On the crazy Russell Wilson/Cowherd 3 way deal thread jtgiants (who's been a fantastic resource for all of us this and past offseasons) said the following about the Giants cutting Eli:
| The Giants cutting Eli now would be a dick move and sever his relationship with the Giants by forcing his retirement. They won't do that to him or his legacy. Like it or not it isn't happening. |
I'm not trying to put jtgiants on the spot...I think he's plugged in and giving us an accurate perspective into the Giants' thinking.
You can not operate a football team this way. It's very difficult to win in the NFL if you're making critical decisions based on post-football relationships and legacies. If ever there were a time to ask "What would Belichick do?", this is it.
I very rarely start threads, but I felt this deserved one because jtgiants captured perfectly why Eli is still the QB - and it's not just about winning in 2019.
I don’t believe him but I also don’t think sentimentality is the right word. Eli can still play, not as good as we need but he’s still capable of running the offense. I don’t think Mara sees a big enough sure fire upgrade to risk damaging the relationship he has with Eli, and whatever their plans are post football.
Simply put if Andrew Luck was coming out this year we’d probably move mountains to get him, but the risk with the rest of the guys so far hasn’t been worth the “damage”.
He shouldn’t run the team that way, but I get it.
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Agree with you the Fanatics have taken over this site by filibuster. Eric take note. Day after day the same BS. about Rosen.
Are you insinuating the owner of this site should take note that many threads are being opened re this subject and his site is getting thousands of hits while it's happening? Eric, watch out!
He is the same player that he always has been, if you don't like Eli today than you never have. He's not a mobile QB. I get it, its exciting to watch these guys that can make things happen with their feet.
In no way shape or form, is he the same player that he was in 2011 or even 2015. If you don't see that and then well...
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Eli can still play at a high level. Period. End of story.
He is the same player that he always has been, if you don't like Eli today than you never have. He's not a mobile QB. I get it, its exciting to watch these guys that can make things happen with their feet.
In no way shape or form, is he the same player that he was in 2011 or even 2015. If you don't see that and then well...
You really shouldn't be so cut and dried.
In the past two years, Eli has a rushing TD in each of them!!
Do what you gotta do. See you in a couple years.
He wanted to jettison Brady two years ago. But Kraft pulled ownership rank and forced the trade of JimG (speculation is Brady went to Kraft). And Brady is one of the all-timers.
So I don't think it's a leap to think Eli would have been cut two years ago or traded.
“I’ve read that and I have to tell you that really gets under my skin because that is absolutely nonsense,’’ Mara, his voice rising, said Sunday at the NFL annual league meeting. “Do I feel a certain amount of sentimentality towards Eli? Of course I do. Would I ever let that get in the way of making a football decision? Absolutely not! And I cannot believe some of you write that.’’
Believe what you want.
Full article - ( New Window )
JT: who outside the Giants’ organization thinks Eli can still play? And by that I mean a person with no ties to the team? I seriously have yet to find one. You and others are entitled to your opinions. But it’s hard to believe they aren’t impacted with a love for the guy because of the titles he brought us.
Every mock drafter thinks we need a QB. Non-Giants’ fans everywhere believe he can’t play. Why is it that the only people who believe he can are Giants’ fans or in the front office?
And the numbers suggest he is a mediocre QB, at best. Virtually none of his stats are above average. In fact, most are below average. So, the objective evidence is not in Eli fans’ favor, either.
Again, I respect others’ opinions because they are entitled to them. I just don’t see the support for them anywhere.
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If they don't honestly believe Eli is the best option going forward but they just don't want to tarnish his legacy, we might as well not participate as fans until Eli is gone. They don't deserve support if they're operating under some sense of loyalty to the old QB. It's not fair to anyone else other than Eli. And frankly, Eli has received what he was owed and he really doesn't deserve anything more.
Do what you gotta do. See you in a couple years.
I said it's a fair point if they actually believe that about Eli. JT seems to think otherwise. I tend to give management the benefit of the doubt.
But lets say the Giants go 8-8 or 9-7 (our schedule is pretty favorable this year), Eli goes for 4200-4300 yards, 66% completion and a 25/12 INT season. All very respectable numbers, the team improved - what next? If you dont think this is a distinct possibility - you havent followed the league long enough.
I wonder what each of their answers would be if they weren't tied to the organization.
Lastly, I would love to hear what some of the other NFL scouts say about Eli and his game RIGHT NOW. For some reason, there is very little intel out there about it...I wonder why that is...If his name wasn't Manning - do you think the insider NFL word on the curb would different?
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If Eli can still play? Spoiler alert. He agree w me
JT: who outside the Giants’ organization thinks Eli can still play? And by that I mean a person with no ties to the team? I seriously have yet to find one.
How hard have you looked?
I really dont want to make this an "is Eli a HoF player?" thread. You report what I assume to be facts back to us and I am appreciative. As a result you have a great reputation but you then use that repute (intentionally or unintentionally) to bolster your opinion as fact and make others seem "lost" and other adjectives.
Frankly, I for one am getting tired of you conflating the two. State your opinion but dont present that as fact like you do the things you hear. You dont know what every HoF voter thinks of Eli's candidacy - my guess is that if you do know some, it is just that - some, maybe none.
Youve said many times that the Giants (and you) think Eli can still play at a high level so I am asking you, your personal opinion of what "high level" means.
Ive agreed many times that he can play. I would say he can be effective (not consistently high level) if everything around him is ideal. On another team, he might be able to make a run but I just dont see that with this team.
All that said, I dont think he should be replaced just to be replaced. And from what you say, and I believe, the decision makers dont see anyone available that can play better than Eli. As I have said, I appreciate and accept this.
But lets say the Giants go 8-8 or 9-7 (our schedule is pretty favorable this year), Eli goes for 4200-4300 yards, 66% completion and a 25/12 INT season. All very respectable numbers, the team improved - what next? If you dont think this is a distinct possibility - you havent followed the league long enough.
I think that is a possibility but I think EVERYTHING has to go our way.
You've maintained that there has been a mandate to keep eli, that hiring choices were made with that being the primary driver, and that the team is being built around him. You've even asserted that certain personnel decisions have to go through eli before they happen.
Absolutely to all of that - except the last part about running decision by Eli. I may have said Archie in jest, but never Eli.
He wanted to jettison Brady two years ago. But Kraft pulled ownership rank and forced the trade of JimG (speculation is Brady went to Kraft). And Brady is one of the all-timers.
So I don't think it's a leap to think Eli would have been cut two years ago or traded.
Considering that Belichick was apparently overruled by Patriots ownership in your premise, your conclusion that he would have cut Eli makes no sense.
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If Eli can still play? Spoiler alert. He agree w me
JT: who outside the Giants’ organization thinks Eli can still play? And by that I mean a person with no ties to the team? I seriously have yet to find one. You and others are entitled to your opinions. But it’s hard to believe they aren’t impacted with a love for the guy because of the titles he brought us.
Every mock drafter thinks we need a QB. Non-Giants’ fans everywhere believe he can’t play. Why is it that the only people who believe he can are Giants’ fans or in the front office?
And the numbers suggest he is a mediocre QB, at best. Virtually none of his stats are above average. In fact, most are below average. So, the objective evidence is not in Eli fans’ favor, either.
Again, I respect others’ opinions because they are entitled to them. I just don’t see the support for them anywhere.
You ask for evidence of support for belief that Eli can still play, and then offer up mock drafters and other fans as evidence he can't. Brilliant.
But lets say the Giants go 8-8 or 9-7 (our schedule is pretty favorable this year), Eli goes for 4200-4300 yards, 66% completion and a 25/12 INT season. All very respectable numbers, the team improved - what next? If you dont think this is a distinct possibility - you havent followed the league long enough.
Another year of QB hell? (gettleman's term, not mine)
The reaction by the fans to the "benching" was ridiculous then as has the reaction by the ownership to it now. We are getting the treatment of Eli that we deserve and asked for.
The reaction by the fans to the "benching" was ridiculous then as has the reaction by the ownership to it now. We are getting the treatment of Eli that we deserve and asked for.
yup
The Giants do not fit this description.
The reaction by the fans to the "benching" was ridiculous then as has the reaction by the ownership to it now. We are getting the treatment of Eli that we deserve and asked for.
The reaction was justified cause they put an absolute shitbird in for no reason. Genao Smith didn’t earn shit and was given the keys for no reason.
Anyone with a clue that it was Reese and Ben sticking it to Eli cause they didn’t want him anymore.
They had no problem cutting Simms back in the day, and that relationship is fine.
Eli gets the business side as well. If they have to cut him he'll get over it sooner rather then later.
You can't make decisions over hurting someones feelings.
But lets say the Giants go 8-8 or 9-7 (our schedule is pretty favorable this year), Eli goes for 4200-4300 yards, 66% completion and a 25/12 INT season. All very respectable numbers, the team improved - what next? If you dont think this is a distinct possibility - you havent followed the league long enough.
I wish it were a simple AND/OR situation.
There's one last scenario - Eli leads us to another poor year...and Eli plays well in a handful of games (maybe late in the season, maybe against the Eagles) and the fan base comments on certain team aspects that don't go swimmingly (maybe the offensive line suffers injuries, maybe the offense weapons are lacking b/c there's no Odell, maybe the defense doesn't hold leads late) - and we sign him to an extension.
The Giants do not fit this description.
If we go 8-8 or 9-7 it wont be on Eli's back, It will be on Barkley and improved def, and we will fit this description pretty closely
"what I call quarterback hell. They've got quality defense, they've got a good special teams, and they're going 7-9, 8-8, 9-7. And now if there is a legitimate guy, they've got to trade up and give away the farm to get the guy."
He wanted to jettison Brady two years ago. But Kraft pulled ownership rank and forced the trade of JimG (speculation is Brady went to Kraft). And Brady is one of the all-timers.
So I don't think it's a leap to think Eli would have been cut two years ago or traded.
Didn't he just win another Superbowl with Brady at QB?
Yep. Everyone would do best to read his posts for a sense of what the Giants are going to do, because he’s clearly plugged in.
When it comes to the overt lobbying that what they’re going to do is the RIGHT course of action, just move on if you don’t like it.
I happen to hate the choices the org is making, much along the line of GoTerps. But no sense shitting on jtgiants.
We all like hearing insider information. It’s only logical that the best way for someone who is clearly plugged in to continue to receive it is to drink the kool-aid, tow the company line, or whatever euphemism you want to use.
It’s a lot easier for everyone if you just take the editorial parts of his posts with a grain of salt and move on, if you’re in such disagreement. Jtgiants seems like a good dude, but it seems unrealistic to expect that his opinions are going to be swayed by anything said in these threads.
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I heard Gettleman explain QB hell when he got here. It is when a team is built and can compete with the best and the QB is holding the team back.
The Giants do not fit this description.
If we go 8-8 or 9-7 it wont be on Eli's back, It will be on Barkley and improved def, and we will fit this description pretty closely
"what I call quarterback hell. They've got quality defense, they've got a good special teams, and they're going 7-9, 8-8, 9-7. And now if there is a legitimate guy, they've got to trade up and give away the farm to get the guy."
I must have missed the good special teams, quality defnese and records near 8 and 8 these past few years. The team sucks. 2016 was a fluke and Eli was actually the best player on the field in the playoffs. The Giants have not been in QB hell, the team just sucked. Even last season the passing game improved as the year went on and it could be argued the offense was the strength of that crap team. Most QB'S the first half of last season would have been on a stretcher. I guess that is a kinda of QB hell. I stand by my claim the Giants of do not fit that description.
He is the same player that he always has been, if you don't like Eli today than you never have. He's not a mobile QB. I get it, its exciting to watch these guys that can make things happen with their feet.
I can honestly only laugh whenever I see this comment. To say he is the same player he has always been does nothing but diminish how great of a player he used to be in his prime. No, he was never a runner, but he used to be much more mobile in the pocket. Go to 4:30 in the linked video below. One of my favorite Eli plays ever. You think Eli could still pull that off? The spin move against Dallas in the '11 final regular season game comes to mind too.
Also, he used to stand in the pocket and take hits while delivering the ball downfield. How about the throw to Cruz to beat the Redskins in 2012 while taking a hit? Today he would have tucked the ball and fell to the ground when he saw the free rusher.
Lastly (and most importantly), the magic is gone. In his prime he was always great in the biggest moments. You knew he was going to take the ball down the field and win the game. My last memories of 2018 are a horribly overthrown interception and 4 straight incompletions with the ball at mid field against the Colts and Cowboys with only a field goal needed to win.
Just stop with this nonsense that he is the same player he has always been. I wish he were but he is not even close to the same player.
Eli vs. Falcons - ( New Window )
This isn't a settled debate. Sure he flashed some later in the year. The same kind of circumstantial evidence out there to explain his bad play over the last 5 years can be used to explain away the good play.
They paid Eli more money than any other player has ever earned. They did right by him. If a trade should fall into their laps for a top 3 QB in the league in his 30s they should go for it, even it would mess with the farewell tour.
I actually support the farewell tour. I do think he deserves it. This isn't the 2020 draft in regards to QBs. Give Eli the best chance you can and hope he rekindles his magic. If he bombs this year, it will change the narrative on the last 5. Same is true if he does great but the converse.
After being in the middle of this debate for over a year I don't how how anyone can say with certainty what Eli is at this point. I can't. I just do not believe Eli's feelings should stop us from acquiring Wilson. If they are, that is an indictment of the front office.
Eli is always there, that cannot be overlooked, its so important to a team that your QB stay's healthy. He reads defense, he goes about the game the right way, he's even keeled, he's a leader, he can make all the throws, he can drop it in a bucket, back shoulder fade, fade to the endzone perfectly placed, he throws on time and often puts it were only his guy can get it. He's willing to be a gunslinger and let his WR go make a play.
What has he lost...Arm strength. Is it good enough to get the job done, yup. Was it ever really a big part of his game, nope. Maybe his 40 time is down too, I don't know and I don't care.
Protect him. How did the Giants beat the Pats, by pressuring Brady. Its hard to play QB on your back.
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He is the same player that he always has been, if you don't like Eli today than you never have. He's not a mobile QB. I get it, its exciting to watch these guys that can make things happen with their feet.
I can honestly only laugh whenever I see this comment. To say he is the same player he has always been does nothing but diminish how great of a player he used to be in his prime. No, he was never a runner, but he used to be much more mobile in the pocket. Go to 4:30 in the linked video below. One of my favorite Eli plays ever. You think Eli could still pull that off? The spin move against Dallas in the '11 final regular season game comes to mind too.
Also, he used to stand in the pocket and take hits while delivering the ball downfield. How about the throw to Cruz to beat the Redskins in 2012 while taking a hit? Today he would have tucked the ball and fell to the ground when he saw the free rusher.
Lastly (and most importantly), the magic is gone. In his prime he was always great in the biggest moments. You knew he was going to take the ball down the field and win the game. My last memories of 2018 are a horribly overthrown interception and 4 straight incompletions with the ball at mid field against the Colts and Cowboys with only a field goal needed to win.
Just stop with this nonsense that he is the same player he has always been. I wish he were but he is not even close to the same player. Eli vs. Falcons - ( New Window )
Rewatch your video and just watch the pocket.
Eli is always there, that cannot be overlooked, its so important to a team that your QB stay's healthy. He reads defense, he goes about the game the right way, he's even keeled, he's a leader, he can make all the throws, he can drop it in a bucket, back shoulder fade, fade to the endzone perfectly placed, he throws on time and often puts it were only his guy can get it. He's willing to be a gunslinger and let his WR go make a play.
What has he lost...Arm strength. Is it good enough to get the job done, yup. Was it ever really a big part of his game, nope. Maybe his 40 time is down too, I don't know and I don't care.
Protect him. How did the Giants beat the Pats, by pressuring Brady. Its hard to play QB on your back.
He's lost his ability to feel pressure in the pocket and evade it. That is absolutely the worst part of Eli in 2020.
There were multiple times last year where he was a second off of something whether it be stepping up, or just holding the ball just a second longer to get it out. He used to do those things well, and it just doesn't exist in today's Eli.
If they don't upgrade center and RT. We are going to be exactly the same as last year as well or worse since we don't have OBJ taking 2 people out in coverage with him.. Pressure up the middle from the center and some terrible RT play.
As the prodigal son with a life long NFL pedigree, Eli knows this too. He might not agree, but he knows it's about winning.
"Manning can still play" is a worthless barometer. Short of a catastrophic injury, he'll be able to go out and play to some functional degree.
To borrow a phrase from Bill, the stats can be tortured to tell any story, pro or ant-Manning.
The basic question should always be, is this a quarterback the Giants intend to build a champion around.
If he's not -- there are less than satisfactory, if understandable reasons he's on the roster; nostalgia, placeholding, timing etc.
In my view I'd like the team to either be churning a QB competition as they have at other roster spots and getting to the bottom of how big a problem he really is.
There stands a chance Manning isn't the problem at all and the Giants are much, much, further from championship level.
Looking around the league, should we think that Eli is the only great QB hampered by a poor OL? Can we all agree before the season if the OL will be an excuse or not?
We will only know if Eli has been part of the problem for all these disastrous years if there is a capable alternative on the roster who can step in mid-season. The problem is the Giants seem hesitant/unwilling to make that happen, for whatever reason, and that’s what most of us are upset about.
If the first read is there and he doesn't have pressure yet, he is the same guy he always was. Second and third reads. I feel he makes the decision to chuck it and his body is a half second behind doing what he wants it to. This is what I think we are seeing when he isn't as accurate as we would like.
I don't know. I either need to see someone else practice and start a number of games with the same players or I need us to improve the OL so he has more time and see him play a decent chunk of the season with an average to better than average OL.
DG: Eli, what are the chances you might be considering retirement? We don't want to cut you, but we would like to move in another direction at QB if you're ready to hang 'em up.
EM: I'm not retiring.
DG: Perfect! Glad to have you aboard!
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In comment 14380974 rocco8112 said:
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I heard Gettleman explain QB hell when he got here. It is when a team is built and can compete with the best and the QB is holding the team back.
The Giants do not fit this description.
If we go 8-8 or 9-7 it wont be on Eli's back, It will be on Barkley and improved def, and we will fit this description pretty closely
"what I call quarterback hell. They've got quality defense, they've got a good special teams, and they're going 7-9, 8-8, 9-7. And now if there is a legitimate guy, they've got to trade up and give away the farm to get the guy."
I must have missed the good special teams, quality defnese and records near 8 and 8 these past few years. The team sucks. 2016 was a fluke and Eli was actually the best player on the field in the playoffs. The Giants have not been in QB hell, the team just sucked. Even last season the passing game improved as the year went on and it could be argued the offense was the strength of that crap team. Most QB'S the first half of last season would have been on a stretcher. I guess that is a kinda of QB hell. I stand by my claim the Giants of do not fit that description.
I think the point is, the longer the Giants go on bolstering the roster without addressing the QB position with a post-Eli succession plan, the more likely it is that they voluntarily enter the QB hell that Gettleman described.
This is about Mara and his thought process.