types of FAs that could help immediately in 2019.
FA activity in 2019 - ( New Window )
I know it's not happening. It would endanger the sacred cow at QB.
In 4 drafts in Carolina, Gettleman drafted a DB in the first round zero times. And only 1 DB in the 2nd round.
I also don't think their board is going to be quite set yet.
But whatever, at the very least it's something interesting to read.
Btw I think the Brian Burns stuff is great. I tlreally think he's a player.
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In comment 14366058 jtgiants said:
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Not fair at all. The best case is the team surprises and eli plays well and we make the playoffs. You discounting that as a possibility is where you lose me
Eli's presence at $23M doesn't make that any more likely than Rosen's at $2M. We could have gone into this season with Rosen as the starting QB AND 3-4 additional FAs to build up the roster.
This is my opinion not information. But the giants paying 3-4 top free agents this years would have been foolish. It will be foolish if they do it next year too.
You win in this league by drafting well and filling a gaping hole in free agency every so often.
I agree with this. We learned the hard way spending big in FA in the recent past. It’s ok to plug a hole here or there in FA, but these spending sprees lead to an inability to resign any of your own guys when they come off their rookie deals.
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If Eli had retired after 2017 I'd bet anything we'd have drafted Darnold over Barkley. That pick was as much about keeping Eli as it was getting Barkley.
Ive agreed with you on the Rosen stuff from the beginning but I disagree with this.
If a Zeke Elliot or Leonard Fournette type were available last year instead of Barkley, I think that Darnold is the pick.
Agreed, Barkley is on another level. I am honestly still kind of surprised the Browns didn’t take him. He’s that good. And that’s not saying they made s mistake with Mayfield by any means.
It isn't about Eli. Its about the entire team, the coaches, etc. I know we like to think that these guys are all machines but they aren't. No one wants to constantly talk about, or say no comment to QB controversy questions for 16 games. No one.
I agree that it shouldn't prevent us from getting Rosen if we like him, but its absolutely a factor that will come into play every single day of the offseason and regular season. You are signing the entire organization up for that and not everyone will handle it well.
If the Giants go Defense at #6, they can't be going Offense with their first two picks.
He is saying... #3 Pick 6 is going to be a Def guy... #6 If the Giants take an offensive player in the first two rounds it will be a QB or WR.
So pick #6 is a Def guy... Pick 17 or 37 is an Offense guy it will be a QB or WR. Both can be true.
This is why I want them to take Lock at 6. They will be in very good shape heading into 2020 with a new QB with an entire year in the Giants system. It would be similar to the 2005 offseason when the Giants added Burress, Pierce, and McKenzie.
They will then have the ability to be major players in free agency and further strengthen the team in the draft. They will have the QB position solidified hopefully in this scenario.
Don't let it bother you so much. Just know that most of us appreciate all the information that you share.
Wasn't he a headcase with the Jets? Doesn't seem like he'd be a guy who'd fit their new "culture" profile.
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I think Eli is better then Rosen. It's not close. Rosen isn't a favorite of mine. Not sure what to tell you. He's not coming here as I've told you for months so it doesn't matter anyway
I think you are way off. Rosen would easily beat Eli in a remotely fair competition. It would be obvious in just an hour of observation. He throws with more accuracy, touch and anticipation
No he wouldn't
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Just a comment - Your #3 and #6 are complete Contradictions of each other.
If the Giants go Defense at #6, they can't be going Offense with their first two picks.
He is saying... #3 Pick 6 is going to be a Def guy... #6 If the Giants take an offensive player in the first two rounds it will be a QB or WR.
So pick #6 is a Def guy... Pick 17 or 37 is an Offense guy it will be a QB or WR. Both can be true.
OK, Dah!. I really misread that one.
First 2 ROUNDS, not first 2 picks.
Thanks for clearing that up.
If you ain't first, you're last.
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Wasn't he a headcase with the Jets? Doesn't seem like he'd be a guy who'd fit their new "culture" profile.
Yes he was a problem in the locker room. IIRC he was also criticized for not being the hardest worker. Great talent but this is the type of player the Giants have been getting rid of.
Why is no one banging down the cards door for him? Attitude, family, personality, he's just not that good, durability? What's the answer guys?
Why is no one banging down the cards door for him? Attitude, family, personality, he's just not that good, durability? What's the answer guys?
Make the playoffs? DG and Shurmur may hope for that but hope is not a strategy. Look the rebuild is fine, but to miss by that much screams they don't know what they are seeing. This is not a playoff team.
Why is no one banging down the cards door for him? Attitude, family, personality, he's just not that good, durability? What's the answer guys?
The answer is there's no need to bang down the door. Everyone knows the Cardinals are taking Murray; the closer to the draft we get, the more Rosen depreciates on the trade market.
What’s more shocking is that 2018 and 2019 draft classes had some really nice options at QB. And Eli Manning is still the quarterback, and if we don’t pick one this year we will have gone a full 2 seasons without a shred of evidence that this plan is a) working b) smart or c) Eli is somehow a better option than what we could have had.
To say Eli Manning is simply a better quarterback than Rosen right now is pretty ridiculous. You could argue Eli would have been worse with Arizonas OL last year.
I appreciate the info you give as well as others (and I dont doubt its accuracy as I highly doubt Rosen is a Giant) but youre being a condescending prick.
Now pay attention.
I understand they have no cap issues moving forward. All I am saying is that it is another avenue they couldve gone with $15M. They could bolster the roster this year OR they could convert salaries of vets they will cut in the future anyway.
Guys like Jenkins next year, and Ogletree/Solder in two years. It doesnt mean they HAVE to cut them, it just makes it easier and adds to an already excellent cap situation.
If that is true, then you bring in whoever you want because Eli will outplay them. Then the other guy sits. No controversy. Promising the job to someone means they think they could have someone better on the roster, but they will let Eli play anyway.
If they won't commit to bringing in competition and starting whoever wins that competition, then they are not seriously trying to win.
Why is no one banging down the cards door for him? Attitude, family, personality, he's just not that good, durability? What's the answer guys?
Yeah, I've always thought there was more to it than just "lliking Murray more". You don't just piss away a top 10 franchise QB because the unconventional, undersized guy shows up and fits your offense better.
If they do deal Rosen, the buyer isn't getting a can't miss prospect. I'm skeptical on him but I think he's worth the risk starting at a second rounder.
Eli wasn't the reason the Giants lost 11 games. The D gave up leads against the Colts, Cowboys, and Eagles - if the D had gotten stops the team would have been 8-8. Getting rid of Vernon and getting a top OG in return is fantastic.
I'd be more concerned if the asshats came on here to say that Eli is getting a huge extension for 2020.
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Very true. Its absolutely a factor. Everyone who wants Rosen never acknowledges one key point.
Why is no one banging down the cards door for him? Attitude, family, personality, he's just not that good, durability? What's the answer guys?
The answer is there's no need to bang down the door. Everyone knows the Cardinals are taking Murray; the closer to the draft we get, the more Rosen depreciates on the trade market.
Then you are risking him slipping away to another team for peanuts. Something has to be holding this up.
What’s more shocking is that 2018 and 2019 draft classes had some really nice options at QB. And Eli Manning is still the quarterback, and if we don’t pick one this year we will have gone a full 2 seasons without a shred of evidence that this plan is a) working b) smart or c) Eli is somehow a better option than what we could have had.
To say Eli Manning is simply a better quarterback than Rosen right now is pretty ridiculous. You could argue Eli would have been worse with Arizonas OL last year.
I have softened my stance on Rosen recently, but no way I would believe he is better than Eli at this stage. A lot of this game is cerebral and Rosen hasn’t been around long enough to have that part of the game down. It took Eli three years to really start looking like a franchise QB. No way Rosen makes us a better team this year.
Everyone says “oh he’ll play better with a better OL.” Yeah, no shit. As would every other QB. But the pocket isn’t going to be clean on every single play. Injuries happen. Shit happens. Trotting him out there again solves absolutely nothing. We know what’s eli is at this point in his career.
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he can handle the controversy as he handled the Pats. He never complained about his benching per se, just that he didn’t want to be pulled after starting the first half. He preferred to not start at all under that circumstance. If that’s a controversy, have at it..
It isn't about Eli. Its about the entire team, the coaches, etc. I know we like to think that these guys are all machines but they aren't. No one wants to constantly talk about, or say no comment to QB controversy questions for 16 games. No one.
I agree that it shouldn't prevent us from getting Rosen if we like him, but its absolutely a factor that will come into play every single day of the offseason and regular season. You are signing the entire organization up for that and not everyone will handle it well.
True, but this is NY/NJ media. The Giants have been used to fan and media abuse in like forever. I don’t believe they’re immune but, they’re pretty good at it, imo..
Everyone says “oh he’ll play better with a better OL.” Yeah, no shit. As would every other QB. But the pocket isn’t going to be clean on every single play. Injuries happen. Shit happens. Trotting him out there again solves absolutely nothing. We know what’s eli is at this point in his career.
Would you trade Barkley for Sam Darnold right now? I wouldn't.
Reading into whats been posted here thus far, this has nothing to do with Eli or his ferlings. Seems more like they would be worried about a controversy hanging over their heads from a fan standooint. With each bad game you'll see more and more fans calling for Rosen to start
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perfect prospect to fall into their lap at QB. Here’s the issue, they don’t exist. You have to take chances, and right now this front office would rather play it safe and be cool with 5-8 win seasons then actually do something to ignite a little fire into this team. Nothing is safer and more predictable than trotting out Eli again.
Everyone says “oh he’ll play better with a better OL.” Yeah, no shit. As would every other QB. But the pocket isn’t going to be clean on every single play. Injuries happen. Shit happens. Trotting him out there again solves absolutely nothing. We know what’s eli is at this point in his career.
Would you trade Barkley for Sam Darnold right now? I wouldn't.
No way, Barkley is like Bo Jackson and Barry Sanders collided and made a super back. Who knows how good any of the QB’s from last year will be.
Another person who doesn't get it. QB controversies isn't just about the QB. You really think Eli can't handle it... come on man. The problem is the NY Media. Every question to all the players is going to be about Eli and Rosen. It isn't the Eli that would be an issue it would affect their whole team.
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perfect prospect to fall into their lap at QB. Here’s the issue, they don’t exist. You have to take chances, and right now this front office would rather play it safe and be cool with 5-8 win seasons then actually do something to ignite a little fire into this team. Nothing is safer and more predictable than trotting out Eli again.
Everyone says “oh he’ll play better with a better OL.” Yeah, no shit. As would every other QB. But the pocket isn’t going to be clean on every single play. Injuries happen. Shit happens. Trotting him out there again solves absolutely nothing. We know what’s eli is at this point in his career.
Would you trade Barkley for Sam Darnold right now? I wouldn't.
Without thinking twice. And the Jets would laugh before hanging up the phone.
I didn't like Darnold last year in the draft as a Pac-12 guy and I like him even less this year. Could I be wrong yes sure I guess Darnold could get better, but I don't think he will ever be more than a turnover prone average QB. We know for a fact Barkley is going to be a stud every year in running and receiving the ball. Not sure how anyone could make that trade.
Physically, I agree with you. It’s the mental aspect of the game that takes time. Rosen is a guy we would pick up with an eye toward 2020 and beyond, not to win this year. And Eli has always been a statue, that’s nothing new. He just had a good line until 2012 which kept him upright so he could make plays. Honestly, Eli has no impact on Rosen being here. If the Giants want Rosen they’ll go get him. Eli has one year left on his deal.
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In comment 14366148 ryanmkeane said:
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perfect prospect to fall into their lap at QB. Here’s the issue, they don’t exist. You have to take chances, and right now this front office would rather play it safe and be cool with 5-8 win seasons then actually do something to ignite a little fire into this team. Nothing is safer and more predictable than trotting out Eli again.
Everyone says “oh he’ll play better with a better OL.” Yeah, no shit. As would every other QB. But the pocket isn’t going to be clean on every single play. Injuries happen. Shit happens. Trotting him out there again solves absolutely nothing. We know what’s eli is at this point in his career.
Would you trade Barkley for Sam Darnold right now? I wouldn't.
Without thinking twice. And the Jets would laugh before hanging up the phone.
Darnold is not good. You very over rate him.
That's a part of it, sure. But there's a good 4 or 5 teams who could be in the mix for him. The longer you wait, the less likely you are to get him. Its a game, one you can lose if you wait too long.
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Good way to identify the wrong types of players.
Even if they answer correctly it is still a major distraction for the team and the player. Every bad throw, every loss, everything... You have never heard QB controversy and woohoo in the same sentence. It almost always makes for losing seasons and unrest.
Well, they should familiar with both.
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In comment 14366148 ryanmkeane said:
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perfect prospect to fall into their lap at QB. Here’s the issue, they don’t exist. You have to take chances, and right now this front office would rather play it safe and be cool with 5-8 win seasons then actually do something to ignite a little fire into this team. Nothing is safer and more predictable than trotting out Eli again.
Everyone says “oh he’ll play better with a better OL.” Yeah, no shit. As would every other QB. But the pocket isn’t going to be clean on every single play. Injuries happen. Shit happens. Trotting him out there again solves absolutely nothing. We know what’s eli is at this point in his career.
Would you trade Barkley for Sam Darnold right now? I wouldn't.
Without thinking twice. And the Jets would laugh before hanging up the phone.
I wouldnt.
I would take Barkley and Rosen over Darnold and whoever our 2nd round pick this year would be.
Agree with this. Why would the Cards trade him a minute before they have to? They can wait for a first and hope someone gets scared and offers it. I don't think its because every team in the league has serious doubts about Rosen.
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QB controversy thing makes Eli look like such a pansy. He can't handle Rosen behind him? Too many reporters asking questions? Give me a break if true. DG and Shurmur have to treat Eli like man, he can handle it.
Another person who doesn't get it. QB controversies isn't just about the QB. You really think Eli can't handle it... come on man. The problem is the NY Media. Every question to all the players is going to be about Eli and Rosen. It isn't the Eli that would be an issue it would affect their whole team.
Dude learn to read. I said DG and Shurmur have to understand Eli can handle it. I know Eli can. And if they truly believe in Eli's play, where is the controversy? They are winning right? Eli's playing well right?
Gettleman is good with the press, I don’t see him being worried about their opinions and questions. I mean what is the controversy? Eli is 38 and in the last year of his deal. It’s not like he is 32 and has three years left on his contract. If they draft a guy or trade for Rosen, Eli knows the deal. I wouldn’t be surprised if he already told the team this is his last season.
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QB controversy thing makes Eli look like such a pansy. He can't handle Rosen behind him? Too many reporters asking questions? Give me a break if true. DG and Shurmur have to treat Eli like man, he can handle it.
Reading into whats been posted here thus far, this has nothing to do with Eli or his ferlings. Seems more like they would be worried about a controversy hanging over their heads from a fan standooint. With each bad game you'll see more and more fans calling for Rosen to start
so don't have a lot of bad games?
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In comment 14366149 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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QB controversy thing makes Eli look like such a pansy. He can't handle Rosen behind him? Too many reporters asking questions? Give me a break if true. DG and Shurmur have to treat Eli like man, he can handle it.
Another person who doesn't get it. QB controversies isn't just about the QB. You really think Eli can't handle it... come on man. The problem is the NY Media. Every question to all the players is going to be about Eli and Rosen. It isn't the Eli that would be an issue it would affect their whole team.
Dude learn to read. I said DG and Shurmur have to understand Eli can handle it. I know Eli can. And if they truly believe in Eli's play, where is the controversy? They are winning right? Eli's playing well right?
But again you focus on Eli... Eli wouldn't be the problem with a controversy. The rest of the team and the media focus and the fans would be the issue. Things like that rip teams apart. Look at Tampa Bay last year with Ryan Fitz and Winston. Look who picks in front of us this year.
Everyone says “oh he’ll play better with a better OL.” Yeah, no shit. As would every other QB. But the pocket isn’t going to be clean on every single play. Injuries happen. Shit happens. Trotting him out there again solves absolutely nothing. We know what’s eli is at this point in his career.
This is my concern as well. It's like they are waiting for an Andrew Luck type of QB to be available but if there is they better have the #1 overall pick because there will be a lot of teams trying to get that pick.
---> Simply put, if Rosen is our best option and we can get him at a good value...do it.
We can't hold the franchise back because of a potential QB controversy. Even Eli has to understand this.
If Shurmur is the guy, he needs to manage this accordingly.
This isn't right...
In comment 14365892 jtgiants said:
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All anti-Eli guys don't get. They think Eli can still play, in fairness so do I, they don't want QB controversy. Here's why? They want to win next year and think they can. Most here don't agree but the aim is to prove many wrong. Either way that's there thinking and it won't change
You hit the nail on the head. Low risk high reward move. No brainer to me.
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In comment 14366162 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14366149 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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QB controversy thing makes Eli look like such a pansy. He can't handle Rosen behind him? Too many reporters asking questions? Give me a break if true. DG and Shurmur have to treat Eli like man, he can handle it.
Another person who doesn't get it. QB controversies isn't just about the QB. You really think Eli can't handle it... come on man. The problem is the NY Media. Every question to all the players is going to be about Eli and Rosen. It isn't the Eli that would be an issue it would affect their whole team.
Dude learn to read. I said DG and Shurmur have to understand Eli can handle it. I know Eli can. And if they truly believe in Eli's play, where is the controversy? They are winning right? Eli's playing well right?
But again you focus on Eli... Eli wouldn't be the problem with a controversy. The rest of the team and the media focus and the fans would be the issue. Things like that rip teams apart. Look at Tampa Bay last year with Ryan Fitz and Winston. Look who picks in front of us this year.
Totally different situation. Fans were excited about Fitz because he was winning some games for them. Winston sucks, he’s a turnover machine that hasn’t won jack shit. He also has character issues such as touching female Uber drivers. Eli Manning is a guy who has won 2 Super Bowls, is about as high character as you can get, and is 38 years old. Everyone expects him to retire soon so it would not be unusual to have his successor waiting in the wings for a year.
As for the Eli thing, and the Giants winning now. John Mara has always been very clear. He will never abide by "tanking" or trying to lose on purpose. The Jets did this a couple of years ago when they stripped it all down and got Darnold. The Dolphins are doing it now. Now, that's not to say they won't miscalculate and put a team out there that sucks and/or implodes (2017).
Eli is Eli. He's a guy who will put up numbers that show he's at best a middle of the pack statistical QB (as I showed in the other thread). Eli can get hot and win if the team is better around him. Eli is also the same guy who will throw a dumbshit end zone pick in year 15 that you would expect to see out of a rookie. And Eli is a money player if you can get him to the playoffs or with something to play for late. 2011 was the template. But when your team is starting 0-4 or 0-5 over the past few seasons, forget it.
I like to define myself as an Eli realist. I think you can win with Eli when the team is built up around him. The Giants feel the same. But Eli is 38. The Giants are building up a roster to really make a run for it in 2020 while trying to get into the playoffs in 2019. My preference is to have his heir apparent under him in 2019 to learn and be ready to take that next step to put the Giants in position to win over the next 5 year window with a new core. And I'm fine with the Giants placing a value on Rosen. I agree, don't use a first rounder to trade for him. And I'd like to not use the 2nd. A 3rd rounder for him seems to be something the Giants should jump at if it comes to pass. But if the Giants aren't going to get him at all to avoid a QB controversy is mind numbing. This team has so many holes that I"d rather give a 3rd to the Cards for Rosen than burn a 1st or 2nd for Jones to have him sit on the bench to learn from Eli when they can fill out the roster with better talent and see that Jones is no great shakes.
As for the Eli thing, and the Giants winning now. John Mara has always been very clear. He will never abide by "tanking" or trying to lose on purpose. The Jets did this a couple of years ago when they stripped it all down and got Darnold. The Dolphins are doing it now. Now, that's not to say they won't miscalculate and put a team out there that sucks and/or implodes (2017).
Eli is Eli. He's a guy who will put up numbers that show he's at best a middle of the pack statistical QB (as I showed in the other thread). Eli can get hot and win if the team is better around him. Eli is also the same guy who will throw a dumbshit end zone pick in year 15 that you would expect to see out of a rookie. And Eli is a money player if you can get him to the playoffs or with something to play for late. 2011 was the template. But when your team is starting 0-4 or 0-5 over the past few seasons, forget it.
I like to define myself as an Eli realist. I think you can win with Eli when the team is built up around him. The Giants feel the same. But Eli is 38. The Giants are building up a roster to really make a run for it in 2020 while trying to get into the playoffs in 2019. My preference is to have his heir apparent under him in 2019 to learn and be ready to take that next step to put the Giants in position to win over the next 5 year window with a new core. And I'm fine with the Giants placing a value on Rosen. I agree, don't use a first rounder to trade for him. And I'd like to not use the 2nd. A 3rd rounder for him seems to be something the Giants should jump at if it comes to pass. But if the Giants aren't going to get him at all to avoid a QB controversy is mind numbing. This team has so many holes that I"d rather give a 3rd to the Cards for Rosen than burn a 1st or 2nd for Jones to have him sit on the bench to learn from Eli when they can fill out the roster with better talent and see that Jones is no great shakes.
Good post Matt, I agree with you.
They weathered the TC crap in 2006, Shockey before that until it became untenable, the Plax situation, the rehiring of Parcells fan angst in the ‘90s and more. This would be a day at the office for them, imo.
We can differ here of course. I just don’t think it would be an issue they couldn’t handle, not that they would look forward to it
That's more a matter of opinion than anything. if any player on this roster not named Eli Manning actively chose to sit down rather than only play a limited amount of time, fans would be furious.
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In comment 14366178 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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In comment 14366162 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14366149 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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QB controversy thing makes Eli look like such a pansy. He can't handle Rosen behind him? Too many reporters asking questions? Give me a break if true. DG and Shurmur have to treat Eli like man, he can handle it.
Another person who doesn't get it. QB controversies isn't just about the QB. You really think Eli can't handle it... come on man. The problem is the NY Media. Every question to all the players is going to be about Eli and Rosen. It isn't the Eli that would be an issue it would affect their whole team.
Dude learn to read. I said DG and Shurmur have to understand Eli can handle it. I know Eli can. And if they truly believe in Eli's play, where is the controversy? They are winning right? Eli's playing well right?
But again you focus on Eli... Eli wouldn't be the problem with a controversy. The rest of the team and the media focus and the fans would be the issue. Things like that rip teams apart. Look at Tampa Bay last year with Ryan Fitz and Winston. Look who picks in front of us this year.
Totally different situation. Fans were excited about Fitz because he was winning some games for them. Winston sucks, he’s a turnover machine that hasn’t won jack shit. He also has character issues such as touching female Uber drivers. Eli Manning is a guy who has won 2 Super Bowls, is about as high character as you can get, and is 38 years old. Everyone expects him to retire soon so it would not be unusual to have his successor waiting in the wings for a year.
Fans and Media now are trying to run him out of NY. You think adding Rosen won't turn that volume to 11?
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he can handle the controversy as he handled the Pats. He never complained about his benching per se, just that he didn’t want to be pulled after starting the first half. He preferred to not start at all under that circumstance. If that’s a controversy, have at it..
That's more a matter of opinion than anything. if any player on this roster not named Eli Manning actively chose to sit down rather than only play a limited amount of time, fans would be furious.
I would sit down too if the plan was to start Geno Smith in front of me. And if I remember correctly, Eli wasn’t pouting about it. He was actually saying it wouldn’t be fair to Geno to tell him he can only play half a game. Give him the whole game if you are going to start him.
During Free Agency, we have seen 7 or 8 backup quarterbacks switch teams.
Yet before Free Agency even started, the Giants announced that they had signed Alex Tanney to a 2 year extension (basically taking them out of the Free Agent backup quarterback market).
What does Shurmur and the Giants Front Office think of Tanney. What is his upside?
If they trade for Rosen, Eli needs to either retire or be cut. If they want to keep Eli for 2019 because they have no other option, fine. But the second they have another option he should be gone.
Fair enough.
Best case scenario - everything falls into place and Eli plays well. What do you think the realistic ceiling is for this team next year? Probably an unfair question to ask with a few free agents still to sign and hopefully 2-3 impact players in the draft but if you are willing - what is the best this team could do?
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he can handle the controversy as he handled the Pats. He never complained about his benching per se, just that he didn’t want to be pulled after starting the first half. He preferred to not start at all under that circumstance. If that’s a controversy, have at it..
That's more a matter of opinion than anything. if any player on this roster not named Eli Manning actively chose to sit down rather than only play a limited amount of time, fans would be furious.
So? It was Eli Manning, who, like LT and some others has standing and rightfully so. Nowhere was it said or implied that he would sit out of or boycott the game. He would have played if so ordered to. The proposal was made about half time removal and he preferred in its stead not to play at all if he DIDN’T HAVE TO, which the Giants were ok with. Never did he say he wouldn’t play no matter what
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In comment 14366193 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14366178 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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In comment 14366162 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14366149 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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QB controversy thing makes Eli look like such a pansy. He can't handle Rosen behind him? Too many reporters asking questions? Give me a break if true. DG and Shurmur have to treat Eli like man, he can handle it.
Another person who doesn't get it. QB controversies isn't just about the QB. You really think Eli can't handle it... come on man. The problem is the NY Media. Every question to all the players is going to be about Eli and Rosen. It isn't the Eli that would be an issue it would affect their whole team.
Dude learn to read. I said DG and Shurmur have to understand Eli can handle it. I know Eli can. And if they truly believe in Eli's play, where is the controversy? They are winning right? Eli's playing well right?
But again you focus on Eli... Eli wouldn't be the problem with a controversy. The rest of the team and the media focus and the fans would be the issue. Things like that rip teams apart. Look at Tampa Bay last year with Ryan Fitz and Winston. Look who picks in front of us this year.
Totally different situation. Fans were excited about Fitz because he was winning some games for them. Winston sucks, he’s a turnover machine that hasn’t won jack shit. He also has character issues such as touching female Uber drivers. Eli Manning is a guy who has won 2 Super Bowls, is about as high character as you can get, and is 38 years old. Everyone expects him to retire soon so it would not be unusual to have his successor waiting in the wings for a year.
Fans and Media now are trying to run him out of NY. You think adding Rosen won't turn that volume to 11?
There is a super simple way to turn that volume down, start winning some games
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In comment 14366208 eric2425ny said:
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In comment 14366193 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14366178 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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In comment 14366162 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14366149 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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QB controversy thing makes Eli look like such a pansy. He can't handle Rosen behind him? Too many reporters asking questions? Give me a break if true. DG and Shurmur have to treat Eli like man, he can handle it.
Another person who doesn't get it. QB controversies isn't just about the QB. You really think Eli can't handle it... come on man. The problem is the NY Media. Every question to all the players is going to be about Eli and Rosen. It isn't the Eli that would be an issue it would affect their whole team.
Dude learn to read. I said DG and Shurmur have to understand Eli can handle it. I know Eli can. And if they truly believe in Eli's play, where is the controversy? They are winning right? Eli's playing well right?
But again you focus on Eli... Eli wouldn't be the problem with a controversy. The rest of the team and the media focus and the fans would be the issue. Things like that rip teams apart. Look at Tampa Bay last year with Ryan Fitz and Winston. Look who picks in front of us this year.
Totally different situation. Fans were excited about Fitz because he was winning some games for them. Winston sucks, he’s a turnover machine that hasn’t won jack shit. He also has character issues such as touching female Uber drivers. Eli Manning is a guy who has won 2 Super Bowls, is about as high character as you can get, and is 38 years old. Everyone expects him to retire soon so it would not be unusual to have his successor waiting in the wings for a year.
Fans and Media now are trying to run him out of NY. You think adding Rosen won't turn that volume to 11?
There is a super simple way to turn that volume down, start winning some games
Easier said than done. Eli played well enough to win more games than we did last year and the Def was garbage.
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see Hard Knocks. Many teams don't want the added distraction, its very real. Now imagine that for a full season and then some. Its a legitimate concern.
They weathered the TC crap in 2006, Shockey before that until it became untenable, the Plax situation, the rehiring of Parcells fan angst in the ‘90s and more. This would be a day at the office for them, imo.
We can differ here of course. I just don’t think it would be an issue they couldn’t handle, not that they would look forward to it
No point of arguing this, but if you think Eli's storied career coming to a potential end every single week during the season is just a day in the office, than I think you are selling it way short. The Giants clearly don't want this to happen, so how can you say it won't bother them?
John Mara cares about what's being said about the Giants. Its a fact. The coaches had a circus going on here for the last couple years and we stunk, that's a fact. Throw in this, I'm guessing they will at the very least, be less focused than they could be without the noise. Don't know what else to say about it.
Again... It isn't Eli... It affects the rest of the team more because the Media will ask nonstop questions about it.
It is funny because I would trade for Rosen if it was a 3rd rounder and some change next year. However that doesn't mean it will affect and mess up our team this year. QB controversies are rarely a good thing.
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In comment 14366083 Big Blue '56 said:
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he can handle the controversy as he handled the Pats. He never complained about his benching per se, just that he didn’t want to be pulled after starting the first half. He preferred to not start at all under that circumstance. If that’s a controversy, have at it..
That's more a matter of opinion than anything. if any player on this roster not named Eli Manning actively chose to sit down rather than only play a limited amount of time, fans would be furious.
So? It was Eli Manning, who, like LT and some others has standing and rightfully so. Nowhere was it said or implied that he would sit out of or boycott the game. He would have played if so ordered to. The proposal was made about half time removal and he preferred in its stead not to play at all if he DIDN’T HAVE TO, which the Giants were ok with. Never did he say he wouldn’t play no matter what
They wanted him to play a half, he chose to play none. You really think the Giants wanted to have to deal with the story of him breaking his starts streak and the appearance of being benched?
Anyone who believes the Giants can contend next year needs to be fired immediately. It is going to blow up in their faces totally just like last year did. The Giants were worse than their record showed last year. And they traded their best player, have zero pass rush.
This organization is a total dumpster fire. How many more years does Eli have to be at best slightly below average before people realize he's done? He's 38. There's nothing wrong with being done at that age.
Eli is far from the only problem on this team. The rest of the roster sucks as well.
6 wins is their ceiling in 2019. I'd be surprised if they got to that number. A lot would have to go right for that to happen
I dont disagree, which is one of the reasons I am a proponent of Rosen this year. Have some cake and eat it too.
During Free Agency, we have seen 7 or 8 backup quarterbacks switch teams.
Yet before Free Agency even started, the Giants announced that they had signed Alex Tanney to a 2 year extension (basically taking them out of the Free Agent backup quarterback market).
What does Shurmur and the Giants Front Office think of Tanney. What is his upside?
Tanney's upside is that the fans won't be chanting his name when the Giants start out 0-6 and fall way behind in game #7.
The 49ers once traded for Steve Young to backup Montana for four years, but the Giants won't trade for 22 yr. old Rosen to sit behind 38 yr. old Eli because they don't want a QB controversy.
Un-f**king believable!
It's time to move on from Eli and admit what we already know, the roster sucks and they need to tear the entire thing down and rebuild.
The Giants winning anything in 2019 would be totally stunning. At best they are in the bottom 3-4 teams talent wise in the entire league.
Now, that being said, is there something to all these "rumors" about Rosen work ethic, family shit, etc...who knows. I don't know. But jt is making it sound like the guy has severe baggage that comes with him. All I know is he played every snap with the worst OL in football, didn't get hurt, and kept battling out there.
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onetimeasshat or JT Giants
During Free Agency, we have seen 7 or 8 backup quarterbacks switch teams.
Yet before Free Agency even started, the Giants announced that they had signed Alex Tanney to a 2 year extension (basically taking them out of the Free Agent backup quarterback market).
What does Shurmur and the Giants Front Office think of Tanney. What is his upside?
Tanney's upside is that the fans won't be chanting his name when the Giants start out 0-6 and fall way behind in game #7.
The 49ers once traded for Steve Young to backup Montana for four years, but the Giants won't trade for 22 yr. old Rosen to sit behind 38 yr. old Eli because they don't want a QB controversy.
Un-f**king believable!
Mara
If they win even 8 (or even 7) games they have zero shot at a top QB prospect next year. How does that work?
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In comment 14366148 ryanmkeane said:
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perfect prospect to fall into their lap at QB. Here’s the issue, they don’t exist. You have to take chances, and right now this front office would rather play it safe and be cool with 5-8 win seasons then actually do something to ignite a little fire into this team. Nothing is safer and more predictable than trotting out Eli again.
Everyone says “oh he’ll play better with a better OL.” Yeah, no shit. As would every other QB. But the pocket isn’t going to be clean on every single play. Injuries happen. Shit happens. Trotting him out there again solves absolutely nothing. We know what’s eli is at this point in his career.
Would you trade Barkley for Sam Darnold right now? I wouldn't.
Without thinking twice. And the Jets would laugh before hanging up the phone.
That conversation from the Jets end would start with Barkley and both 2019 1st round picks and the 2020 1st round pick.
Actual picks, and not Engram because he was selected in the 1st round.
Because they believe once he passes a physical that he would be like any other guy coming off of an injury. Do all injured players never come back healthy? If not, why are they cleared?
Someone will be signing Remmers.
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All anti-Eli guys don't get. They think Eli can still play, in fairness so do I, they don't want QB controversy. Here's why? They want to win next year and think they can. Most here don't agree but the aim is to prove many wrong. Either way that's there thinking and it won't change
If that is true, then you bring in whoever you want because Eli will outplay them. Then the other guy sits. No controversy. Promising the job to someone means they think they could have someone better on the roster, but they will let Eli play anyway.
If they won't commit to bringing in competition and starting whoever wins that competition, then they are not seriously trying to win.
In this scenario we're prioritizing the expensive 38 year old over the cheap 22 year old.
When it comes to Eli the front office (that very much includes ownership) has lost all grip on reality.
So, who's right? I have no idea.
However, I think some of you should stop with the rending of garments and gnashing of teeth and take a step back...take a couple of deep breaths...and just see how things play out over the next three weeks or so.
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The rest of the team and the media focus and the fans would be the issue. Things like that rip teams apart. Look at Tampa Bay last year with Ryan Fitz and Winston. Look who picks in front of us this year.
This is such horseshit when your team is in a rebuild mode. And if you are trying to win - this team needs it;s offense to click. If Eli si doing poorly then it means the team is LOSING.
If the team is LOSING in which they weren't projected to win and have a lot of young players Eli WILL SEE the handwriting on the wall and wont be a spoiled brat about it.
I would think the incompetent GM would have had a conversation with Eli last year or this year informing him that a replacement is coming soon and part of the GMen signing of Eli would have been a requirement that he MENTOR ALONG WITH an understanding what MENTOR MEANS. In part it should mean if GMen suck and the offense isn't getting it done and they lose - he gets replaced.
All these men are getting well paid to do a tough job. The fact that if they are scared of potentially some controversy if they suck in which they arent projected to win is just grossly negligent.
Envisioning the defense adding the players mentioned above would be relatively exciting. DL of Tomlinson/Hill/Shelton, LB core of Ray/White/Ogletree/Golden/Carter, and secondary of Jenkins/Williams/Beal/Bethea/Peppers. That is a significant increase in team speed, with 9 of the above 25 years old or younger. Especially if they add another edge rusher or DL at #37 like Tillery or Ferguson, though I suspect 1 of their top 3 picks will end up going to offense.
Not really a fan of signing Wilkerson at this point unless it's a really cheap incentive deal.
AND their QB play sucked.
They have 12 picks, but only 4 in first 3 rounds. Are you really expecting 8 picks from the 4th round on to contribute immediately?
Fact: Giants thought they could compete with Eli immediately last year.
Fact: They did not.
Seemingly Fact: The Giants don’t care and are going to run it back.
Fact: Collins, Vernon, and OBJ are gone.
You can’t stop stupid. The Giants are doing the same thing despite failed results last year. They don’t care. Whatever the reason, you can’t deny that the Giants are - for a second consecutive year - trying to run it back. They refuse to move on to the future.
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Because it might make things uncomfortable for Eli. Fuck sake.
Who said they like Rosen?
What an interesting take!!!
Maybe the Giants simply don't want to draft/acquire a QB for the sake of acquiring a QB.
They want the right one.
jtgiants has said repeatedly that the Giants have no interest in Rosen. Their concerns are his health/durability, and that his personality is not suited for the New York market. The price has nothing to do with it.
With regard to Rosen sitting for a year, they're not worried about any QB controversy, just that it would be waste since they firmly believe that they can still win with Eli.
as if Eli having a bad exhibition season won't cause a QB controversy with a first round QB sitting on the bench.
Which is why I hope they use a few of those Day 3 picks to move up.
They are trying to get another Eli in here. Maybe not Eli the player but Eli the man. They don't want just anyone, and maybe that's wrong from a gameday perspective, but its their right if that's the type of person they want as the face of the franchise.
I don't think a single person in the Giants FO doesn't know that they need to move on from Eli sooner rather than later. They are just trying to figure out how to do it, not shit on him while doing it (again, arguable from a fan perspective but I get it), and not fuck up on his replacement.
In sum, there's a lot more going on that many here like to admit.
You are probably correct. Most teams don't stand still.
But I'm old enough to remember the 12-round when rosters were smaller. Nothing wrong with picking 12 players. Our roster sucks.
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and the offensive line was the worst run blocking unit in the league so when there offense would put up points they couldn't protect a lead.
AND their QB play sucked.
It sucked in the first half of the season and got much better starting when Jameis came back in against us. They is more attributable to Jameis getting suspended and the bullshit that when on with that than what is being alluded to, competition at the QB position.
I'm the last guy you want evaluating QB's.
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Is lock. The problem is they won't take him at 6 and he probably won't be there at 17. They don't want to trade back up so making it work isn't easy. They want to use there picks to help them win now
This is just as pathetic as not trading for Rosen to avoid a QB controversy. If they think Lock is a franchise QB but won't take him at 6 because they are trying to squeeze one more playoff contending season out of Eli then as others have said, these guys should not be running the Giants.
my sentiments exactly...
yep...
The mass hysteria this offseason is very disturbing, and what I mean is by fans' reactions.
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In comment 14366153 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14366148 ryanmkeane said:
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perfect prospect to fall into their lap at QB. Here’s the issue, they don’t exist. You have to take chances, and right now this front office would rather play it safe and be cool with 5-8 win seasons then actually do something to ignite a little fire into this team. Nothing is safer and more predictable than trotting out Eli again.
Everyone says “oh he’ll play better with a better OL.” Yeah, no shit. As would every other QB. But the pocket isn’t going to be clean on every single play. Injuries happen. Shit happens. Trotting him out there again solves absolutely nothing. We know what’s eli is at this point in his career.
Would you trade Barkley for Sam Darnold right now? I wouldn't.
Without thinking twice. And the Jets would laugh before hanging up the phone.
That conversation from the Jets end would start with Barkley and both 2019 1st round picks and the 2020 1st round pick.
Actual picks, and not Engram because he was selected in the 1st round.
Eric: the more picks the better. But people act as if we’re going to secure 12 immediate starters. 4th founders and beyond have a low hit rate as is. That’s not suggesting we can afford to miss on them. The best thing about having more picks is that it gives us more dart throws. But even if we hit with those picks, it is highly unlikely that any of them will make an impact year 1. If we’re lucky, maybe 1 will.
This roster stinks. Almost everyone here knows it. The analytics show us we have a shit roster. Vegas thinks our roster is terrible. About the only people who think this roster is good enough to compete are select members of the front office and a few nostalgic Giants’ fans.
People think of the last two games and the Eagles game and think what if. Well, what if we didn’t play an injured DeSean Watson, a Chase Daniel, a Mark Sanchez, a Nick Mullens, and a Ryan Fitzpatrick? That’s our 5 wins right there. I don’t know how anyone can look at that and think, sure, we’re a PO team.
Everyone is free to have an opinion. But don’t criticize others when they post Tweets showing us as the laughingstock of the league.
-3 immediate starters
-2 pro bowl caliber players
-1-2 great funds in rounds 4-7
I can’t view it, nor do I think I want to.
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In comment 14366310 Zeke's Alibi said:
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and the offensive line was the worst run blocking unit in the league so when there offense would put up points they couldn't protect a lead.
AND their QB play sucked.
It sucked in the first half of the season and got much better starting when Jameis came back in against us. They is more attributable to Jameis getting suspended and the bullshit that when on with that than what is being alluded to, competition at the QB position.
Yeah and then they went back to Ryan Fitz after Jameis wasn't sucking and the players wanted Fitz. Then they went back to Jameis when Fitz sucked also. It was a mess.
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I don’t think so. Both have said they are concerned about Rosen out of fear for him sitting a year and that next year Eli starts no matter what.
jtgiants has said repeatedly that the Giants have no interest in Rosen. Their concerns are his health/durability, and that his personality is not suited for the New York market. The price has nothing to do with it.
With regard to Rosen sitting for a year, they're not worried about any QB controversy, just that it would be waste since they firmly believe that they can still win with Eli.
Are you quoting jtgiants or si your commentabout controversy something oyu made up yourslef?
Here si what jtgiants said on his 1st post on thi thread --
"They think Eli can still play, in fairness so do I, they don't want QB controversy. Here's why? They want to win next year and think they can."
---------
I respect jtgiants but imo he has said some stuff on this thread makes me shake my head. He doesn;t thinkEli is any less mobile now than when he 1st started. He thinks the ceiling for this upcomign team is 10 wins. ANd as for Rosen what I read lats year I liked him a lot. JTGIANTS doesn't.
he could be right on all. But as of right now I think he is wrong on Eli mobility. On a ceiling of 10 wins though that can never be proven unless they win 9 or 10. ANd I think he sells Rosen short. Not saying Rosen will be a superstar but jtgiants doesn't like him much at all.
Zero chance. They’re at best a distant 3rd team in the division.
He always had that hitch. I remember last year watching countless videos of him throwing. Maybe it's more obvious now.
Have the Giants figured out what branch of medicine Rosen's father specializes in yet? Or do they still think he's a neurologist?
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I don't think they love Rosen at all but anything is possible based on value. I've been consistent on what I post particularly regarding Rosen
Have the Giants figured out what branch of medicine Rosen's father specializes in yet? Or do they still think he's a neurologist?
I thought it was proctologist?
1. Eli was never mobile. Not sure what makes you think he's that less mobile now.
2. Rosen not nimble. At all. People like Rosen but I'm just not one of them.
3. No matter what happens this year you won't be happy. You philosophically disagree with them trying to win and there not changing course so it is what it is
A couple of things.
1. 38 year old humans get less mobile. Not sure what makes you think Eli is immune to the hands of time.
2. Rosen was a nationally ranked tennis player as a kid. He's much more agile than you seem to realize.
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All anti-Eli guys don't get. They think Eli can still play, in fairness so do I, they don't want QB controversy. Here's why? They want to win next year and think they can. Most here don't agree but the aim is to prove many wrong. Either way that's there thinking and it won't change
Anyone who believes the Giants can contend next year needs to be fired immediately. It is going to blow up in their faces totally just like last year did. The Giants were worse than their record showed last year. And they traded their best player, have zero pass rush.
This organization is a total dumpster fire. How many more years does Eli have to be at best slightly below average before people realize he's done? He's 38. There's nothing wrong with being done at that age.
Eli is far from the only problem on this team. The rest of the roster sucks as well.
6 wins is their ceiling in 2019. I'd be surprised if they got to that number. A lot would have to go right for that to happen
Sorry, but what? The 2018 Giants were much better in being competitive than any team in the past six years and the 2016 club. They had how many single digit losses and they could/should have easily had won in the 2nd PHI, DAL games, the Colts game, and the Panthers game. The defense didn't make plays when it mattered. That's with shuffling around a brand stinkin new scheme, new players and trades.
And I can't agree with the "best player on the team" bit. Barkley is definitely better right now, for starters.
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In comment 14365914 jtgiants said:
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I don't think they love Rosen at all but anything is possible based on value. I've been consistent on what I post particularly regarding Rosen
Have the Giants figured out what branch of medicine Rosen's father specializes in yet? Or do they still think he's a neurologist?
I thought it was proctologist?
He’s a marine biologist.
You thought they were close last year too, and they won 5 games. Maybe you're a little too optimistic?
jtgiants : 3/27/2019 7:49 am : link : reply
1. The Giants are wary of to send personality in ny.
2. Rosen wouldn't play if he came this year presenting 2 problems.
A. You would burn the second year of his rookie contract without being an l e to evaluate him.
B. He WONT be happy without playing.
3. Giants have real concerns about his ability to stay healthy. His dad is a top neurosurgeon and isn't keen on his son playing football longterm when he's always nicked up.
4. I checked last night and was told unlikely this happens but as always things are fluid
And
jtgiants : 3/27/2019 8:15 am : link : reply
All due respect those are all great reasons for not getting him. He never was healthy in college, had many teams concerned with his slight frame, and his family is a big concern to those in the know. Also it's bad business to get a qb and burn a second year of a rookie deal. I really think your off on this and he wouldn't play this year. That's the reality weather you like it or not.
And
jtgiants : 3/27/2019 10:54 am : link : reply
You are either uninformed or haven't done the research. His family and and his personality and durability are all legit concerns in nfl circles. That's not my opinion its fact.
The point - besides the one on top of your head - is that the new asshat said that the Giants were interested in Rosen, but only if the price was right (the two 3rd round picks). jtgiants has said repeatedly that the Giants aren't interested in him at any price for the reasons he gave.
THis is the problem with the "I'm ok with not taking a QB this year because we are going to suck anyway, BUT next year we'll draft our QB" theory. The last slam-dunk, no-doubt-about-it, #1, franchise type QB by all accounts was Luck in 2012. They don't come around very often.
Plus, if they there is one - you've got to be in position to get him. That means you've got to be the ultimate suck the year before or have the draft capital to move up and get him.
It becomes the never ending QB hunt for Eli's successor.
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I don’t think so. Both have said they are concerned about Rosen out of fear for him sitting a year and that next year Eli starts no matter what.
jtgiants has said repeatedly that the Giants have no interest in Rosen. Their concerns are his health/durability, and that his personality is not suited for the New York market. The price has nothing to do with it.
With regard to Rosen sitting for a year, they're not worried about any QB controversy, just that it would be waste since they firmly believe that they can still win with Eli.
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If a late 3rd and a conditional 3rd is all they are offering for Rosen there would have to be someone who will offer more than that
but what do I know.
NE With multiple day two picks will likely be the team to acquire him IMO. It will be entertaining to see those who didn't want Rosen on the Giants flip and criticize the Giants for not trading for Rosen because Belichick did.
+1
I'm OK with signing Remmers, as long as the numbers are good. Then use #95 and a day three pick on the line. I like Bobby Evans.
As others have said, not trading for Rosen because it would create a controversy is just silly. But the proof that the Giants don't really like Rosen and won't therefore trade for him is that they are only will to trade #95 and a conditional three next year instead of #37. If they thought he was their next franchise QB they would trade #37 right now.
Management has probably overrated how much Eli has left based on the last few games of season. Eli's arm is still very good, but he is completely immobile, and is clearly shell shocked from all the beatings he's taken behind subpar OL. He pretty much needs a perfect environment in which to thrive. His ability to extend plays when the pocket collapses is gone.
Burns at #6 is a massive overreach. He's likely to be available at #17. I also don't want White or Gary at #6, or Williams at #17.
"We like Fromm a lot but he's only 6'2 and we have a requirement where our QB's must be at least 6'3."
2-- I provided you a quote in which he said it. WHy swear at me and get your panties all riled up? You misquoted him. Big deal. Get over it. There's many posts - you just missed that one.
He said the GMEn would be concerned that there may be a controversy-- or implied it-- didn't he?
I'm OK with signing Remmers, as long as the numbers are good. Then use #95 and a day three pick on the line. I like Bobby Evans.
As others have said, not trading for Rosen because it would create a controversy is just silly. But the proof that the Giants don't really like Rosen and won't therefore trade for him is that they are only will to trade #95 and a conditional three next year instead of #37. If they thought he was their next franchise QB they would trade #37 right now.
Management has probably overrated how much Eli has left based on the last few games of season. Eli's arm is still very good, but he is completely immobile, and is clearly shell shocked from all the beatings he's taken behind subpar OL. He pretty much needs a perfect environment in which to thrive. His ability to extend plays when the pocket collapses is gone.
Burns at #6 is a massive overreach. He's likely to be available at #17. I also don't want White or Gary at #6, or Williams at #17.
+1
silly. Why play football at all then?
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as a Physician Assistant and treating Post Concussion Syndrome, I get the concern. I have already made it clear to my son that he is not to play high school football. Everyone is different though, I have can't 100% his father will tell him to quit. On top of that, Rosen comes from a wealthy family and money would not be a major motivating factor. I get why the Giants would not burn a 1st or 2nd rounder on him. It's risk management. You have to ask why he went lower than expected last year in the draft, given the talent he is.
silly. Why play football at all then?
Silly? Take one more hit and see if it is silly. I deal with these folks every day. How would you like to feel photophobia, lack of concentration and focus, chronic headaches, depression, and convergence insufficiency (can't track well with eyes, causing you to see double and experiencing vertigo) on a daily basis? He and the team that invest in him are taking a risk. No one knows, if his father has influence in his decision to stop playing, but his influence maybe present if the opportunity presents.
I actually find it refreshing how all over the place it is (and like you hopeful), and also hilarious how many dummies just keep bashing the FO over stupid speculation... lol. It really is comical how many fans think they know exactly what's going on and that they somehow know more what is the "correct plan". LOL
A little surprised that Sweat is not in the mix at 6. Freakish athlete who looks like he could have a big upside.
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In comment 14366314 Dnew15 said:
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In comment 14366310 Zeke's Alibi said:
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and the offensive line was the worst run blocking unit in the league so when there offense would put up points they couldn't protect a lead.
AND their QB play sucked.
It sucked in the first half of the season and got much better starting when Jameis came back in against us. They is more attributable to Jameis getting suspended and the bullshit that when on with that than what is being alluded to, competition at the QB position.
Yeah and then they went back to Ryan Fitz after Jameis wasn't sucking and the players wanted Fitz. Then they went back to Jameis when Fitz sucked also. It was a mess.
Jameis wasn't sucking? He was terrible when he came back from suspension and Fitz was playing decent so they went back with him. I don't know if you are misremembering or intentionally making it up. I'm very familiar with the Bucs I live in the market.
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In comment 14366534 DonnieD89 said:
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as a Physician Assistant and treating Post Concussion Syndrome, I get the concern. I have already made it clear to my son that he is not to play high school football. Everyone is different though, I have can't 100% his father will tell him to quit. On top of that, Rosen comes from a wealthy family and money would not be a major motivating factor. I get why the Giants would not burn a 1st or 2nd rounder on him. It's risk management. You have to ask why he went lower than expected last year in the draft, given the talent he is.
silly. Why play football at all then?
Silly? Take one more hit and see if it is silly. I deal with these folks every day. How would you like to feel photophobia, lack of concentration and focus, chronic headaches, depression, and convergence insufficiency (can't track well with eyes, causing you to see double and experiencing vertigo) on a daily basis? He and the team that invest in him are taking a risk. No one knows, if his father has influence in his decision to stop playing, but his influence maybe present if the opportunity presents.
wow-- talk about avoiding the question?
WHy bother to play if he has your concerns?
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In comment 14366544 giantstock said:
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In comment 14366534 DonnieD89 said:
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as a Physician Assistant and treating Post Concussion Syndrome, I get the concern. I have already made it clear to my son that he is not to play high school football. Everyone is different though, I have can't 100% his father will tell him to quit. On top of that, Rosen comes from a wealthy family and money would not be a major motivating factor. I get why the Giants would not burn a 1st or 2nd rounder on him. It's risk management. You have to ask why he went lower than expected last year in the draft, given the talent he is.
silly. Why play football at all then?
Silly? Take one more hit and see if it is silly. I deal with these folks every day. How would you like to feel photophobia, lack of concentration and focus, chronic headaches, depression, and convergence insufficiency (can't track well with eyes, causing you to see double and experiencing vertigo) on a daily basis? He and the team that invest in him are taking a risk. No one knows, if his father has influence in his decision to stop playing, but his influence maybe present if the opportunity presents.
wow-- talk about avoiding the question?
WHy bother to play if he has your concerns?
“I think it was a mix of both. He’s definitely talented and, from a quarterbacking standpoint, he can do everything you need him to. He was hindered by the lack of weapons around him, the lack of protection he had. But when he started to get hit, you’d question his overall toughness. He started to look at the rush, you could tell he didn’t want to be hit anymore. ... You definitely saw the good, in why they drafted him. No one questions the physical ability. It’s the mental part of it. He processes and learns it well, but people keep questioning toughness and leadership.”
Article - Ten Takeaways #8 - ( New Window )
If the Giants make any decisions that compromises the future for the short term belief that they can win now, that almost makes me resent Eli, and that has not happened up to now.
Three possibilities I me arned of today, here and on the radio.
1. Giants main concern with Rosen is that there could be a quarterback
Controversy
2. They like Lock but won’t consider moving up from 17 to get him if they
Go defense at 6, because the lost draft capital compromises a win
Now philosophy
3. Most likely quarterback scenerio is Jones at 17 because it eliminates
A lot of pressure of having a quarterback controversy, and also Eli
would be very comfortable with him. (Radio)
If there is a smidgen of truth in any of these, well that would stink
If the Giants make any decisions that compromises the future for the short term belief that they can win now, that almost makes me resent Eli, and that has not happened up to now.
Yeah, the org is not doing Eli's legacy any favors here.
But maybe it will all work out....who knows
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place: Haskins, Jones, now Lock. I'm hoping that other teams don't know what we want to do. It would be nice, for a change, if a team doesn't trade up in front of us for our target player.
I actually find it refreshing how all over the place it is (and like you hopeful), and also hilarious how many dummies just keep bashing the FO over stupid speculation... lol. It really is comical how many fans think they know exactly what's going on and that they somehow know more what is the "correct plan". LOL
Its fascinating because the Giants are going against the grain and trying to win by building around a tremendous RB.
A RB can have limited time or go on for 10 years. Are we destined to have a Barry Sanders that wins nothing? Or maybe we can be more like the Emmit SMith Cowboys?
DO you look ot build a prolific OLINE and see what SB can do with that? Or build a supreme defense and try to win lower scoring games?
If you get a "very good" your offense will always be dangerous. But if you get a mediocre or worse QB then it might be just as exciting if you build a supreme defense.
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Stupid. When his father had an actual say in what his son did, he was unable to stop him from playing football. Now that his is a professional and no longer needs the family money forget about his father's ability to control anything his son does.
Huh???????????? What does this have to do with my question? Or are you replying to the other guy?
The point - besides the one on top of your head - is that the new asshat said that the Giants were interested in Rosen, but only if the price was right (the two 3rd round picks). jtgiants has said repeatedly that the Giants aren't interested in him at any price for the reasons he gave.
In general I tend to take everything with a grain of salt even when I trust the source. And especially on April 1.
if our owners and GM and HC won't bring in a good young QB because they are afraid of controversy then this franchise is doomed due to inept management
Fans are already booing Eli because an unpicked QB isn't getting game time experience, and the season hasn't started yet.
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In comment 14365989 jtgiants said:
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Is lock. The problem is they won't take him at 6 and he probably won't be there at 17. They don't want to trade back up so making it work isn't easy. They want to use there picks to help them win now
This is just as pathetic as not trading for Rosen to avoid a QB controversy. If they think Lock is a franchise QB but won't take him at 6 because they are trying to squeeze one more playoff contending season out of Eli then as others have said, these guys should not be running the Giants.
my sentiments exactly...
what has anybody seen from Eli in the last few years that would indicate he can lead the team back to the playoffs, Eli has shot his wad, its over, move on..
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In comment 14366009 NYG07 said:
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In comment 14365989 jtgiants said:
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Is lock. The problem is they won't take him at 6 and he probably won't be there at 17. They don't want to trade back up so making it work isn't easy. They want to use there picks to help them win now
This is just as pathetic as not trading for Rosen to avoid a QB controversy. If they think Lock is a franchise QB but won't take him at 6 because they are trying to squeeze one more playoff contending season out of Eli then as others have said, these guys should not be running the Giants.
my sentiments exactly...
what has anybody seen from Eli in the last few years that would indicate he can lead the team back to the playoffs, Eli has shot his wad, its over, move on..
when he, like, played pretty darn well in the playoffs?
The Mara's are so out of touch with the fan pulse that they think the McAdoo decision had to do with our undying love for Eli Manning. Wrong. It had to due with Geno Smith starting over Webb. Simple.
I'm tired of being held hostage!!!! Let's move the fuck on.
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In comment 14366356 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 14366009 NYG07 said:
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In comment 14365989 jtgiants said:
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Is lock. The problem is they won't take him at 6 and he probably won't be there at 17. They don't want to trade back up so making it work isn't easy. They want to use there picks to help them win now
This is just as pathetic as not trading for Rosen to avoid a QB controversy. If they think Lock is a franchise QB but won't take him at 6 because they are trying to squeeze one more playoff contending season out of Eli then as others have said, these guys should not be running the Giants.
my sentiments exactly...
what has anybody seen from Eli in the last few years that would indicate he can lead the team back to the playoffs, Eli has shot his wad, its over, move on..
when he, like, played pretty darn well in the playoffs?
That was two years ago, and that team consisted of Eli leading a bottom 5 offense in football and being dragged to the playoffs by a great defense.
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In comment 14366544 giantstock said:
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In comment 14366534 DonnieD89 said:
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as a Physician Assistant and treating Post Concussion Syndrome, I get the concern. I have already made it clear to my son that he is not to play high school football. Everyone is different though, I have can't 100% his father will tell him to quit. On top of that, Rosen comes from a wealthy family and money would not be a major motivating factor. I get why the Giants would not burn a 1st or 2nd rounder on him. It's risk management. You have to ask why he went lower than expected last year in the draft, given the talent he is.
silly. Why play football at all then?
Silly? Take one more hit and see if it is silly. I deal with these folks every day. How would you like to feel photophobia, lack of concentration and focus, chronic headaches, depression, and convergence insufficiency (can't track well with eyes, causing you to see double and experiencing vertigo) on a daily basis? He and the team that invest in him are taking a risk. No one knows, if his father has influence in his decision to stop playing, but his influence maybe present if the opportunity presents.
wow-- talk about avoiding the question?
WHy bother to play if he has your concerns?
I did answer the question. We don’t know what his fathers decision is whether to influence him or not; however, he is a big boy and is able to make his own decisions. You can’t dispute the fact and what the consequences maybe in the future. The Giants are not stupid and why invest in somebody who is a risk. It doesn’t matter what Rosen thinks if he chooses to play football. He is taking a risk. If he has another concussion, he may not be allowed to be back on the field for quite some time. The facts based on studies on concussions are out there. If he takes another hit, you do not know what’s going to happen? Hence, there comes a possible decision by the father after he suffers the symptoms which may be prolong after another hit. Mines do change after such incident. What part of my statement do you not understand? If you choose to ignore science-based evidence with concussions, then you might as well believe that the world is flat. Rosen is taking a chance being on the field with the possibility of another concussion. That’s his decision to take the risk. The Giants would be making a low risk decision if they only want to invest a third rounder. What is so silly about guarding against risk? It’s stupid to put out and burn the 1st to 2nd rounder given these risks.
And that will be 2 1/2 years in the past when he next takes the field.
Eli is an albatross around this franchise's neck at this point.
way of making football decisions?
But they are afraid of giving a 38 year old QB real
competition? Sounds great
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The point - besides the one on top of your head - is that the new asshat said that the Giants were interested in Rosen, but only if the price was right (the two 3rd round picks). jtgiants has said repeatedly that the Giants aren't interested in him at any price for the reasons he gave.
Agree on this point. You just have to remember with these things, many people discussing something with varying exchanges lends itself to interpretation. Things are not always explicit black/white and there is often more than one opinion within organization. A year ago word was there was no clear consensus about QBs. But this point about Eli starting as it relates to Rosen was referenced by both.
In general I tend to take everything with a grain of salt even when I trust the source. And especially on April 1.
The most important part there is that opinions will differ, even within the FO of an organization. At the end of the day there's only 1 person who is the ultimate decision maker. That's the reason why I appreciate the inside information, but also take it for what its worth.
way of making football decisions?
But they are afraid of giving a 38 year old QB real
competition? Sounds great
See Dawg’s Monday reading thread. He absolutely said so as early as 2000.
Last spring I said plenty of times I’d rather go 6-10 (or worse) with a rookie QB than doing so with Eli. I was a huge “pro QB” in the draft guy last year. We went 5-11 with Eli and no successor on the roster. It was a total waste of time. Unless they actually really like and select a QB among the dreck that is this QB crop, we’re probably looking at a similar experience in 2019. Another waste of time.
As far as GM's being stupid or not -- sure overall they can't be completely stupid but they are capable of making stupid decisions, right? Reese didn't address the OLINE and his draft picks over time didn;t pan out. He got fired. SO he made some "stupid decisions," right? Any GM can make stupid decisions, right? SO can DG.
SO in this case because they might pass on Rosen doesn't mean it exonerates them from making being capable of making stupid decisions.
I'd like to think I'm in Matt in SGS's "Eli realist" category, so from that POV I'd like to see them draft a fresh option in the first round and let that player start the year behind Eli and re-evaluate as they go through the season. All 4 seem more mobile than Rosen, which I view as the biggest negative against him, they also all have an extra year of control, and they all seem to have the right mentality. I like all of them over Herbert next year, in a similar general tier to Fromm, and behind Tua who will likely be out of reach anyway. Depending on how the draft board looks I'd most likely want to use the #6 pick on a blue chip defender and then package the #17 if necessary to move for the QB. Though, if 4 QB's go ahead of them in the top 16 there may be a 2nd blue chip player available and perhaps that changes the calculus re: Rosen if the price is reasonable.
Though I also think it's likely the Cards end up getting a first round pick from either the Pats or Chargers if their preferred targets from the draft don't reach them - and also probably what they're hoping for in holding him.
Rosen has a giant chip on his shoulder after he was the 4th QB taken. Can't believe all this talk about being replaced after one year is going to make that any better. He's definitely out to prove he can play. The question is can he?
Interesting stuff.....
Interesting stuff.....
Yup and that would mean less pressure to take a RT at #17.
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Love the Remmers info.....i wanted an experience RT....did not want to live through growing pains of a rookie to get up to speed with the NFL game.
Interesting stuff.....
Yup and that would mean less pressure to take a RT at #17.
Yes and free us to focus on starters for the D
There's no such thing as a "retirement deal".
Because the rational logical take does not fit into the agenda of the Anti-Eli crowd.
"Eli is to blame no matter what" and it's mind boggling to say the least
You're an idiot. IMO.
If Mara and Tisch cannot deal with personality, they should sell the team. Heck, they would probably have a problem with Aaron Rodgers! He has "personality."
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Appreciate the info. I stand by my stance rosen won't be a giant. You are right though. The Giants are playing Eli as long as there in a playoff race. If rosen comes he sits. That would create a controversy they don't want. That said they aren't in love with him and also are wary of his personality would fit in NY. Despite people pushing back on this it is a HUGE issue
If Mara and Tisch cannot deal with personality, they should sell the team. Heck, they would probably have a problem with Aaron Rodgers! He has "personality."
They do! not sure about Tisch, but it's my contention that the Mara's live on the deck of the Titanic! Both figuratively & literally... Rich mans game... yeah, I am jealous of the fantasy life.. but pissed that its no matter but a bruised ego... and not much else.
Which means they know the players will be able to tell that Rosen is better.
I did answer the question. We don’t know what his fathers decision is whether to influence him or not; however, he is a big boy and is able to make his own decisions. You can’t dispute the fact and what the consequences maybe in the future. The Giants are not stupid and why invest in somebody who is a risk. It doesn’t matter what Rosen thinks if he chooses to play football. He is taking a risk. If he has another concussion, he may not be allowed to be back on the field for quite some time. The facts based on studies on concussions are out there. If he takes another hit, you do not know what’s going to happen? Hence, there comes a possible decision by the father after he suffers the symptoms which may be prolong after another hit. Mines do change after such incident. What part of my statement do you not understand? If you choose to ignore science-based evidence with concussions, then you might as well believe that the world is flat. Rosen is taking a chance being on the field with the possibility of another concussion. That’s his decision to take the risk. The Giants would be making a low risk decision if they only want to invest a third rounder. What is so silly about guarding against risk? It’s stupid to put out and burn the 1st to 2nd rounder given these risks.
Well, then being in the field you know there are varying degrees of concussions. Players routinely get pulled from a game on Sunday and are cleared by Thursday or the following week. Or you can have a beauty like Clint Frazier of the Yankees had where it took 6 months just for symptoms to go away after what seemed mild contact with a chain link fence.
While you are right that the next one might be the end of his career(it is the same for any player) and those who have had concussions are more likely to have another, he may never get another one. But I do agree it is part of the process of evaluating whether he should be the future QB of the Giants. I also wonder what percentage of players have had a concussion and played through without it being detected? I'd bet over 80% had had them.
The Giants offense may be more than a "dink and dunk" if the OL is above average.
As for the draft, best player available regardless of position.
If our first 3 picks are all NFL starters and flourishing at some point of 2019 I'd be ecstatic!
The Giants offense may be more than a "dink and dunk" if the OL is above average.
As for the draft, best player available regardless of position.
If our first 3 picks are all NFL starters and flourishing at some point of 2019 I'd be ecstatic!
Exactly. Big guys with bad backs don't get better. While we all want RT to be addressed, to rely on players signed from the ambulatory squad is too much of a gamble. Many were eager to sign Daryl Williams who spent last season with on IR with a knee only to learn that he obviously wasn't fully recovered as he had to settle for a 1yr deal with Carolina.
Enough with the stopgaps. Get the OL fixed with a young, capable RT in the draft.
First of all - he shares what he believes is the case on this thread yesterday - that Rosen will not be a NYG.
Then, today he posts that although many fans may not like it (including admittedly himself), the discussions about trading for Rosen are continuing and real.
Together it seems clear that he's reporting not what he WANTS to be true, but what he's hearing and believes to be true.
Just want to make that clear in case Rosen does end up here and someone tries to make a case that jtgiants was wrong and therefore not legit. If anything these two things taken together show the opposite.
First of all - he shares what he believes is the case on this thread yesterday - that Rosen will not be a NYG.
Then, today he posts that although many fans may not like it (including admittedly himself), the discussions about trading for Rosen are continuing and real.
Together it seems clear that he's reporting not what he WANTS to be true, but what he's hearing and believes to be true.
Just want to make that clear in case Rosen does end up here and someone tries to make a case that jtgiants was wrong and therefore not legit. If anything these two things taken together show the opposite.
I may have read that wrong, but I took JT's comment about the trade to be him saying that the Giants were definitively not trading for Rosen but the other trade JT has been hinting at for a few weeks is still a real possibility. It's entirely possible that I misinterpreted that though.
Poor widdle ewi
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combined with jtgiants tidbits thread should help prove that he's a legit insider.
First of all - he shares what he believes is the case on this thread yesterday - that Rosen will not be a NYG.
Then, today he posts that although many fans may not like it (including admittedly himself), the discussions about trading for Rosen are continuing and real.
Together it seems clear that he's reporting not what he WANTS to be true, but what he's hearing and believes to be true.
Just want to make that clear in case Rosen does end up here and someone tries to make a case that jtgiants was wrong and therefore not legit. If anything these two things taken together show the opposite.
I may have read that wrong, but I took JT's comment about the trade to be him saying that the Giants were definitively not trading for Rosen but the other trade JT has been hinting at for a few weeks is still a real possibility. It's entirely possible that I misinterpreted that though.
jtgiants and JonC are both pretty certain Rosen is not in the cards.
I think it is the wrong not go after Rosen, but I don't make millions evaluating NFL QBs.
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I may have read that wrong, but I took JT's comment about the trade to be him saying that the Giants were definitively not trading for Rosen but the other trade JT has been hinting at for a few weeks is still a real possibility. It's entirely possible that I misinterpreted that though.
I retract what I said - I actually was the one who misread what was stated. I believe I understood him correctly the first time I read it, but when I was going back through the OP on his thread re-read it and misunderstood his position.
You are correct - thanks for pointing that out.
Too many holes on defense and even with drafted players on defense they will still be rookies. Playoffs are stretch.
The Giants offense may be more than a "dink and dunk" if the OL is above average.
As for the draft, best player available regardless of position.
If our first 3 picks are all NFL starters and flourishing at some point of 2019 I'd be ecstatic!
Yes I'm OK with short get up our D and a big physical receiver for SB and Eli, and hope the chips fall where they may on the oline, hopefully Wan find gems like Diehl, Ohara and McKenzie again, and I'm hopeful our current FO can.
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And when we finish sub .500 again next year, what’s the plan?
Then the blame will be shifted to the Giants depleted receiving corps.
Giants have never really struggled offensively due to problems with the wr corps. It’s always been the OL and defense that have done the giants in since 2012. Literally, always.
When that “excuse” runs out talk to me. Until then, the Eli detractors who insist Eli hasn’t been sabotaged by the shittiest OL and defense since 2013 do not have a leg to stand on other than going with the lazy media driven Eli narrative.
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In comment 14366433 The_Boss said:
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And when we finish sub .500 again next year, what’s the plan?
Then the blame will be shifted to the Giants depleted receiving corps.
Giants have never really struggled offensively due to problems with the wr corps. It’s always been the OL and defense that have done the giants in since 2012. Literally, always.
When that “excuse” runs out talk to me. Until then, the Eli detractors who insist Eli hasn’t been sabotaged by the shittiest OL and defense since 2013 do not have a leg to stand on other than going with the lazy media driven Eli narrative.
I don't think a single person has suggested that Eli hasn't been saddled with an awful OL and a porous defense throughout most of the second half of his career. Creating a strawman doesn't do you any favors here - everyone knows the hand Eli has been dealt.
That does not, however, make Eli any younger. It does not erase the years of abuse he has taken behind those abysmal offensive lines. It does not eliminate the concerns that he may now be conditioned to be in survival mode rather than that tough SOB who withstood incredible duress against San Francisco on the way to SB XLVI. It's not inconceivable that while the Giants pissed away years of Eli's career, he himself also began to decline physically. Those are not mutually exclusive concepts.
It's not a lazy media-driven narrative any more than your POV is a lazy Giants-can-do-no-wrong perspective. There are several posters on this board who know quite a bit about football and don't need the media to feed them an opinion - those posters, from what I can tell, land all over the spectrum as it relates to Eli. None of them are getting their opinions from the media, IMO.
You can tell yourself that the questions surrounding Eli and this franchise are simply a figment of the media's imagination, and if that makes you feel better, go for it. But you don't get to accuse others of being lazy and/or allowing the media to think for them. Not when your own posts are of a one-note variety and can't even summon the energy to consider the validity of a countering viewpoint. You want to talk about lazy? There's nothing lazier than locking yourself into your own opinion and dismissing all others solely on the basis of wanting so badly to believe in one and only one possibility.
Think Rosen will be injured and retired before his next contract ( probably concussed is my guess). Hope not, and hope he wins many SBs before then .
IMO Jones clearly far and away a better prospect than the Davis Webb/Kyle Lauletta's of the world - and I suspect multiple teams beyond the Giants would agree with that and take him if they have the chance in the top 20. I think it's easy to see some things that are better about his resume than certain guys above and some things he's not as good at.
The list of first round QB's above play many different styles and have had a wide range results. Some looked like busts and now look like steals. Some looked like steals day 1 and will eventually regress to busts. The 2 most important ingredients in a QB are the mental side and the system fit - if Shurmur in particular feels Jones is his guy terrific.