On the crazy Russell Wilson/Cowherd 3 way deal thread jtgiants (who's been a fantastic resource for all of us this and past offseasons) said the following about the Giants cutting Eli:
| The Giants cutting Eli now would be a dick move and sever his relationship with the Giants by forcing his retirement. They won't do that to him or his legacy. Like it or not it isn't happening. |
I'm not trying to put jtgiants on the spot...I think he's plugged in and giving us an accurate perspective into the Giants' thinking.
You can not operate a football team this way. It's very difficult to win in the NFL if you're making critical decisions based on post-football relationships and legacies. If ever there were a time to ask "What would Belichick do?", this is it.
I very rarely start threads, but I felt this deserved one because jtgiants captured perfectly why Eli is still the QB - and it's not just about winning in 2019.
See last year leading up to the draft when Gettleman locked onto SB as his top rated player despite QB being a much bigger need going forward for the future of the franchise.
Nothing is going to change until people making the decisions are changed.
He lost his nerve. And then when he felt the backlash, on top of Eli’s crybaby act, he needed sacrificial lambs to take spotlight off his role. It was an act of cowardice.
Which leads me to believe it is a QB talent evaluation issue and not an Eli mandate issue.
Why can’t it be both?
He lost his nerve. And then when he felt the backlash, on top of Eli’s crybaby act, he needed sacrificial lambs to take spotlight off his role. It was an act of cowardice.
Bullshit. There is no fucking way an owner tells a HC to take a player out of the game if he isn’t playing well which is EXACTLY why he was fired immediately after the decision. They flat out agreed that if the giants were losing and out of the game to play other QBs. Not to take them out mid way through the game.
Plus he was benched for a guy who didn’t deserve to play either. A guy who had shown NOTHING in the league.
Again three people involved in the decision are still jobless. And there’s a reason for that. Everything Mara said after the fact was a straight cover up to diffuse the fire. But what the two idiots did was not thenplan they told Mara.
Reese and McAdoo, two people who squarely put us in the position we are in now are martyrized by many just to further the bias against Eli.
And not surprisingly, the people taking that stance called the Gettleman hiring a sham and wanted both him and Shurmur fired in year one of their tenures.
In a further slap in the face of logic, they urge the rest of the board to be rational.
You want to blame Mara for everything that happened after the firings, that’s fine.
Get the hell out of here...
You ok with that?
Again get the hell out of here..
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He lost his nerve. And then when he felt the backlash, on top of Eli’s crybaby act, he needed sacrificial lambs to take spotlight off his role. It was an act of cowardice.
Reese and McAdoo, two people who squarely put us in the position we are in now are martyrized by many just to further the bias against Eli.
And not surprisingly, the people taking that stance called the Gettleman hiring a sham and wanted both him and Shurmur fired in year one of their tenures.
In a further slap in the face of logic, they urge the rest of the board to be rational.
Hell, there were threads after we took Barkley questioning whether Gettleman should be fired before the team even took the field in his first season!
The Barkley over QB pick really drove some people bonkers. Never seen anything like it, honestly.
Terps....we get it...anyone who pays the slightest attention to BBI knows your take. And all the others that slide in right behind you
We get it...but it seems like it's turning into an obsession for you...
You checked the Beckham box...fair
You are over the top at this point...
I have always respected your opinion when it comes to football in general...but I'm not sure why you keep beating this drum.
We get it...
John Mara:
“I was hoping that Eli would play so well that it would be impossible to take him out. In any event, it is what it is. But you ought to stop blaming Ben and Jerry. If you want to blame anybody, blame me. I certainly have the power to overrule if I wanted to. I chose not to do it.”
Hmmmmm..... - ( New Window )
I think Mara wants to win, badly. As Lombardi said, there are a ton of voices in the building - Mara, Tisch, Gettleman, Abrams, Chris Mara & Shurmur. Collectively, I believe they think they can still win with Eli. I find this to be more believable than Mara refusing any alternative to Eli and putting his head in the sand.
Add another voice, too...Ernie Accorsi. Just a couple weeks with Francesa Gettleman brought up that he'd spoken to Accorsi the day before.
Bullshit it was.
It didn't fit what you wanted him to do.
And I'm damn glad you aren't a GM
Add another voice, too...Ernie Accorsi. Just a couple weeks with Francesa Gettleman brought up that he'd spoken to Accorsi the day before.
This is where I think sentimentality probably does come in. The Giants aren’t looking at the cap objectively with Eli. They aren’t going to cut him loose & play Jacoby Brissett for lack of a better example. I think the optics of who replaces Eli may have a role in things.
This is why increasingly, I tend to think Lock or Jones will be Giants in a few weeks. It makes for an easy transition to sell the next QB taking the reigns in 2020 & allowing Eli to play out his contract.
Screw over Eli? Is that a joke? What if he wants to play until he's 45? Are the Giants just supposed to keep trotting him out there?
That said, sometimes when I hear the team talk about the subject, I come away feeling like it’s sounds just a bit like they’ve been talking themselves into something.
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John Mara:
“I was hoping that Eli would play so well that it would be impossible to take him out. In any event, it is what it is. But you ought to stop blaming Ben and Jerry. If you want to blame anybody, blame me. I certainly have the power to overrule if I wanted to. I chose not to do it.”
He said what he said to settle the situation. Of course you believe what he said here because it fits your agenda but anything else Mara says and he’s full of shit, right?
Anyone who believes what Mara said after the benching is a fool.
"Eli can still play."
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Gettleman's performance in year one was fireable...it was that bad. Shurmur was worse.
Bullshit it was.
It didn't fit what you wanted him to do.
And I'm damn glad you aren't a GM
I don't believe you are capable of having a straight down the list dialogue on what were the good and bad moves last offseason.
Do you think you are?
Jt, no disrespect intended, and a lot of guys set great store by your posts, but I'm curious to know how 'connected' are you? Front office? Mid-level? I've seen your commentary, and it's more than just the usual 'guy who hears things'. I find you are pretty knowledgeable about what's going on, and what is happening behind the scenes.
Thanks in advance.
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In comment 14381584 Go Terps said:
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Gettleman's performance in year one was fireable...it was that bad. Shurmur was worse.
Bullshit it was.
It didn't fit what you wanted him to do.
And I'm damn glad you aren't a GM
I don't believe you are capable of having a straight down the list dialogue on what were the good and bad moves last offseason.
Do you think you are?
That's directed at me instead of Terps??
There are people here who literally think Gettleman didn't make a single move that was right.
Despite drafting Barkley. Despite getting rid of Flowers and Hart. Despite making continuous moves to improve the OL.
We still hear about the Jonathan Stewart contract.
If we are going to have a dialogue, at the very least there has to be an understanding that not everything Gettleman did was poor, nor were his moves fireable.
But I don't think that's what you are getting at.
He said what he said to settle the situation. Of course you believe what he said here because it fits your agenda but anything else Mara says and he’s full of shit, right?
Anyone who believes what Mara said after the benching is a fool.
I'm just a fair-minded BBI poster/journalist doing my best to provide unbiased information to better educate this audience... ;)
The team won 5 games
Now he’s going with plan b-
He drafted well year 1 though-
You ok with that?
Again get the hell out of here..
In most coach-player relationships the coach doesn’t ask the player for permission to bench him. That was BM’s mistake.
Terps....we get it...anyone who pays the slightest attention to BBI knows your take. And all the others that slide in right behind you
We get it...but it seems like it's turning into an obsession for you...
You checked the Beckham box...fair
You are over the top at this point...
I have always respected your opinion when it comes to football in general...but I'm not sure why you keep beating this drum.
We get it...
Seeing that jtGiants is pretty dialed in and if we aren’t making the right decisions because we don’t want to hurt Eli’s feelings, then yes this is warranted. It didn’t need to be barried in another thread. It should be discussed because no business is successful operating the way being described. It’s concerning if true.
I call it like I see it, and I'm not just going to go the way the fucking blue wind blows. And if I sound like a pessimist, it's because the Giants have been a pathetic joke and deserve every ounce of criticism they get.
Go back to what jtgiants is quoted as saying in the thread starter...the Giants aren't going to screw over Eli, damage his legacy, and/or sever the relationship. That way of doing business in the NFL is, frankly, fucked. We're trying to compete with the likes of Bill Belichick for Christ's sake...you think he's wasting his time on this kind of bullshit?
I personally think things have been way overblown and way overstated, and even jt points to this.
Eli isn't being kept because of backlash. He's being kept because they believe he is the best QB for them through this transition period.
Nobody has been hired because they had to keep Eli.
I call it like I see it, and I'm not just going to go the way the fucking blue wind blows. And if I sound like a pessimist, it's because the Giants have been a pathetic joke and deserve every ounce of criticism they get.
Go back to what jtgiants is quoted as saying in the thread starter...the Giants aren't going to screw over Eli, damage his legacy, and/or sever the relationship. That way of doing business in the NFL is, frankly, fucked. We're trying to compete with the likes of Bill Belichick for Christ's sake...you think he's wasting his time on this kind of bullshit?
Agreed. Who the fuck cares about Elis feelings? This is the NFL. Not some support group. Guy is set for life and can have anything he wants. You play like dog shit and you are gone or replace. I don’t feel bad for him for ONE SECOND!
There are people here who literally think Gettleman didn't make a single move that was right.
Despite drafting Barkley. Despite getting rid of Flowers and Hart. Despite making continuous moves to improve the OL.
We still hear about the Jonathan Stewart contract.
If we are going to have a dialogue, at the very least there has to be an understanding that not everything Gettleman did was poor, nor were his moves fireable.
But I don't think that's what you are getting at.
Commentary aside, all things equal -- let's do this -- here are the things last offseason I thought were materially good and bad moves, let's see your's.
Good
- trading Pierre Paul
- drafting Hernandez, Hill, and Carter
- signing Haley
- picking up Coleman
- cutting Flowers, Hart, Jerry
- trading Apple
Bad
- drafting Barkely over Darnold
- extending Beckham
- signing Solder, Omameh, Martin
- trading Snacks
- not trading Jenkins and Collins
- trading for Ogletree
Within what feels like minutes, Accorsi hires Gettleman, who was with the Giants as Accorsi's right hand man when Eli was drafted. It's public knowledge Gettleman loves Eli.
Gettleman hires a HC in Shurmur, who at the time just pulled Case Keenum off the scrap heap and guided him to a career year, finishing 2nd in the league in QBR.
It appears Eli is either on or near that same scrap heap...
Within a few weeks, this new brain trust exits from their caves of study and simultaneously declare Eli a QB with plenty left in the tank.
Yes, yes, yes - BBI. Keeping Eli was just four men independently arriving at the same conclusion. Nothing to see here but pure coincidence...
And its a awful strategy and they suck at it...
Dumb and dumber weren’t expecting Eli to do what he did. And neither was Mara. He was caught off guard with no explanation.
That’s why they were fired immediately. They lied to Mara. And that’s why neither has a job or Marc Ross does til this day.
Lol. It cracks me up when people present conjecture as if it was fact.
So Barkley over Darnold is not available for conclusion at this time. Darnold could be a HOF QB for 15 years or a jag. don't know. And unless that team gets better he could be great but we wouldn't know and he could be bad and good or he could be injured often. Ditto Barkley at this time.
Name what left tackle was available at the time? We had no left or right tackles at the time and no center or left guard or right guard. Name a better low risk sure fire winner of a better choice at the time? Name the other teams willing to sign him? Id call it a disappointing result so far but not a nutty choice
Stewart was a wtf signing. Omameh? Whiff. Martin? Whiff imo.
Had to sign OBJ he was in the process of holding out which would have decreased his impact on the team and his trade value so it was a hedge on upside and a hedge on downside future value. Many, many a talented high risk contract is signed to optimize which ever way it goes. I have no problem with the contract or trading him.
Don't think that is a credit or a debit to DG...classic strategy for the asset and situation. To me, OBJ is a wash on DGs record.
Ogletree a slight ding on DG.
Snacks not yet enough information on his future value
Jenkins, given how poor this years FA and draft choices are...I dunno. And he may yet get traded. I suspect he will halfway through the season to a playoff bound team that may overpay for a good CB. So once again, too early to tell.
Poor ROA regarding Collins. A clear ding imo
Eli...don't have the data yet. Until they have a better Qb signed on the roster they shouldn't release the one they have.
They don't have the cap room for a decent FA QB and there is no data yet that anyone outside of Mayfield (unavailable) was available and better.
Making some kinds of decisions at the last possible moment...usually a good idea over the long run
Im kinda in favor of building a better team this year and then going after a replacement when cap allows more options and pulling 2021 slots into a trade up is less likely to rob peter to pay paul on a talent deficient team.
I think much emotional speculation has vastly embraced one scenario so much that another equally plausible scenario is hardly considered.
Coming off the 11-5 2016 season I think ownership may have dictated to DG that he go for the short term. Being new and without hands on the scouting or talent assessment practices...DG followed orders. Those were the orders that would have been given to any GM. Period. Full Stop.
When that vision of ownership, based on a horrible misunderstanding of the actual talent on the team was proven wrong...to his credit DG got ownership to switch visions pretty quickly and executed the switch pretty rapidly.
That's as plausible as any other bullshit spun as fact.
Here is why I give it some credence and this is why its hard to read some of the made up realities and magical thinking of some posters:
Completely by accident and having nothing to do with any standing on my part; I know that DG was allowed to pick the new HC. He went after some pretty bold, young, heavy analytics devoted based HC talent. One he lost as he was not allowed to go higher in bidding for him. One signed and then rescinded and one we just missed. That's before the current coach who Im not yet impressed by.
imo...and its just imo...DG:
- Inherited a mess on the field and a ownership he needed to re educate and move into a more appropriate box ( ever try to manage owners from below? Its very hard).
- Had a debilitating course of treatment for cancer
- Had his hands tied on some major items
- Actually embraced and deliberately went after head coaches and coordinators known for embracing and incorporating analytics and trying new approaches for winning in the NFL.
Wish he would shut up instead of the shambling rambling routines with the media...but a good draft this year and that's beyond minor
But I think we can all agree that there is no one on the site who knows for sure and no one who could remotely do the job. As usual, with us humans, that never humbles us from charging full on screech from our high horses without even a shield or visor of facts
Is it really though? I'm on board with moving on from Eli, but just 'pragmatically' speaking... What rookie QB is going to come in and put up the numbers Eli will? I think Mayfield is the only one who put up comparable numbers as a rookie out of that class of 4 can't miss QBs (not including your favorite). Rosen isn't even likely to see a second season at the helm in AZ. It's not like you draft an Eli replacement every year. I think you're way underselling what Eli actually offers a team in the short run. I also think your fundamental philosophical difference from convention over what a QB looks like gets in the way of having a reasonable take on Giants management. You don't believe in a franchise QB. That will change how you perceive the normative move. I think that they traded Beckham shows just how far away they are from a perspective like yours in the FO. And frankly, considering their success as an organization, I'm glad they're holding to their views.
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That said, sometimes when I hear the team talk about the subject, I come away feeling like it’s sounds just a bit like they’ve been talking themselves into something.
"Eli can still play."
Given that they've paid Eli more than any other NFL player has ever made, maybe it'll help attract free agents?
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In comment 14381554 dep026 said:
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John Mara:
“I was hoping that Eli would play so well that it would be impossible to take him out. In any event, it is what it is. But you ought to stop blaming Ben and Jerry. If you want to blame anybody, blame me. I certainly have the power to overrule if I wanted to. I chose not to do it.”
He said what he said to settle the situation. Of course you believe what he said here because it fits your agenda but anything else Mara says and he’s full of shit, right?
Anyone who believes what Mara said after the benching is a fool.
I couldn't agree more. And an even bigger fool (or maybe just delusional) if you don't realize that Mara absolutely signed off on the whole thing before they spoke with Eli and thought the offer to extend the streak would suffice. Everything else that followed was lip service and spin.
If you choose to see it another way, you're just as guilty of the bias and agenda nonsense that you toss at everyone you disagree with.