2. New York Giants—Draft picks in top 100: 6, 17, 37, 95. Unlikely that GM Dave Gettleman will give the 37th pick for Rosen, in part because of value and in part because the Giants really aren’t sure if all the noise about Rosen being difficult has any merit. But the Giants are an option because coach Pat Shurmur is a play-action devotee and likes his quarterback to throw with timing and rhythm. That’s Rosen’s game. Having Eli Manning for one more season would allow Rosen to learn behind a great preparer and very smart player. So how can the Giants make a deal like this, with no pick between early in the second round and very late in the third round? (I’d be very surprised if Arizona would consider Rosen for the 95th pick.) Well, the Giants could offer a second-round pick in 2020, or try to deal the 17th overall pick in some package that would include high second and third-round picks. But dealing for Rosen could allow the Giants to use three picks in the top 40 this year to do what Gettleman really wants to do: continue to build both lines while addressing the post-Eli QB life.
Link - (
New Window )
You have to take it deeper then "They have a new coach who wants more of a dynamic QB". They kept thee GM who both drafted and hired a Coach who doesn't have any real resume full of success as a head coach even at the college level.
So why would the GM who traded picks to move up to get Rosen decide that he would hire a coach who runs a different style. You're basically taking about a 10M cost and 2 high draft picks wasted to get a guy you're dumping a year later because you choose a coach who runs a different style of Offense. That screams "red flag".
The "red flag" is Keim himself. Perhaps, it doesn't get the media attention that the Giants would receive. But if Dave had driven drunk (not just the run-of-the-mill DUI, but Extreme DUI), I would think his ability to retain being the GM for the Giants would be in jeopardy. I suspect Keim was put on notice.
I look at the turmoil with the Cards as Keim's Hail Mary. By jettisoning the coaching staff, he has built in the first excuse to prolong his career. If the staff had remained and they continued to be a dumpster fire, then Keim along with the coaches would be sent packing. With the new boy wonder, a first time HC won't have high expectations. If they can show improvement, then ownership will keep the status quo.
Now, the decision to draft Kyler/trade Josh would bolster their success and prolong both of their careers. Kliff is a system coach who has never had a winning record. The decision to hire him in the first-place is suspect. But with Kliff hired, what better way to ensure his system is successful than to draft what Kliff thinks is the perfect prospect to run his system?
I really believe the decision makers in the desert are not necessarily making the decisions for the best of the franchise, but for their own short-term interests. It is a huge gamble. If it works, Keim and Kliff will look like geniuses. If not, then they both will be fired. The result being no different if Kliff was forced to make his system work with Josh.
p.s.-- Maybe add Lauletta to the package as well if there's interest from the Cardinals. His mobility may mesh with what Kingsbury is trying to build around Murray.
p.s.-- Maybe add Lauletta to the package as well if there's interest from the Cardinals. His mobility may mesh with what Kingsbury is trying to build around Murray.
The alleged offer from.the Redskins is already better than your proposal. Giants would need to pony up their 2nd round picks this year and next just to match it. You know how to use a draft value chart.
Quote:
The 37th pick (early 2nd round), the 142nd pick (early 5th round) and next year's 3rd round pick (likely to be in the 90's, only a couple of slots before the comp pick they get for Collins) that would be a steal.
p.s.-- Maybe add Lauletta to the package as well if there's interest from the Cardinals. His mobility may mesh with what Kingsbury is trying to build around Murray.
The alleged offer from.the Redskins is already better than your proposal. Giants would need to pony up their 2nd round picks this year and next just to match it.
The rumored offer from the Redskins doesn't ring true to me. If there's any truth at all to it I suspect the offer includes either a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2020, but not both (i.e., a conditional 3rd round pick that could improve to a 2nd round pick if Rosen starts x number of games for the Skins).
p.s.--I wouldn't get too attached to the specifics of rumored offers. There's always an agenda.
For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.
Made up narrative.
Quote:
Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.
For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.
Made up narrative.
For the Giants' sake I hope it isn't, because if it is indeed a made up narrative then they just look pretty foolish.
Quote:
In comment 14377310 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.
For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.
Made up narrative.
For the Giants' sake I hope it isn't, because if it is indeed a made up narrative then they just look pretty foolish.
IMO it was made up only to justify the stupid decisions this regime has made and continues to make. Humans love to justify things they don’t understand and in this case it is raw stupidity.
We have draft resources to spend on getting good players and they should grab Rosen, who is not only an immediate upgrade but can be had at a discount on his rookie contract. I would even support giving up the #17, though I bet they could put fewer resources into it.
If the Giants don't like Rosen, that is what it is, but trying to avoid a controversy is a truly alarming thing.
We have draft resources to spend on getting good players and they should grab Rosen, who is not only an immediate upgrade but can be had at a discount on his rookie contract. I would even support giving up the #17, though I bet they could put fewer resources into it.
If the Giants don't like Rosen, that is what it is, but trying to avoid a controversy is a truly alarming thing.
Who said that they are trying to avoid controversy? Someone throws that shit out there and people run with it as fact. They have virtually zero idea what the Giants’ mindset is. Yeah, DG gives a flying fuck what people really think.
Oh, good morning DQ
Quote:
We are currently paying top dollar for a middle of the road QB, and losing.
We have draft resources to spend on getting good players and they should grab Rosen, who is not only an immediate upgrade but can be had at a discount on his rookie contract. I would even support giving up the #17, though I bet they could put fewer resources into it.
If the Giants don't like Rosen, that is what it is, but trying to avoid a controversy is a truly alarming thing.
Who said that they are trying to avoid controversy? Someone throws that shit out there and people run with it as fact. They have virtually zero idea what the Giants’ mindset is. Yeah, DG gives a flying fuck what people really think.
Oh, good morning DQ
Our resident insider JT said they do not want a QB controversy as part of the reasoning to pass on Rosen.
Or one of the Asshats made that claim.
So please stop with this CERTAINTY
So please stop with this CERTAINTY
He said Eli was promised the starting job until eliminated and they don't want to deal with a QB controversy while that is going on..
He is the insider you can believe him or not. But its not being presented as opinion, its being presented as an insiders understanding of the ORGs thinking at this point.
Quote:
don’t want a controversy. Someone may have opined this, but I am certain DG and Mara and even Tisch said nothing of the sort to him or anyone else. And I love jt. He’s been my bbi buddy for many years.
So please stop with this CERTAINTY
He said Eli was promised the starting job until eliminated and they don't want to deal with a QB controversy while that is going on..
He is the insider you can believe him or not. But its not being presented as opinion, its being presented as an insiders understanding of the ORGs thinking at this point.
He’s still a fan, not a person with direct knowledge of this. Many of us have speculated that about Eli, yet we have zero proof of this.
Regardless, silly to debate this. We both can believe what we care to, but we need to be careful to take this as even reasonable gospel, imo
His track record backs up his claims.
I believe Francessa pushed DG on the promise to Eli to start. So its not just here that is getting floated around.
Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.
I think its a no brainer too but I also think the Redskins will do whatever they can to take him before we do...
Eli at $23M is a miserable allocation of cap space. The Giants haven't shown any interest in alleviating that issue. That's the long and short of it.
Quote:
One of the biggest perks of getting Rosen is the contract. Starting this season, 3 years at about $2M a year. That is a massive competitive advantage. But why waste a year of that with him on the bench? Not just that, but it risks turning the season into a QB controversy circus. Eli's presence is a huge confounder, which is why I advocated cutting him all offseason. But cutting Eli clearly isn't going to happen, so I'd rather start the clock on the next QB a year from now.
A starting QB on a rookie deal is the biggest competitive advantage you can have under the current CBA. The Giants have eschewed that advantage two years in a row now, which is frustrating...but here we are.
I hear you, and agree in principle.
But you sort of sidestepped my question. Is it better to have Rosen here for on less season on the field than not at all? Again, you know me, I would have cut Eli last year (hell, after the 2014 season I would have traded him, but that's a different ball of wax). But I am torn between at least having Rosen here versus not.
I have the worst feeling all of this is going to be a moot point anyway. I fully expect some announcement over the summer that Eli has been extended and can has been kicked even further down the road...
Eli is not keeping his job because of his talent, he keeps his job because of sentiment and loyalty and not because of his play, one more thing that keeps Eli's job is the fact that management has done a very poor job of replacing him..
Eli is not keeping his job because of his talent, he keeps his job because of sentiment and loyalty and not because of his play, one more thing that keeps Eli's job is the fact that management has done a very poor job of replacing him..
I think this is largely true. And have made a similar argument the last two years.
So please stop with this CERTAINTY
How do you know with certainty that DG, Mara or Tisch have never said they don't want to deal with a QB controversy by bringing in someone like Rosen?
Frankly, I'd be stunned if something like this wasn't considered. I can't think of a team that enjoys a QB controversy. Can you?
Quote:
don’t want a controversy. Someone may have opined this, but I am certain DG and Mara and even Tisch said nothing of the sort to him or anyone else. And I love jt. He’s been my bbi buddy for many years.
So please stop with this CERTAINTY
How do you know with certainty that DG, Mara or Tisch have never said they don't want to deal with a QB controversy by bringing in someone like Rosen?
Frankly, I'd be stunned if something like this wasn't considered. I can't think of a team that enjoys a QB controversy. Can you?
I don’t, neither does anyone else other than DH andMara
If you make a ridiculous claim based on nothing but internet gossip then the burden of proof is on you to back up the stupid claim. It's not on us to prove that it's false.
Quote:
How do you know with certainty that DG, Mara or Tisch have never said they don't want to deal with a QB controversy by bringing in someone like Rosen?
If you make a ridiculous claim based on nothing but internet gossip then the burden of proof is on you to back up the stupid claim. It's not on us to prove that it's false.
I made a claim based on a source that has been deemed dependable here at BBI.
So if you don't think jt is a reliable source, and he is making ridiculous claims, then perhaps you need to have a conversation with the moderators, not me.
Furthermore, I don't think it actually takes an insider to conclude that the Giants may not want Rosen because it could cause a QB controversy. That's really just plain old common sense.
Finally, I made my comment back to BB'56 because he suggested that using the word "certain" was an issue. Yet, he uses the word to make a point about what he thinks the front office is thinking. Seemed a bit ironical to me...
Ian Rapoport
✔
@RapSheet
· Apr 8, 2019
The #AZCardinals offseason conditioning program begins today, and not only is QB Josh Rosen in the building… he was the first guy in the building for new coach Kliff Kingsbury.
Markus Golden
✔
@markusgolden
He was the first in the building as a rookie to! Great Guy and player!
620
12:13 PM - Apr 8, 2019
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 14378881 bw in dc said:
Quote:
How do you know with certainty that DG, Mara or Tisch have never said they don't want to deal with a QB controversy by bringing in someone like Rosen?
If you make a ridiculous claim based on nothing but internet gossip then the burden of proof is on you to back up the stupid claim. It's not on us to prove that it's false.
I made a claim based on a source that has been deemed dependable here at BBI.
So if you don't think jt is a reliable source, and he is making ridiculous claims, then perhaps you need to have a conversation with the moderators, not me.
Furthermore, I don't think it actually takes an insider to conclude that the Giants may not want Rosen because it could cause a QB controversy. That's really just plain old common sense.
Finally, I made my comment back to BB'56 because he suggested that using the word "certain" was an issue. Yet, he uses the word to make a point about what he thinks the front office is thinking. Seemed a bit ironical to me...
Why is it difficult to believe that they may not want (or at least at the price required) Rosen simply based on Rosen?
It isn't. And if that's the case it's fair to question the Giants' ability to judge quarterbacks.
Why is it difficult to believe that they may not want (or at least at the price required) Rosen simply based on Rosen?
I agree. It isn't difficult to believe that.
In fact, it's fairly easy to see this group of old men decision makers being turned off by a millenial who speaks his mind. God forbid they accept his personality and manage it. And then try to get the most out the more important part - Rosen's talent.
The medical is a legitimate concern.
How do you want Rosen to prove his commitment to the game? Polygraph?
It's fair to question them when they're opting for paying 38 year old Eli $23M instead of paying 22 year old Rosen $2M.
The commitment to Rosen would be minimal - trading for him this offseason wouldn't have prevented us from drafting a QB next year or even in this upcoming draft.
It's not that easy to do, especially given the locker room and culture this team has at present, with a head coach that you and I probably are of similar opinion about.
The Patriots, they can pull that idea off. As can one or two other teams in the league.
But The New York Giants right now, can't. I don't agree with keeping Eli as the Starter and paying him $23 million this year to be .500 or so QB.
But I also don't think the answer or an answer should be trading away draft picks for a QB that has the red flags that Rosen has.
Is he a perfect solution? No, but he is preferable to what we're actually doing.
I also don't buy any arguments related to the locker room and culture. I haven't read a single negative thing regarding Rosen's work ethic. And again, if he's a mess we can always move on from him in a year.
Conversely, what about the potential impact of Eli on the locker room culture? Many of the players in that room are 13-15 years younger than Eli is. Some may be looking at him and saying, "He isn't getting the job done, but he's the owner's boy and is on scholarship this year." They don't give a shit about 2011...they were probably in high school at the time.
In summary, bringing in Rosen wouldn't have been about the next 5 years. It'd have been about 2019, with an easy out in the event things went sideways.
But Eli's presence is clouding the front office's ability to think clearly and critically.
The best answer for the team right now would be draft a lineman at #6 (my preference is Taylor but YMMV) and continue building the team outside of the QB position and hope they can stockpile enough draft picks to trade up until the top 2-3 like the Eagles did.
This offseason should have started with Eli being released shortly after the end of the 2018 season. That would have allowed the front office to go into this offseason with greater clarity than that with which they're working now.
This off-season is DG trying to service two agendas, 1)rebuild the team and 2)Compete for the playoffs.
As I said before he's going to fail because he can't do both at the same time. Just hope that Abrams, his successor, has been paying attention and learns something.
This off-season is DG trying to service two agendas, 1)rebuild the team and 2)Compete for the playoffs.
As I said before he's going to fail because he can't do both at the same time. Just hope that Abrams, his successor, has been paying attention and learns something.
I find it very unlikely that Abrams will be Gettleman's successor. I think it'll be Chris Pettit if Gettleman ultimately leaves/retires on good terms and gets to advise on his own successor. Conversely, it will probably be someone from outside the EA/JR/DG lineage if Gettleman's fate comes by way of termination, IMO. I think the franchise sees Abrams strictly as a cap guy, not a talent acquisition guy.
That said, your point is well taken with regard to Gettleman's attempt to make two competing goals work simultaneously.
It's been repeatedly reported that Abrams is being groomed as next GM. They are taking him scouting trips, etc.
If you know anything about how Mara does business you'll understand that it's far more likely than not that Abrams will be the next GM. The fact that they are grooming a glorified accountant to become the next GM should tell you everything you need to know about the direction of this franchise.
Abrams began his career working as an intern for Ohio University football program, the Buffalo Bills, the Washington Redskins, and the London Monarchs.[1]
NFL
Abrams began his career in the NFL working for the NFL Management Council as a salary cap analyst analyzing NFL player contracts. In July 1999, following his work with the NFL Management Council, Abrams was hired by the New York Giants as a salary cap analyst, a newly created position by the team. In 2002 Abrams was promoted to Assistant General Manager working under GM Ernie Accorsi.[2] During the 2017 NFL season, Abrams worked as the Interim General Manager due to the firing of his boss, GM Jerry Reese.[3] Abrams was interviewed for the Giants GM position, however, he was beat out by former Carolina Panthers General Manager and former longtime Giants employee, Dave Gettleman.[4][5]
FYI he's already interviewed for the position once.
Quote:
say something to the effect that Kevin Abrams was being groomed for the GM spot?
It's been repeatedly reported that Abrams is being groomed as next GM. They are taking him scouting trips, etc.
If you know anything about how Mara does business you'll understand that it's far more likely than not that Abrams will be the next GM. The fact that they are grooming a glorified accountant to become the next GM should tell you everything you need to know about the direction of this franchise.
Abrams is low-hanging fruit for reporters projecting a Gettleman heir apparent waiting in the wings. And for the most part, the Giants' history would tell any reasonable observer that Abrams will absolutely be a serious candidate when that time comes. But for some reason, I think that Pettit is Gettleman's own chosen protégé, and that if Gettleman ultimately gets to name his own successor, it'll be Pettit rather than Abrams.
It's not like Pettit doesn't fit the same mold as Abrams with regard to paying his dues working his way up within the organization. And if you pay attention to how Gettleman tends to look favorably upon "his" guys, he and Pettit go all the way back to 1998, when Pettit interned under DG.
The smart money is probably on Abrams when that time eventually comes, but I'll stake my bet on the slightly longer shot in Pettit.
It's been repeatedly reported that Abrams is being groomed as next GM. They are taking him scouting trips, etc.
If you know anything about how Mara does business you'll understand that it's far more likely than not that Abrams will be the next GM. The fact that they are grooming a glorified accountant to become the next GM should tell you everything you need to know about the direction of this franchise.
So true. Mara is very fond of his GM and Associates “tree”.
He’ll do anything to keep the “Giants Way” in perpetuity. Everyone is conditioned to stay in the box...
Quote:
It's been repeatedly reported that Abrams is being groomed as next GM. They are taking him scouting trips, etc.
If you know anything about how Mara does business you'll understand that it's far more likely than not that Abrams will be the next GM. The fact that they are grooming a glorified accountant to become the next GM should tell you everything you need to know about the direction of this franchise.
So true. Mara is very fond of his GM and Associates “tree”.
He’ll do anything to keep the “Giants Way” in perpetuity. Everyone is conditioned to stay in the box...
Sounds like another tick like Reese, ugh. Give me some old fart with experience in several orgs and a bad toupee like Accorsi.
Is he a perfect solution? No, but he is preferable to what we're actually doing.
I also don't buy any arguments related to the locker room and culture. I haven't read a single negative thing regarding Rosen's work ethic. And again, if he's a mess we can always move on from him in a year.
Conversely, what about the potential impact of Eli on the locker room culture? Many of the players in that room are 13-15 years younger than Eli is. Some may be looking at him and saying, "He isn't getting the job done, but he's the owner's boy and is on scholarship this year." They don't give a shit about 2011...they were probably in high school at the time.
In summary, bringing in Rosen wouldn't have been about the next 5 years. It'd have been about 2019, with an easy out in the event things went sideways.
But Eli's presence is clouding the front office's ability to think clearly and critically.