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4) Giants pass on a first-round QB, then have all night to discuss trading their second-round pick for Rosen This may end up being the most likely scenario. There are a lot of people who think the Giants will pass on the quarterbacks in this draft regardless. They'll go defense at 6, and then maybe offensive line or receiver at 17, if not another defender. They can still discuss trading the most valuable draft asset they seem willing to give up - the 37th overall pick - for a player who went 10th the previous year. Of course, if they can't strike a deal, they will have punted their quarterback decision into 2020. |
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This is where I have the question. Did they NOT want him AT ALL last year.. or did they just value Barkley so much higher that they went with their value board?
You rarely get a second bite of the apple, so to speak, and last year Barkley might've just been too good to pass up. Who knows?
If, as it was reported, the brass couldn't reach a consensus on a QB last year, I'd love to know who among them favored Rosen and who didn't.
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If they didn't want him a year ago, it would be a significant reversal to ignore their evaluations on him AND trade a premium draft pick, to boot.
This is where I have the question. Did they NOT want him AT ALL last year.. or did they just value Barkley so much higher that they went with their value board?
The word was they didn't love Rosen last year, haven't heard anything different this year. The only QB they considered was Darnold, is what I was told.
I agree 100%. on the surface it makes a ton of sense. The draw back is if the Giants don't feel he is a fit no matter what the circumstances are.
There has to be a price what they are willing to take a chance on him, but I guarantee that price would not get it done.
You have to ask yourself.. if he is such a non miss franchise QB then why isn't there teams like the Dolphins or Broncos interested. Maybe they are but it seems like the buzz is mainly manufactured by the Cards or Rosen camp.
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In comment 14372974 JonC said:
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If they didn't want him a year ago, it would be a significant reversal to ignore their evaluations on him AND trade a premium draft pick, to boot.
This is where I have the question. Did they NOT want him AT ALL last year.. or did they just value Barkley so much higher that they went with their value board?
The word was they didn't love Rosen last year, haven't heard anything different this year. The only QB they considered was Darnold, is what I was told.
Jonc, I would have to assume that was at #2 and not the only QB period from last year that they would have drafted. I mean, if Rosen was there in the second round last year I have to believe the Giants would have taken him. Unless he was off their board completely. So I guess that is where my question lies right now, is Rosen just a NO GO period for the Giants or it depends on what they would have to give up.
I have to think they would have.
2) This year the desire seems stronger to draft a QB.
3) They have more picks this year. If they can land a premium defender @6, there could well be more appetite to take a risk on a QB who has talent but is not a sure thing following.
4) The risks (in their eyes) are probably more of the flavor of personality. etc. than lack of talent. Its easier to talk yourself out of such risks (and take a chance on talent) when the cost is not so extreme.
That said, I doubt they'll pull the trigger. But it is a very different situation than it was a year ago.
a lot of things can change in a year, just ask OBJ
If the Cards haven't traded him before the draft they are complete dopes. If they prove to be that, then maybe this scenario makes a lot of sense since it would hide the Giants intentions at 17 since they could still go QB. Other teams may jump in front of Giants to grab QBs, allowing a playing the Giants may want to fall.
To my eyes, hardly. To their's? Probably.
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If they didn't want him a year ago, it would be a significant reversal to ignore their evaluations on him AND trade a premium draft pick, to boot.
a lot of things can change in a year, just ask OBJ
If you want them to stick to their evaluations and their gut, then this isn't a change I'd endorse. Some are so QB hungry they're not seeing this point.
OMG, longest run-on sentence ever.
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In comment 14372974 JonC said:
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If they didn't want him a year ago, it would be a significant reversal to ignore their evaluations on him AND trade a premium draft pick, to boot.
a lot of things can change in a year, just ask OBJ
If you want them to stick to their evaluations and their gut, then this isn't a change I'd endorse. Some are so QB hungry they're not seeing this point.
I'd point to DG's own words about not talking yourself into drafting a prospect. It is also true we don't have absolute certainty about their grade on Rosen, I'll realize and offer that. That's the part where we all can agree there's a crack it could happen.
well, not really
Gettleman had previously brought Koncz on in a temporary role, serving as an NFL Draft scouting consultant for the Giants before and during the 2018 NFL Draft.
Not saying Rosen is perfect by any means, other teams passed on him too. The Giants picked SB because he's immense talent and proved too hard to pass up.
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Mark Koncz. Remember, he was not here a year ago.
well, not really
Gettleman had previously brought Koncz on in a temporary role, serving as an NFL Draft scouting consultant for the Giants before and during the 2018 NFL Draft.
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If they didn't want him a year ago, it would be a significant reversal to ignore their evaluations on him AND trade a premium draft pick, to boot.
Not saying Rosen is perfect by any means, other teams passed on him too. The Giants picked SB because he's immense talent and proved too hard to pass up.
I was told Darnold was the only QB with a shot at being picked, after a trade down. Not from DG's own mouth, but info I trust.
Well this year youd have what they wanted last yr..barkley..and now rosen
Translation, trade offers aren't good enough.
However, and to my angst, if anything the FO's needle on Eli has moved to hotter whispers of sweet nothings: thus the conclusion that a Rosen deal is not a winning bet. I wish it were otherwise.
but punting on the QB position should be a non-starter.
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In comment 14372974 JonC said:
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If they didn't want him a year ago, it would be a significant reversal to ignore their evaluations on him AND trade a premium draft pick, to boot.
Not saying Rosen is perfect by any means, other teams passed on him too. The Giants picked SB because he's immense talent and proved too hard to pass up.
I was told Darnold was the only QB with a shot at being picked, after a trade down. Not from DG's own mouth, but info I trust.
With a trade down? I'm no draftnic but even I know that would have been impossible to pull off.
I hope for the sake of the franchise this is bad info
I personally dont think Rosen's personality is a problem but he does not seem like a DG type of guy.
This is my opinion, not any info. But just bc they didnt draft him didnt mean they didnt want him or like him. Same with darnold. I think a lot of people are ignoring the idea that ownership pushed to not have a qb last year. It's very possible. And Saquon was the kind of marketable face of the franchise talent/person to help justify the decision.
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That the Cards may draft Murray and still keep Rosen as well kind of like the redskins when they drafted RG3 and Cousins
Translation, trade offers aren't good enough.
Jon:
Here’s why things could change. Let’s say they watched tape of Rosen this year. Watched him make throws, etc. Maybe with additional tape they like him now. It’s possible with a year of him in the NFL, to see how he interacted with teammates, dealt with the press, etc, they see a different guy.
It’s also possible none of that changed and, as many people have said, they simply have no interest in the guy. Time will tell.
Just don't give away 37 and 95. Those will be good picks this year with how deep the draft is
If that is the case then yeah, that makes sense that Rosen would not be an option this year either.
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In comment 14373056 Toth029 said:
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In comment 14372974 JonC said:
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If they didn't want him a year ago, it would be a significant reversal to ignore their evaluations on him AND trade a premium draft pick, to boot.
Not saying Rosen is perfect by any means, other teams passed on him too. The Giants picked SB because he's immense talent and proved too hard to pass up.
I was told Darnold was the only QB with a shot at being picked, after a trade down. Not from DG's own mouth, but info I trust.
With a trade down? I'm no draftnic but even I know that would have been impossible to pull off.
I hope for the sake of the franchise this is bad info
Darnold wasn't even top 5 on their board, so it was an unlikely scenario.
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If they didn't want him a year ago, it would be a significant reversal to ignore their evaluations on him AND trade a premium draft pick, to boot.
This is my opinion, not any info. But just bc they didnt draft him didnt mean they didnt want him or like him. Same with darnold. I think a lot of people are ignoring the idea that ownership pushed to not have a qb last year. It's very possible. And Saquon was the kind of marketable face of the franchise talent/person to help justify the decision.
Understood, I answered this earlier.
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In comment 14373097 tyrik13 said:
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That the Cards may draft Murray and still keep Rosen as well kind of like the redskins when they drafted RG3 and Cousins
Translation, trade offers aren't good enough.
Jon:
Here’s why things could change. Let’s say they watched tape of Rosen this year. Watched him make throws, etc. Maybe with additional tape they like him now. It’s possible with a year of him in the NFL, to see how he interacted with teammates, dealt with the press, etc, they see a different guy.
It’s also possible none of that changed and, as many people have said, they simply have no interest in the guy. Time will tell.
No.
JonC, maybe their eval on Rosen was just a bit less then Barkley last year, and they chose Barkley . Maybe now they'll jump at the chance to get Rosen who was graded just below Barkley last year? Just a thought
If you dont like a player, then thats that.
This is speculation. We were locked in on Barkley, and I'm sure Rosen was in the mix at QB with the other 3 (I mean why not). Maybe they liked Darnold more, but I don't think its fair to say they didn't like Rosen.
Anyway now its a year later. He has 1 year experience, held up really well on the crappiest team in football, played ok for a rookie even though he got pummeled, and toughed it out. When adding all this to the comparison of Rosen vs a draftee, then figure in you are using a #37 instead of a #6 or #17, I think it becomes a no brainer.
Darnold wasn't even top 5 on their board, so it was an unlikely scenario.
This comment is one of the more troubling I have seen about the current management group. For the most part I never quibble with rankings of paid professionals vs what I see. All season in my head I had it that the Giants just felt Saquon was so incredibly good that they couldn't pass him up no matter what QB was out there, even thinking they may have felt that way with Chubb who also had a hell of a season. Seeing this makes me seriously wonder what the hell they could be looking for in a QB if they thought 5 other guys would have been better picks than any QB from last years draft class. Maybe I could give you Saquon Chubb & Nelson ahead of all the QB's; but if Darnold was their top QB ranked (which means he'd be higher than Mayfield on their board) who else could be higher? We know Gettleman doesn't value CB's very high, would they have Denzel Ward above him? Roquan Smith, an inside linebacker? If this management group would have seriously passed over Darnold for a freakin Roquan Smith, and then willing to throw away a pick later on a crappy QB in Lauletta, I just don't know how much faith I can have in them on finding the next QB. Don't get me wrong, I do think Gettleman has good eyes for in the trench players, he hit some major league homers there in the last draft, but I hope his blind spot doesn't turn out to be QB evaluation much like Reese's was on the OLine.
They have the #1 pick so tipping their hand on the draft is ridiculous. There is nobody that could jump ahead of them. If he means tipping their hand on Rosen, if they wait until they draft Murray, then the trade value of Rosen goes down because he more than likely won't be happy sitting behind Murray. If they trade Rosen it must be prior to the draft to get maximum value.
2) He has proven his durability.
3) He has proven his willingness to master an NFL playbook.
4) He has proven he can get along with teammates.
5) We have confirmation that he has an excellent arm.
6) He needs to work on decision making under pressure.
As long as his media presence/personality doesn't disqualify him -- which it might, in Mara's eyes -- he's less of an unknown than any QB in the draft.
That's HUGE.
It wasn't good enough for the team that drafted him. Love for Murray isn't the only factor. Gotta factor in love/hate/in between for Rosen.
Either the Giants are keeping a tight lid on any desire for Rosen, feeding out to the JonC's that there isn't any as misdirection, or they truly don't have any desire for Rosen. I'll go with the latter.
But you are right that it isn't only about his college performance now
If you dont like a player, then thats that.
Because personnel decisions are rarely black and white. You may not like a player in the first round, but like him more in the second or third. You may like him more if you don't have to pay him any guaranteed money.
Using an extreme example, if he could have had for a 7th round pick as an arm to bring into camp and compete, would the opinion still be "nope, this guy can't play in the NFL" or would they take a flier? I don't think any of us know.
If they have no interest in Rosen, I have a feeling it is more about him being outspoken and potentially a lightning rod of controversy as opposed to it being based on his skills alone. There didn't seem to be any drat experts who thought the guy just wasn't an NFL level talent.
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If they didn't want him a year ago, it would be a significant reversal to ignore their evaluations on him AND trade a premium draft pick, to boot.
This is speculation. We were locked in on Barkley, and I'm sure Rosen was in the mix at QB with the other 3 (I mean why not). Maybe they liked Darnold more, but I don't think its fair to say they didn't like Rosen.
Anyway now its a year later. He has 1 year experience, held up really well on the crappiest team in football, played ok for a rookie even though he got pummeled, and toughed it out. When adding all this to the comparison of Rosen vs a draftee, then figure in you are using a #37 instead of a #6 or #17, I think it becomes a no brainer.
It is mostly informed, some speculation.
Sticking with Eli, failing Lauletta, and no interest in Rosen for peanuts ... All questionable.
Sticking with Eli, failing Lauletta, and no interest in Rosen for peanuts ... All questionable.
All reasonable assertions. Of all the QBs last year and this year, Darnold was the only one I would've picked when we had the opportunity to do so, however. That's the magic of the draft!
So expect the deal to get done before the Draft. Probably in the week leading up to it.
If you dont like a player, then thats that.
No, it really isnt that. It means they didnt like him at #2 overall with Barkley available.
The Chargers took LdT in the 1st and Drew Brees in the 2nd. Doesnt mean they didnt like Brees, it means they didnt like him in the 1st with LdT available.
That said, maybe the Giants dont like him for #37 (doesnt sound like they do) but it isnt as simple as, "they like him or they dont like him."
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about Rosen if our people with info keep telling them they didnt like him last year nor do they like him this year?
If you dont like a player, then thats that.
No, it really isnt that. It means they didnt like him at #2 overall with Barkley available.
The Chargers took LdT in the 1st and Drew Brees in the 2nd. Doesnt mean they didnt like Brees, it means they didnt like him in the 1st with LdT available.
That said, maybe the Giants dont like him for #37 (doesnt sound like they do) but it isnt as simple as, "they like him or they dont like him."
And yet, people with contacts and inside knowledge have said that they don't like him.
If you dont like a player, then thats that.
And yet, people with contacts and inside knowledge have said that they don't like him.
They have not said that they flat out dont like him. They have said they have concerns and he wasnt the #1 Qb on their board last year. Other people with contacts have said that the Giants have inquired about him and are open to trading for him at the right price.
If they flat out took him off their board then they wouldnt bother inquiring, would they?
I doubt we get him bc someone else will offer more, not because it is as simple as "they dont like him, no way, no how - he is off our radar completely."
So it makes total sense that when doing their research they at the very least have looked at Rosen, watching film and putting a value on acquiring him, no different than the other QB's available in the draft. Put him on the board knowing what the cost will be.
Lets day the Giants like Lock better than Rosen but won't select Lock with the 6th pick but may be willing to move up to 9 with Buffalo to jump Denver. That will cost them at least a 3rd round pick, which means using 2 picks to get their QB.
If Rosen is on par with Lock for NYG than if it is just pick 37 to get a QB then it makes sense to use a lower singular pick.
It comes down to value. We won't know the cost of the players in the draft until the draft starts to unfold.
This is what I think is preventing any deal from happening right now.
If you dont like a player, then thats that.
I guess they are hoping the inside guys are wrong. Never know, they could end up pulling the trigger. Based on JonC and others comments I've never even gotten in the mindset he's a possibility.
Yup.
I don't think he'd do well here. Never did.
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That the Cards may draft Murray and still keep Rosen as well kind of like the redskins when they drafted RG3 and Cousins
Translation, trade offers aren't good enough.
That’s what I picked up from that as well
Took BPA in the draft confident in the belief that their QB has a few years left?
Or some other definition of "not wanting".
I don't see how anyone can be arguing that he is bust could be a bust at this point.
Decades ago the NY media was a difference with other cities. That hasn't been the case for quite a long time now. Big Ben would absolutely not have imploded in NY. It's not like Pittsburgh doesn't have media or that stories don't get picked up nationally.
Just don't give away 37 and 95. Those will be good picks this year with how deep the draft is
Too many holes to give away picks for Lock
So expect the deal to get done before the Draft. Probably in the week leading up to it.
They really don’t have to trade him. As I stated above they’re contemplating on keeping him, similar to Redskins with Cousins and RG3 or Eagles with Foles and Wentz.
And he didn't bitch at all last year despite being thrown to the wolves - here are some stats to consider.
rushing game worst in nfl only 83 yards/game. That's barely 2 quarters worth of a decent running attack
2018 - 495 pass plays = 31 pass plays/game
Rosen was sacked 52 times & Hit 109 times = 161
161/495 = approximately 33%
This means that he was hit or sacked about every 3rd passing play and that is not counting hurries. I'd like to hear how you can objectively determine whether a rookie QB in that situation is a bust.
And he didn't bitch at all last year despite being thrown to the wolves - here are some stats to consider.
rushing game worst in nfl only 83 yards/game. That's barely 2 quarters worth of a decent running attack
2018 - 495 pass plays = 31 pass plays/game
Rosen was sacked 52 times & Hit 109 times = 161
161/495 = approximately 33%
This means that he was hit or sacked about every 3rd passing play and that is not counting hurries. I'd like to hear how you can objectively determine whether a rookie QB in that situation is a bust.
Rosen was in a bad situation last year without a doubt. People who think he would be a bad addition to this roster compared to the QB's available in the draft do not really understand what is important with regards to the QB position. The fact that NYG drafted Barkley has more to do with how much they loved Barkley as opposed to what they thought about Rosen.
It is all moot if DG and others don't like him, but if he goes to Washington and thrives, we will live to regret it.
[quote] behind Murray. I like Haskins, but Rosen is more polished and can already make all of the throws. To me, getting him for a 2nd rounder is a no-brainer. He could be a low-cost, long-term solution to our QB quandry.
It's the 'Long-term" thing that you mentioned that concerns me about Rosen. I don't see him having a long career. With his past concussion issues and the wealthy background (does not need to provide for his family) I can't see him lasting for 10 years if he gets a head injury or two early in his career.
If you get him for a 3rd fine. A 1st - no way. A 2nd - wouldn't love it.
I would hope that if they like Lock that much, they would just pick him at 6 and retain the 17th pick and probably the 2nd that it would cost them to move up.
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Have you heard anything about the Giants possibly trading up from 17 if Locks falls to 11 or 12?
I would hope that if they like Lock that much, they would just pick him at 6 and retain the 17th pick and probably the 2nd that it would cost them to move up.
As I said before, if the have a strong conviction about Lock, they have to take him at 6 or risk losing him altogether
Consider that he had those circumstances and he said nothing negative, about anyone. Made absolutely ZERO excuses. Larry Fitzgerald endorsed him and not one Arizona teammate had anything negative to say about him. The Cardinals hired a coach with no NFL experience that LOVES Murray. They have been openly gaga over Murray and have done nothing to say Rosen is their guy. Rosen has said nothing AT ALL.
To sum up.
Drafted into an awful situation
Handled it with class.
Made no excuses.
Took a beating and kept playing.
No political comments AT ALL at AZ.
AZ openly looking at another QB after he had no chance last year.
Handling the 2019 draft speculation like a pro.
Just like it is understandable that they may not get things right when evaluating QBs...
No.
What if Lock, Jones and Grier all are still available? How about 2/3 of those noted, which I think is likely?
It's uncommon, but very good QBs sometimes slip into the 2nd round. If Shurmur really doesn't value top tier arm strength then Jones and Grier can be seen as potential franchise QBS.
If Shurmur had said “I really love Haskins”, would we all be convinced that he will be the Giants pick?
No, because DG makes the pick, so don’t assume it doesn’t work the same way with 90% of the teams.
In comment 14372974 JonC said: Quote: Darnold wasn't even top 5 on their board, so it was an unlikely scenario. [/quote]
It's actually a win-win-win. You get a young QB. You get a QB with NFL experience.
And you get a QB in only the second year of his rookie deal, which would be dirt cheap after the swap and the Cards have to absorb the signing bonus. So if Rosen doesn't work out, the exposure is minimal and it's on to the next QB opportunity.
The more I think about it, the more it's clear that over half the league should be in on this...
It's actually a win-win-win. You get a young QB. You get a QB with NFL experience.
And you get a QB in only the second year of his rookie deal, which would be dirt cheap after the swap and the Cards have to absorb the signing bonus. So if Rosen doesn't work out, the exposure is minimal and it's on to the next QB opportunity.
The more I think about it, the more it's clear that over half the league should be in on this...
That's what I've been saying. If the Giants trade for him there is nothing stopping them from also drafting Fromm/Herbert/Tua.
It really is time to rethink how quarterbacks should be drafted. For example I think Cleveland maybe should have drafted both Mayfield and Rosen/Allen.
It's actually a win-win-win. You get a young QB. You get a QB with NFL experience.
And you get a QB in only the second year of his rookie deal, which would be dirt cheap after the swap and the Cards have to absorb the signing bonus. So if Rosen doesn't work out, the exposure is minimal and it's on to the next QB opportunity.
Agreed. And there is a contingent on here that has been saying the same...
I'm not opposed to the idea of our 2nd round pick. But if the Giants were particular on Rosen and offered our #17, then I would expect Arizona to have to give up their 2nd to even out the trade.
I'm not opposed to the idea of our 2nd round pick. But if the Giants were particular on Rosen and offered our #17, then I would expect Arizona to have to give up their 2nd to even out the trade.
Makes sense
maybe they are holding out because they have no intent of moving Rosen...
Cards might see, say 5 teams interested in Rosen, none of who match their offer, but they may survey the landscape and see only 3-4 round 1 graded prospects, whoever misses out might become desperate when they miss out on their guy. That's the gamble the Cards seem to be willing to play.
Or decrease, as the pool of potential QB purchasers lessens by settling on the selection other QB rookies.
So with this kind of thinking by the Giants FO, I don’t see them taking a QB until maybe later in the draft if one slips, like Grier in the 4th round. Why would they take Lock or Jones at 17 or even Jones at 37 when there’s a good possibility you could have Rosen at 37? Just doesn’t make sense....
So I’m thinking that DL/Edge with the 6th pick. DL/OL/WR/LB with the 17th and 37th picks.
Personally I would love to have Murray, but I think we ride with Eli in 19-20 and go after a QB in next years draft. Which I’m ok with...just hope DG crushes this draft and fills a lot of the holes we have.