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Analysis: Rashan Gary is the Ereck Flowers of Defensive Ends

MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 2:13 pm
There has been a lot of speculation that he is in play for the Giants at #6. According to some asshats he's a top 6 player for the Giants. He certainly checks all of the measurable boxes. 6'4" plus, check. 4.58 forty, check. 277 lbs, check. And he checks other boxes too. Splash plays in college? Check. Does he get you drooling about what he could be? Check.

In short, if you just look at paper and remember the big plays then he is a sure thing.

But what about the rest of the tape? Well, that's where we start to run into problems. So let's do that below.

And to put a disclaimer out there, no, I'm not saying Gary is a bad prospect. I'm saying he's overrated. And more specifically, I'm saying he should not be our draft pick at #6. Don't forget, Flowers would have been a great 3rd round pick. He was dripping with potential. Being drafted later could have made him realize he needed to accept coaching. He would have felt less pressure. He would not have had to come in the first year and he could have learned.

Here is a highlight reel of Gary. I repeat, this is a highlight reel for Gary. What do you see:

"The Most Dynamic Defensive End in the COUNTRY"

I'll tell you what I see, and I suspect you see the same thing. That's a horrible highlight reel. I see a player capitalizing on great coverage from his secondary, cleaning up after pressure from other teammates, and making obvious plays when he's not blocked where his HWS look good. And again, I stress these are his highlights.

So what do you see when you watch the tape? A lot worse. Let's look:

Gary vs. ND

I see an athlete without football technique. I see someone who thinks their strength and athleticism are enough to be great. He gets stuck on defenders. Rarely disrupts the line of scrimmage. Get's lost taking too long to process the play and finds himself out of position. And most importantly, someone who struggling to get to the quarterback. In short, I see the Ereck Flowers of defensive ends.

Watch the play at 1:58. He has outside contain responsibility on an option play and not only does not process the option in time to crash the play, totally freezes and instead find himself out of position to make a play, and the quarterback beats him to the edge.

Now watch the play at 3:54. Another run play. Line crashes toward left and execute a quasi-trap of him with a tight end. Instead of doing any stack and shed of the tight end he drops his head, losing sight of the RB who runs right by him for a first down. This is not what a top 10 player does when being blocked by a TE. This is not a playmaker.

Regarding pass rush, there's no need for me to spend time curating your viewing experience on this tape - watch 5 plays anywhere in there and tell me you see anything resembling something besides lame attempts at bullrushes or running fully around someone without any hint of a move, dip, or bend. I will give you one play though. This is what solidifies the Ereck Flowers comparison. See here: 6:33 One, it is such a typical example what to expect from him when rushing the passer; and two, it shows him rushing from a 2-point stance which is where he could at least occasionally be in a Bettcher defense.

Now let's look at another tape. Let's look at his Rutgers tape. ND has fantastic tackles so it would be a fair to raise that the above tape is cherry picking an example when he was going up against great competition. That would be wrong, but it would be fair. Unless you think NFL tackles are worse than ND's.

So here's the tape: Gary vs. Rutgers

The results speak for themselves:

0:01 First play of game. Puts head down, doesn't see fake, goes in opposite direction of the play.

0:23 Blocked easily by TE. This is a match-up he needs to dominate.

0:41 Gives up half way through his rush. He got confused if he was bull-rushing or making a move.

0:47 Dominated at POA by the LT and washed out.

1:28 Last man to fire out of stance. Handled at POA easily. Play is to other side but he creates no disruption regardless.

1:37 Next play. Last man out of stance again. And again handled easily at POA without creating any disruption.

1:45 Next play. Last man out of stance again. Defeats the whiffed block by OL but immediately freezes and running back goes by for nice gain.

So when considering Gary let's just remember this - he had 3.5 sacks all of last year. And in the last two years he had less than 10 sacks combined. In what world should we select a pass rusher in the top 10 who isn't good at rushing the passer? Players in the top 10 should be making an immediate impact. Gary has potential with his unique HWS, but he doesn't have production and his tape, as we just saw, is bad.

Being a bad top 10 prospect does not itself lend itself to a comparison to Flowers. Being a bust in the top 10 does not either make an automatic Flowers comparison. Rashan Gary is the Ereck Flowers of defensive ends because he has no technique, is sloppy, and relies on his perceived strengths to get by. I won't say he rejects coaching because I have no idea, maybe they're just not teaching anything at Michigan! I mean, I doubt that, but who knows! What we do know is what we see on the tape. And Rashan Gary is not worthy of our #6 pick.



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Ouch.  
Klaatu : 4/7/2019 2:18 pm : link
.....
Glad Reese isn't around  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/7/2019 2:24 pm : link
Anymore.
I was listening to NFL Radio last week  
montanagiant : 4/7/2019 2:26 pm : link
And one of the morning shows broke down his play and it was quite damning. Consensus was he is way overrated
RE: Glad Reese isn't around  
FStubbs : 4/7/2019 2:33 pm : link
In comment 14375726 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Anymore.


Reese would go with Montez Sweat who has even better measurables.
Jerry Reese would be all over Gary  
JohnB : 4/7/2019 2:35 pm : link
That's not a knock on him but simply a statement of fact. Reese loved players a ton of potential and disregarded the production end. Sometimes it worked out really well like JPP and other times it didn't work out like..... well almost every other one of his "potential" picks.

Gary would be a disappointing pick, even before this thread  
SHO'NUFF : 4/7/2019 2:39 pm : link
now he's a remote tossing pick. And i'm not too sure about Sweat, either.
I would stay away from him unless he was the last guy in my tier.  
Ivan15 : 4/7/2019 2:56 pm : link
I guess that an excuse for underperforming could be if he didn’t fit the scheme or was playing out of position (like Lawrence Taylor playing DT),
Great title  
oreojenkins : 4/7/2019 3:12 pm : link
And I agree.
So I'm listening to Dave-Te's podcast...  
Klaatu : 4/7/2019 3:30 pm : link
And he projects Gary to the Giants.
You do realize he was injured in 2018?  
RobCarpenter : 4/7/2019 3:30 pm : link
He probably should have sat out the season.
Assume he won’t be picked 6 since..  
morrison40 : 4/7/2019 3:32 pm : link
Gettleman watches tape “till his eyes bleed “
Lol  
dep026 : 4/7/2019 3:37 pm : link
It’s like people can’t read on BBI

HE PLAYED WITH A SEPARATED SHOUKDER ALL YEAR WHICH THE DOCTORS TOLD HIM NOT TO PLAY!!!!!!


Comparing him to Ereck flowers who was fat and lazy and don’t give a shit is the worst comparison I ever saw.
Hmmmm  
Giantz_comeback : 4/7/2019 3:49 pm : link
I would agree with this.

Big gap between production and measurables. Not worth #6.
It's  
AcidTest : 4/7/2019 3:55 pm : link
hard to know about Gary. In a way, he's like Jones in that both were hindered by something beyond their control. With Gary it was his injury, and the fact that Michigan didn't use him correctly. (Houston and Oregon also didn't use Oliver and Jenks correctly either.) With Jones, it was his OL and drops by his receivers.

But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.

I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.

RE: It's  
Giantz_comeback : 4/7/2019 3:59 pm : link
In comment 14375907 AcidTest said:
Quote:
hard to know about Gary. In a way, he's like Jones in that both were hindered by something beyond their control. With Gary it was his injury, and the fact that Michigan didn't use him correctly. (Houston and Oregon also didn't use Oliver and Jenks correctly either.) With Jones, it was his OL and drops by his receivers.

But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.

I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.


Oliver was quite productive rushing the passer when he wasn't playing nose.
RE: You do realize he was injured in 2018?  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14375865 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
He probably should have sat out the season.


Nice, welcome to the party. The Rutgers game was after he came back after sitting out a month.

And further, I don't get your point. Is it your point that being injured made him forget (1) basic football IQ, (2) what a pass rush move was, (3) fire out of his stance, (4) use at least one hand in fight with?

Probably should have sat out the season? So you're saying he has horrible judgement then too?

Or maybe your point is that he'll never get injured in the NFL and so we shouldn't be worried if when he gets hurt and he becomes horrible at football.

What would be a great contribution instead of your stupid sarcastic one-liner is if you can find us some 2017 game tape then that shows pass rush moves / football IQ / stack and shed ability. You know, substantiate your point with actual analysis that furthers the conversation.

On second thought, I'll do it for you, here is 2017 tape versus Florida: Gary vs. Florida

And what do we see here? The same exact shit.

0:00 First play of game, is unblocked, completely missed the jet sweep. Like he didn't even know it happened.

1:20 Get easily handled at POA on a pass rush, then completely misses chance for tackle after excellent coverage

2:26 RT blows him up and then because of slow developing play he has a chance but botches the angle and it goes for a touchdown.

2:46 Last man out of stance and handled by TE

So thanks for playing.
RE: Lol  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 4:02 pm : link
In comment 14375877 dep026 said:
Quote:
It’s like people can’t read on BBI

HE PLAYED WITH A SEPARATED SHOUKDER ALL YEAR WHICH THE DOCTORS TOLD HIM NOT TO PLAY!!!!!!


Comparing him to Ereck flowers who was fat and lazy and don’t give a shit is the worst comparison I ever saw.


Nice job using all caps. I hear if you just use all caps you don't have to actually have evidence to back up your point of view, people will just believe you. Are you a screamer in real life too?
I don’t want Gary either  
Dave on the UWS : 4/7/2019 4:03 pm : link
But his tape from 2017 is MUCH more impressive
RE: It's  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 4:13 pm : link
In comment 14375907 AcidTest said:
Quote:
hard to know about Gary. In a way, he's like Jones in that both were hindered by something beyond their control. With Gary it was his injury, and the fact that Michigan didn't use him correctly. (Houston and Oregon also didn't use Oliver and Jenks correctly either.) With Jones, it was his OL and drops by his receivers.

But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.

I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.


Oliver is on my list of preferences for the pick too. He changes the LOS on every play.

Can you clarify what you mean by UM not using Gary properly? How so?
If a guy is hurt, he's hard to evaluate.  
81_Great_Dane : 4/7/2019 4:13 pm : link
The Giants had pretty good success with Justin Tuck and Corey Webster by looking at prior years. But if a guy is hurt and doesn't have good performance and good tape from before the injury, how do you know what he might have been without the injury?
Analytics has him as the 6th pick to Giants  
giantstock : 4/7/2019 4:13 pm : link
I can;t believe it., They speak of his "split 2second burst" but acknowledge his lack of productivity.
Further they mention how he "fits" in Betcher's system. I guess players that have a lack of productivity fit in Betcher's system as a number 6 pick? Ugggghh!!

I have little confidence in DG and the HC. Therefore I expect Gary to be taken 1st and Jones to be taken 2nd.

Well if we get either guy can't wait to see how the analytics measures up for gary and the projections of some with Jones. I find it fascinating and fun. Regardless I'll be excited to be watching football.
RE: If a guy is hurt, he's hard to evaluate.  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 4:17 pm : link
In comment 14375939 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
The Giants had pretty good success with Justin Tuck and Corey Webster by looking at prior years. But if a guy is hurt and doesn't have good performance and good tape from before the injury, how do you know what he might have been without the injury?


Appreciate the comment, here's my response:

(1) Tuck and Webster were 3rd and 2nd round picks respectively. The risk is exponentially greater when talking about the #6 pick in the draft.

(2) I provide analysis of the 2017 tape above. It shows the same issues.

(3) As I went out of my way to say in my original analysis, I'm not saying he's a bad prospect. I'm saying he's not the right pick at #6.
RE: Analytics has him as the 6th pick to Giants  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/7/2019 4:20 pm : link
In comment 14375940 giantstock said:
Quote:
I can;t believe it., They speak of his "split 2second burst" but acknowledge his lack of productivity.
Further they mention how he "fits" in Betcher's system. I guess players that have a lack of productivity fit in Betcher's system as a number 6 pick? Ugggghh!!

I have little confidence in DG and the HC. Therefore I expect Gary to be taken 1st and Jones to be taken 2nd.

Well if we get either guy can't wait to see how the analytics measures up for gary and the projections of some with Jones. I find it fascinating and fun. Regardless I'll be excited to be watching football.


Why so little faith? Last year’s draft was the best in a
Looong time. Reese missed year after year and people here still want laud him at times. I’ll be cautiously optimistic. And with the stupidity of
So mAny teams Jones will most likely be gone by 17 allaying one of your fears
I love when dudes come here  
dep026 : 4/7/2019 4:52 pm : link
Under the same obvious handles and judge a player on 2-3 plays a game as if not dominating every play means you suck.


This is a shit thread with a shittier analysis.
And I love the remark....  
dep026 : 4/7/2019 4:55 pm : link
Well he sat 4 weeks during the year, so he should have been ready to be full strength...

At some point I hope people realize that Gary should never have played this year but did it cause he wanted to win. Yet Goblue6599, I mean MM won’t admit his year long injury affected his performance.
RE: I love when dudes come here  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 5:01 pm : link
In comment 14375987 dep026 said:
Quote:
Under the same obvious handles and judge a player on 2-3 plays a game as if not dominating every play means you suck.


This is a shit thread with a shittier analysis.


You seem rankled. Are you rankled? This was objective analysis on Gary. Why are you taking this so personally? Seriously. Are you ill?

If you disagree, here's an idea, get some evidence that supports your view and bring it forward. Then we can discuss.

Or you can just scream and make insults.

The problem of course with finding contrary evidence is that you won't find much of it. When someone has a lack of production like this you won't be able to find tape that doesn't exist.

Also, don't forget, I already included his highlight reel. In fact, I started with that.

So come back when you evidence of (1) pass rush moves, (2) football iq, (3) anything resembling a coherent argument.
I don’t need to get back with shit  
dep026 : 4/7/2019 5:09 pm : link
Gary has been diagnosed for months with a lot of highlights and randomly picking 2-3 plays per game doesn’t make you objective. It makes you the complete opposite.

You don’t understand his job. You didn’t understand his role. For fucks sake you don’t even understand how injured he was. So that’s why your opinion is shitty and not worth another second.

Go find another handle goblue6599.
RE:  
Klaatu : 4/7/2019 5:11 pm : link
In comment 14375948 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
(3) As I went out of my way to say in my original analysis, I'm not saying he's a bad prospect. I'm saying he's not the right pick at #6.


I think this is your most salient point. I've read an awful lot of write-ups on Gary, watched several videos analyzing his game and his prospects going forward, and almost to a man you get a "buyer beware" vibe, at least when it when it comes to drafting him in the 1st Round (let alone in the top ten).
Not looking this year  
idiotsavant : 4/7/2019 5:17 pm : link
But, after the initial wow on Gary I gotta say, Oliver sounds, via you all, a much more interesting prospect.

Q Will,

Oliver/Allen

The Ilbs.

The nose tackles.

Is there a round where Gary has value? Sure. Can he be used? Sure.
RE: I don’t need to get back with shit  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14376002 dep026 said:
Quote:
Gary has been diagnosed for months with a lot of highlights and randomly picking 2-3 plays per game doesn’t make you objective. It makes you the complete opposite.

You don’t understand his job. You didn’t understand his role. For fucks sake you don’t even understand how injured he was. So that’s why your opinion is shitty and not worth another second.

Go find another handle goblue6599.


Well, I guess I'm not surprised by your response. Clearly my analysis of a football prospect upset you personally. You have screamed, insulted me, and accused my of being someone else. You are a great contributor to this site. Hope you have a good day.

Also, for the record, I have no idea who you're accusing me of being.
RE: RE: I don’t need to get back with shit  
dep026 : 4/7/2019 5:23 pm : link
In comment 14376015 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:


Also, for the record, I have no idea


This is the smartest thing you’ve said all thread. Great place to end this.
Looks like Tarzan  
Chris L. : 4/7/2019 5:26 pm : link
plays like jane
And to make this clear  
dep026 : 4/7/2019 5:26 pm : link
You’re a dupe - which a poster who was banned under a different handle and made up a new posting name.

You posted the same stuff under Goblue6599. Same posting style. Same format. Same hatred for Gary. That username is now banned(which you already know.)

And I suspect this one will be soon too.
...no  
Chris L. : 4/7/2019 5:26 pm : link
thanks!
I  
AcidTest : 4/7/2019 5:33 pm : link
am constantly amazed at how many people are willing to use profanity and make personal insults about sports, as if any of this is "life and death."
RE: RE: Glad Reese isn't around  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 5:43 pm : link
In comment 14375740 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 14375726 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


Anymore.



Reese would go with Montez Sweat who has even better measurables.


Reese did hit on a few good players with his first rounders. For as much fault lies with him for the current state of things you can't take that away from him. HWS do matter. His problem was he got too carried away with potential and lost sight of football IQ and LTI.
You know what MM...  
dep026 : 4/7/2019 6:01 pm : link
I apologize... even though your posting is similar to another ban poster, I shouldn’t assume that’s you.

And even though your headline is something I find ludicrous... I’ll respectfully disagree with your opinion and site the other threads why I believe Gary will be an impactful player.

Again. My apologies.
I've seen every game Gary has played  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 4/7/2019 6:10 pm : link
I wouldn't touch him with either of our first round picks.
RE: You know what MM...  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14376044 dep026 said:
Quote:
I apologize... even though your posting is similar to another ban poster, I shouldn’t assume that’s you.

And even though your headline is something I find ludicrous... I’ll respectfully disagree with your opinion and site the other threads why I believe Gary will be an impactful player.

Again. My apologies.


I respect your apologizing. Thank you.
RE: I've seen every game Gary has played  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 6:19 pm : link
In comment 14376049 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
I wouldn't touch him with either of our first round picks.


How do you feel about Bush? I am excited for the prospect of him at 17.
RE: RE: It's  
Giantz_comeback : 4/7/2019 6:24 pm : link
In comment 14375938 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 14375907 AcidTest said:


Quote:


hard to know about Gary. In a way, he's like Jones in that both were hindered by something beyond their control. With Gary it was his injury, and the fact that Michigan didn't use him correctly. (Houston and Oregon also didn't use Oliver and Jenks correctly either.) With Jones, it was his OL and drops by his receivers.

But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.

I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.




Oliver is on my list of preferences for the pick too. He changes the LOS on every play.

Can you clarify what you mean by UM not using Gary properly? How so?


Dave Te seems to think Giants are not high on Oliver's fit in our defense.

If that's the case I really hope they take Sweat, Burns or White if the top 4 go Murray, Bosa , Quinnen and Allen.
Gary is sooo  
XBRONX : 4/7/2019 6:28 pm : link
overrated. Thanks for the post.
I will not be disappointed with Gary at #6  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 4/7/2019 6:32 pm : link
He is a disrupter. He will collapse the pocket. He needs to learn some pass rush moves, something he clearly didn't get at Michigan. The comparison to Ereck Flowers is borderline ridiculous.

You might think he is over-rated, and I can understand that, but he's going to be drafted within the first ten picks, and maybe the first five. We will wait and see how it plays out. I think his best football is ahead of him. He is a dedicated athlete who will grow, improve and compete.
RE: RE: RE: It's  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 6:33 pm : link
In comment 14376064 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14375938 MM_in_NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 14375907 AcidTest said:


Quote:


hard to know about Gary. In a way, he's like Jones in that both were hindered by something beyond their control. With Gary it was his injury, and the fact that Michigan didn't use him correctly. (Houston and Oregon also didn't use Oliver and Jenks correctly either.) With Jones, it was his OL and drops by his receivers.

But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.

I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.




Oliver is on my list of preferences for the pick too. He changes the LOS on every play.

Can you clarify what you mean by UM not using Gary properly? How so?



Dave Te seems to think Giants are not high on Oliver's fit in our defense.

If that's the case I really hope they take Sweat, Burns or White if the top 4 go Murray, Bosa , Quinnen and Allen.


He may not be a great fit. And I can't speak to his attitude which is an unknown for most of us. But I do know that you make room for amazingly talented people and find roles for them - i.e. you coach better.

Regardless I am with you in White. He would be special. I also think Clelin Ferrell will go top higher than people expect and I would not rule him out at 6.
RE: RE: I've seen every game Gary has played  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 4/7/2019 6:37 pm : link
In comment 14376055 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 14376049 Bold Ruler said:


Quote:


I wouldn't touch him with either of our first round picks.



How do you feel about Bush? I am excited for the prospect of him at 17.


I would run to the podium for Bush at #17
RE: I will not be disappointed with Gary at #6  
MM_in_NYC : 4/7/2019 6:53 pm : link
In comment 14376077 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
He is a disrupter. He will collapse the pocket. He needs to learn some pass rush moves, something he clearly didn't get at Michigan. The comparison to Ereck Flowers is borderline ridiculous.

You might think he is over-rated, and I can understand that, but he's going to be drafted within the first ten picks, and maybe the first five. We will wait and see how it plays out. I think his best football is ahead of him. He is a dedicated athlete who will grow, improve and compete.


The argument I made to compare him to Flowers was lack of technique, sloppy play, and reliance on HWS. The tape I provided also shows that he is not particularly effective at being disruptive.

If you think that is "borderline ridiculous" then use the tape to show how I am wrong and that he has technique, is not sloppy, and does not make whatever plays he does because of reliance HWS. Show me that he learned something from his coaches at Michigan.

I would remind you as well that Flowers went #9. I remind you that not because I think you forgot but instead to raise the point that even seasoned and highly compensated NFL talent evaluators routinely overvalue players with this type of potential, they have for decades, and the mere fact that he may go top 10 does not refute the analysis of the tape I've put forward.

Now the counter-argument to my point is one that I readily admit - he does have talent. He is clearly a top 100 player in this year's draft. His HWS is special and if he can develop that he can be dominant. I'm not disputing that. But the mere fact his technique is this undeveloped raises the risk of his ever attaining the success he could be capable. Why has he never developed basic techniques? Why does he not have any pass rush moves? Why cannot he not stack and shed tight ends eith ease? These points raise his risk level tremendously. It also increases his length-til-impact. And we need immediate impact from our top picks. We simply cannot afford to take on this level of risk nor cannot we wait.
RE: RE: I will not be disappointed with Gary at #6  
Giantz_comeback : 4/7/2019 7:01 pm : link
In comment 14376104 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 14376077 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:


Quote:


He is a disrupter. He will collapse the pocket. He needs to learn some pass rush moves, something he clearly didn't get at Michigan. The comparison to Ereck Flowers is borderline ridiculous.

You might think he is over-rated, and I can understand that, but he's going to be drafted within the first ten picks, and maybe the first five. We will wait and see how it plays out. I think his best football is ahead of him. He is a dedicated athlete who will grow, improve and compete.



The argument I made to compare him to Flowers was lack of technique, sloppy play, and reliance on HWS. The tape I provided also shows that he is not particularly effective at being disruptive.

If you think that is "borderline ridiculous" then use the tape to show how I am wrong and that he has technique, is not sloppy, and does not make whatever plays he does because of reliance HWS. Show me that he learned something from his coaches at Michigan.

I would remind you as well that Flowers went #9. I remind you that not because I think you forgot but instead to raise the point that even seasoned and highly compensated NFL talent evaluators routinely overvalue players with this type of potential, they have for decades, and the mere fact that he may go top 10 does not refute the analysis of the tape I've put forward.

Now the counter-argument to my point is one that I readily admit - he does have talent. He is clearly a top 100 player in this year's draft. His HWS is special and if he can develop that he can be dominant. I'm not disputing that. But the mere fact his technique is this undeveloped raises the risk of his ever attaining the success he could be capable. Why has he never developed basic techniques? Why does he not have any pass rush moves? Why cannot he not stack and shed tight ends eith ease? These points raise his risk level tremendously. It also increases his length-til-impact. And we need immediate impact from our top picks. We simply cannot afford to take on this level of risk nor cannot we wait.


Just found more videos that break down his lack of pass rush ability. These are short but excellent.
Gary - ( New Window )
I rather Bush @ 17 than Gary at 6  
dep026 : 4/7/2019 7:03 pm : link
Because I still want QWill, Allen and possibly Oliver.
RE: I rather Bush @ 17 than Gary at 6  
Rjanyg : 4/7/2019 7:24 pm : link
In comment 14376114 dep026 said:
Quote:
Because I still want QWill, Allen and possibly Oliver.


Oliver and Bush in round 1 is ideal. Both would step in and start from day 1 and we need both a 5 Tech and an ILB to play next to Ogletree. Would love a OLB as well.
RE: RE: If a guy is hurt, he's hard to evaluate.  
81_Great_Dane : 4/7/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14375948 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 14375939 81_Great_Dane said:


Quote:


The Giants had pretty good success with Justin Tuck and Corey Webster by looking at prior years. But if a guy is hurt and doesn't have good performance and good tape from before the injury, how do you know what he might have been without the injury?



Appreciate the comment, here's my response:

(1) Tuck and Webster were 3rd and 2nd round picks respectively. The risk is exponentially greater when talking about the #6 pick in the draft.

(2) I provide analysis of the 2017 tape above. It shows the same issues.

(3) As I went out of my way to say in my original analysis, I'm not saying he's a bad prospect. I'm saying he's not the right pick at #6.
Sorry, didn't mean to contradict anything you are saying. I'm saying the "He was hurt in 2018" argument only means you have to look at prior years' tape to see what he's capable of. If that tape isn't great, then you can't assume the injury is what held his performance back in 2018.

As for what the tape shows, I can't imagine the Giants' scouts rate it higher than BBIers do. They are looking at the same tape.
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