There has been a lot of speculation that he is in play for the Giants at #6. According to some asshats he's a top 6 player for the Giants. He certainly checks all of the measurable boxes. 6'4" plus, check. 4.58 forty, check. 277 lbs, check. And he checks other boxes too. Splash plays in college? Check. Does he get you drooling about what he
could be? Check.
In short, if you just look at paper and remember the big plays then he is a sure thing.
But what about the rest of the tape? Well, that's where we start to run into problems. So let's do that below.
And to put a disclaimer out there, no, I'm not saying Gary is a
bad prospect. I'm saying he's overrated. And more specifically, I'm saying he should not be our draft pick at #6. Don't forget, Flowers would have been a great 3rd round pick. He was dripping with potential. Being drafted later could have made him realize he needed to accept coaching. He would have felt less pressure. He would not have had to come in the first year and he could have learned.
Here is a highlight reel of Gary. I repeat, this is a highlight reel for Gary. What do you see:
"The Most Dynamic Defensive End in the COUNTRY"
I'll tell you what I see, and I suspect you see the same thing. That's a horrible highlight reel. I see a player capitalizing on great coverage from his secondary, cleaning up after pressure from other teammates, and making obvious plays when he's not blocked where his HWS look good. And again, I stress these are his
highlights.
So what do you see when you watch the tape? A lot worse. Let's look:
Gary vs. ND
I see an athlete without football technique. I see someone who thinks their strength and athleticism are enough to be great. He gets stuck on defenders. Rarely disrupts the line of scrimmage. Get's lost taking too long to process the play and finds himself out of position. And most importantly, someone who struggling to get to the quarterback. In short, I see the Ereck Flowers of defensive ends.
Watch the play at
1:58. He has outside contain responsibility on an option play and not only does not process the option in time to crash the play, totally freezes and instead find himself out of position to make a play, and the quarterback beats him to the edge.
Now watch the play at
3:54. Another run play. Line crashes toward left and execute a quasi-trap of him with a tight end. Instead of doing any stack and shed of the tight end he drops his head, losing sight of the RB who runs right by him for a first down. This is not what a top 10 player does when being blocked by a TE. This is not a playmaker.
Regarding pass rush, there's no need for me to spend time curating your viewing experience on this tape - watch 5 plays anywhere in there and tell me you see anything resembling something besides lame attempts at bullrushes or running fully around someone without any hint of a move, dip, or bend. I will give you one play though. This is what solidifies the Ereck Flowers comparison. See here:
6:33 One, it is such a typical example what to expect from him when rushing the passer; and two, it shows him rushing from a 2-point stance which is where he could at least occasionally be in a Bettcher defense.
Now let's look at another tape. Let's look at his Rutgers tape. ND has fantastic tackles so it would be a fair to raise that the above tape is cherry picking an example when he was going up against great competition. That would be wrong, but it would be fair. Unless you think NFL tackles are worse than ND's.
So here's the tape:
Gary vs. Rutgers
The results speak for themselves:
0:01 First play of game. Puts head down, doesn't see fake, goes in opposite direction of the play.
0:23 Blocked easily by TE. This is a match-up he needs to dominate.
0:41 Gives up half way through his rush. He got confused if he was bull-rushing or making a move.
0:47 Dominated at POA by the LT and washed out.
1:28 Last man to fire out of stance. Handled at POA easily. Play is to other side but he creates no disruption regardless.
1:37 Next play. Last man out of stance again. And again handled easily at POA without creating any disruption.
1:45 Next play. Last man out of stance again. Defeats the whiffed block by OL but immediately freezes and running back goes by for nice gain.
So when considering Gary let's just remember this - he had 3.5 sacks all of last year. And in the last two years he had less than 10 sacks combined. In what world should we select a pass rusher in the top 10 who isn't good at rushing the passer? Players in the top 10 should be making an immediate impact. Gary has potential with his unique HWS, but he doesn't have production and his tape, as we just saw, is bad.
Being a bad top 10 prospect does not itself lend itself to a comparison to Flowers. Being a bust in the top 10 does not either make an automatic Flowers comparison. Rashan Gary is the Ereck Flowers of defensive ends because he has no technique, is sloppy, and relies on his perceived strengths to get by. I won't say he rejects coaching because I have no idea, maybe they're just not teaching anything at Michigan! I mean, I doubt that, but who knows! What we do know is what we see on the tape. And Rashan Gary is not worthy of our #6 pick.
Reese would go with Montez Sweat who has even better measurables.
HE PLAYED WITH A SEPARATED SHOUKDER ALL YEAR WHICH THE DOCTORS TOLD HIM NOT TO PLAY!!!!!!
Comparing him to Ereck flowers who was fat and lazy and don’t give a shit is the worst comparison I ever saw.
Big gap between production and measurables. Not worth #6.
But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.
I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.
But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.
I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.
Oliver was quite productive rushing the passer when he wasn't playing nose.
Nice, welcome to the party. The Rutgers game was after he came back after sitting out a month.
And further, I don't get your point. Is it your point that being injured made him forget (1) basic football IQ, (2) what a pass rush move was, (3) fire out of his stance, (4) use at least one hand in fight with?
Probably should have sat out the season? So you're saying he has horrible judgement then too?
Or maybe your point is that he'll never get injured in the NFL and so we shouldn't be worried if when he gets hurt and he becomes horrible at football.
What would be a great contribution instead of your stupid sarcastic one-liner is if you can find us some 2017 game tape then that shows pass rush moves / football IQ / stack and shed ability. You know, substantiate your point with actual analysis that furthers the conversation.
On second thought, I'll do it for you, here is 2017 tape versus Florida: Gary vs. Florida
And what do we see here? The same exact shit.
0:00 First play of game, is unblocked, completely missed the jet sweep. Like he didn't even know it happened.
1:20 Get easily handled at POA on a pass rush, then completely misses chance for tackle after excellent coverage
2:26 RT blows him up and then because of slow developing play he has a chance but botches the angle and it goes for a touchdown.
2:46 Last man out of stance and handled by TE
So thanks for playing.
HE PLAYED WITH A SEPARATED SHOUKDER ALL YEAR WHICH THE DOCTORS TOLD HIM NOT TO PLAY!!!!!!
Comparing him to Ereck flowers who was fat and lazy and don’t give a shit is the worst comparison I ever saw.
Nice job using all caps. I hear if you just use all caps you don't have to actually have evidence to back up your point of view, people will just believe you. Are you a screamer in real life too?
But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.
I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.
Oliver is on my list of preferences for the pick too. He changes the LOS on every play.
Can you clarify what you mean by UM not using Gary properly? How so?
Further they mention how he "fits" in Betcher's system. I guess players that have a lack of productivity fit in Betcher's system as a number 6 pick? Ugggghh!!
I have little confidence in DG and the HC. Therefore I expect Gary to be taken 1st and Jones to be taken 2nd.
Well if we get either guy can't wait to see how the analytics measures up for gary and the projections of some with Jones. I find it fascinating and fun. Regardless I'll be excited to be watching football.
Appreciate the comment, here's my response:
(1) Tuck and Webster were 3rd and 2nd round picks respectively. The risk is exponentially greater when talking about the #6 pick in the draft.
(2) I provide analysis of the 2017 tape above. It shows the same issues.
(3) As I went out of my way to say in my original analysis, I'm not saying he's a bad prospect. I'm saying he's not the right pick at #6.
Further they mention how he "fits" in Betcher's system. I guess players that have a lack of productivity fit in Betcher's system as a number 6 pick? Ugggghh!!
I have little confidence in DG and the HC. Therefore I expect Gary to be taken 1st and Jones to be taken 2nd.
Well if we get either guy can't wait to see how the analytics measures up for gary and the projections of some with Jones. I find it fascinating and fun. Regardless I'll be excited to be watching football.
Why so little faith? Last year’s draft was the best in a
Looong time. Reese missed year after year and people here still want laud him at times. I’ll be cautiously optimistic. And with the stupidity of
So mAny teams Jones will most likely be gone by 17 allaying one of your fears
This is a shit thread with a shittier analysis.
At some point I hope people realize that Gary should never have played this year but did it cause he wanted to win. Yet Goblue6599, I mean MM won’t admit his year long injury affected his performance.
This is a shit thread with a shittier analysis.
You seem rankled. Are you rankled? This was objective analysis on Gary. Why are you taking this so personally? Seriously. Are you ill?
If you disagree, here's an idea, get some evidence that supports your view and bring it forward. Then we can discuss.
Or you can just scream and make insults.
The problem of course with finding contrary evidence is that you won't find much of it. When someone has a lack of production like this you won't be able to find tape that doesn't exist.
Also, don't forget, I already included his highlight reel. In fact, I started with that.
So come back when you evidence of (1) pass rush moves, (2) football iq, (3) anything resembling a coherent argument.
You don’t understand his job. You didn’t understand his role. For fucks sake you don’t even understand how injured he was. So that’s why your opinion is shitty and not worth another second.
Go find another handle goblue6599.
I think this is your most salient point. I've read an awful lot of write-ups on Gary, watched several videos analyzing his game and his prospects going forward, and almost to a man you get a "buyer beware" vibe, at least when it when it comes to drafting him in the 1st Round (let alone in the top ten).
Q Will,
Oliver/Allen
The Ilbs.
The nose tackles.
Is there a round where Gary has value? Sure. Can he be used? Sure.
You don’t understand his job. You didn’t understand his role. For fucks sake you don’t even understand how injured he was. So that’s why your opinion is shitty and not worth another second.
Go find another handle goblue6599.
Well, I guess I'm not surprised by your response. Clearly my analysis of a football prospect upset you personally. You have screamed, insulted me, and accused my of being someone else. You are a great contributor to this site. Hope you have a good day.
Also, for the record, I have no idea who you're accusing me of being.
Also, for the record, I have no idea
This is the smartest thing you’ve said all thread. Great place to end this.
You posted the same stuff under Goblue6599. Same posting style. Same format. Same hatred for Gary. That username is now banned(which you already know.)
And I suspect this one will be soon too.
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Anymore.
Reese would go with Montez Sweat who has even better measurables.
Reese did hit on a few good players with his first rounders. For as much fault lies with him for the current state of things you can't take that away from him. HWS do matter. His problem was he got too carried away with potential and lost sight of football IQ and LTI.
And even though your headline is something I find ludicrous... I’ll respectfully disagree with your opinion and site the other threads why I believe Gary will be an impactful player.
Again. My apologies.
And even though your headline is something I find ludicrous... I’ll respectfully disagree with your opinion and site the other threads why I believe Gary will be an impactful player.
Again. My apologies.
I respect your apologizing. Thank you.
How do you feel about Bush? I am excited for the prospect of him at 17.
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hard to know about Gary. In a way, he's like Jones in that both were hindered by something beyond their control. With Gary it was his injury, and the fact that Michigan didn't use him correctly. (Houston and Oregon also didn't use Oliver and Jenks correctly either.) With Jones, it was his OL and drops by his receivers.
But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.
I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.
Oliver is on my list of preferences for the pick too. He changes the LOS on every play.
Can you clarify what you mean by UM not using Gary properly? How so?
Dave Te seems to think Giants are not high on Oliver's fit in our defense.
If that's the case I really hope they take Sweat, Burns or White if the top 4 go Murray, Bosa , Quinnen and Allen.
You might think he is over-rated, and I can understand that, but he's going to be drafted within the first ten picks, and maybe the first five. We will wait and see how it plays out. I think his best football is ahead of him. He is a dedicated athlete who will grow, improve and compete.
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In comment 14375907 AcidTest said:
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hard to know about Gary. In a way, he's like Jones in that both were hindered by something beyond their control. With Gary it was his injury, and the fact that Michigan didn't use him correctly. (Houston and Oregon also didn't use Oliver and Jenks correctly either.) With Jones, it was his OL and drops by his receivers.
But Gary only had 9.5 sacks in 34 games, and Jones lacks arm strength.
I won't hate Gary at #6, but would prefer Oliver.
Oliver is on my list of preferences for the pick too. He changes the LOS on every play.
Can you clarify what you mean by UM not using Gary properly? How so?
Dave Te seems to think Giants are not high on Oliver's fit in our defense.
If that's the case I really hope they take Sweat, Burns or White if the top 4 go Murray, Bosa , Quinnen and Allen.
He may not be a great fit. And I can't speak to his attitude which is an unknown for most of us. But I do know that you make room for amazingly talented people and find roles for them - i.e. you coach better.
Regardless I am with you in White. He would be special. I also think Clelin Ferrell will go top higher than people expect and I would not rule him out at 6.
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I wouldn't touch him with either of our first round picks.
How do you feel about Bush? I am excited for the prospect of him at 17.
I would run to the podium for Bush at #17
You might think he is over-rated, and I can understand that, but he's going to be drafted within the first ten picks, and maybe the first five. We will wait and see how it plays out. I think his best football is ahead of him. He is a dedicated athlete who will grow, improve and compete.
The argument I made to compare him to Flowers was lack of technique, sloppy play, and reliance on HWS. The tape I provided also shows that he is not particularly effective at being disruptive.
If you think that is "borderline ridiculous" then use the tape to show how I am wrong and that he has technique, is not sloppy, and does not make whatever plays he does because of reliance HWS. Show me that he learned something from his coaches at Michigan.
I would remind you as well that Flowers went #9. I remind you that not because I think you forgot but instead to raise the point that even seasoned and highly compensated NFL talent evaluators routinely overvalue players with this type of potential, they have for decades, and the mere fact that he may go top 10 does not refute the analysis of the tape I've put forward.
Now the counter-argument to my point is one that I readily admit - he does have talent. He is clearly a top 100 player in this year's draft. His HWS is special and if he can develop that he can be dominant. I'm not disputing that. But the mere fact his technique is this undeveloped raises the risk of his ever attaining the success he could be capable. Why has he never developed basic techniques? Why does he not have any pass rush moves? Why cannot he not stack and shed tight ends eith ease? These points raise his risk level tremendously. It also increases his length-til-impact. And we need immediate impact from our top picks. We simply cannot afford to take on this level of risk nor cannot we wait.
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He is a disrupter. He will collapse the pocket. He needs to learn some pass rush moves, something he clearly didn't get at Michigan. The comparison to Ereck Flowers is borderline ridiculous.
You might think he is over-rated, and I can understand that, but he's going to be drafted within the first ten picks, and maybe the first five. We will wait and see how it plays out. I think his best football is ahead of him. He is a dedicated athlete who will grow, improve and compete.
The argument I made to compare him to Flowers was lack of technique, sloppy play, and reliance on HWS. The tape I provided also shows that he is not particularly effective at being disruptive.
If you think that is "borderline ridiculous" then use the tape to show how I am wrong and that he has technique, is not sloppy, and does not make whatever plays he does because of reliance HWS. Show me that he learned something from his coaches at Michigan.
I would remind you as well that Flowers went #9. I remind you that not because I think you forgot but instead to raise the point that even seasoned and highly compensated NFL talent evaluators routinely overvalue players with this type of potential, they have for decades, and the mere fact that he may go top 10 does not refute the analysis of the tape I've put forward.
Now the counter-argument to my point is one that I readily admit - he does have talent. He is clearly a top 100 player in this year's draft. His HWS is special and if he can develop that he can be dominant. I'm not disputing that. But the mere fact his technique is this undeveloped raises the risk of his ever attaining the success he could be capable. Why has he never developed basic techniques? Why does he not have any pass rush moves? Why cannot he not stack and shed tight ends eith ease? These points raise his risk level tremendously. It also increases his length-til-impact. And we need immediate impact from our top picks. We simply cannot afford to take on this level of risk nor cannot we wait.
Just found more videos that break down his lack of pass rush ability. These are short but excellent.
Gary - ( New Window )
Oliver and Bush in round 1 is ideal. Both would step in and start from day 1 and we need both a 5 Tech and an ILB to play next to Ogletree. Would love a OLB as well.
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The Giants had pretty good success with Justin Tuck and Corey Webster by looking at prior years. But if a guy is hurt and doesn't have good performance and good tape from before the injury, how do you know what he might have been without the injury?
Appreciate the comment, here's my response:
(1) Tuck and Webster were 3rd and 2nd round picks respectively. The risk is exponentially greater when talking about the #6 pick in the draft.
(2) I provide analysis of the 2017 tape above. It shows the same issues.
(3) As I went out of my way to say in my original analysis, I'm not saying he's a bad prospect. I'm saying he's not the right pick at #6.
As for what the tape shows, I can't imagine the Giants' scouts rate it higher than BBIers do. They are looking at the same tape.