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Peter King: Giants not sold on Rosen

DanMetroMan : 4/8/2019 12:54 pm
2. New York Giants—Draft picks in top 100: 6, 17, 37, 95. Unlikely that GM Dave Gettleman will give the 37th pick for Rosen, in part because of value and in part because the Giants really aren’t sure if all the noise about Rosen being difficult has any merit. But the Giants are an option because coach Pat Shurmur is a play-action devotee and likes his quarterback to throw with timing and rhythm. That’s Rosen’s game. Having Eli Manning for one more season would allow Rosen to learn behind a great preparer and very smart player. So how can the Giants make a deal like this, with no pick between early in the second round and very late in the third round? (I’d be very surprised if Arizona would consider Rosen for the 95th pick.) Well, the Giants could offer a second-round pick in 2020, or try to deal the 17th overall pick in some package that would include high second and third-round picks. But dealing for Rosen could allow the Giants to use three picks in the top 40 this year to do what Gettleman really wants to do: continue to build both lines while addressing the post-Eli QB life.
Link - ( New Window )
good  
GMAN4LIFE : 4/8/2019 12:54 pm : link
.
This has been obvious  
Giantz_comeback : 4/8/2019 12:54 pm : link
For a while.
DG, Mara or Shurmur,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/8/2019 12:56 pm : link
are not going to tell Peter King squat
TV safe  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/8/2019 1:00 pm : link
From remote.
Trading the 2nd  
cokeduplt : 4/8/2019 1:00 pm : link
For Rosen is the smartest thing the Giants can do imo. I’m reamsigned to the fact that they won’t do it though. I just hope they don’t pick Jones instead, he is no where near as good as Rosen
Key point  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 1:01 pm : link
Quote:
But the Giants are an option because coach Pat Shurmur is a play-action devotee and likes his quarterback to throw with timing and rhythm.


This is why Rosen should be a trade target, and why Daniel Jones is a real possibility in the draft.
If we're going to eliminate players....  
Tesla : 4/8/2019 1:02 pm : link
who might possibly provide any type of "distractions" to the team going forward, we are really going to limit the pool of available players to us.

Is there any evidence that Rosen created even a single "distraction" during his first year in Arizona?
RE: Trading the 2nd  
TommyWiseau : 4/8/2019 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14377122 cokeduplt said:
Quote:
For Rosen is the smartest thing the Giants can do imo. I’m reamsigned to the fact that they won’t do it though. I just hope they don’t pick Jones instead, he is no where near as good as Rosen


Problem is they want more then just our 2nd round pick
I'm more and more convinced...  
bw in dc : 4/8/2019 1:03 pm : link
this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.
RE: DG, Mara or Shurmur,  
BlueLou'sBack : 4/8/2019 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14377110 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
are not going to tell Peter King squat


Neither King nor anyone on BBI with a different POV!

lulz
It's Unlikely to rain today  
ZogZerg : 4/8/2019 1:04 pm : link
But, you should bring a rain coat because the conditions are right for there to be rain......

These "articles" are so silly.
Its all noise  
superspynyg : 4/8/2019 1:04 pm : link
No one but Dave Gettleman and his select few know what DG thinks about Rosen.

Its all noise and speculation.
Credit where credit is due  
kelsto811 : 4/8/2019 1:05 pm : link
Jtgiants said this weeks ago
I've been a supporter of trading for Rosen,  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 1:05 pm : link
but that was before Eli got his bonus and it became certain that he was the QB in 2019. Trading for Rosen to sit him behind Eli for a year makes no sense; neither does drafting a QB to sit behind Eli.

If Eli's gonna be the guy, use your picks to surround him with as much playing talent as possible. Don't waste a year of a rookie QB deal on the bench.

Shurmur was hired because he's supposed to be a QB whisperer. So coach up Lauletta as Eli's backup. If the 2019 season goes sideways then get Lauletta some starts and have him compete with a drafted rookie on the QB depth chart in 2020.
the way I read the tea leaves  
fkap : 4/8/2019 1:07 pm : link
is that the Giants might take a flier on him for average third round value. The rumor mill says other teams have already offered deals that surpassed that value.

Giants interest tepid.
Most of that blurb  
Mr. Bungle : 4/8/2019 1:07 pm : link
is about how the Giants could get a Rosen deal done.

...After saying that the Giants "aren't sold" on Rosen.

Pick a side, King.
It is just plain dumb  
jtdukedfw : 4/8/2019 1:09 pm : link
to select Lock at 6 because you don't like Rosen like King is suggesting. There isnt a single scout out there that thinks Lock is better than Rosen. How as a Giant fan can you not think Rosen plus the 6th pick would not be better than Lock plus pick 37 (assuming this would be the trade for Rosen).
RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
cokeduplt : 4/8/2019 1:12 pm : link
In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:
Quote:
this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.


It’s very troublesome. I can’t think of 1 good reason not to do it
RE: It is just plain dumb  
cokeduplt : 4/8/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14377147 jtdukedfw said:
Quote:
to select Lock at 6 because you don't like Rosen like King is suggesting. There isnt a single scout out there that thinks Lock is better than Rosen. How as a Giant fan can you not think Rosen plus the 6th pick would not be better than Lock plus pick 37 (assuming this would be the trade for Rosen).



100% this
RE: DG, Mara or Shurmur,  
Mike from Ohio : 4/8/2019 1:14 pm : link
In comment 14377110 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
are not going to tell Peter King squat


They don't have to tell him squat. As we can see on BBI, the Giants thinking on certain things does become public. Witness jtgiants and JonC.

I think it is safe to assume King may have sources close to the Giants since he was a beat writer years ago and there are clearly people with some knowledge of the inner workings who talk.
they may not like Rosen  
Dave on the UWS : 4/8/2019 1:15 pm : link
(if these are the reasons they are stupid as hell), but King is a hack and he makes up stuff for clicks. Ignore him.
only way im thinking of trading our 2nd for Rosen  
BigBlue2112 : 4/8/2019 1:16 pm : link
is if i'm getting their 3rd or 4th back
RE: RE: DG, Mara or Shurmur,  
Danny Kanell : 4/8/2019 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14377157 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 14377110 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


are not going to tell Peter King squat



They don't have to tell him squat. As we can see on BBI, the Giants thinking on certain things does become public. Witness jtgiants and JonC.

I think it is safe to assume King may have sources close to the Giants since he was a beat writer years ago and there are clearly people with some knowledge of the inner workings who talk.


King's source is probably JTGiants posts on BBI.
RE: It is just plain dumb  
kelsto811 : 4/8/2019 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14377147 jtdukedfw said:
Quote:
to select Lock at 6 because you don't like Rosen like King is suggesting. There isnt a single scout out there that thinks Lock is better than Rosen. How as a Giant fan can you not think Rosen plus the 6th pick would not be better than Lock plus pick 37 (assuming this would be the trade for Rosen).


Maybe right now Lock is not considered better than Rosen but there's other things that come into play. Who is the better QB if they reach their max potential? What if there's any truth at all to the talk about Rosen's drive, injury concerns, likeability in locker room, etc.

I've wanted Rosen since last April and still would love for him to come here, but if for whatever reason the Giants aren't sold on him to the point that they won't even offer a 2nd, then it is what it is. If they think he's a future franchise QB then they shouldn't be hesitating to offer a 2nd round pick...since that seems to be the case, I'm gonna guess they don't think he can be that guy. I truly hope that the reason isn't because it could create a QB controversy in 2019
RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
Chris in Philly : 4/8/2019 1:31 pm : link
In comment 14377151 cokeduplt said:
Quote:
In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:


Quote:


this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.



It’s very troublesome. I can’t think of 1 good reason not to do it


You can't think of one single reason not to trade valuable draft assets for a guy about whom character rumors swirl that was drafted as a franchise QB one year ago and that team already wants to ditch him and went out of its way to hire a coach who openly favors another QB? You really can't think of one reason, huh?
RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
bw in dc : 4/8/2019 1:38 pm : link
In comment 14377192 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:



You can't think of one single reason not to trade valuable draft assets for a guy about whom character rumors swirl that was drafted as a franchise QB one year ago and that team already wants to ditch him and went out of its way to hire a coach who openly favors another QB? You really can't think of one reason, huh?


I can think of reasons. But they’re not good ones.

RE: RE: It is just plain dumb  
jtdukedfw : 4/8/2019 1:38 pm : link
I just keep hearing that the Giants don't like him and I cannot justify the reasons. I will give you the injury point but anyone can get hurt at any point in time and the questioning of his drive the guy got hit a lot last year but kept dusting himself off and kept playing. To the "likability" point I could not find an article anywhere after the draft that put Rosen in a bad light. My question is value added I am fine if they dont get Rosen but one of those QBs at 6 or 17 is just not worth the value that you would get with Rosen and drafting defense or oline 6th and 17th

In comment 14377181 kelsto811 said:
Quote:
In comment 14377147 jtdukedfw said:


Quote:


to select Lock at 6 because you don't like Rosen like King is suggesting. There isnt a single scout out there that thinks Lock is better than Rosen. How as a Giant fan can you not think Rosen plus the 6th pick would not be better than Lock plus pick 37 (assuming this would be the trade for Rosen).



Maybe right now Lock is not considered better than Rosen but there's other things that come into play. Who is the better QB if they reach their max potential? What if there's any truth at all to the talk about Rosen's drive, injury concerns, likeability in locker room, etc.

I've wanted Rosen since last April and still would love for him to come here, but if for whatever reason the Giants aren't sold on him to the point that they won't even offer a 2nd, then it is what it is. If they think he's a future franchise QB then they shouldn't be hesitating to offer a 2nd round pick...since that seems to be the case, I'm gonna guess they don't think he can be that guy. I truly hope that the reason isn't because it could create a QB controversy in 2019
RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
FrankieR : 4/8/2019 1:38 pm : link
In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:
Quote:
this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.


Curious as to why. This is the second real chance theyve had to do so. Last year they chose the best player in the entire draft over the 2nd most sought after QB. Tjere is a good chance that they take one this year. As long as it is not at 6, it is good value.

This is the unwarranted negativity I was asking about last night. Some of you are too focused on years prior to our new GM taking over.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
Chris in Philly : 4/8/2019 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14377203 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14377192 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:





You can't think of one single reason not to trade valuable draft assets for a guy about whom character rumors swirl that was drafted as a franchise QB one year ago and that team already wants to ditch him and went out of its way to hire a coach who openly favors another QB? You really can't think of one reason, huh?



I can think of reasons. But they’re not good ones.


So ditching a player that was drafted as the face of the franchise and the most important position in sports after a single year gives you zero pause? I mean, I know you have your role to play here, but that really does not enter your calculus as to whether or not there is no downside?
RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
FrankieR : 4/8/2019 1:44 pm : link
In comment 14377192 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 14377151 cokeduplt said:


Quote:


In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:


Quote:


this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.



It’s very troublesome. I can’t think of 1 good reason not to do it



You can't think of one single reason not to trade valuable draft assets for a guy about whom character rumors swirl that was drafted as a franchise QB one year ago and that team already wants to ditch him and went out of its way to hire a coach who openly favors another QB? You really can't think of one reason, huh?


Excellent point Chris! Love your past work btw!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
bw in dc : 4/8/2019 1:53 pm : link
In comment 14377221 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:

So ditching a player that was drafted as the face of the franchise and the most important position in sports after a single year gives you zero pause? I mean, I know you have your role to play here, but that really does not enter your calculus as to whether or not there is no downside?


It's the Cardinals. I wouldn't say they have a rich history of great decision making.

Moreover, they have a new coach who obviously wants a more dynamic QB play maker. A player who can keep plays alive. And with that OL, Rosen is not that caliber of player.

Look, I liked Rosen last year, but was very concerned about his medical history. I was very impressed with the way he stood his ground last year and kept popping-up despite being a clay pigeon for most defenses.

The most critical thing here is that this is a cap winner all the way around. If Rosen hits, it's cap xanadu. If not, we cut him and the cap hit is almost negligible.
When did DG call Peter King...  
EricJ : 4/8/2019 1:57 pm : link
to let him know what he thinks... about anything?
Been saying from day one  
BleedBlue : 4/8/2019 2:09 pm : link
#95 and a 2020 3.

Would do #95 and a 2020 2 if needed.
bw  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 2:14 pm : link
Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.

For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
cokeduplt : 4/8/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14377203 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14377192 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:





You can't think of one single reason not to trade valuable draft assets for a guy about whom character rumors swirl that was drafted as a franchise QB one year ago and that team already wants to ditch him and went out of its way to hire a coach who openly favors another QB? You really can't think of one reason, huh?



I can think of reasons. But they’re not good ones.


Yea no good reasons just bs speculation
I wish  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/8/2019 2:17 pm : link
we REALLY knew what the team felt about Rosen a year ago.
RE: RE: RE: DG, Mara or Shurmur,  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/8/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14377170 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 14377157 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


In comment 14377110 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


are not going to tell Peter King squat



They don't have to tell him squat. As we can see on BBI, the Giants thinking on certain things does become public. Witness jtgiants and JonC.

I think it is safe to assume King may have sources close to the Giants since he was a beat writer years ago and there are clearly people with some knowledge of the inner workings who talk.



King's source is probably JTGiants posts on BBI.

Yes, the guy who has won national sportswriter of the year three times is sourcing BBI for his articles.
RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
DavidinBMNY : 4/8/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14377151 cokeduplt said:
Quote:
In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:


Quote:


this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.



It’s very troublesome. I can’t think of 1 good reason not to do it


I trust them more then I trust us or BBI pundits.
There is more to Quarterbacking  
gmen9892 : 4/8/2019 2:20 pm : link
Then whatever you see on the field. Rosen might be the better prospect by most metrics (I think Lock has a slightly better arm and is more mobile), but that's not the only thing that counts. Actually far from it.

What a QB does off the field and behind the scenes counts. Their personality on and off the field counts. Their leadership qualities count. How does the player interview?

You are handing the keys to your organization to this next QB. If that guy doesn't check every box you are looking for, you do not force the trade/pick.

From what I have gathered about DG and PS in the 2 years they have been here now is, Rosen might not be a fit for them personality-wise. For all those that have read the Rodgers/McCarthy article that came out last week, you can't tell me there is 0 doubt that Rosen could be a Rodgers clone from a personality standpoint.
bw, terps  
BigBlueCane : 4/8/2019 2:21 pm : link
it seems very likely that beyond just the Cap dollars, the team does not like Rosen for his off the field issues.

Whether or not, we like that or not, it's another condition that must be factored in and accounted for.
RE: bw  
DavidinBMNY : 4/8/2019 2:21 pm : link
In comment 14377310 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.

For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.
I disagree. They've done it before although the circumstances were different with Warner who wasn't a lifetime loyal Giant.
David  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 2:23 pm : link
That was in Eli's rookie year. I don't think that really applies to today.
RE: bw  
bw in dc : 4/8/2019 2:25 pm : link
In comment 14377310 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.

For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.


I have thought that, too. Eli being out makes the equation cleaner and easier.

But I also think about - even if we have to deal with one more leg of the Eli Farewell Tour, wouldn't you rather have Rosen a year later versus not at all this year?
Ahh, the daily Rosen trade thread  
eric2425ny : 4/8/2019 2:29 pm : link
Lol. I can’t wait for the draft to get here. At this point I am more or less indifferent to whether we trade for him or not. I’ll trust DG to make the right call one way or another.
RE: I wish  
cokeduplt : 4/8/2019 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14377317 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
we REALLY knew what the team felt about Rosen a year ago.


Agreed.
bw  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 2:34 pm : link
One of the biggest perks of getting Rosen is the contract. Starting this season, 3 years at about $2M a year. That is a massive competitive advantage. But why waste a year of that with him on the bench? Not just that, but it risks turning the season into a QB controversy circus. Eli's presence is a huge confounder, which is why I advocated cutting him all offseason. But cutting Eli clearly isn't going to happen, so I'd rather start the clock on the next QB a year from now.

A starting QB on a rookie deal is the biggest competitive advantage you can have under the current CBA. The Giants have eschewed that advantage two years in a row now, which is frustrating...but here we are.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 4/8/2019 2:36 pm : link
In comment 14377221 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 14377203 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14377192 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:





You can't think of one single reason not to trade valuable draft assets for a guy about whom character rumors swirl that was drafted as a franchise QB one year ago and that team already wants to ditch him and went out of its way to hire a coach who openly favors another QB? You really can't think of one reason, huh?



I can think of reasons. But they’re not good ones.




So ditching a player that was drafted as the face of the franchise and the most important position in sports after a single year gives you zero pause? I mean, I know you have your role to play here, but that really does not enter your calculus as to whether or not there is no downside?


The reason has been made clear. I don't get the confusion. Kingsbury has lusted after Kyler Murray since he was in the 8th grade. KK believes Murray is the perfect fit for his offensive system. As a result, Rosen becomes expendable. Show me a reputable article that describes Rosen as problematic or anything but professional. Put Rosen with a decent OL and a couple of quality receivers and he will thrill us. If he goes to Washington, he will haunt us.
Well one of the ways I see it is  
Giant John : 4/8/2019 2:39 pm : link
If AZ is giving up on the guy so quickly why would we want to pay top dollar?
Just dumb.
RE: bw  
Bill L : 4/8/2019 2:43 pm : link
In comment 14377310 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.

For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.

How manufactured a premise is that.

They don't want Rosen. Nothing to do with Eli. They wanted Barkley; again nothing to do with Eli. The world turns for many reasons.
RE: Well one of the ways I see it is  
BleedBlue : 4/8/2019 2:43 pm : link
In comment 14377368 Giant John said:
Quote:
If AZ is giving up on the guy so quickly why would we want to pay top dollar?
Just dumb.


They aren't "giving up" on him...they have a new coach and found a guy who better fits their scheme....people having a hard time with this for some reason
Good, I’m glad the GiNts  
tyrik13 : 4/8/2019 2:51 pm : link
Aren’t going to give and try and trade for Rosen. Imo he’s overhyped and a walking injury waiting to happen.
Bill L  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 2:53 pm : link
It's one of two things:

1. The Giants' decision making regarding Eli is influenced by more than simply what is happening on the field; or

2. The Giants are fundamentally inept in self scouting and/or scouting quarterbacks.

It has to be one of those two things, because paying Eli $23M when they could have cut him and saved $17M is an indefensible position.
RE: bw  
FranchiseQB : 4/8/2019 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14377355 Go Terps said:
Quote:
One of the biggest perks of getting Rosen is the contract. Starting this season, 3 years at about $2M a year. That is a massive competitive advantage. But why waste a year of that with him on the bench? Not just that, but it risks turning the season into a QB controversy circus. Eli's presence is a huge confounder, which is why I advocated cutting him all offseason. But cutting Eli clearly isn't going to happen, so I'd rather start the clock on the next QB a year from now.

A starting QB on a rookie deal is the biggest competitive advantage you can have under the current CBA. The Giants have eschewed that advantage two years in a row now, which is frustrating...but here we are.


i heard there is a qb who is a hs sophomore in pennsylvania that is supposed to be amazing, maybe we should start the qb clock in 2027. There is also a kid in Alabama peewees that looks sharp. I don't mind waiting until 2032.
Their decision making with regard to Eli  
Bill L : 4/8/2019 2:56 pm : link
is in no way impacting whether or not they trader for Rosen and it in no way impacted their decision to draft Barkley. That's a false premise.

Whether or not their decision on keeping or paying (or not) Eli is impacted by their view of Eli, then I'll agree to that.
RE: RE: bw  
Bill L : 4/8/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14377411 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14377355 Go Terps said:


Quote:


One of the biggest perks of getting Rosen is the contract. Starting this season, 3 years at about $2M a year. That is a massive competitive advantage. But why waste a year of that with him on the bench? Not just that, but it risks turning the season into a QB controversy circus. Eli's presence is a huge confounder, which is why I advocated cutting him all offseason. But cutting Eli clearly isn't going to happen, so I'd rather start the clock on the next QB a year from now.

A starting QB on a rookie deal is the biggest competitive advantage you can have under the current CBA. The Giants have eschewed that advantage two years in a row now, which is frustrating...but here we are.



i heard there is a qb who is a hs sophomore in pennsylvania that is supposed to be amazing, maybe we should start the qb clock in 2027. There is also a kid in Alabama peewees that looks sharp. I don't mind waiting until 2032.


Another bullshit premise. Eli is not on the roster in 2020. It's merely a question of whether you believe what is available as a replacement next season is preferable to just grabbing anything this season.
RE: bw  
TJ : 4/8/2019 3:00 pm : link
In comment 14377310 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.

For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.



Any mgmt which bases its personnel decision on whether it will allow press or fans to invent controversy is clearly not up to the job. If your contention is true then this team is in much worse trouble than a new QB can fix. I'm not an expert but I've seen nothing to suggest Gettleman et al are that incompetant.
Bill L  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 3:00 pm : link
Quote:
Another bullshit premise. Eli is not on the roster in 2020.


I'd put the chances of Eli being the starting QB in 2020 at better than 50%.
TJ  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 3:01 pm : link
Any decision involving Eli is coming from above Gettleman.
RE: Bill L  
Bill L : 4/8/2019 3:04 pm : link
In comment 14377427 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


Another bullshit premise. Eli is not on the roster in 2020.



I'd put the chances of Eli being the starting QB in 2020 at better than 50%.


If that happens, I'll cross over to your side. But I don't think that there is anyway in hell that he will be here....


Unless....he leads the team to the playoffs or more. And, if that does happen, then I will probably cross back to this side and argue for retention. But then again, I see wins as the goal whereas you just want to sell off pieces for cash.
RE: It is just plain dumb  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/8/2019 3:05 pm : link
In comment 14377147 jtdukedfw said:
Quote:
to select Lock at 6 because you don't like Rosen like King is suggesting. There isnt a single scout out there that thinks Lock is better than Rosen. How as a Giant fan can you not think Rosen plus the 6th pick would not be better than Lock plus pick 37 (assuming this would be the trade for Rosen).

Lock is not a confirmed coach killer franchise QBbeing thrown in the dumpster by his franchise.
Bill L  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 3:08 pm : link
The pieces I've been wanting to sell off have been the reason we've been losers for years. There's a direct tie between cap allocation and win/loss record. It's incredible to me that anyone would doubt that anymore.

Eli at $23M is a miserable allocation of cap space. The Giants haven't shown any interest in alleviating that issue. That's the long and short of it.
RE: RE: RE: bw  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/8/2019 3:10 pm : link
In comment 14377421 Bill L said:
Quote:


Another bullshit premise. Eli is not on the roster in 2020. It's merely a question of whether you believe what is available as a replacement next season is preferable to just grabbing anything this season.


Heaven help me, but I agree with Terps... IF the Giants don't add a QB in this draft. Outside of Tua, I can't definitively say any of the 2020 QBs will be given the starting spot right away. In that scenario, I can definitely see the Giants trying to give Eli a "Warner in 2004" job as the starter for an indeterminate length of time to begin 2020.
RE: DG, Mara or Shurmur,  
Section331 : 4/8/2019 3:13 pm : link
In comment 14377110 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
are not going to tell Peter King squat


Exactly. King has never had reliable inside dirt on the Giants. It may very well be true that NYG brass isn't sold on Rosen, but if it were due to his being difficult, I'm pretty sure they could get answers on that pretty quickly.
Honestly, I just think you're cheap  
Bill L : 4/8/2019 3:14 pm : link
and because it's not your money, it's cheap just for the sake of being cheap. You're probably too young to be a Depression Era baby but maybe a throwback
WHich I don't mean as an insult  
Bill L : 4/8/2019 3:15 pm : link
it's usually an okay thing, especially as we head towards retirement.
RE: bw  
bw in dc : 4/8/2019 3:32 pm : link
In comment 14377355 Go Terps said:
Quote:
One of the biggest perks of getting Rosen is the contract. Starting this season, 3 years at about $2M a year. That is a massive competitive advantage. But why waste a year of that with him on the bench? Not just that, but it risks turning the season into a QB controversy circus. Eli's presence is a huge confounder, which is why I advocated cutting him all offseason. But cutting Eli clearly isn't going to happen, so I'd rather start the clock on the next QB a year from now.

A starting QB on a rookie deal is the biggest competitive advantage you can have under the current CBA. The Giants have eschewed that advantage two years in a row now, which is frustrating...but here we are.


I hear you, and agree in principle.

But you sort of sidestepped my question. Is it better to have Rosen here for on less season on the field than not at all? Again, you know me, I would have cut Eli last year (hell, after the 2014 season I would have traded him, but that's a different ball of wax). But I am torn between at least having Rosen here versus not.

I have the worst feeling all of this is going to be a moot point anyway. I fully expect some announcement over the summer that Eli has been extended and can has been kicked even further down the road...

Bill L  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 3:37 pm : link
I'm not cheap at all. I want the Giants to spend every dollar of cap space every year. I just want them to stop spending it stupidly.
bw  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 3:38 pm : link
I don't see the point if Eli's here. If Eli's here, I don't want another QB added at all. At that point, I'd say cut Tanney, coach up Lauletta, and have him ready to start games if/when the season goes sideways.
37th pick  
giantfan2000 : 4/8/2019 3:41 pm : link
here are 37th picks from last few years
so how valuable is the pick?

mix bag -- can hit big or have a bust


2018 Braden Smith Colts OL -- up and coming
2017 Zay Jones - Bills WR --- meh
2016 - Chris Jones - KC- DT - Second team all pro this year
2015 - Devin Smith Jets - WR - had injury now on Cowboys pretty much bust

RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
Optimus-NY : 4/8/2019 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:
Quote:
this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.


I agree.
RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
Bill L : 4/8/2019 3:53 pm : link
In comment 14377518 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:


Quote:


this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.



I agree.


Not me. I really feel that Rosen is fool's gold. He'll either force you to invest resources around him that could be used elsewhere or, especially if he doesn't play next season, cause you to think you have a QB in place and eschew picking someone in 2020 and then when he retires prematurely, you're left high and dry. He's the most dangerous of all of our options.
RE: I wish  
twostepgiants : 4/8/2019 3:53 pm : link
In comment 14377317 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
we REALLY knew what the team felt about Rosen a year ago.


Eric, The Giants met with Rosen as much or more than any QB they scouted last year like Baker Mayfield. They sent a very large contingent to his Pro Day. The Giants ownership, both owners, went to dinner with Rosen in California and the Giants had a private visit with Rosen in NJ and worked him out and took him out again. We know he met with Shurmur because Rosen commented on it.

This seems like an awful lot of “due dilegence” for a guy they had no interest in or didn’t like at all. They passed on Rosen at the 2 pick but to me that doesn’t scream they would not want him on their team at the cost of a much lower draft pick and much less money.
RE: RE: It is just plain dumb  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/8/2019 4:01 pm : link
In comment 14377438 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 14377147 jtdukedfw said:


Quote:


to select Lock at 6 because you don't like Rosen like King is suggesting. There isnt a single scout out there that thinks Lock is better than Rosen. How as a Giant fan can you not think Rosen plus the 6th pick would not be better than Lock plus pick 37 (assuming this would be the trade for Rosen).


Lock is not a confirmed coach killer franchise QBbeing thrown in the dumpster by his franchise.

You think Steve Wilks would still be the coach if not for Rosen? If not, your entire statement is ridiculous, though that's not surprising.

Is trolling a message board really that much fun?
RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
illmatic : 4/8/2019 4:05 pm : link
In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:
Quote:
this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.


I'm feeling the same way if these reports are true. This should be a no-brainer to get a guy like that for a second round pick while still having two first rounders. I'm already mentally preparing myself to see Daniel Jones selected at 17. Ugh.
It's not just the Giants  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 4/8/2019 4:08 pm : link
there hardly seems to be a vibrant market for Josh Rosen. If he truly is a franchise QB in waiting, there ought to be multiple teams in the first round who are willing to trade for him. And yet... all the rumors are of low 2nd or 3rd round offers. That says that lots of people that get paid to evaluate talent aren't that high on him. And the evaluation has declined since they have been able to watch his NFL tape.
RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 4/8/2019 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14377530 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14377518 Optimus-NY said:


Quote:


In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:


Quote:


this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.



I agree.



Not me. I really feel that Rosen is fool's gold. He'll either force you to invest resources around him that could be used elsewhere or, especially if he doesn't play next season, cause you to think you have a QB in place and eschew picking someone in 2020 and then when he retires prematurely, you're left high and dry. He's the most dangerous of all of our options.


So you actually think that a young man who has worked his tail off for 10 or 12 years to become an NFL QB is going to give that up after three or four years? Boy, you really don't understand how professional athletes think. Rosen is a competitor; he is not a quitter.
RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
joeinpa : 4/8/2019 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14377151 cokeduplt said:
Quote:
In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:


Quote:


this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.



It’s very troublesome. I can’t think of 1 good reason not to do it


I have chosen to believe that Eli is not a factor in whether they pick a quarterback or whom the pick.

But with each quarterback that they manage to find a reason not to draft, I must admit a shred of doubt creeps in as to their motivation
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
Bill L : 4/8/2019 4:37 pm : link
In comment 14377597 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 14377530 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14377518 Optimus-NY said:


Quote:


In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:


Quote:


this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.



I agree.



Not me. I really feel that Rosen is fool's gold. He'll either force you to invest resources around him that could be used elsewhere or, especially if he doesn't play next season, cause you to think you have a QB in place and eschew picking someone in 2020 and then when he retires prematurely, you're left high and dry. He's the most dangerous of all of our options.



So you actually think that a young man who has worked his tail off for 10 or 12 years to become an NFL QB is going to give that up after three or four years? Boy, you really don't understand how professional athletes think. Rosen is a competitor; he is not a quitter.

Neither was Chris Borland.
Too blinded by Eli  
Rflairr : 4/8/2019 4:45 pm : link
To be sold on any one
Rosen shows up for Cardinals team work-out  
GFAN52 : 4/8/2019 5:04 pm : link
Quote:
With his future hanging in the air — and the Redskins emerging as the front-runner to trade for him — Josh Rosen showed up to work Monday still trying to impress his current bosses.

The quarterback was the first one to enter the building Monday morning as the Cardinals kicked off their offseason conditioning program, according to the NFL Network.
Here's the link  
GFAN52 : 4/8/2019 5:05 pm : link
https://nypost.com/2019/04/08/josh-rosen-makes-cardinals-happy-as-redskins-emerge-in-hunt/
my previous post  
giantfan2000 : 4/8/2019 5:22 pm : link
my point was 37 pick is a crap shoot
you can get a great pick or a bust

so the question is - is Rosen worth 37?

My feeling it is no brainer ..Rosen could potentially be great QB and getting him for minimal salary cap for 3 years just seems like perfect post Eli solution ..

At worse case -- Rosen is a total bust in 2 years .. but then you are drafting QB in 2021 anyway but if he is the answer you have QB for next 5 - 10 years for a 37 pick ..
RE: Here's the link  
jtdukedfw : 4/8/2019 5:44 pm : link
In comment 14377669 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
https://nypost.com/2019/04/08/josh-rosen-makes-cardinals-happy-as-redskins-emerge-in-hunt/


What a jerk he had to be the FIRST one there to show everyone up!
RE: Well one of the ways I see it is  
Mike from Ohio : 4/8/2019 6:02 pm : link
In comment 14377368 Giant John said:
Quote:
If AZ is giving up on the guy so quickly why would we want to pay top dollar?
Just dumb.


The whole point about Rosen is you aren't paying top dollar at all. You are getting a guy with clear talent who would be dirt cheap and easily cut. Most advocating for Rosen are doing it on a risk/reward basis rather than a belief he is undoubtedly the next Tom Brady.
RE: RE: Well one of the ways I see it is  
jtdukedfw : 4/8/2019 6:09 pm : link
In comment 14377726 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 14377368 Giant John said:


Quote:


If AZ is giving up on the guy so quickly why would we want to pay top dollar?
Just dumb.



The whole point about Rosen is you aren't paying top dollar at all. You are getting a guy with clear talent who would be dirt cheap and easily cut. Most advocating for Rosen are doing it on a risk/reward basis rather than a belief he is undoubtedly the next Tom Brady.


100% agree plus we will not be spending our #6 or #17 draft pick (I would only trade for Rosen with pick 32)
oops typed too fast  
jtdukedfw : 4/8/2019 6:11 pm : link
that would be i would only trade for Rosen for pick 37 and above
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
montanagiant : 4/8/2019 6:29 pm : link
In comment 14377253 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14377221 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:



So ditching a player that was drafted as the face of the franchise and the most important position in sports after a single year gives you zero pause? I mean, I know you have your role to play here, but that really does not enter your calculus as to whether or not there is no downside?



It's the Cardinals. I wouldn't say they have a rich history of great decision making.

Moreover, they have a new coach who obviously wants a more dynamic QB play maker. A player who can keep plays alive. And with that OL, Rosen is not that caliber of player.

Look, I liked Rosen last year, but was very concerned about his medical history. I was very impressed with the way he stood his ground last year and kept popping-up despite being a clay pigeon for most defenses.

The most critical thing here is that this is a cap winner all the way around. If Rosen hits, it's cap xanadu. If not, we cut him and the cap hit is almost negligible.


You have to take it deeper then "They have a new coach who wants more of a dynamic QB". They kept thee GM who both drafted and hired a Coach who doesn't have any real resume full of success as a head coach even at the college level.

So why would the GM who traded picks to move up to get Rosen decide that he would hire a coach who runs a different style. You're basically taking about a 10M cost and 2 high draft picks wasted to get a guy you're dumping a year later because you choose a coach who runs a different style of Offense. That screams "red flag".
RE: It's not just the Giants  
FStubbs : 4/8/2019 6:50 pm : link
In comment 14377581 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
there hardly seems to be a vibrant market for Josh Rosen. If he truly is a franchise QB in waiting, there ought to be multiple teams in the first round who are willing to trade for him. And yet... all the rumors are of low 2nd or 3rd round offers. That says that lots of people that get paid to evaluate talent aren't that high on him. And the evaluation has declined since they have been able to watch his NFL tape.


That's the "driving a car off the lot" factor.

How much do you think the Giants would've gotten for Eli after the 2004 season?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
GFAN52 : 4/8/2019 7:44 pm : link
In comment 14377754 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14377253 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14377221 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:



So ditching a player that was drafted as the face of the franchise and the most important position in sports after a single year gives you zero pause? I mean, I know you have your role to play here, but that really does not enter your calculus as to whether or not there is no downside?



It's the Cardinals. I wouldn't say they have a rich history of great decision making.

Moreover, they have a new coach who obviously wants a more dynamic QB play maker. A player who can keep plays alive. And with that OL, Rosen is not that caliber of player.

Look, I liked Rosen last year, but was very concerned about his medical history. I was very impressed with the way he stood his ground last year and kept popping-up despite being a clay pigeon for most defenses.

The most critical thing here is that this is a cap winner all the way around. If Rosen hits, it's cap xanadu. If not, we cut him and the cap hit is almost negligible.



You have to take it deeper then "They have a new coach who wants more of a dynamic QB". They kept thee GM who both drafted and hired a Coach who doesn't have any real resume full of success as a head coach even at the college level.

So why would the GM who traded picks to move up to get Rosen decide that he would hire a coach who runs a different style. You're basically taking about a 10M cost and 2 high draft picks wasted to get a guy you're dumping a year later because you choose a coach who runs a different style of Offense. That screams "red flag".


So why would the GM fire a coach he hired after only one year! That screams "red flag", as in a dysfunctional front office, and has much more impact than anything Rosen did.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
Chris in Philly : 4/8/2019 8:03 pm : link
In comment 14377597 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 14377530 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14377518 Optimus-NY said:


Quote:


In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:


Quote:


this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.



I agree.



Not me. I really feel that Rosen is fool's gold. He'll either force you to invest resources around him that could be used elsewhere or, especially if he doesn't play next season, cause you to think you have a QB in place and eschew picking someone in 2020 and then when he retires prematurely, you're left high and dry. He's the most dangerous of all of our options.



So you actually think that a young man who has worked his tail off for 10 or 12 years to become an NFL QB is going to give that up after three or four years? Boy, you really don't understand how professional athletes think. Rosen is a competitor; he is not a quitter.


A. You know nothing of Rosen and his character. Please.

B. Players quit all the time.
The Red Flag is Keim himself  
Diver_Down : 4/8/2019 8:17 pm : link
In comment 14377754 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14377253 bw in dc said:

You have to take it deeper then "They have a new coach who wants more of a dynamic QB". They kept thee GM who both drafted and hired a Coach who doesn't have any real resume full of success as a head coach even at the college level.

So why would the GM who traded picks to move up to get Rosen decide that he would hire a coach who runs a different style. You're basically taking about a 10M cost and 2 high draft picks wasted to get a guy you're dumping a year later because you choose a coach who runs a different style of Offense. That screams "red flag".


The "red flag" is Keim himself. Perhaps, it doesn't get the media attention that the Giants would receive. But if Dave had driven drunk (not just the run-of-the-mill DUI, but Extreme DUI), I would think his ability to retain being the GM for the Giants would be in jeopardy. I suspect Keim was put on notice.

I look at the turmoil with the Cards as Keim's Hail Mary. By jettisoning the coaching staff, he has built in the first excuse to prolong his career. If the staff had remained and they continued to be a dumpster fire, then Keim along with the coaches would be sent packing. With the new boy wonder, a first time HC won't have high expectations. If they can show improvement, then ownership will keep the status quo.

Now, the decision to draft Kyler/trade Josh would bolster their success and prolong both of their careers. Kliff is a system coach who has never had a winning record. The decision to hire him in the first-place is suspect. But with Kliff hired, what better way to ensure his system is successful than to draft what Kliff thinks is the perfect prospect to run his system?

I really believe the decision makers in the desert are not necessarily making the decisions for the best of the franchise, but for their own short-term interests. It is a huge gamble. If it works, Keim and Kliff will look like geniuses. If not, then they both will be fired. The result being no different if Kliff was forced to make his system work with Josh.
If the Giants can land Rosen for...  
Milton : 4/8/2019 8:27 pm : link
The 37th pick (early 2nd round), the 142nd pick (early 5th round) and next year's 3rd round pick (likely to be in the 90's, only a couple of slots before the comp pick they get for Collins) that would be a steal.
p.s.-- Maybe add Lauletta to the package as well if there's interest from the Cardinals. His mobility may mesh with what Kingsbury is trying to build around Murray.
RE: If the Giants can land Rosen for...  
BlueLou'sBack : 4/8/2019 9:06 pm : link
In comment 14377922 Milton said:
Quote:
The 37th pick (early 2nd round), the 142nd pick (early 5th round) and next year's 3rd round pick (likely to be in the 90's, only a couple of slots before the comp pick they get for Collins) that would be a steal.
p.s.-- Maybe add Lauletta to the package as well if there's interest from the Cardinals. His mobility may mesh with what Kingsbury is trying to build around Murray.

The alleged offer from.the Redskins is already better than your proposal. Giants would need to pony up their 2nd round picks this year and next just to match it. You know how to use a draft value chart.
RE: RE: If the Giants can land Rosen for...  
Milton : 4/8/2019 9:24 pm : link
In comment 14377990 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14377922 Milton said:


Quote:


The 37th pick (early 2nd round), the 142nd pick (early 5th round) and next year's 3rd round pick (likely to be in the 90's, only a couple of slots before the comp pick they get for Collins) that would be a steal.
p.s.-- Maybe add Lauletta to the package as well if there's interest from the Cardinals. His mobility may mesh with what Kingsbury is trying to build around Murray.


The alleged offer from.the Redskins is already better than your proposal. Giants would need to pony up their 2nd round picks this year and next just to match it.

The rumored offer from the Redskins doesn't ring true to me. If there's any truth at all to it I suspect the offer includes either a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2020, but not both (i.e., a conditional 3rd round pick that could improve to a 2nd round pick if Rosen starts x number of games for the Skins).
p.s.--I wouldn't get too attached to the specifics of rumored offers. There's always an agenda.
We aren’t  
crooza172 : 4/8/2019 9:32 pm : link
Trading for Rosen. Why are we still posting about this??
RE: bw  
djm : 4/8/2019 9:38 pm : link
In comment 14377310 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.

For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.


Made up narrative.
RE: RE: bw  
Go Terps : 4/8/2019 9:46 pm : link
In comment 14378059 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14377310 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.

For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.



Made up narrative.


For the Giants' sake I hope it isn't, because if it is indeed a made up narrative then they just look pretty foolish.
RE: RE: RE: bw  
crooza172 : 4/8/2019 9:48 pm : link
In comment 14378087 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14378059 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 14377310 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.

For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.



Made up narrative.



For the Giants' sake I hope it isn't, because if it is indeed a made up narrative then they just look pretty foolish.


IMO it was made up only to justify the stupid decisions this regime has made and continues to make. Humans love to justify things they don’t understand and in this case it is raw stupidity.
I'm with Terps ...  
DonQuixote : 4/9/2019 7:59 am : link
We are currently paying top dollar for a middle of the road QB, and losing.

We have draft resources to spend on getting good players and they should grab Rosen, who is not only an immediate upgrade but can be had at a discount on his rookie contract. I would even support giving up the #17, though I bet they could put fewer resources into it.

If the Giants don't like Rosen, that is what it is, but trying to avoid a controversy is a truly alarming thing.
RE: I'm with Terps ...  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2019 8:35 am : link
In comment 14378538 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
We are currently paying top dollar for a middle of the road QB, and losing.

We have draft resources to spend on getting good players and they should grab Rosen, who is not only an immediate upgrade but can be had at a discount on his rookie contract. I would even support giving up the #17, though I bet they could put fewer resources into it.

If the Giants don't like Rosen, that is what it is, but trying to avoid a controversy is a truly alarming thing.


Who said that they are trying to avoid controversy? Someone throws that shit out there and people run with it as fact. They have virtually zero idea what the Giants’ mindset is. Yeah, DG gives a flying fuck what people really think.

Oh, good morning DQ
RE: RE: I'm with Terps ...  
ron mexico : 4/9/2019 8:47 am : link
In comment 14378562 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14378538 DonQuixote said:


Quote:


We are currently paying top dollar for a middle of the road QB, and losing.

We have draft resources to spend on getting good players and they should grab Rosen, who is not only an immediate upgrade but can be had at a discount on his rookie contract. I would even support giving up the #17, though I bet they could put fewer resources into it.

If the Giants don't like Rosen, that is what it is, but trying to avoid a controversy is a truly alarming thing.



Who said that they are trying to avoid controversy? Someone throws that shit out there and people run with it as fact. They have virtually zero idea what the Giants’ mindset is. Yeah, DG gives a flying fuck what people really think.

Oh, good morning DQ


Our resident insider JT said they do not want a QB controversy as part of the reasoning to pass on Rosen.
Didn’t jt...  
bw in dc : 4/9/2019 8:47 am : link
say one of the reasons Jints Central was leery of adding Rosen was the likelihood of a QB controversy?

Or one of the Asshats made that claim.
Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2019 9:03 am : link
don’t want a controversy. Someone may have opined this, but I am certain DG and Mara and even Tisch said nothing of the sort to him or anyone else. And I love jt. He’s been my bbi buddy for many years.

So please stop with this CERTAINTY
RE: Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
ron mexico : 4/9/2019 9:08 am : link
In comment 14378615 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
don’t want a controversy. Someone may have opined this, but I am certain DG and Mara and even Tisch said nothing of the sort to him or anyone else. And I love jt. He’s been my bbi buddy for many years.

So please stop with this CERTAINTY




He said Eli was promised the starting job until eliminated and they don't want to deal with a QB controversy while that is going on..

He is the insider you can believe him or not. But its not being presented as opinion, its being presented as an insiders understanding of the ORGs thinking at this point.

RE: RE: Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2019 9:12 am : link
In comment 14378630 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14378615 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


don’t want a controversy. Someone may have opined this, but I am certain DG and Mara and even Tisch said nothing of the sort to him or anyone else. And I love jt. He’s been my bbi buddy for many years.

So please stop with this CERTAINTY





He said Eli was promised the starting job until eliminated and they don't want to deal with a QB controversy while that is going on..

He is the insider you can believe him or not. But its not being presented as opinion, its being presented as an insiders understanding of the ORGs thinking at this point.


He’s still a fan, not a person with direct knowledge of this. Many of us have speculated that about Eli, yet we have zero proof of this.

Regardless, silly to debate this. We both can believe what we care to, but we need to be careful to take this as even reasonable gospel, imo
I don't know who he is  
ron mexico : 4/9/2019 9:15 am : link
but he presents himself a more than just a fan. He presents himself as someone with access to the org.

His track record backs up his claims.

I believe Francessa pushed DG on the promise to Eli to start. So its not just here that is getting floated around.
Either way  
ron mexico : 4/9/2019 9:33 am : link
Believing that we wont trade for Rosen and Eli will start every game this year barring injury is about as risky as believing that the sun rises in the east.

RE: I'm more and more convinced...  
Jersey55 : 4/9/2019 9:38 am : link
In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:
Quote:
this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.

Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.

I think its a no brainer too but I also think the Redskins will do whatever they can to take him before we do...
RE: Bill L  
Jersey55 : 4/9/2019 9:40 am : link
In comment 14377441 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The pieces I've been wanting to sell off have been the reason we've been losers for years. There's a direct tie between cap allocation and win/loss record. It's incredible to me that anyone would doubt that anymore.

Eli at $23M is a miserable allocation of cap space. The Giants haven't shown any interest in alleviating that issue. That's the long and short of it.
tha just shows how little teams in the NFL value money these days .
RE: RE: bw  
Jersey55 : 4/9/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14377478 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14377355 Go Terps said:


Quote:


One of the biggest perks of getting Rosen is the contract. Starting this season, 3 years at about $2M a year. That is a massive competitive advantage. But why waste a year of that with him on the bench? Not just that, but it risks turning the season into a QB controversy circus. Eli's presence is a huge confounder, which is why I advocated cutting him all offseason. But cutting Eli clearly isn't going to happen, so I'd rather start the clock on the next QB a year from now.

A starting QB on a rookie deal is the biggest competitive advantage you can have under the current CBA. The Giants have eschewed that advantage two years in a row now, which is frustrating...but here we are.



I hear you, and agree in principle.

But you sort of sidestepped my question. Is it better to have Rosen here for on less season on the field than not at all? Again, you know me, I would have cut Eli last year (hell, after the 2014 season I would have traded him, but that's a different ball of wax). But I am torn between at least having Rosen here versus not.

I have the worst feeling all of this is going to be a moot point anyway. I fully expect some announcement over the summer that Eli has been extended and can has been kicked even further down the road...

Eli is not keeping his job because of his talent, he keeps his job because of sentiment and loyalty and not because of his play, one more thing that keeps Eli's job is the fact that management has done a very poor job of replacing him..
RE: It's not just the Giants  
Jersey55 : 4/9/2019 9:47 am : link
In comment 14377581 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
there hardly seems to be a vibrant market for Josh Rosen. If he truly is a franchise QB in waiting, there ought to be multiple teams in the first round who are willing to trade for him. And yet... all the rumors are of low 2nd or 3rd round offers. That says that lots of people that get paid to evaluate talent aren't that high on him. And the evaluation has declined since they have been able to watch his NFL tape.
the Redskins are salivating right now about Rosen and how they can slide in ahead of us in this draft to get him.....
RE: RE: RE: bw  
bw in dc : 4/9/2019 11:08 am : link
In comment 14378710 Jersey55 said:
Quote:


Eli is not keeping his job because of his talent, he keeps his job because of sentiment and loyalty and not because of his play, one more thing that keeps Eli's job is the fact that management has done a very poor job of replacing him..


I think this is largely true. And have made a similar argument the last two years.
RE: Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
bw in dc : 4/9/2019 11:14 am : link
In comment 14378615 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
don’t want a controversy. Someone may have opined this, but I am certain DG and Mara and even Tisch said nothing of the sort to him or anyone else. And I love jt. He’s been my bbi buddy for many years.

So please stop with this CERTAINTY


How do you know with certainty that DG, Mara or Tisch have never said they don't want to deal with a QB controversy by bringing in someone like Rosen?

Frankly, I'd be stunned if something like this wasn't considered. I can't think of a team that enjoys a QB controversy. Can you?
RE: RE: Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14378881 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14378615 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


don’t want a controversy. Someone may have opined this, but I am certain DG and Mara and even Tisch said nothing of the sort to him or anyone else. And I love jt. He’s been my bbi buddy for many years.

So please stop with this CERTAINTY



How do you know with certainty that DG, Mara or Tisch have never said they don't want to deal with a QB controversy by bringing in someone like Rosen?

Frankly, I'd be stunned if something like this wasn't considered. I can't think of a team that enjoys a QB controversy. Can you?


I don’t, neither does anyone else other than DH andMara
DH=DG  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2019 11:18 am : link
.
RE: RE: Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 4/9/2019 11:28 am : link
In comment 14378881 bw in dc said:
Quote:
How do you know with certainty that DG, Mara or Tisch have never said they don't want to deal with a QB controversy by bringing in someone like Rosen?


If you make a ridiculous claim based on nothing but internet gossip then the burden of proof is on you to back up the stupid claim. It's not on us to prove that it's false.
Seriously  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 4/9/2019 11:29 am : link
does nobody understand burden of proof anymore?
RE: RE: RE: Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
bw in dc : 4/9/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14378909 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14378881 bw in dc said:


Quote:


How do you know with certainty that DG, Mara or Tisch have never said they don't want to deal with a QB controversy by bringing in someone like Rosen?




If you make a ridiculous claim based on nothing but internet gossip then the burden of proof is on you to back up the stupid claim. It's not on us to prove that it's false.


I made a claim based on a source that has been deemed dependable here at BBI.

So if you don't think jt is a reliable source, and he is making ridiculous claims, then perhaps you need to have a conversation with the moderators, not me.

Furthermore, I don't think it actually takes an insider to conclude that the Giants may not want Rosen because it could cause a QB controversy. That's really just plain old common sense.

Finally, I made my comment back to BB'56 because he suggested that using the word "certain" was an issue. Yet, he uses the word to make a point about what he thinks the front office is thinking. Seemed a bit ironical to me...
Didn't want to start another Rosen thread  
kelsto811 : 4/9/2019 1:24 pm : link
But Markus Golden on Josh Rosen:

Quote:

Ian Rapoport
✔
@RapSheet
· Apr 8, 2019
The #AZCardinals offseason conditioning program begins today, and not only is QB Josh Rosen in the building… he was the first guy in the building for new coach Kliff Kingsbury.


Markus Golden
✔
@markusgolden
He was the first in the building as a rookie to! Great Guy and player!

620
12:13 PM - Apr 8, 2019

Link - ( New Window )
Rosen  
Thegratefulhead : 4/9/2019 1:44 pm : link
If we trade for him it will be obvious to everyone, fans, coaches and players that Rosen is a better fit for Shurmur's system and a more accurate QB. If your plan is to have Eli start all year, Rosen probably is not in the Giant's plan. /Sigh
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
Bill L : 4/9/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14379002 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14378909 LakeGeorgeGiant said:


Quote:


In comment 14378881 bw in dc said:


Quote:


How do you know with certainty that DG, Mara or Tisch have never said they don't want to deal with a QB controversy by bringing in someone like Rosen?




If you make a ridiculous claim based on nothing but internet gossip then the burden of proof is on you to back up the stupid claim. It's not on us to prove that it's false.



I made a claim based on a source that has been deemed dependable here at BBI.

So if you don't think jt is a reliable source, and he is making ridiculous claims, then perhaps you need to have a conversation with the moderators, not me.

Furthermore, I don't think it actually takes an insider to conclude that the Giants may not want Rosen because it could cause a QB controversy. That's really just plain old common sense.

Finally, I made my comment back to BB'56 because he suggested that using the word "certain" was an issue. Yet, he uses the word to make a point about what he thinks the front office is thinking. Seemed a bit ironical to me...


Why is it difficult to believe that they may not want (or at least at the price required) Rosen simply based on Rosen?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
Go Terps : 4/9/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14379223 Bill L said:
Quote:
Why is it difficult to believe that they may not want (or at least at the price required) Rosen simply based on Rosen?


It isn't. And if that's the case it's fair to question the Giants' ability to judge quarterbacks.
its fair to question their ability to evaluate quarterbacks  
BigBlueCane : 4/9/2019 4:22 pm : link
based on their hesitation towards a QB with a known concussion history and has questions about his love of the game?

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jt or anyone does not know that they specifically  
bw in dc : 4/9/2019 4:28 pm : link
In comment 14379223 Bill L said:
Quote:


Why is it difficult to believe that they may not want (or at least at the price required) Rosen simply based on Rosen?



I agree. It isn't difficult to believe that.

In fact, it's fairly easy to see this group of old men decision makers being turned off by a millenial who speaks his mind. God forbid they accept his personality and manage it. And then try to get the most out the more important part - Rosen's talent.
RE: its fair to question their ability to evaluate quarterbacks  
bw in dc : 4/9/2019 4:30 pm : link
In comment 14379445 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
based on their hesitation towards a QB with a known concussion history and has questions about his love of the game?


The medical is a legitimate concern.

How do you want Rosen to prove his commitment to the game? Polygraph?
RE: its fair to question their ability to evaluate quarterbacks  
Go Terps : 4/9/2019 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14379445 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
based on their hesitation towards a QB with a known concussion history and has questions about his love of the game?


It's fair to question them when they're opting for paying 38 year old Eli $23M instead of paying 22 year old Rosen $2M.

The commitment to Rosen would be minimal - trading for him this offseason wouldn't have prevented us from drafting a QB next year or even in this upcoming draft.
again you're glossing over the impact Rosen could or would have on the  
BigBlueCane : 4/9/2019 4:56 pm : link
team by describing it as minimal.

It's not that easy to do, especially given the locker room and culture this team has at present, with a head coach that you and I probably are of similar opinion about.

The Patriots, they can pull that idea off. As can one or two other teams in the league.

But The New York Giants right now, can't. I don't agree with keeping Eli as the Starter and paying him $23 million this year to be .500 or so QB.

But I also don't think the answer or an answer should be trading away draft picks for a QB that has the red flags that Rosen has.
BBC  
Go Terps : 4/9/2019 5:08 pm : link
He is the best answer of the possible answers available. He's a better QB than any we'd likely be able to draft, and he's significantly cheaper and younger than Eli.

Is he a perfect solution? No, but he is preferable to what we're actually doing.

I also don't buy any arguments related to the locker room and culture. I haven't read a single negative thing regarding Rosen's work ethic. And again, if he's a mess we can always move on from him in a year.

Conversely, what about the potential impact of Eli on the locker room culture? Many of the players in that room are 13-15 years younger than Eli is. Some may be looking at him and saying, "He isn't getting the job done, but he's the owner's boy and is on scholarship this year." They don't give a shit about 2011...they were probably in high school at the time.

In summary, bringing in Rosen wouldn't have been about the next 5 years. It'd have been about 2019, with an easy out in the event things went sideways.

But Eli's presence is clouding the front office's ability to think clearly and critically.
Giantfan2000  
Jerry K : 4/9/2019 5:13 pm : link
The worst case is that Rosen is a bust, you waste a 2nd round pick, and you miss out on a player like Michael Strahan, Tiki Barber, Amani Toomer, Osi Umenyiora, or Chris Snee -- all 2nd round picks.
Terps no he isn't.  
BigBlueCane : 4/9/2019 5:22 pm : link
Rosen would never see the field here unless both Manning and Tanner are injured and unable to play. So not only would you not know if he can handle the offense, you also would not know if he could handle the pressure of playing in NYC for likely 1-2 more years at which point his cap savings become moot and the team likely has a new GM, HC and other personnel who want their own guy at QB.


The best answer for the team right now would be draft a lineman at #6 (my preference is Taylor but YMMV) and continue building the team outside of the QB position and hope they can stockpile enough draft picks to trade up until the top 2-3 like the Eagles did.
BBC - I should amend what I said earlier  
Go Terps : 4/9/2019 5:25 pm : link
Rosen was the best option when cutting Eli to save $17M was still a possible move. That option died on 3/17 when they paid Eli's bonus.

This offseason should have started with Eli being released shortly after the end of the 2018 season. That would have allowed the front office to go into this offseason with greater clarity than that with which they're working now.
the option to move on from Eli died  
BigBlueCane : 4/9/2019 5:37 pm : link
when they drafted SB #2 overall.

This off-season is DG trying to service two agendas, 1)rebuild the team and 2)Compete for the playoffs.

As I said before he's going to fail because he can't do both at the same time. Just hope that Abrams, his successor, has been paying attention and learns something.
RE: the option to move on from Eli died  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/9/2019 5:49 pm : link
In comment 14379532 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
when they drafted SB #2 overall.

This off-season is DG trying to service two agendas, 1)rebuild the team and 2)Compete for the playoffs.

As I said before he's going to fail because he can't do both at the same time. Just hope that Abrams, his successor, has been paying attention and learns something.

I find it very unlikely that Abrams will be Gettleman's successor. I think it'll be Chris Pettit if Gettleman ultimately leaves/retires on good terms and gets to advise on his own successor. Conversely, it will probably be someone from outside the EA/JR/DG lineage if Gettleman's fate comes by way of termination, IMO. I think the franchise sees Abrams strictly as a cap guy, not a talent acquisition guy.

That said, your point is well taken with regard to Gettleman's attempt to make two competing goals work simultaneously.
didn't one of the reporters  
BigBlueCane : 4/9/2019 5:52 pm : link
say something to the effect that Kevin Abrams was being groomed for the GM spot?
RE: didn't one of the reporters  
Tesla : 4/9/2019 6:03 pm : link
In comment 14379545 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
say something to the effect that Kevin Abrams was being groomed for the GM spot?


It's been repeatedly reported that Abrams is being groomed as next GM. They are taking him scouting trips, etc.

If you know anything about how Mara does business you'll understand that it's far more likely than not that Abrams will be the next GM. The fact that they are grooming a glorified accountant to become the next GM should tell you everything you need to know about the direction of this franchise.
If you doubt that Abrams is a glorified accountant....  
Tesla : 4/9/2019 6:08 pm : link
here is his resume from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Early career

Abrams began his career working as an intern for Ohio University football program, the Buffalo Bills, the Washington Redskins, and the London Monarchs.[1]

NFL

Abrams began his career in the NFL working for the NFL Management Council as a salary cap analyst analyzing NFL player contracts. In July 1999, following his work with the NFL Management Council, Abrams was hired by the New York Giants as a salary cap analyst, a newly created position by the team. In 2002 Abrams was promoted to Assistant General Manager working under GM Ernie Accorsi.[2] During the 2017 NFL season, Abrams worked as the Interim General Manager due to the firing of his boss, GM Jerry Reese.[3] Abrams was interviewed for the Giants GM position, however, he was beat out by former Carolina Panthers General Manager and former longtime Giants employee, Dave Gettleman.[4][5]


FYI he's already interviewed for the position once.
RE: RE: didn't one of the reporters  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/9/2019 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14379565 Tesla said:
Quote:
In comment 14379545 BigBlueCane said:


Quote:


say something to the effect that Kevin Abrams was being groomed for the GM spot?



It's been repeatedly reported that Abrams is being groomed as next GM. They are taking him scouting trips, etc.

If you know anything about how Mara does business you'll understand that it's far more likely than not that Abrams will be the next GM. The fact that they are grooming a glorified accountant to become the next GM should tell you everything you need to know about the direction of this franchise.

Abrams is low-hanging fruit for reporters projecting a Gettleman heir apparent waiting in the wings. And for the most part, the Giants' history would tell any reasonable observer that Abrams will absolutely be a serious candidate when that time comes. But for some reason, I think that Pettit is Gettleman's own chosen protégé, and that if Gettleman ultimately gets to name his own successor, it'll be Pettit rather than Abrams.

It's not like Pettit doesn't fit the same mold as Abrams with regard to paying his dues working his way up within the organization. And if you pay attention to how Gettleman tends to look favorably upon "his" guys, he and Pettit go all the way back to 1998, when Pettit interned under DG.

The smart money is probably on Abrams when that time eventually comes, but I'll stake my bet on the slightly longer shot in Pettit.
RE: RE: didn't one of the reporters  
bw in dc : 4/9/2019 7:29 pm : link
In comment 14379565 Tesla said:
Quote:


It's been repeatedly reported that Abrams is being groomed as next GM. They are taking him scouting trips, etc.

If you know anything about how Mara does business you'll understand that it's far more likely than not that Abrams will be the next GM. The fact that they are grooming a glorified accountant to become the next GM should tell you everything you need to know about the direction of this franchise.


So true. Mara is very fond of his GM and Associates “tree”.

He’ll do anything to keep the “Giants Way” in perpetuity. Everyone is conditioned to stay in the box...
RE: RE: RE: didn't one of the reporters  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/17/2019 11:40 am : link
In comment 14379658 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14379565 Tesla said:


Quote:




It's been repeatedly reported that Abrams is being groomed as next GM. They are taking him scouting trips, etc.

If you know anything about how Mara does business you'll understand that it's far more likely than not that Abrams will be the next GM. The fact that they are grooming a glorified accountant to become the next GM should tell you everything you need to know about the direction of this franchise.



So true. Mara is very fond of his GM and Associates “tree”.

He’ll do anything to keep the “Giants Way” in perpetuity. Everyone is conditioned to stay in the box...

Sounds like another tick like Reese, ugh. Give me some old fart with experience in several orgs and a bad toupee like Accorsi.
RE: BBC  
Thegratefulhead : 4/17/2019 11:51 am : link
In comment 14379506 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He is the best answer of the possible answers available. He's a better QB than any we'd likely be able to draft, and he's significantly cheaper and younger than Eli.

Is he a perfect solution? No, but he is preferable to what we're actually doing.

I also don't buy any arguments related to the locker room and culture. I haven't read a single negative thing regarding Rosen's work ethic. And again, if he's a mess we can always move on from him in a year.

Conversely, what about the potential impact of Eli on the locker room culture? Many of the players in that room are 13-15 years younger than Eli is. Some may be looking at him and saying, "He isn't getting the job done, but he's the owner's boy and is on scholarship this year." They don't give a shit about 2011...they were probably in high school at the time.

In summary, bringing in Rosen wouldn't have been about the next 5 years. It'd have been about 2019, with an easy out in the event things went sideways.

But Eli's presence is clouding the front office's ability to think clearly and critically.
Super solid post Terps
Back to the Corner