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Why Eli is Still the Quarterback

Go Terps : 4/10/2019 1:22 pm
On the crazy Russell Wilson/Cowherd 3 way deal thread jtgiants (who's been a fantastic resource for all of us this and past offseasons) said the following about the Giants cutting Eli:

Quote:
The Giants cutting Eli now would be a dick move and sever his relationship with the Giants by forcing his retirement. They won't do that to him or his legacy. Like it or not it isn't happening.

I'm not trying to put jtgiants on the spot...I think he's plugged in and giving us an accurate perspective into the Giants' thinking.

You can not operate a football team this way. It's very difficult to win in the NFL if you're making critical decisions based on post-football relationships and legacies. If ever there were a time to ask "What would Belichick do?", this is it.

I very rarely start threads, but I felt this deserved one because jtgiants captured perfectly why Eli is still the QB - and it's not just about winning in 2019.
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Manning does not offer zero value.  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 9:21 am : link
He can be a valuable asset in managing a game, and making a tough throw when needed.

The NFL is fluid. I know it doesn't seem like it, but with a couple of right moves and a couple of good bounces, a team can go from a sub .500 team to fighting for a playoff spot pretty quickly.

Manning can be a placeholder, while we find the new QB, and hey, what if? What if the team gets a couple breaks next season, we're sitting at 5-4, or 6-4, and in the hunt. Things are clicking, team starts playing with a little confidence. That's where having an Eli Manning over a Ryan Fitzpatrick has value.

And that may not happen either, and we may go 5-11 again next year as many of you predict, and we'll be looking at the top 10 in the draft again. Okay, well there's no harm done if that happens either. Insert the new QB (or draft him at that time), and move on from Manning.

The real problem with this conversation is that those that support management's decision to hang with Eli also see the need to draft a new QB and have a plan for the future. They all to a man acknowledge that and want that. Conversely, those of you that don't want Manning on the team anymore in any shape or form can't, or refuse to, acknowledge that in some scenarios he can still provide value. That's the stalemate. You want Manning gone at all costs, even if it means we have a scrub at QB for a year. And as much as you beat the drum for logic and reason, that is the illogical, narrow minded, and unreasonable take.
RE: Where did Peyton and his dead arm fit....  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/12/2019 9:32 am : link
In comment 14383451 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
when the Broncos last won the Superbowl?

On their backs collecting a ring as the Trent Dilfer of that team. I'm sure you're trying to make a point there, but I'm not sure what it is. That a team that's constructed incredibly efficiently can overcome having a washed-up Manning at QB?
Like I just said....  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 9:36 am : link
you can't, or refuse to, see the point.
RE: Like I just said....  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/12/2019 9:46 am : link
In comment 14383503 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
you can't, or refuse to, see the point.

Yes, the obstinate one here is clearly me. No question about it.

I guess you think if you say anything often enough it'll be true, whether it's about Eli, or about people failing to see your point. Can't wait for your inevitable chest-puff thread after Eli's first big game this season. That'll be a blast.
RE: RE: Like I just said....  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 9:47 am : link
In comment 14383514 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14383503 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


you can't, or refuse to, see the point.


Yes, the obstinate one here is clearly me. No question about it.

I guess you think if you say anything often enough it'll be true, whether it's about Eli, or about people failing to see your point. Can't wait for your inevitable chest-puff thread after Eli's first big game this season. That'll be a blast.


Seems to me the ones that are trying to will something into existence are the ones starting two to three threads a day on this subject.
Eli is the starter next year....  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 9:49 am : link
That's what I thought would happen, and what I think should happen.

So what exactly am I trying to make true?
Personally..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/12/2019 9:59 am : link
I can't wait for other comments:

Quote:
Can't wait for your inevitable chest-puff thread after Eli's first big game this season. That'll be a blast.


Always love to see the D give up 400+ yards and a late TD to overcome a late score by NYG only to hear that the game was lost on a 1st quarter INT. Those are much more illuminating.....
RE: Personally..  
dep026 : 4/12/2019 10:04 am : link
In comment 14383536 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I can't wait for other comments:



Quote:


Can't wait for your inevitable chest-puff thread after Eli's first big game this season. That'll be a blast.



Always love to see the D give up 400+ yards and a late TD to overcome a late score by NYG only to hear that the game was lost on a 1st quarter INT. Those are much more illuminating.....


I’m partial to Eli leading us from behind with multiple TDs in the 4th quarter only to fail to get a score with under a minute to go therefore showing he doesn’t have it anymore.
RE: ...  
PatersonPlank : 4/12/2019 10:09 am : link
In comment 14383286 christian said:
Quote:
This is my broken record, but back to the original question; why is Manning still the QB?

As a fan I always want the team building towards a championship. That pursuit is a continuum sometimes, I accept that.

I hope it's a given to fans the QB has a disproportionately big impact on a team relative to other positions. It's the most important position.

A QB in my view has three phases in his career
; ascending, peaking, declining. The bounds are different based on myriad factors. Very often the peak is unimpressive, virtually never is the decline impressive.

Manning's peak was impressive. Is his decline? I'd say no, which makes him equal to every QB short of Elway, Favre, and Brady in the last 25 years.

So in his decline what value does Manning serve to the Giants? If the goal is to always be building toward a championship, where does Manning fit?


Manning is keepin the most important position of the field stable and capable, while we build up the numerous areas in the team that we need to. That is what value he is adding, and its a critical part. You can't change everything and also QB, that would become a complete mess and actually hurt the process. The players would have no hope, becomes disgruntled, and the good ones leave. New free agents wouldn't want to come, and the rookie QB would be taking a pounding that could actually hurt his development. When the team has improved enough, hopefully after this season, plug in the future QB and deal with the growing pains under a rookie cheap contract. Ideally he could sit for a year to learn the system, gain the respect of the players, and minimize the growing pains.
.  
Go Terps : 4/12/2019 10:35 am : link
Even the guys supporting keeping Eli have a hard time being complimentary of his game. Faint praise and backhanded compliments left and right.
If you read my comments as faint praise....  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 10:38 am : link
or backhanded comments, it's only because I'm measuring my words to avoid the verbal onslaught that would ensue if I said that I do, in fact, think Eli is still capable of playing at championship level. Because I know my opinion would be dismissed if I said that and I'm trying to have a "constructive" dialog about it.
RE: Eli is the starter next year....  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/12/2019 10:38 am : link
In comment 14383521 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
That's what I thought would happen, and what I think should happen.

So what exactly am I trying to make true?

Only one team in the NFC has lost more games than the Giants dating back to their last SB victory in 2011. Let's not pretend like this organization is infallible just because they happen to be making a decision you agree with.

Throwing Peyton's role on a stacked Broncos team out as some sort of guiding example absolutely comes across as an attempt to justify your opinion as anything other than the same sentimentality that this thread's premise is based upon.
RE: RE: Eli is the starter next year....  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 10:40 am : link
In comment 14383595 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14383521 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


That's what I thought would happen, and what I think should happen.

So what exactly am I trying to make true?


Only one team in the NFC has lost more games than the Giants dating back to their last SB victory in 2011. Let's not pretend like this organization is infallible just because they happen to be making a decision you agree with.

Throwing Peyton's role on a stacked Broncos team out as some sort of guiding example absolutely comes across as an attempt to justify your opinion as anything other than the same sentimentality that this thread's premise is based upon.


It wasn't used as a guiding example. It was used as a response to a very specific question.

Why are you locked in on that one single example? There were other examples given.
RE: .  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/12/2019 10:42 am : link
In comment 14383590 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Even the guys supporting keeping Eli have a hard time being complimentary of his game. Faint praise and backhanded compliments left and right.


Outside of Barkley, every player on the team is only getting faint praise.

That's what happens on bad teams where fingers are pointed in multiple directions. Name a player other than Barkley who gets or got a ton of praise? Collins? Nope. People soured on him. Beckham? Ha ha.

This isn't the point being debated anyway is it? There are basically a large group of posters who flat out believe Eli can't play anymore. That's always the point being kicked until mutilation.
RE: RE: RE: Eli is the starter next year....  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/12/2019 10:44 am : link
In comment 14383602 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14383595 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14383521 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


That's what I thought would happen, and what I think should happen.

So what exactly am I trying to make true?


Only one team in the NFC has lost more games than the Giants dating back to their last SB victory in 2011. Let's not pretend like this organization is infallible just because they happen to be making a decision you agree with.

Throwing Peyton's role on a stacked Broncos team out as some sort of guiding example absolutely comes across as an attempt to justify your opinion as anything other than the same sentimentality that this thread's premise is based upon.



It wasn't used as a guiding example. It was used as a response to a very specific question.

Why are you locked in on that one single example? There were other examples given.

Because that one stuck out as a wild example. And just like you were trying to avoid the onslaught of pushback for saying Eli is still capable of championship-level football, I may have been doing the same by avoiding saying that Eli has never been in Elway's league as a QB, even in their respective primes. But your Elway example is much more consistent with what we should be hoping for than your Peyton example. The more recent Broncos team won that SB in spite of Peyton, not because of him.
How about Kurt Warner?  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 10:45 am : link
?
RE: If you read my comments as faint praise....  
Go Terps : 4/12/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14383593 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
or backhanded comments, it's only because I'm measuring my words to avoid the verbal onslaught that would ensue if I said that I do, in fact, think Eli is still capable of playing at championship level. Because I know my opinion would be dismissed if I said that and I'm trying to have a "constructive" dialog about it.


You do it even there. You don't say, "Eli is playing at a championship level". You say "is capable of playing at championship level".

And it's not just you and other posters, it's the team. They don't say, "Eli is still playing well", they say, "Eli can still play".

There seems to be an acknowledgement that he hasn't been getting the job done, even if the belief is that he still can.
RE: How about Kurt Warner?  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/12/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14383616 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
?

I dislike him so much that I didn't even want to entertain that one.
RE: RE: If you read my comments as faint praise....  
bigbluehoya : 4/12/2019 10:55 am : link
In comment 14383619 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14383593 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


or backhanded comments, it's only because I'm measuring my words to avoid the verbal onslaught that would ensue if I said that I do, in fact, think Eli is still capable of playing at championship level. Because I know my opinion would be dismissed if I said that and I'm trying to have a "constructive" dialog about it.



You do it even there. You don't say, "Eli is playing at a championship level". You say "is capable of playing at championship level".

And it's not just you and other posters, it's the team. They don't say, "Eli is still playing well", they say, "Eli can still play".

There seems to be an acknowledgement that he hasn't been getting the job done, even if the belief is that he still can.


there's a lot of religion in it. "Eli can still play" are precisely the unassailable set of words that the viewpoint requires.

Which doesn't qualify it as 'wrong' out of hand, IMO. But for people to act like the opposite viewpoint is crazy or uninformed is what I find baffling.
RE: The way this thread has evolved  
schabadoo : 4/12/2019 11:01 am : link
In comment 14383150 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
is comparable to how this franchise has evolved....


To be fair, it started terribly, with Terp intentionally misstating someone else's post. Got it so bad that the OP came to the thread and corrected him.

But the agenda is strong.
For the uninformed...  
bw in dc : 4/12/2019 11:16 am : link
the Elway example is beyond dumb.

Elway in ‘97 and ‘98 still had a great asset - his arm talent. That never went away. His only skill that eroded was his maneuverability. So it made sense to continue to ride with him.

Same with Favre. At least you knew he could still make every throw.

Eli’s physical skills are eroding. If you can’t see it, you’re either too stubborn or don’t understand the game. He can’t make every throw game after game. It’s just not there. And his movement is just brutally bad. So what’s his value? His mind? That’s been overrated since he arrived. He’s been a turnover machine with his “great decision” making.

Britt, Fat-Mara, dep et al are the part of the fan base Mara targets. The dreamers; those who have endless hope. They are delusional enough to think - “well, if Brady and Brees can do it, so can our 38 year old 2x champion...” This type of thinking is hindering this organization’s ability to think clearly and get to a brighter future.

And the Peyton/Denver example is almost as dumb. Indeed, Peyton was washed up. But that D was tremendous and controlled the game by creating great field position and turnovers. Manning was a passenger and needed to make a few plays per game, especially in the playoffs where Denver had home field.

Remind of the great D we have so Eli can manage the game, please.

Fat-Mara  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 11:20 am : link
lol
The people  
dep026 : 4/12/2019 11:24 am : link
Who listen to bw as far as the direction of the franchis are probably avid followers of Stephen A Smith and Skip Bayless... so if you find yourself agreeing with him... there’s a damn good chance you should alter your views.
RE: The people  
Big Blue '56 : 4/12/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14383673 dep026 said:
Quote:
Who listen to bw as far as the direction of the franchis are probably avid followers of Stephen A Smith and Skip Bayless... so if you find yourself agreeing with him... there’s a damn good chance you should alter your views.


bw is a Giants’ troll and has been for the 18+ years I know him.
bw was also a huge fan of how Daniel Snyder runs his franchise....  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 11:26 am : link
so there's that.
RE: bw was also a huge fan of how Daniel Snyder runs his franchise....  
Big Blue '56 : 4/12/2019 11:34 am : link
In comment 14383678 Britt in VA said:

Quote:
so there's that.


😂😂
Still laughing over....  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 12:01 pm : link
"Fat-Mara". It's so stupid I can't stop chuckling about it.
RE: Still laughing over....  
Big Blue '56 : 4/12/2019 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14383752 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
"Fat-Mara". It's so stupid I can't stop chuckling about it.


Yeah, he’s been calling him that for awhile now..
don't ever change, b-dub....  
Britt in VA : 4/12/2019 12:08 pm : link
it's been entertaining.
RE: bw was also a huge fan of how Daniel Snyder runs his franchise....  
bw in dc : 4/12/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14383678 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
so there's that.


That's been mischaracterized, and mostly by my arch nemesis Fat-Mara.

RE: RE: The people  
bw in dc : 4/12/2019 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14383676 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:


bw is a Giants’ troll and has been for the 18+ years I know him.


I'm the biggest Giants fan on this board. And the most honest. ;)
RE: RE: RE: The people  
Big Blue '56 : 4/12/2019 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14383768 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14383676 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:




bw is a Giants’ troll and has been for the 18+ years I know him.



I'm the biggest Giants fan on this board. And the most honest. ;)


😂😂😂
RE: RE: bw was also a huge fan of how Daniel Snyder runs his franchise....  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/12/2019 12:14 pm : link
In comment 14383767 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14383678 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


so there's that.



That's been mischaracterized, and mostly by my arch nemesis Fat-Mara.


I was picturing more like my Archie (since you dislike the name so much) vs. Jughead!!
Is this..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/12/2019 12:15 pm : link
Fat-Mara??

Elway, Rivers, and Warner  
Lambuth_Special : 4/12/2019 12:50 pm : link
Were all playing better relative to Eli before their string of comeback seasons.

Elway was a top-five QB in 1995 and 1996 before their eventually Superbowl runs in 97' and 98'. His team was also the Number 1 seed in the AFC in 96'! How is that situation comparable to Eli?!

In the stretch that Rivers missed the playoffs 7 of 8 years, the chargers had four winning seasons and one .500 season. They only actually had three losing seasons in this stretch. Plus Rivers played well throughout, throwing 33 touchdowns in their 2016 5-11 season. It's a lot easier to make the case that the team improvement is greater priority than replacing the QB.

Warner is probably the best example, except he hadn't been a full time starter for a while until was re-instated in 2007. He went 5-6 and played above-average - not great - which was enough to get him the job in 2008. Most similar to Eli but even he was playing better at the time.
RE: Elway, Rivers, and Warner  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/12/2019 3:11 pm : link
In comment 14383846 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:
Were all playing better relative to Eli before their string of comeback seasons.

Elway was a top-five QB in 1995 and 1996 before their eventually Superbowl runs in 97' and 98'. His team was also the Number 1 seed in the AFC in 96'! How is that situation comparable to Eli?!

In the stretch that Rivers missed the playoffs 7 of 8 years, the chargers had four winning seasons and one .500 season. They only actually had three losing seasons in this stretch. Plus Rivers played well throughout, throwing 33 touchdowns in their 2016 5-11 season. It's a lot easier to make the case that the team improvement is greater priority than replacing the QB.

Warner is probably the best example, except he hadn't been a full time starter for a while until was re-instated in 2007. He went 5-6 and played above-average - not great - which was enough to get him the job in 2008. Most similar to Eli but even he was playing better at the time.

More ESPN imagineering fake news. Warner qbr 3 years before Arizona, 67, 72, 86. Elway 60s and 70s during the prime of his career.

And derp, Rivers always generally had a better rating. Helps when you play with HoFers on offense, while Eli played with 0.
RE: Is this..  
Jimmy Googs : 4/12/2019 3:36 pm : link
In comment 14383776 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Fat-Mara??



You tell us...
RE: RE: Elway, Rivers, and Warner  
Lambuth_Special : 4/12/2019 3:46 pm : link
In comment 14384066 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:


More ESPN imagineering fake news. Warner qbr 3 years before Arizona, 67, 72, 86. Elway 60s and 70s during the prime of his career.

And derp, Rivers always generally had a better rating. Helps when you play with HoFers on offense, while Eli played with 0.


Learn reading comprehension, then re-read what I wrote, then try replying again.
Rivers had 33 TDs season the one year his team sucked?  
dep026 : 4/12/2019 3:50 pm : link
Hmmmm... Eli has 35 one year his team went 6-10 :)
RE: Rivers had 33 TDs season the one year his team sucked?  
Lambuth_Special : 4/12/2019 3:55 pm : link
In comment 14384120 dep026 said:
Quote:
Hmmmm... Eli has 35 one year his team went 6-10 :)


Yeah, it was a good season by Eli, at age 35, it was a reasonable position to try reloading for one last run behind him, much like the Chargers did with Rivers.

The situation is different then what is happening now in 2019, though I've actually become more ok with it and the idea of building the team and adding the QB.

I, however, strongly disagree with some of the things that jtgiants has intimated, namely that the team is trying to engage in short-term moves to win in 2019.
The more and more I think about a NYG strategy  
Jimmy Googs : 4/12/2019 4:01 pm : link
of trying to restructure the team and win now, the more and more I feel we will be disappointed in both...
...  
christian : 4/12/2019 4:25 pm : link
At ages 36 & 37 Peyton Manning was a combined 26-6, including arguably the best season a QB has ever had and a Super Bowl appearance.

At ages 36 & 37 Elway was a combined 25-6 including his highest TD numbers of his career and a Super Bowl Victory.

At ages 36 & 37 Eli Manning was 8-23.

Elway and Peyton were both playing great football on fantastic teams at the age Eli Manning will be going into next season.

Can that be said said about Eli Manning? Is he playing fantastic football on a fantastic team?
RE: RE: Elway, Rivers, and Warner  
santacruzom : 4/12/2019 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14384066 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:

And derp, Rivers always generally had a better rating. Helps when you play with HoFers on offense, while Eli played with 0.


I dunno. If you make a top-10 list of the receivers from both the Giants and Chargers since 2004, how many spots do you have to go before you hit a Charger? What Charger would rank ahead of Burress, Nicks, OBJ, and even Cruz?
RE: RE: RE: Elway, Rivers, and Warner  
dep026 : 4/12/2019 4:56 pm : link
In comment 14384202 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 14384066 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:



And derp, Rivers always generally had a better rating. Helps when you play with HoFers on offense, while Eli played with 0.



I dunno. If you make a top-10 list of the receivers from both the Giants and Chargers since 2004, how many spots do you have to go before you hit a Charger? What Charger would rank ahead of Burress, Nicks, OBJ, and even Cruz?


Keenan Allen is definitely in that group.
Vincent Jackson isn’t far behind.

Oh and there’s that whole Antonio Gates guy ;)
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 4/12/2019 4:57 pm : link
In comment 14384162 christian said:
Quote:
At ages 36 & 37 Peyton Manning was a combined 26-6, including arguably the best season a QB has ever had and a Super Bowl appearance.

At ages 36 & 37 Elway was a combined 25-6 including his highest TD numbers of his career and a Super Bowl Victory.

At ages 36 & 37 Eli Manning was 8-23.

Elway and Peyton were both playing great football on fantastic teams at the age Eli Manning will be going into next season.

Can that be said said about Eli Manning? Is he playing fantastic football on a fantastic team?


Excellent summary. Says quite a bit.

Of course, expect the typical retorts - they had better Ds, better coaches, better drafting, better OLs, etc.
The dog ate my homework  
Jimmy Googs : 4/12/2019 5:17 pm : link
...
I feel like some here would want to toss the lifeless corpse of Eli  
NoGainDayne : 4/12/2019 5:25 pm : link
out there because it's not possible to prove it couldn't play.

Just improve the Oline! Barkley just has to take the ball from him!




RE: RE: ...  
christian : 4/12/2019 5:26 pm : link
In comment 14384216 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14384162 christian said:


Quote:


At ages 36 & 37 Peyton Manning was a combined 26-6, including arguably the best season a QB has ever had and a Super Bowl appearance.

At ages 36 & 37 Elway was a combined 25-6 including his highest TD numbers of his career and a Super Bowl Victory.

At ages 36 & 37 Eli Manning was 8-23.

Elway and Peyton were both playing great football on fantastic teams at the age Eli Manning will be going into next season.

Can that be said said about Eli Manning? Is he playing fantastic football on a fantastic team?



Excellent summary. Says quite a bit.

Of course, expect the typical retorts - they had better Ds, better coaches, better drafting, better OLs, etc.


My opinion is and has always been the Giants are not close to championship-level, and that Eli Manning will not be viable when the roster catches up.

The cautionary tale with Peyton and Elway is they were dynamite at 36 & 37 on ascending teams. As their play declined, and it did, the surrounding teams could buoy them.

If the Giants won a ring with Manning at at age 38 or 39, that would be the most improbable championship in NFL history.
Slightly disagree on Elway...  
bw in dc : 4/12/2019 5:36 pm : link
He played very well his last three years. His numbers in '98, when Denver won their second SB, were very good. He just missed four games with the rub injury at San Diego.
RE: Slightly disagree on Elway...  
christian : 4/12/2019 5:45 pm : link
In comment 14384263 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He played very well his last three years. His numbers in '98, when Denver won their second SB, were very good. He just missed four games with the rub injury at San Diego.


Oh absolutely -- Elway's final year wasn't in the same neighborhood as Peyton's.

I think history remembers Elway a little less kindly than warranted. He was very good in 96, 97 and banged up in 98.

There's no question TD was great, and a big part of that great stretch. But Elway wasn't a passenger.
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