On the crazy Russell Wilson/Cowherd 3 way deal thread jtgiants (who's been a fantastic resource for all of us this and past offseasons) said the following about the Giants cutting Eli:
| The Giants cutting Eli now would be a dick move and sever his relationship with the Giants by forcing his retirement. They won't do that to him or his legacy. Like it or not it isn't happening. |
I'm not trying to put jtgiants on the spot...I think he's plugged in and giving us an accurate perspective into the Giants' thinking.
You can not operate a football team this way. It's very difficult to win in the NFL if you're making critical decisions based on post-football relationships and legacies. If ever there were a time to ask "What would Belichick do?", this is it.
I very rarely start threads, but I felt this deserved one because jtgiants captured perfectly why Eli is still the QB - and it's not just about winning in 2019.
Off of on year on a loaded team. Are we assuming he would have transformed the Giants by himself.
I am not proclaiming mahomes as bad or not a great player - but if there was ever a player headed for a decline this year... it would be him.
Quote:
but if we'd granted his request Patrick Mahomes would be our QB. He was a million percent right on that score.
Off of on year on a loaded team. Are we assuming he would have transformed the Giants by himself.
I am not proclaiming mahomes as bad or not a great player - but if there was ever a player headed for a decline this year... it would be him.
Let's even step further back from that. The way people bandy about the Mahomes/McAdoo connection it is almost like McAdoo quit because Mahomes wasn't brought here and his lasting legacy will have been the suggestion of Mahomes, not completely losing the team.
And even putting that aside, Mahomes is talked about as an all-time great after one season.
Contrast that with how Barkley is viewed...
Doesn’t mean we would be a better team or faster on the rebuild.
Quote:
Mahomes could decline by 50% and still be a better option for the Giants than Eli.
Doesn’t mean we would be a better team or faster on the rebuild.
What?
Quote:
Mahomes could decline by 50% and still be a better option for the Giants than Eli.
Doesn’t mean we would be a better team or faster on the rebuild.
Say what? If our new franchise QB was in place, we'd be at least 2 seasons ahead of where we are now in the rebuild..excuse me...build.
Quote:
In comment 14382526 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Now this is something I may be wrong about.... but when DG referred to the "KC plan" everyone assumed it was about the rookie QB sitting and then playing his 2nd year like Mahomes did.
But maybe the KC plan was to get the OL, surround the QB with talent (Hill, Hunt, kelce, Watkins...) and then plug the QB in when everything else was in place.
I dont think Mahomes sitting was the "KC plan" but getting the team around him first.
Ok let's say this is the KC plan.
1. Hunt the 4th round RB was one of the FINAL pieces and I think that's what everyone says in relation to Barkley. RB is a last piece and there isn't really any precedent for having a top RB win a SB in the modern age without a cost controlled QB. No surrounding team, no cost controlled QB makes the RB pick something strategically out on a limb at best. (I'm not like some others even willing to call it bad but calling it good after the way the TEAM performed last year is kind of crazy)
2. Want to build a team? Look at what the Colts did with their first 4 picks after trading back.
Quenton Nelson
Darius Leonard
Braden Smith
Kemoko Turay
Turay not as great of a season as the rest but still was better in the PFF rankings that Kareem Martin and way more cost effective. Hernandez as no doubt a great pick but at very generously is a wash for Nelson but our season might have looked completely different with Smith at RT and certainly with Leonard on the D. Draft a RB or hey, I don't think Gallman would have been that bad behind an improved line but anyway more picks are good and that Jets offer is a real offer that we could have gotten as a point of comparison. (Plus one more 2nd round pick according to the draft value chart)
And that's where I think you kind of have to have your blinders on to not be concerned about DG the person. DG the personnel guy is again no doubt, top notch. But part of minimizing mistakes is having a team around you that widens your perspective and that you trust. Salivating so hard after one player so much so that you ignore even the idea of positional value (mocking analytics) / asset allocation and don't take calls for a trade to see if you could be blown away is just kind of irresponsible on it's face. People talk about DG as if he is this mastermind but in his first year alone he had some very real things both said and done that are definite mixes of overconfidence and carelessness.
Maybe this is how the Mara's and the old guard like decisions to be made but while it might have worked in the past it is far from best practices now.
I don't know why more universally we can't say some things about our process could be improved without anybody getting fired or anything. But the kind of larger issue is that nobody's mind should ever be made up to such an extent that they don't even want to hear about other possibilities.
No matter what you have to say about Barkley there was a trade package out there more valuable than him. I don't think that is as true of a QB you are sold on, kind of the definition of positional value though. But even then you are sitting in the drivers seat and you can say you are basically going to have to completely blow me out of the water to not take that player. And maybe they do, you never know how much anyone is going to overvalue an asset if desperate.
Also anyone that's going to say you can't make that trade with the Jets, that's exactly what bad management is, letting an emotional argument trump your value assessment. You don't like Darnold enough fine, there were teams that very much did.
Come on where? You're saying Mahomes made hill, kelce, and hunt all pro players? Cause I am pretty damn sure they already were before Mahome started.
being coached by McAdoo and being hamstrung with a bad team would have taken him longer to get to his peak.
Oh, it absolutely would have been. But Eli's people controlled the timing, the message, the positioning, all of it. They had him out in front of the media as a sympathetic figure before Mara was even on a plane back to NJ. He correctly identified that McAdoo was operating from a position of weakness and desperation, and he struck first. All of it was perfectly orchestrated, from the refusal to go along with McAdoo's plan (which in a vacuum was insubordination on a very basic level), to the press release, to the follow-up conversation with Mara himself once JM got back.
I happen to think most fans were so quick to react to Eli being benched that they failed to see the puppet strings being pulled by Team Manning (or maybe they just didn't care because they were squarely in Eli's corner either way). It was a truly impressive display of understanding how to manipulate the media. Nobody in the NFL is better at that than the Mannings no matter how many times people insist on some anti-Eli media narrative.
This is very well explained. Never underestimate the craftiness of Tom Condon in this. He quickly mobilized Team Eli and probably had DeNiro on the phone to make sure Eli really nailed down the crying piece... ;)
being coached by McAdoo and being hamstrung with a bad team would have taken him longer to get to his peak.
I so believe in the greatness of Mahomes that I feel very comfortable saying he gets us into or very close to the playoffs last year. His improvisation skills create more opportunities for points. A rare talent who can create chicken salad.
Do you think OBJ is happier with Mahomes, btw??
Alex Smith was a Pro Bowler himself with that offense, and all combined they were the 6th ranked scoring offense in the NFL in 2017.
Mahomes had a fantastic year in 2018. But the rest of the pieces were already in place.
This is what I would like the Giants to build to. No reason Eli Manning can't be the Alex Smith in this scenario.
Quote:
the greatness of Mahomes has a lot to do with being coached by Andy Reid and have all-pros ready in place. In most certainly sped up his timeline.
being coached by McAdoo and being hamstrung with a bad team would have taken him longer to get to his peak.
I so believe in the greatness of Mahomes that I feel very comfortable saying he gets us into or very close to the playoffs last year. His improvisation skills create more opportunities for points. A rare talent who can create chicken salad.
Do you think OBJ is happier with Mahomes, btw??
Maybe you’re right. Maybe I am. No one can know for sure. But let’s not act like he wasn’t handed a better playing hand in KC than he would have been for us.
As far as Beckham. Fuck him.
He is the ultimate force multiplier.
Kudos to the much underrated McAdoo for seeing the potential in Mahomes and insisting on a trade! ;)
He is the ultimate force multiplier.
Kudos to the much underrated McAdoo for seeing the potential in Mahomes and insisting on a trade! ;)
He wouldn’t have had either engram or Barkley since the price of moving up to get mahomes was a first in 2017 and 2018.
Thanks for this post.
Did I miss Terps' retraction and apology for getting your point completely wrong?
Quote:
Mahomes would have had some good weapons here last year - SB, OBJ, Shep, Engram. That's not bad. And this is crucial, he would be able to manipulate around this OL. Chiefs have a very solid OL, but Mahomes made what seemed like a thousand plays outside the tackles.
He is the ultimate force multiplier.
Kudos to the much underrated McAdoo for seeing the potential in Mahomes and insisting on a trade! ;)
He wouldn’t have had either engram or Barkley since the price of moving up to get mahomes was a first in 2017 and 2018.
True. But RBs are RBs. Tons of solutions there... ;)
Eli (or his management team, most likely) knew exactly what they were doing when they requested that press release. That was a masterstroke in controlling the public sentiment.
Eli clotheslined Reese and Mcadoo, but they did it to themselves largely with their chickenshit plan to bench Eli.
"So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth." Revelation 3:16
Quote:
In comment 14382629 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
I think people forget that Eli insisted on having the team put out a press release about him being benched. That was the shot across the bow, IMO. He knew he was at odds with McAdoo (and by extension, Reese), and he lit the match for the firestorm that ensued.
Eli (or his management team, most likely) knew exactly what they were doing when they requested that press release. That was a masterstroke in controlling the public sentiment.
I get what you're saying - but lets not act like it wouldnt be a massive story either way.
Oh, it absolutely would have been. But Eli's people controlled the timing, the message, the positioning, all of it. They had him out in front of the media as a sympathetic figure before Mara was even on a plane back to NJ. He correctly identified that McAdoo was operating from a position of weakness and desperation, and he struck first. All of it was perfectly orchestrated, from the refusal to go along with McAdoo's plan (which in a vacuum was insubordination on a very basic level), to the press release, to the follow-up conversation with Mara himself once JM got back.
I happen to think most fans were so quick to react to Eli being benched that they failed to see the puppet strings being pulled by Team Manning (or maybe they just didn't care because they were squarely in Eli's corner either way). It was a truly impressive display of understanding how to manipulate the media. Nobody in the NFL is better at that than the Mannings no matter how many times people insist on some anti-Eli media narrative.
This is amazing stuff. Maybe you could work in the part the reverse vampires played in the scheme.
Quote:
In comment 14382641 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14382629 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
I think people forget that Eli insisted on having the team put out a press release about him being benched. That was the shot across the bow, IMO. He knew he was at odds with McAdoo (and by extension, Reese), and he lit the match for the firestorm that ensued.
Eli (or his management team, most likely) knew exactly what they were doing when they requested that press release. That was a masterstroke in controlling the public sentiment.
I get what you're saying - but lets not act like it wouldnt be a massive story either way.
Oh, it absolutely would have been. But Eli's people controlled the timing, the message, the positioning, all of it. They had him out in front of the media as a sympathetic figure before Mara was even on a plane back to NJ. He correctly identified that McAdoo was operating from a position of weakness and desperation, and he struck first. All of it was perfectly orchestrated, from the refusal to go along with McAdoo's plan (which in a vacuum was insubordination on a very basic level), to the press release, to the follow-up conversation with Mara himself once JM got back.
I happen to think most fans were so quick to react to Eli being benched that they failed to see the puppet strings being pulled by Team Manning (or maybe they just didn't care because they were squarely in Eli's corner either way). It was a truly impressive display of understanding how to manipulate the media. Nobody in the NFL is better at that than the Mannings no matter how many times people insist on some anti-Eli media narrative.
This is amazing stuff. Maybe you could work in the part the reverse vampires played in the scheme.
Nah, I'll stick to what actually did happen, just like I wrote above.
Quote:
I think people forget that Eli insisted on having the team put out a press release about him being benched. That was the shot across the bow, IMO. He knew he was at odds with McAdoo (and by extension, Reese), and he lit the match for the firestorm that ensued.
Eli (or his management team, most likely) knew exactly what they were doing when they requested that press release. That was a masterstroke in controlling the public sentiment.
Eli clotheslined Reese and Mcadoo, but they did it to themselves largely with their chickenshit plan to bench Eli.
"So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth." Revelation 3:16
Speaking of revelation, are you ever going to let us know what your previous handle(s) was?
And I hope we would too if that was offered to us.
Quote:
And who knows, maybe Eli does still have it and it will be a fun and competitive season.
There are a number of posters adamant that this is not possible.
Thats the great thing about sports. Anything can happen.
If the predicted outcome always happened it would be pretty boring.
Quote:
If we called the Chiefs right now and offered them 6, Barkley, Engram and Hernandez for Mahomes they would laugh.
And I hope we would too if that was offered to us.
Huh? You wouldn't trade that for Mahomes? What game are you watching? Like seriously when you turn on a football game what do you think is going on there? Mahomes is worth three Barkleys, assuming Mahomes continues to play at or near his 2018 level. Barkley is a damn running back. You can get three journeymen at RB and have the best rushing attack in the league. I seriously don't understand the things you say. You seem like a fairly intelligent fellow.. Mahomes is damn near worth the entire Giants roster. If I could take nothing but Mahomes and build fresh or have the Giants roster I would take the former.
1. Nostalgia and sentimentality
or
2. Inability to assess QBs
It has to be one of those two, because paying Eli $23M to be the QB this season is not a logical position to take.
1. Nostalgia and sentimentality
or
2. Inability to assess QBs
It has to be one of those two, because paying Eli $23M to be the QB this season is not a logical position to take.
So true. Look a player, like Eli for instance, might put up stats that appear to be 3/4 as good as Rodgers or Wilson or Mahomes but in actuality his worth is not 3/4 of those guys. Eli is at or below replacement level. If you're playing at 3/4 the level of Rodgers you are worth less than half. Baseball gets this. Mike trout gets 35 mil a year and the guys who are 3/4 of Mike Trout get a lot less. The reason Mahomes is worth the entire Giants roster, and Rodgers and Wilson... is they guarantee you playoff visits and perennial contention for Super Bowls.. There are what 5 to 7 QBs like that, and everyone wants one. And when you have that guy you don't let him go. You're not ever getting peak Rodgers. You can't ever offer enough.
Do we wait for mathematical elimination like in 17?
When do you start giving QB2 larger share of practice with the 1s?
Do you go with a clean switch or keep Eli as the starter and only play the guy when games are out of hand?
Does the plan change if it's a rookie vs Rosen vs guy already in the roster?
Or does Eli start all 16?
Do we wait for mathematical elimination like in 17?
When do you start giving QB2 larger share of practice with the 1s?
Do you go with a clean switch or keep Eli as the starter and only play the guy when games are out of hand?
Does the plan change if it's a rookie vs Rosen vs guy already in the roster?
Or does Eli start all 16?
Most teams who are grooming an heir start the new QB when he is ready. Full stop, end of story. They make the transition immediately when they think the high draft pick heir gets it and plays at the same speed as the game. This is usually within eight games of the first season. KC may have been a slightly different case because they were already a super bowl contender with Alex Smith playing the best ball of his career. IMO, the Giants are not equivalent to KC. They are obviously not a super bowl contender, Therefore, if they acquire the heir this year, he should start as soon as he is deemed to be ready to start for the team.
Quote:
In comment 14382924 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
If we called the Chiefs right now and offered them 6, Barkley, Engram and Hernandez for Mahomes they would laugh.
And I hope we would too if that was offered to us.
Huh? You wouldn't trade that for Mahomes? What game are you watching? Like seriously when you turn on a football game what do you think is going on there? Mahomes is worth three Barkleys, assuming Mahomes continues to play at or near his 2018 level. Barkley is a damn running back. You can get three journeymen at RB and have the best rushing attack in the league. I seriously don't understand the things you say. You seem like a fairly intelligent fellow.. Mahomes is damn near worth the entire Giants roster. If I could take nothing but Mahomes and build fresh or have the Giants roster I would take the former.
Giving up Barkley engram hill and this years 6th overall pick for one player? Are you fucking insane. What the hell would Mahomes do with this roster? No run game? No defense.
Seriously this place has no clue how to manage a team.
And you still don’t contribute a single thread you participate in. Great job as always.
Quote:
What do you think should be the plan to get another QB playing time if the season goes south?
Do we wait for mathematical elimination like in 17?
When do you start giving QB2 larger share of practice with the 1s?
Do you go with a clean switch or keep Eli as the starter and only play the guy when games are out of hand?
Does the plan change if it's a rookie vs Rosen vs guy already in the roster?
Or does Eli start all 16?
Most teams who are grooming an heir start the new QB when he is ready. Full stop, end of story. They make the transition immediately when they think the high draft pick heir gets it and plays at the same speed as the game. This is usually within eight games of the first season. KC may have been a slightly different case because they were already a super bowl contender with Alex Smith playing the best ball of his career. IMO, the Giants are not equivalent to KC. They are obviously not a super bowl contender, Therefore, if they acquire the heir this year, he should start as soon as he is deemed to be ready to start for the team.
I think you overestimate how much work the back ups get in season.
Unless he starts getting work with the 1s, how can you tell when he is ready?
Quote:
In comment 14382939 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14382924 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
If we called the Chiefs right now and offered them 6, Barkley, Engram and Hernandez for Mahomes they would laugh.
And I hope we would too if that was offered to us.
Huh? You wouldn't trade that for Mahomes? What game are you watching? Like seriously when you turn on a football game what do you think is going on there? Mahomes is worth three Barkleys, assuming Mahomes continues to play at or near his 2018 level. Barkley is a damn running back. You can get three journeymen at RB and have the best rushing attack in the league. I seriously don't understand the things you say. You seem like a fairly intelligent fellow.. Mahomes is damn near worth the entire Giants roster. If I could take nothing but Mahomes and build fresh or have the Giants roster I would take the former.
Giving up Barkley engram hill and this years 6th overall pick for one player? Are you fucking insane. What the hell would Mahomes do with this roster? No run game? No defense.
Seriously this place has no clue how to manage a team.
This is a joke, right? You would never get Mahomes for that package. If it was offered to you, you accept immediately and go celebrate. The NFL is a passing league, now more than ever. The QB reigns now more than at any other time. The top QB is invaluable, just ask Bill Belichick. Mahomes is not just one player. He is a golden ticket. Put a team around him and you are a perennial contender. That's not Barkley, I hate to tell you this. It is a binary. Either you have one of those guys or you don't. Mahomes is one of those guys. It is stupid to even discuss what it would take to trade for him because you don't have enough. They would never trade him.
This is why Lauletta should have started every game after 1-7 last season. That was one of many Gettleman/Shurmur errors in year 1.
Quote:
the player most likely headed for decline, Wilson is overrated, but Eli is still good. Got it!
And you still don’t contribute a single thread you participate in. Great job as always.
Come on man. I know you and I don’t see eye to eye. But the Mahomes claim was outrageous and the opposite of the truth.
Quote:
In comment 14382981 ron mexico said:
Quote:
What do you think should be the plan to get another QB playing time if the season goes south?
Do we wait for mathematical elimination like in 17?
When do you start giving QB2 larger share of practice with the 1s?
Do you go with a clean switch or keep Eli as the starter and only play the guy when games are out of hand?
Does the plan change if it's a rookie vs Rosen vs guy already in the roster?
Or does Eli start all 16?
Most teams who are grooming an heir start the new QB when he is ready. Full stop, end of story. They make the transition immediately when they think the high draft pick heir gets it and plays at the same speed as the game. This is usually within eight games of the first season. KC may have been a slightly different case because they were already a super bowl contender with Alex Smith playing the best ball of his career. IMO, the Giants are not equivalent to KC. They are obviously not a super bowl contender, Therefore, if they acquire the heir this year, he should start as soon as he is deemed to be ready to start for the team.
I think you overestimate how much work the back ups get in season.
Unless he starts getting work with the 1s, how can you tell when he is ready?
When you draft or acquire a young heir one of your main jobs is to figure out when he is ready to step in. Somehow the four big guys all started by midseason last year: Mayfield, Darnold. Allen, Rosen. You invest a first rounder in a guy like that and the clock starts ticking. They supplant the veteran as soon as they are ready. Anything else is malpractice. The longer you put off starting him, the longer you are delaying the success of your program. For GMs and coaches, with their jobs on the line, they need to transition as quickly as they can.
Do we wait for mathematical elimination like in 17?
When do you start giving QB2 larger share of practice with the 1s?
Do you go with a clean switch or keep Eli as the starter and only play the guy when games are out of hand?
Does the plan change if it's a rookie vs Rosen vs guy already in the roster?
Or does Eli start all 16?
Well, for me, as soon as Eli has a bad half I go with the new QB... ;)
With Rosen, I would start him immediately. But I realize that's Fantasy Island thinking. But since he's had NFL experience, I have a much tighter leash on Eli if things start to go poorly - like 2 or 3 games in a row where he plays poorly and the team loses. Then he gets the hook and Rosen is in. So if Eli is spitting the bit after the first three weeks in September, adios.
Otherwise, probably when we are at 8 losses, or mathematically eliminated. Whichever comes first.
With a rookie, I'm probably waiting until half way through the season. In games where we are losing big in the 4th quarter, maybe bring him in for a few series to get his feet wet. But it's still probably 8 losses or mathematically out.
But even then, I would like to start the rookie right away. I think there is enough offensive infrastructure to ease him into more responsibility as the season progresses. Alas, Eli's presence stunts that deep-end-of-the-pool growth opportunity...
All Mahomes did was throw for an additional 1,000 yards and almost twice as many touchdowns as the Pro Bowl QB he replaced. If you're trying to dismiss what Mahomes accomplished simply because the guy who he replaced happened to be competent, you might be reaching a new low.
Keep after it though, I know you can beat your high score tomorrow.
He's the reigning MVP. I'm pretty sure he's getting love on all the boards. Someone should go over to the Chiefs board and see if they would do that deal suggested here. I'm pretty sure if you posted it on the Raiders/Chargers boards they would say the Chiefs should jump at the deal. I'm pretty sure they are not excited about the prospect of contending with Mahomes for the next 15 years.
Quote:
In comment 14382956 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
the player most likely headed for decline, Wilson is overrated, but Eli is still good. Got it!
And you still don’t contribute a single thread you participate in. Great job as always.
Come on man. I know you and I don’t see eye to eye. But the Mahomes claim was outrageous and the opposite of the truth.
You know what decline means? It means he threw for over 5000 yards and 50 TDS.... the chances of him repeating that is going to be quite difficult. Hence why I think he declines.
Quote:
In comment 14382988 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14382956 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
the player most likely headed for decline, Wilson is overrated, but Eli is still good. Got it!
And you still don’t contribute a single thread you participate in. Great job as always.
Come on man. I know you and I don’t see eye to eye. But the Mahomes claim was outrageous and the opposite of the truth.
You know what decline means? It means he threw for over 5000 yards and 50 TDS.... the chances of him repeating that is going to be quite difficult. Hence why I think he declines.
Oh I do totally agree he is likely to regress somewhat from that special season. But all the greats do after their signature seasons, but they put up a few more before they retire. But most importantly they don't ever have or rarely have, crap seasons. An average Peyton Manning season is amazing for most other qbs.
You put Mahomes on most rosters last year and he probably throws for 35-40 TDs.
The same sad Giants offense swapping Mahomes and Eli would have been one of the top ones in the league with Mahomes. Oline warts and all.
I honestly can't believe this has turned into a Mahomes is one the decline not as good as you think he is thread. The lengths people go to prop up Eli are truly amazing. They know no bounds.
You put Mahomes on most rosters last year and he probably throws for 35-40 TDs.
The same sad Giants offense swapping Mahomes and Eli would have been one of the top ones in the league with Mahomes. Oline warts and all.
I honestly can't believe this has turned into a Mahomes is one the decline not as good as you think he is thread. The lengths people go to prop up Eli are truly amazing. They know no bounds.
For some who claims to be smart. You can’t read.
No one is comparing Eli to Mahomes. Not one single poster. And the decline comment is in regards to his stats due to the fact of how great they were last year.
But other than that.... just a great job of analysis.