2. New York Giants—Draft picks in top 100: 6, 17, 37, 95. Unlikely that GM Dave Gettleman will give the 37th pick for Rosen, in part because of value and in part because the Giants really aren’t sure if all the noise about Rosen being difficult has any merit. But the Giants are an option because coach Pat Shurmur is a play-action devotee and likes his quarterback to throw with timing and rhythm. That’s Rosen’s game. Having Eli Manning for one more season would allow Rosen to learn behind a great preparer and very smart player. So how can the Giants make a deal like this, with no pick between early in the second round and very late in the third round? (I’d be very surprised if Arizona would consider Rosen for the 95th pick.) Well, the Giants could offer a second-round pick in 2020, or try to deal the 17th overall pick in some package that would include high second and third-round picks. But dealing for Rosen could allow the Giants to use three picks in the top 40 this year to do what Gettleman really wants to do: continue to build both lines while addressing the post-Eli QB life.
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1. The Giants' decision making regarding Eli is influenced by more than simply what is happening on the field; or
2. The Giants are fundamentally inept in self scouting and/or scouting quarterbacks.
It has to be one of those two things, because paying Eli $23M when they could have cut him and saved $17M is an indefensible position.
A starting QB on a rookie deal is the biggest competitive advantage you can have under the current CBA. The Giants have eschewed that advantage two years in a row now, which is frustrating...but here we are.
i heard there is a qb who is a hs sophomore in pennsylvania that is supposed to be amazing, maybe we should start the qb clock in 2027. There is also a kid in Alabama peewees that looks sharp. I don't mind waiting until 2032.
Whether or not their decision on keeping or paying (or not) Eli is impacted by their view of Eli, then I'll agree to that.
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One of the biggest perks of getting Rosen is the contract. Starting this season, 3 years at about $2M a year. That is a massive competitive advantage. But why waste a year of that with him on the bench? Not just that, but it risks turning the season into a QB controversy circus. Eli's presence is a huge confounder, which is why I advocated cutting him all offseason. But cutting Eli clearly isn't going to happen, so I'd rather start the clock on the next QB a year from now.
A starting QB on a rookie deal is the biggest competitive advantage you can have under the current CBA. The Giants have eschewed that advantage two years in a row now, which is frustrating...but here we are.
i heard there is a qb who is a hs sophomore in pennsylvania that is supposed to be amazing, maybe we should start the qb clock in 2027. There is also a kid in Alabama peewees that looks sharp. I don't mind waiting until 2032.
Another bullshit premise. Eli is not on the roster in 2020. It's merely a question of whether you believe what is available as a replacement next season is preferable to just grabbing anything this season.
For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.
Any mgmt which bases its personnel decision on whether it will allow press or fans to invent controversy is clearly not up to the job. If your contention is true then this team is in much worse trouble than a new QB can fix. I'm not an expert but I've seen nothing to suggest Gettleman et al are that incompetant.
I'd put the chances of Eli being the starting QB in 2020 at better than 50%.
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Another bullshit premise. Eli is not on the roster in 2020.
I'd put the chances of Eli being the starting QB in 2020 at better than 50%.
If that happens, I'll cross over to your side. But I don't think that there is anyway in hell that he will be here....
Unless....he leads the team to the playoffs or more. And, if that does happen, then I will probably cross back to this side and argue for retention. But then again, I see wins as the goal whereas you just want to sell off pieces for cash.
Lock is not a confirmed coach killer franchise QBbeing thrown in the dumpster by his franchise.
Eli at $23M is a miserable allocation of cap space. The Giants haven't shown any interest in alleviating that issue. That's the long and short of it.
Another bullshit premise. Eli is not on the roster in 2020. It's merely a question of whether you believe what is available as a replacement next season is preferable to just grabbing anything this season.
Heaven help me, but I agree with Terps... IF the Giants don't add a QB in this draft. Outside of Tua, I can't definitively say any of the 2020 QBs will be given the starting spot right away. In that scenario, I can definitely see the Giants trying to give Eli a "Warner in 2004" job as the starter for an indeterminate length of time to begin 2020.
Exactly. King has never had reliable inside dirt on the Giants. It may very well be true that NYG brass isn't sold on Rosen, but if it were due to his being difficult, I'm pretty sure they could get answers on that pretty quickly.
A starting QB on a rookie deal is the biggest competitive advantage you can have under the current CBA. The Giants have eschewed that advantage two years in a row now, which is frustrating...but here we are.
I hear you, and agree in principle.
But you sort of sidestepped my question. Is it better to have Rosen here for on less season on the field than not at all? Again, you know me, I would have cut Eli last year (hell, after the 2014 season I would have traded him, but that's a different ball of wax). But I am torn between at least having Rosen here versus not.
I have the worst feeling all of this is going to be a moot point anyway. I fully expect some announcement over the summer that Eli has been extended and can has been kicked even further down the road...
so how valuable is the pick?
mix bag -- can hit big or have a bust
2018 Braden Smith Colts OL -- up and coming
2017 Zay Jones - Bills WR --- meh
2016 - Chris Jones - KC- DT - Second team all pro this year
2015 - Devin Smith Jets - WR - had injury now on Cowboys pretty much bust
Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.
I agree.
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this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.
Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.
I agree.
Not me. I really feel that Rosen is fool's gold. He'll either force you to invest resources around him that could be used elsewhere or, especially if he doesn't play next season, cause you to think you have a QB in place and eschew picking someone in 2020 and then when he retires prematurely, you're left high and dry. He's the most dangerous of all of our options.
Eric, The Giants met with Rosen as much or more than any QB they scouted last year like Baker Mayfield. They sent a very large contingent to his Pro Day. The Giants ownership, both owners, went to dinner with Rosen in California and the Giants had a private visit with Rosen in NJ and worked him out and took him out again. We know he met with Shurmur because Rosen commented on it.
This seems like an awful lot of “due dilegence” for a guy they had no interest in or didn’t like at all. They passed on Rosen at the 2 pick but to me that doesn’t scream they would not want him on their team at the cost of a much lower draft pick and much less money.
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to select Lock at 6 because you don't like Rosen like King is suggesting. There isnt a single scout out there that thinks Lock is better than Rosen. How as a Giant fan can you not think Rosen plus the 6th pick would not be better than Lock plus pick 37 (assuming this would be the trade for Rosen).
Lock is not a confirmed coach killer franchise QBbeing thrown in the dumpster by his franchise.
You think Steve Wilks would still be the coach if not for Rosen? If not, your entire statement is ridiculous, though that's not surprising.
Is trolling a message board really that much fun?
Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.
I'm feeling the same way if these reports are true. This should be a no-brainer to get a guy like that for a second round pick while still having two first rounders. I'm already mentally preparing myself to see Daniel Jones selected at 17. Ugh.
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In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:
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this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.
Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.
I agree.
Not me. I really feel that Rosen is fool's gold. He'll either force you to invest resources around him that could be used elsewhere or, especially if he doesn't play next season, cause you to think you have a QB in place and eschew picking someone in 2020 and then when he retires prematurely, you're left high and dry. He's the most dangerous of all of our options.
So you actually think that a young man who has worked his tail off for 10 or 12 years to become an NFL QB is going to give that up after three or four years? Boy, you really don't understand how professional athletes think. Rosen is a competitor; he is not a quitter.
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this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.
Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.
It’s very troublesome. I can’t think of 1 good reason not to do it
I have chosen to believe that Eli is not a factor in whether they pick a quarterback or whom the pick.
But with each quarterback that they manage to find a reason not to draft, I must admit a shred of doubt creeps in as to their motivation
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In comment 14377518 Optimus-NY said:
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In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:
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this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.
Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.
I agree.
Not me. I really feel that Rosen is fool's gold. He'll either force you to invest resources around him that could be used elsewhere or, especially if he doesn't play next season, cause you to think you have a QB in place and eschew picking someone in 2020 and then when he retires prematurely, you're left high and dry. He's the most dangerous of all of our options.
So you actually think that a young man who has worked his tail off for 10 or 12 years to become an NFL QB is going to give that up after three or four years? Boy, you really don't understand how professional athletes think. Rosen is a competitor; he is not a quitter.
Neither was Chris Borland.
The quarterback was the first one to enter the building Monday morning as the Cardinals kicked off their offseason conditioning program, according to the NFL Network.
you can get a great pick or a bust
so the question is - is Rosen worth 37?
My feeling it is no brainer ..Rosen could potentially be great QB and getting him for minimal salary cap for 3 years just seems like perfect post Eli solution ..
At worse case -- Rosen is a total bust in 2 years .. but then you are drafting QB in 2021 anyway but if he is the answer you have QB for next 5 - 10 years for a 37 pick ..
What a jerk he had to be the FIRST one there to show everyone up!
Just dumb.
The whole point about Rosen is you aren't paying top dollar at all. You are getting a guy with clear talent who would be dirt cheap and easily cut. Most advocating for Rosen are doing it on a risk/reward basis rather than a belief he is undoubtedly the next Tom Brady.
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If AZ is giving up on the guy so quickly why would we want to pay top dollar?
Just dumb.
The whole point about Rosen is you aren't paying top dollar at all. You are getting a guy with clear talent who would be dirt cheap and easily cut. Most advocating for Rosen are doing it on a risk/reward basis rather than a belief he is undoubtedly the next Tom Brady.
100% agree plus we will not be spending our #6 or #17 draft pick (I would only trade for Rosen with pick 32)
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So ditching a player that was drafted as the face of the franchise and the most important position in sports after a single year gives you zero pause? I mean, I know you have your role to play here, but that really does not enter your calculus as to whether or not there is no downside?
It's the Cardinals. I wouldn't say they have a rich history of great decision making.
Moreover, they have a new coach who obviously wants a more dynamic QB play maker. A player who can keep plays alive. And with that OL, Rosen is not that caliber of player.
Look, I liked Rosen last year, but was very concerned about his medical history. I was very impressed with the way he stood his ground last year and kept popping-up despite being a clay pigeon for most defenses.
The most critical thing here is that this is a cap winner all the way around. If Rosen hits, it's cap xanadu. If not, we cut him and the cap hit is almost negligible.
You have to take it deeper then "They have a new coach who wants more of a dynamic QB". They kept thee GM who both drafted and hired a Coach who doesn't have any real resume full of success as a head coach even at the college level.
So why would the GM who traded picks to move up to get Rosen decide that he would hire a coach who runs a different style. You're basically taking about a 10M cost and 2 high draft picks wasted to get a guy you're dumping a year later because you choose a coach who runs a different style of Offense. That screams "red flag".
That's the "driving a car off the lot" factor.
How much do you think the Giants would've gotten for Eli after the 2004 season?
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In comment 14377221 Chris in Philly said:
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So ditching a player that was drafted as the face of the franchise and the most important position in sports after a single year gives you zero pause? I mean, I know you have your role to play here, but that really does not enter your calculus as to whether or not there is no downside?
It's the Cardinals. I wouldn't say they have a rich history of great decision making.
Moreover, they have a new coach who obviously wants a more dynamic QB play maker. A player who can keep plays alive. And with that OL, Rosen is not that caliber of player.
Look, I liked Rosen last year, but was very concerned about his medical history. I was very impressed with the way he stood his ground last year and kept popping-up despite being a clay pigeon for most defenses.
The most critical thing here is that this is a cap winner all the way around. If Rosen hits, it's cap xanadu. If not, we cut him and the cap hit is almost negligible.
You have to take it deeper then "They have a new coach who wants more of a dynamic QB". They kept thee GM who both drafted and hired a Coach who doesn't have any real resume full of success as a head coach even at the college level.
So why would the GM who traded picks to move up to get Rosen decide that he would hire a coach who runs a different style. You're basically taking about a 10M cost and 2 high draft picks wasted to get a guy you're dumping a year later because you choose a coach who runs a different style of Offense. That screams "red flag".
So why would the GM fire a coach he hired after only one year! That screams "red flag", as in a dysfunctional front office, and has much more impact than anything Rosen did.
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In comment 14377518 Optimus-NY said:
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In comment 14377131 bw in dc said:
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this group is not to be trusted with selecting a QB.
Trading for Rosen is such a no-brainer. It's rare that you get such an interesting opportunity with such limited downside.
I agree.
Not me. I really feel that Rosen is fool's gold. He'll either force you to invest resources around him that could be used elsewhere or, especially if he doesn't play next season, cause you to think you have a QB in place and eschew picking someone in 2020 and then when he retires prematurely, you're left high and dry. He's the most dangerous of all of our options.
So you actually think that a young man who has worked his tail off for 10 or 12 years to become an NFL QB is going to give that up after three or four years? Boy, you really don't understand how professional athletes think. Rosen is a competitor; he is not a quitter.
A. You know nothing of Rosen and his character. Please.
B. Players quit all the time.
You have to take it deeper then "They have a new coach who wants more of a dynamic QB". They kept thee GM who both drafted and hired a Coach who doesn't have any real resume full of success as a head coach even at the college level.
So why would the GM who traded picks to move up to get Rosen decide that he would hire a coach who runs a different style. You're basically taking about a 10M cost and 2 high draft picks wasted to get a guy you're dumping a year later because you choose a coach who runs a different style of Offense. That screams "red flag".
The "red flag" is Keim himself. Perhaps, it doesn't get the media attention that the Giants would receive. But if Dave had driven drunk (not just the run-of-the-mill DUI, but Extreme DUI), I would think his ability to retain being the GM for the Giants would be in jeopardy. I suspect Keim was put on notice.
I look at the turmoil with the Cards as Keim's Hail Mary. By jettisoning the coaching staff, he has built in the first excuse to prolong his career. If the staff had remained and they continued to be a dumpster fire, then Keim along with the coaches would be sent packing. With the new boy wonder, a first time HC won't have high expectations. If they can show improvement, then ownership will keep the status quo.
Now, the decision to draft Kyler/trade Josh would bolster their success and prolong both of their careers. Kliff is a system coach who has never had a winning record. The decision to hire him in the first-place is suspect. But with Kliff hired, what better way to ensure his system is successful than to draft what Kliff thinks is the perfect prospect to run his system?
I really believe the decision makers in the desert are not necessarily making the decisions for the best of the franchise, but for their own short-term interests. It is a huge gamble. If it works, Keim and Kliff will look like geniuses. If not, then they both will be fired. The result being no different if Kliff was forced to make his system work with Josh.
p.s.-- Maybe add Lauletta to the package as well if there's interest from the Cardinals. His mobility may mesh with what Kingsbury is trying to build around Murray.
p.s.-- Maybe add Lauletta to the package as well if there's interest from the Cardinals. His mobility may mesh with what Kingsbury is trying to build around Murray.
The alleged offer from.the Redskins is already better than your proposal. Giants would need to pony up their 2nd round picks this year and next just to match it. You know how to use a draft value chart.
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The 37th pick (early 2nd round), the 142nd pick (early 5th round) and next year's 3rd round pick (likely to be in the 90's, only a couple of slots before the comp pick they get for Collins) that would be a steal.
p.s.-- Maybe add Lauletta to the package as well if there's interest from the Cardinals. His mobility may mesh with what Kingsbury is trying to build around Murray.
The alleged offer from.the Redskins is already better than your proposal. Giants would need to pony up their 2nd round picks this year and next just to match it.
The rumored offer from the Redskins doesn't ring true to me. If there's any truth at all to it I suspect the offer includes either a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2020, but not both (i.e., a conditional 3rd round pick that could improve to a 2nd round pick if Rosen starts x number of games for the Skins).
p.s.--I wouldn't get too attached to the specifics of rumored offers. There's always an agenda.
For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.
Made up narrative.
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Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.
For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.
Made up narrative.
For the Giants' sake I hope it isn't, because if it is indeed a made up narrative then they just look pretty foolish.
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In comment 14377310 Go Terps said:
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Strategically, Rosen only really makes sense with Eli out of the picture. They're not going to bring him here to fuel the QB controversy if the season goes sideways.
For the second year in a row, the team's commitment to Eli has eliminated an opportunity to get younger and cheaper at QB.
Made up narrative.
For the Giants' sake I hope it isn't, because if it is indeed a made up narrative then they just look pretty foolish.
IMO it was made up only to justify the stupid decisions this regime has made and continues to make. Humans love to justify things they don’t understand and in this case it is raw stupidity.
We have draft resources to spend on getting good players and they should grab Rosen, who is not only an immediate upgrade but can be had at a discount on his rookie contract. I would even support giving up the #17, though I bet they could put fewer resources into it.
If the Giants don't like Rosen, that is what it is, but trying to avoid a controversy is a truly alarming thing.
We have draft resources to spend on getting good players and they should grab Rosen, who is not only an immediate upgrade but can be had at a discount on his rookie contract. I would even support giving up the #17, though I bet they could put fewer resources into it.
If the Giants don't like Rosen, that is what it is, but trying to avoid a controversy is a truly alarming thing.
Who said that they are trying to avoid controversy? Someone throws that shit out there and people run with it as fact. They have virtually zero idea what the Giants’ mindset is. Yeah, DG gives a flying fuck what people really think.
Oh, good morning DQ