Maybe this isn't new? I hadn't read it before.
The link is a story relayed by Greg Gabriel former Giants and Bears scout/front office guy who was involved with the draft prep (including the 1996 prep).
What I found fascinating (and scary) was the discussion of each player and how Rice went multiple days. And of course how they didn't even have access to medicals on Cedric Jones.
Anyway, good read for those not familair.
Just a blurb:
| Greg Gabriel: How poor preparation led to New York Giants blowing 1996 first-round NFL Draft pick |
...Going into the draft, we felt confident that, at No. 5, we would land one of our top four players — with Rice our most coveted. Even if we didn’t get Rice, we would have been more than happy with any of the other three players.
What we didn’t do is prepare for the worst-case scenario. At no time did we feel that we wouldn’t get a shot at one of our top four players. That mistake falls on the hands of the scouting department, as you can’t assume anything when it comes to the draft.... |
Link - (
New Window )
It's not like they were drafting at 10 and their top 9 guys went. They just had to plan for 5.
Count em,
1,2,3,4,5.
Where is Elmo when you need him?
Totally different situations. The giants had the 10th overall pick. Too many picks before 10, so no way to really know how the draft would play out. We got beat out, because imo Jerry Reese refused to give up draft picks to trade up and other teams knew who we would be targeting (Conklin, floyd) and beat us to the punch.
This is why some chafe at the view of "they are the professionals and they know best." While that is often true, people and organizations in every walk of life make mistakes, usually as a result of poor preparation.
On a side note, gotta love Ozzie Newsome in his first draft going against Modell's preferences. Some cojones there. And topped it off by taking Ray Lewis with his other first rounder.
This is why some chafe at the view of "they are the professionals and they know best." While that is often true, people and organizations in every walk of life make mistakes, usually as a result of poor preparation.
This is such an important point. People just assume that because someone is in a position of authority they must know what they are doing. Reading Moneyball really opened my eyes as to how incompetent people running sports franchises often are. Really mind-blowing levels of incompetence are not rare at all.
George Young and his scounting group certainly weren't blameless in this situation, but if Reeves hadn't been beating the drum for Jones, they might have made a better choice.
Quote:
This is why some chafe at the view of "they are the professionals and they know best." While that is often true, people and organizations in every walk of life make mistakes, usually as a result of poor preparation.
This is such an important point. People just assume that because someone is in a position of authority they must know what they are doing. Reading Moneyball really opened my eyes as to how incompetent people running sports franchises often are. Really mind-blowing levels of incompetence are not rare at all.
Ha..isn't this true for any occupation? I mean, I don't know about you but I've encountered incompetence at almost every level through my career...some places are worse than others but there are all sorts of people in all sorts of jobs that really shouldn't be there.
You're what? You're shitting us, right?
No gold jacket for you!
What make me shake my head is that whenever DG or the Giants brass is criticized here you've got a bunch of posters who insticiviely defer to DG not on the merits but simply because he's the GM.
Perfect example is saying maybe DG could have gotten more for OBJ if he made a few more calls....and a bunch of posters responding by saying of course DG must have gotten the best deal possible because he knows what he's doing.
What make me shake my head is that whenever DG or the Giants brass is criticized here you've got a bunch of posters who insticiviely defer to DG not on the merits but simply because he's the GM.
Perfect example is saying maybe DG could have gotten more for OBJ if he made a few more calls....and a bunch of posters responding by saying of course DG must have gotten the best deal possible because he knows what he's doing.
I agree it's perfectly reasonable to question DG but in that particular instance it's impossible to know what the answer is unless you're in the room and working intimately with them. I guess my point is that no one knows so might as well give the people who do it for a living the benefit of the doubt vs. a fans random take on the situation. I happen to give him some leeway due to the mess he inherited but certainly others don't, and that's fine. It's been a long cold winter in Giants land the last 5 yrs or so that's for sure!
The story wasn't so much they didn't have a plan, but the politics of the Giants organization and Dan Reeves refusal to play along. Remember, back in 1993, the Giants wanted to replace Handley with Coughlin (who stayed at BC...he says because he wanted to beat Notre Dame, but I think it's because I was a student there at the time and he just wanted to hang out with me). The 2nd choice was Dave Wannstadt, but he didn't want to be in the division with the Cowboys so he chose the Bears.
Reeves didn't have a job. The Giants didn't have a coach. Frank Gifford played the role of matchmaker and got Reeves and interview when he told Mara that Reeves would agree to the Giants structure. And it was fine until 1994. By 1996, everyone knew Reeves was gone, but Mara didn't want to pay him 2 years severance.
So from the organizational standpoint, Jones would make sense, because Reeves wanted him. But they should have contingency planned and had potential trades lined up. It's funny that he mentions that with the internet and twitter, it's now easier to understand what teams are thinking.
Also, as an aside, Ogden didn't want to play for the Giants. He said as much before the draft and threatened not to come if drafted. I think the Giants had some concerns that they would have another Gary Zimmerman on their hands.
But this story reads more about the dangers of politics and not having your organization aligned and how it can doom you to bad decisions. Young had a habit of clashing with his coaches on players and the draft. He did it over and over with Parcells. From the outside at least, it seems like Gettleman and Shurmur are aligned.
Leading up to the draft, Lawrence Phillips was a big story and the Ravens said they’d draft him if he were available. And the Giants believed them, lol.
If it wasn't for the 2nd rounders (Strahan, Tiki, Toomer, et al), we really would've sucked.
The scary and fascinating part to me is (what some others have also said)
A) they didn't have access to medicals and know Jones was blind in one eye
B) they had no plan for if one of their top 4 was picked before #5
C) how far this lack of preparation pervaded. Gabriel puts the blame on himself and the scouting dept, but it's not just them it's the GM, the coach, everyone in the war room
and I find this part of it just anecdotally fascinating:
D) they spent multiple days discussing one player out of a list of a couple hundred
And I do not put Apple or Flowers in this category. I think both of those were simply bad picks. Not due to a lack of preparation (from what we know today), but IMO poor talent judgment.
On the other hand, imagine if Young did give into the panic and move down nine slots in the first round for a seventh rounder? The AOL chat room would have exploded.
On a side note, gotta love Ozzie Newsome in his first draft going against Modell's preferences. Some cojones there. And topped it off by taking Ray Lewis with his other first rounder.
Belichick taught Newsome well.
Now, none of us are actually in their meetings so there's no way to know for sure, but at least so far entering year 2 there doesn't seem to be any coaches vs. GM/scouts disagreements to the level described in this article (I'm sure there are some).
Also recalls some of the stories that have filtered out about Reese drafting some guys that Coughlin didn't like or didn't think fit our scheme (Clint Sintim, for example)
You gotta problem with sunglasses?
I still think they go Gary. They have to build the DL.
The story wasn't so much they didn't have a plan, but the politics of the Giants organization and Dan Reeves refusal to play along. Remember, back in 1993, the Giants wanted to replace Handley with Coughlin (who stayed at BC...he says because he wanted to beat Notre Dame, but I think it's because I was a student there at the time and he just wanted to hang out with me). The 2nd choice was Dave Wannstadt, but he didn't want to be in the division with the Cowboys so he chose the Bears.
Reeves didn't have a job. The Giants didn't have a coach. Frank Gifford played the role of matchmaker and got Reeves and interview when he told Mara that Reeves would agree to the Giants structure. And it was fine until 1994. By 1996, everyone knew Reeves was gone, but Mara didn't want to pay him 2 years severance.
So from the organizational standpoint, Jones would make sense, because Reeves wanted him. But they should have contingency planned and had potential trades lined up. It's funny that he mentions that with the internet and twitter, it's now easier to understand what teams are thinking.
Also, as an aside, Ogden didn't want to play for the Giants. He said as much before the draft and threatened not to come if drafted. I think the Giants had some concerns that they would have another Gary Zimmerman on their hands.
But this story reads more about the dangers of politics and not having your organization aligned and how it can doom you to bad decisions. Young had a habit of clashing with his coaches on players and the draft. He did it over and over with Parcells. From the outside at least, it seems like Gettleman and Shurmur are aligned.
Quote:
Is you think a franchise would learn from its mistakes, but there we were a few years ago in the same situation, and what did it net us? Eli Apple aka. this years 4th rounder.
Totally different situations. The giants had the 10th overall pick. Too many picks before 10, so no way to really know how the draft would play out. We got beat out, because imo Jerry Reese refused to give up draft picks to trade up and other teams knew who we would be targeting (Conklin, floyd) and beat us to the punch.
They're similar situations. The whole point is each time they got stuck looking at a group with no guarantees any of them would be there, got caught flat footed, and made a bad pick in response.
I agree with you on one point, if Reese really wanted Conklin or Floyd, he should have moved up and got them.
I did a fantasy hockey playoff draft yesterday. Prior to the draft, I ranked my top 100 guys. Whenever my pick came up, I took the highest ranked guy. Not hard!!!! Yeah, I know...fantasy...but still! Just dont see how you could go in to a draft-a REAL draft-without having the majority of the draft eligible players ranked so there would be so mysteries when your pick came up.
I did a fantasy hockey playoff draft yesterday. Prior to the draft, I ranked my top 100 guys. Whenever my pick came up, I took the highest ranked guy. Not hard!!!! Yeah, I know...fantasy...but still! Just dont see how you could go in to a draft-a REAL draft-without having the majority of the draft eligible players ranked so there would be so mysteries when your pick came up.
The writer was a scout with the Giants at the time, involved in the draft process and in the war room on draft day.
he blames himself (and the other scouts) and says he sat on the story so long out of respect for the other people in the room.
I find it 100% believable.
Reeves was horrible and only looked good because ANYONE was an upgrade from Handley at that point. So many poor personnel decisions.. McCaffrey, Stover, etc etc
The idea that the Giants did not know about Jones' eye is astonishing. Roughly 10 seconds after the pick was made, the media was talking about the fact that he had an eye problem.
This is why some chafe at the view of "they are the professionals and they know best." While that is often true, people and organizations in every walk of life make mistakes, usually as a result of poor preparation.
Lot of that going on in the Giants last 10 years. It might seem incredibly baffling why eli+wco, but as you say, orgs do incredibly baffling stupid things all the time. I'm sure Mara-Tisch has been unduly influenced by some analytics stupidity about qbs and 70 % completion percentage bs, because this org keeps mentioning that arbitrary meaningless stat as a goal.
The scary and fascinating part to me is (what some others have also said)
A) they didn't have access to medicals and know Jones was blind in one eye
B) they had no plan for if one of their top 4 was picked before #5
C) how far this lack of preparation pervaded. Gabriel puts the blame on himself and the scouting dept, but it's not just them it's the GM, the coach, everyone in the war room
and I find this part of it just anecdotally fascinating:
D) they spent multiple days discussing one player out of a list of a couple hundred
And I do not put Apple or Flowers in this category. I think both of those were simply bad picks. Not due to a lack of preparation (from what we know today), but IMO poor talent judgment.
Prince likely was due to lack of prep. He unexpectedly drop to us due to personality issues which we seemed unaware of, not having scouted hi properly since we weren't expecting him to drop.
Heck, did we properly check out Wilson? Another panic pick.
That's a bit misleading. First off, after the Jones draft fiasco a lot of people were fired. Secondly, it was in 1996, which isn't really "a few years ago". It was 20 years to the Apple pick. And I don't think at the 10th pick the Giants had 9 guys and Apple became the de facto guy, even though the draft didn't go like they had hoped.
Quote:
Is you think a franchise would learn from its mistakes, but there we were a few years ago in the same situation, and what did it net us? Eli Apple aka. this years 4th rounder.
That's a bit misleading. First off, after the Jones draft fiasco a lot of people were fired. Secondly, it was in 1996, which isn't really "a few years ago". It was 20 years to the Apple pick. And I don't think at the 10th pick the Giants had 9 guys and Apple became the de facto guy, even though the draft didn't go like they had hoped.
I think you misread the "few years ago" as a few years later. I was referring to the Apple pick only being a few years ago.
The two are similar because in each case, they had no plan B when things didn't go their way. Reese targeted Conklin and Floyd, basically had it leak out so the entire NFL knew, and then were shocked when they weren't there. They didn't have a plan B, what to do if neither fell. You're right they didn't have 9 guys and Eli was the defacto, they had 2 they were targeting and neither fell. They knee jerked and picked Apple who was your classic Jerry Reese "looks good on paper" player.
The story wasn't so much they didn't have a plan, but the politics of the Giants organization and Dan Reeves refusal to play along. Remember, back in 1993, the Giants wanted to replace Handley with Coughlin (who stayed at BC...he says because he wanted to beat Notre Dame, but I think it's because I was a student there at the time and he just wanted to hang out with me). The 2nd choice was Dave Wannstadt, but he didn't want to be in the division with the Cowboys so he chose the Bears.
Reeves didn't have a job. The Giants didn't have a coach. Frank Gifford played the role of matchmaker and got Reeves and interview when he told Mara that Reeves would agree to the Giants structure. And it was fine until 1994. By 1996, everyone knew Reeves was gone, but Mara didn't want to pay him 2 years severance.
So from the organizational standpoint, Jones would make sense, because Reeves wanted him. But they should have contingency planned and had potential trades lined up. It's funny that he mentions that with the internet and twitter, it's now easier to understand what teams are thinking.
Also, as an aside, Ogden didn't want to play for the Giants. He said as much before the draft and threatened not to come if drafted. I think the Giants had some concerns that they would have another Gary Zimmerman on their hands.
But this story reads more about the dangers of politics and not having your organization aligned and how it can doom you to bad decisions. Young had a habit of clashing with his coaches on players and the draft. He did it over and over with Parcells. From the outside at least, it seems like Gettleman and Shurmur are aligned.
Nice job here.
And remember, too, Young was very, very slow to figuring out the cap model. I contend to this day we missed out on good FAs because Young was just not comfortable managing that piece. Talk about playing checkers...
It was at a position of need even though the slot was likely a few lower than where they were picked.
Doesn't mean they didn't have a plan. They made poor picks.
Most mock drafts had Apple going to 15 or so.
It was at a position of need even though the slot was likely a few lower than where they were picked.
Doesn't mean they didn't have a plan. They made poor picks.
Apple always seemed more a panic pick to me than the other 3, maybe just because there was so much hype about us loving Conklin and Floyd. I may be wrong and I don't think anyone in the org would ever admit it if I was right, so it's not worth dwelling on.
Moral of the story, if you can't evaluate talent, it doesn't matter if you get they guy you want or not, because you can still wind up with an Ereck Flowers unless you scout and evaluate well.
Quote:
was a pick much like Pugh, Wilson and Flowers.
It was at a position of need even though the slot was likely a few lower than where they were picked.
Doesn't mean they didn't have a plan. They made poor picks.
Apple always seemed more a panic pick to me than the other 3, maybe just because there was so much hype about us loving Conklin and Floyd. I may be wrong and I don't think anyone in the org would ever admit it if I was right, so it's not worth dwelling on.
Moral of the story, if you can't evaluate talent, it doesn't matter if you get they guy you want or not, because you can still wind up with an Ereck Flowers unless you scout and evaluate well.
That's damn right.
We have been so piss poor at drafting the past decade that it is the main driver on why we are where we are today.
I'd almost take incompetence in not having a plan over incompetence in scouting of players.
Quote:
was a pick much like Pugh, Wilson and Flowers.
It was at a position of need even though the slot was likely a few lower than where they were picked.
Doesn't mean they didn't have a plan. They made poor picks.
Apple always seemed more a panic pick to me than the other 3, maybe just because there was so much hype about us loving Conklin and Floyd. I may be wrong and I don't think anyone in the org would ever admit it if I was right, so it's not worth dwelling on.
Moral of the story, if you can't evaluate talent, it doesn't matter if you get they guy you want or not, because you can still wind up with an Ereck Flowers unless you scout and evaluate well.
Someone was going to draft Flowers in the 1st round. He was mocked anywhere from #6 to #27 before the draft. A number of sites had him as the top OL in the draft. He would have been a bust at #27 as much as he was at #9. So were ALL the scouts and talent evaluators in the NFL wrong? Cause based on his NFL production he should not have even been drafted or should have been a 7th round pick like Bobby Hart. Many times it is on the player. The talent is there but the player just doesn't develop.
They have had much worse drafts more recently.
It was at a position of need even though the slot was likely a few lower than where they were picked.
Doesn't mean they didn't have a plan. They made poor picks.
Exactly. And how many years did BBI argue that the Giants drafted "Best Available" player. They rarely did that at 1. They always went with the "Best Available Player at a Position of Significant Need"
The idea that Apple was a "panic" pick is a lot of bullshit that's been repeated so much that it is now viewed as fact despite the lack of any real evidence other than some "leaks" about Reese coveting Conklin and Floyd. Then Conklin and Floyd get selected, and voila a fairy tale is born.
There is really no reason to believe that Apple wasn't at the top of their board at that moment. Apple checked a lot of boxes and had Giants written all over him. I still can't figure out why that was a surprise.
The giants bread and butter over the years has been from the draft but man have they had some whoppers. And to make matters worse the giants are loyal and patient, sometimes to a fault. In this case the patience never paid off....Jones played a lot.
Probably because he couldn’t see...
Jarod Bunch? He an exception to bad drafting? He was an awful pick. Barely played 3 years in the NFL. Mentioning him in the breath as Rodney Hampton is heresy.
Quote:
First rounders with exception of Hampton and bunch were absolutely brutal. The giants suffered most of the nineties for it.
Jarod Bunch? He an exception to bad drafting? He was an awful pick. Barely played 3 years in the NFL. Mentioning him in the breath as Rodney Hampton is heresy.
FYI NYT article with Bunch’s side of the story re injuries.
Link - ( New Window )