On the crazy Russell Wilson/Cowherd 3 way deal thread jtgiants (who's been a fantastic resource for all of us this and past offseasons) said the following about the Giants cutting Eli:
| The Giants cutting Eli now would be a dick move and sever his relationship with the Giants by forcing his retirement. They won't do that to him or his legacy. Like it or not it isn't happening. |
I'm not trying to put jtgiants on the spot...I think he's plugged in and giving us an accurate perspective into the Giants' thinking.
You can not operate a football team this way. It's very difficult to win in the NFL if you're making critical decisions based on post-football relationships and legacies. If ever there were a time to ask "What would Belichick do?", this is it.
I very rarely start threads, but I felt this deserved one because jtgiants captured perfectly why Eli is still the QB - and it's not just about winning in 2019.
Is it the way to do business as a rule? No. But he’s an exception and he’s not shitting the bed repeatedly.
One year of a big and final cap hit. BFD. Stop this bullshit narrative about money. It doesn’t matter in the long term. It’s fucking insufferable already.
Tim Allen is generally unfunny to a lot of people.
Hence the comments that have been made.
Diving down this rabbit hole was unexpected....
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Context matters. It's overwhelmingly a passing league, and those statistics actually aren't particularly impressive. Check out where each of those totals ranks relative to the league for last season - that's much more significant than where Eli's totals from last season rank for his career.
Yards - 9th
% - 16th
INTs - t-15
TDs - t-17th
YPA- 15th
So many of them come in league average and one in the top 10. The TDs should be higher, I agree. INTs werent bad considering 11 isnt that high of a number in a throwing league. Like to see YPA a little higher as well.
But considering how pathetic the OL was to start the year, with better OL - some of the stats figure to get better - no?
I would hope so, with the commitment to the supporting cast, especially the OL. But I also think that you and I fundamentally disagree about Eli being in decline. I expect that the improvements around Eli will only help him tread water from 2018 to 2019, but I certainly hope that I'm wrong and he puts up a great year behind a solid OL. Otherwise, it will be tiresome to have the Giants be irrelevant yet again this year.
You do see my point though, don't you? Simply looking at last season vs. Eli's career doesn't paint the picture, IMO. Comparing his performance vs. the league yields a much more accurate view - Eli was basically league average last season. And I feel like that's basically what he is at this point.
I bet it would change yours, too, since it was your number one bad move.
Is that a leap of logic?
It's a material leap of logic.
All of the acquisitions I noted are bad if Rosen is QB or Barkley is the running back.
I genuinely don't think Barkley was the right pick. I think his pass catching stats are the symptom of a major problem, and despite a really productive season, the Giants were still a bottom 3rd rushing team.
I always, and will always think a good quarterback is exponentially more valuable than a great running back. That's a consistent view I've held, no reason to change that now. History backs me up pretty well on that.
I like Gettleman, he's having a great offseason this year. I think there are good quarterbacks (none as good as Darnold) and I think he should pick one this year.
If the Giants can get better QB play, and pair that with a great running back, alls well that ends well for the future of the team.
Tim Allen is generally unfunny to a lot of people.
Hence the comments that have been made.
Diving down this rabbit hole was unexpected....
see, aren't we having fun now!
How much would taking Darnold instead of Barkley change your view of Gettleman's first season?
Is it the way to do business as a rule? No. But he’s an exception and he’s not shitting the bed repeatedly.
One year of a big and final cap hit. BFD. Stop this bullshit narrative about money. It doesn’t matter in the long term. It’s fucking insufferable already.
Thank you, at least one poster can be honest.
I happen to think Mara is going Eli more harm than good with his actions, but we agree that it isn't the end of the world. And who knows, maybe Eli does still have it and it will be a fun and competitive season.
How much would taking Darnold instead of Barkley change your view of Gettleman's first season?
This is a question for anybody, really.
Tim Allen is generally unfunny to a lot of people.
Hence the comments that have been made.
Diving down this rabbit hole was unexpected....
it shouldnt be unexpected with some posters...
There are a number of posters adamant that this is not possible.
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Allen did a movie called The Santa Clause. With the "e".
Tim Allen is generally unfunny to a lot of people.
Hence the comments that have been made.
Diving down this rabbit hole was unexpected....
it shouldnt be unexpected with some posters...
I'm sort of having to explain it to you.
Stop looking at porn and watch some Tim Allen!!!
I would hope so, with the commitment to the supporting cast, especially the OL. But I also think that you and I fundamentally disagree about Eli being in decline. I expect that the improvements around Eli will only help him tread water from 2018 to 2019, but I certainly hope that I'm wrong and he puts up a great year behind a solid OL. Otherwise, it will be tiresome to have the Giants be irrelevant yet again this year.
You do see my point though, don't you? Simply looking at last season vs. Eli's career doesn't paint the picture, IMO. Comparing his performance vs. the league yields a much more accurate view - Eli was basically league average last season. And I feel like that's basically what he is at this point.
See this is where I love selected reading. I have pointed out more times than I like too that I wanted Darnold over barkley. I would have loved Darnold to start starting games as soon as we were out of the playoff picture last year.
I have been ok with moving on from Eli (as long as we dont mortgage futures for trading for Russell Wilson or signing mediocre QBs to overflated contracts like Foles). If they take Lock or Jones - then great.
But this decline issue is boring. Brady is in decline. Rivers is in decline. Brees is. Ben is as well. It doesnt mean you cant win with them. And it doesnt mean they can get the job done.
We all know Eli is in decline, but to definitively state he is finished is BS because the team surrounding him has been utter garbage for years so its impossible to tell. Thats been my point.
Is it the way to do business as a rule? No. But he’s an exception and he’s not shitting the bed repeatedly.
One year of a big and final cap hit. BFD. Stop this bullshit narrative about money. It doesn’t matter in the long term. It’s fucking insufferable already.
It should be pretty easy to understand that IF this is in fact even a part of the reason that Mara has retained and is retaining Eli, that a lot of fans think it's absolutely awful, or "fucking insufferable".
I give you credit for openly admitting that you're OK with placing the sentimentality and "owing it to Eli" ahead of regaining a current and sustainable winning trajectory. To expect, with such disdain, that others would share that view is silly.
Eli Manning has never been truly embraced for whatever reason. Kind of reminds me of the way Knicks fans treated Patrick Ewing except Eli has a pair of titles.
In the last few years alone we've heard that Eli's 2016 season was not good. That he "benched himself" in 2017, and when Beckham was still here we had to deal with people propping up Beckham at Eli's expense. All of which seem totally unacceptable to me coming from any real Giants fan. Hell, we have the people who are still mad about the Barkley pick laughing at the idea that Eli's record may dip below .500 almost as if they are rooting for it.
I think Eagles fans might love Nick Foles more than a large portion of Giants fans love Eli. Sad but true.
For example, (and I really dont feel like arguing this again) he definitely did bench himself. In my mind that is 100% clear.
No to you that makes me a Eli hater when the truth is the exact opposite. I'm a huge Eli fan.
It would also mean you have zero appreciation of the player Eli has been and the way he's represented this franchise for the last 15 years, but that is already very obvious.
See heres the thing with the benchign of Eli. You have so many posters who have shitted on Mara from everything from Eli's benching, to DG's hiring, to the direction of the franchise, etc..... and whenever he says something - people scoff at it. But when it comes to ONE particular event.... an event that was so fucked up from the beginning. One in which Mara did not openly talk about until after firing two men.... then that is the ONE time everyone is going to believe what is said? Bullshit.
McAdoo went to Eli and said we will play you in a half, and regardless of how you play - we are going to put in Geno Smith. Really? You really think Mara signed off on that idea? You really believe that an owner of a team that wants to win would sign off on benching a player "if" he was playing well and the team was winning? Do you believe that? Cause many of the posters here sure as hell do.
And what about the promise that was made to Webb? That he would start the last 3-4 games? Oh really? Thats the plan. So if geno Smith had a huge day in Oakland - Mara would have been fine saying - "Oh great job geno, I dont want to see you play anymore."
For as smart as many people here are (or claim to be), its almost comical how you guys view this situation. No time in history of the NFL has a QB been purposely benched in the middle of the game to see another QB play. We arent talking rotating. We are flat talking - ok time for you to sit. Thanks for the 3 drives.
The season was over. The only thing Eli had left was his streak. And to continue it just for the sake of continuing it was a slap in the face to him. Thats why there was outrage. For Geno Smith nonetheless. Not a rookie QB. A proven unworthy QB who stunk for his career and also in the preseason.
The two main men are still out of a job and just because Mara put out a few quotes weeks after - then thats the time to believe him? Sure. But lets pretend the Mara was ok with taking a QB out of the game despite how he was playing. Fits the BBI narrative much much much better.
On the other hand, dep would have you believe that McAdoo, a first time NFL HC, and Reese, a very quiet unassuming GM, would feel so passionate about benching Eli that they would risk committing career suicide to get their way over Mara.
Which begs the question - who has really gone off the deep end here?
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McAdoo, a first time NFL HC, and Reese, a very quiet unassuming GM
Like I said earlier in this thread, the defense of these 2 is just comical right now.
I named my kid after Eli. He's my favorite all time Giant, but is that supposed to prevent me from seeing what's obvious on the field?
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Eli Manning has never been truly embraced for whatever reason.
I named my kid after Eli. He's my favorite all time Giant, but is that supposed to prevent me from seeing what's obvious on the field?
I dont think he was referring to you. I think its referring the posters who have shitted on him for years and now claiming that they always liked him and are just being impartial.
We have posters here going back to BBWC who have shitted on him.
no I wouldn't. This is a perfect example of the persecution complex certain people have regarding Eli.
I'm sure some people enjoy bashing Eli, but I'm not one of them. But some of the things certain fans say are tough to accept with a straight face and need to be rebuked.
Who said shy? I just can't connect the dots why McAdoo would risk career suicide in the NFL...
Strangely, you can.
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Eli Manning has never been truly embraced for whatever reason.
I named my kid after Eli. He's my favorite all time Giant, but is that supposed to prevent me from seeing what's obvious on the field?
but as an adult you dont have a life size fathead on your ceiling in your bedroom- so that doesnt count--- HATER!!! lol---
Just a small, but crucial edit - "steamrolled by a manipulative....John Mara..."
yes, but not for the reason you think.
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Mara knew EXACTLY what McAdoo and Reese planned. In fact, he mentioned that he never got back with McAdoo to approve the plan because he was out of town at that time.
He lost his nerve. And then when he felt the backlash, on top of Eli’s crybaby act, he needed sacrificial lambs to take spotlight off his role. It was an act of cowardice.
Bullshit. There is no fucking way an owner tells a HC to take a player out of the game if he isn’t playing well which is EXACTLY why he was fired immediately after the decision. They flat out agreed that if the giants were losing and out of the game to play other QBs. Not to take them out mid way through the game.
Plus he was benched for a guy who didn’t deserve to play either. A guy who had shown NOTHING in the league.
Again three people involved in the decision are still jobless. And there’s a reason for that. Everything Mara said after the fact was a straight cover up to diffuse the fire. But what the two idiots did was not thenplan they told Mara.
I have to ask - why on Earth would the Owner even be involved with this?
Why would th Owner need to approve the HC benching a player in a losing game that is also not playing well?
If the HC needs to ask permission to bench a poorly performing player in a game that is being lost then they are not the HC.
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innocent victims that got steamrolled by a manipulative, vindictive Eli Manning.
Just a small, but crucial edit - "steamrolled by a manipulative....John Mara..."
Yes, indeed. Innocent victims paying the price for somebody else's failures....
Surely somebody would have seen this and hired one of them by now.
I don't know if the 2019 partnership is best for NYG or Eli but that's the course they've all chosen. I can see the arguments for and against it.
I do disagree with the notion that the Giants are being negligent or don't have a plan. Obviously they still think he can lead a winning team in 2019. As far as life after that? I think they're set to address it either this month or next year.
I have no problem with disagreeing with that, I've always had a problem with how many NYG fans (not you specifically) disrespect a 2-time SB winning QB.
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to the media in discussing his displeasure with Eli. Where would I ever come up with that?
Who said shy? I just can't connect the dots why McAdoo would risk career suicide in the NFL...
Strangely, you can.
Cause they probably thought they could get away with or didnt see the big deal with it. Probably why both were pretty inept at their job.
McAdoo and Reese had the sense to know how much Eli meant to Mara and they smartly went to Mara with a plan. A plan, and I've discussed this endlessly, that Mara supported AND signed-off on....
Btw weren't there rumors Belichek wanted to replace Brady?
McAdoo and Reese had the sense to know how much Eli meant to Mara and they smartly went to Mara with a plan. A plan, and I've discussed this endlessly, that Mara supported AND signed-off on....
The plan that he has now turned around on for what will be 2 years and counting!!!!
Cause they probably thought they could get away with or didnt see the big deal with it. Probably why both were pretty inept at their job.
Look, you seem like a bright guy. You really can't believe there was this type of subterfuge going on. It just doesn't make sense.
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innocent victims that got steamrolled by a manipulative, vindictive Eli Manning.
Just a small, but crucial edit - "steamrolled by a manipulative....John Mara..."
Not farfetched at all. I do think Mara wanted to get rid of them, and this episode was a prime opportunity,
- new GM
- new head coach
- #2 pick in the draft
- strong QB class
- Eli had an out in his contract that made cutting him financially
In the NFL world that's as serendipitous as it gets. The only fly in the ointment was Eli. Had he retired, Sam Darnold would have been the pick instead of Barkley, and not a person on this board would have complained.
The Giants instead opted to ignore two universal maxims:
#1 Finding RBs is easy; finding QBs is hard.
#2 Better a year early than a year late.
#1 was universally accepted before we picked Barkley. Since then we've had posters try to tell us we can find a QB some other time - as we look at this draft we are learning it doesn't really work that way.
#2 is something that is being countered with the flaccid "Eli can still play" mantra. So he can "still play". Super. Do we expect that to get us to a title? Had we moved on after 2017 we'd be a year into the next QB cycle and building towards better things. Instead we're chained to Eli, and we're (maybe) looking at lesser QBs in this draft.
And what are Britt, FMIC, and dep going to say if/when Eli gets an extension?
fixed.
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Cause they probably thought they could get away with or didnt see the big deal with it. Probably why both were pretty inept at their job.
Look, you seem like a bright guy. You really can't believe there was this type of subterfuge going on. It just doesn't make sense.
Here's what makes sense.
1. McAdoo never like Eli - we can agree with that.
2. Reese wanted to move on from Eli, cause he never had his own QB - makes sense, right?
3. Mara, Reese, McAdoo all wanted to see other QBs - we can agree, right?
Now this is where it gets tricky. But it makes perfect sense to me. They all knew the streak was involved. ending it the right way would be complicated. Reese and McAdoo came up with the idea of playing him for a half to appease him. That way they could see the other QBs for at least a half. The pitch to Mara would be something liek that without details. They told Mara that they wanted to see the other QBs.... basically explaining to Mara that they would see mop up time. Mara sees it this way and agrees to it.
Is that so unplausible?
You honestly think that Reese and McAdoo went to Mara and told him despite how Eli was playing that he would only play half? even if he was playing great - they would take him out? And that makes sense?
And like i said earlier.... if Geno Smith played really well against Raiders - he would be then be benched for Webb - because webb did say McAdoo promised him he would start the last 3-4 games?
it makes absolutely zero sense.
Is this the same Reese who was often called arrogant, the smartest guy in the room and dismissive and the guy who put the Super Bowl clock on?
Quiet and assuming?
And bw will tell you he doesn't have an agenda. It is either that or he's a complete moron, so let's see which option he takes.
my stance will not have changed. I will say that was a possibility, as I've been saying for two years now, to buy them time in order to transition to the next guy while simultaneously rebuilding the roster.
It changes nothing. The Eli Manning era is winding down. Expecting him to play past 40 is not likely.
They are buying time while figuring it out.
- new GM
- new head coach
- #2 pick in the draft
- strong QB class
- Eli had an out in his contract that made cutting him financially
In the NFL world that's as serendipitous as it gets. The only fly in the ointment was Eli. Had he retired, Sam Darnold would have been the pick instead of Barkley, and not a person on this board would have complained.
The Giants instead opted to ignore two universal maxims:
#1 Finding RBs is easy; finding QBs is hard.
#2 Better a year early than a year late.
#1 was universally accepted before we picked Barkley. Since then we've had posters try to tell us we can find a QB some other time - as we look at this draft we are learning it doesn't really work that way.
#2 is something that is being countered with the flaccid "Eli can still play" mantra. So he can "still play". Super. Do we expect that to get us to a title? Had we moved on after 2017 we'd be a year into the next QB cycle and building towards better things. Instead we're chained to Eli, and we're (maybe) looking at lesser QBs in this draft.
And what are Britt, FMIC, and dep going to say if/when Eli gets an extension?
Positioning Barkley as just another RB is ingenuous. He is an exceptional player who was well worth the #2 pick. You can't just find another player like him later. However you could find another Darnold.
Because it will come on the heels of a successful season.
The bigger question is what will people say coming off a successful season with a QB who clearly can't be successful anymore?
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Very rarely do things line up for the Giants the way they did after the 2017 season:
- new GM
- new head coach
- #2 pick in the draft
- strong QB class
- Eli had an out in his contract that made cutting him financially
In the NFL world that's as serendipitous as it gets. The only fly in the ointment was Eli. Had he retired, Sam Darnold would have been the pick instead of Barkley, and not a person on this board would have complained.
The Giants instead opted to ignore two universal maxims:
#1 Finding RBs is easy; finding QBs is hard.
#2 Better a year early than a year late.
#1 was universally accepted before we picked Barkley. Since then we've had posters try to tell us we can find a QB some other time - as we look at this draft we are learning it doesn't really work that way.
#2 is something that is being countered with the flaccid "Eli can still play" mantra. So he can "still play". Super. Do we expect that to get us to a title? Had we moved on after 2017 we'd be a year into the next QB cycle and building towards better things. Instead we're chained to Eli, and we're (maybe) looking at lesser QBs in this draft.
And what are Britt, FMIC, and dep going to say if/when Eli gets an extension?
Positioning Barkley as just another RB is ingenuous. He is an exceptional player who was well worth the #2 pick. You can't just find another player like him later. However you could find another Darnold.
Some are too stupid to see we drafted a future HoFer, while the Jets got a softer Andy Dalton and Cards got severe buyers remorse. Way easier to find.