On the crazy Russell Wilson/Cowherd 3 way deal thread jtgiants (who's been a fantastic resource for all of us this and past offseasons) said the following about the Giants cutting Eli:
| The Giants cutting Eli now would be a dick move and sever his relationship with the Giants by forcing his retirement. They won't do that to him or his legacy. Like it or not it isn't happening. |
I'm not trying to put jtgiants on the spot...I think he's plugged in and giving us an accurate perspective into the Giants' thinking.
You can not operate a football team this way. It's very difficult to win in the NFL if you're making critical decisions based on post-football relationships and legacies. If ever there were a time to ask "What would Belichick do?", this is it.
I very rarely start threads, but I felt this deserved one because jtgiants captured perfectly why Eli is still the QB - and it's not just about winning in 2019.
Quote:
In comment 14382988 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14382956 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
the player most likely headed for decline, Wilson is overrated, but Eli is still good. Got it!
And you still don’t contribute a single thread you participate in. Great job as always.
Come on man. I know you and I don’t see eye to eye. But the Mahomes claim was outrageous and the opposite of the truth.
You know what decline means? It means he threw for over 5000 yards and 50 TDS.... the chances of him repeating that is going to be quite difficult. Hence why I think he declines.
Saying his play declines or his stats decline?
Or are they the same thing?
This is why Lauletta should have started every game after 1-7 last season. That was one of many Gettleman/Shurmur errors in year 1.
I get the feeling that Eli likes to get as many practice reps as he can. It's how he is used to preparing. It's what makes him such a pro.
It's not so easy to start sitting up those reps.
Quote:
The same guy who had a pro bowl in the same offense pro bowler Alex Smith dif.
He's the reigning MVP. I'm pretty sure he's getting love on all the boards. Someone should go over to the Chiefs board and see if they would do that deal suggested here. I'm pretty sure if you posted it on the Raiders/Chargers boards they would say the Chiefs should jump at the deal. I'm pretty sure they are not excited about the prospect of contending with Mahomes for the next 15 years.
Very reminiscent of Trent Green and Kurt Warner.
Branch out and let us know...
As a fan I always want the team building towards a championship. That pursuit is a continuum sometimes, I accept that.
I hope it's a given to fans the QB has a disproportionately big impact on a team relative to other positions. It's the most important position.
A QB in my view has three phases in his career
; ascending, peaking, declining. The bounds are different based on myriad factors. Very often the peak is unimpressive, virtually never is the decline impressive.
Manning's peak was impressive. Is his decline? I'd say no, which makes him equal to every QB short of Elway, Favre, and Brady in the last 25 years.
So in his decline what value does Manning serve to the Giants? If the goal is to always be building toward a championship, where does Manning fit?
Yeah, probably not. I imagine LC fans are all like, "men, he's not so great. Smith was doing just as well."
I hate phones.
As a fan I always want the team building towards a championship. That pursuit is a continuum sometimes, I accept that.
I hope it's a given to fans the QB has a disproportionately big impact on a team relative to other positions. It's the most important position.
A QB in my view has three phases in his career
; ascending, peaking, declining. The bounds are different based on myriad factors. Very often the peak is unimpressive, virtually never is the decline impressive.
Manning's peak was impressive. Is his decline? I'd say no, which makes him equal to every QB short of Elway, Favre, and Brady in the last 25 years.
So in his decline what value does Manning serve to the Giants? If the goal is to always be building toward a championship, where does Manning fit?
You mention John Elway. Where did John Elway fit going into 1996, 1997? He was nearing the end and four seasons of .500 or sub .500 years and his numbers and performance was dropping off. But under a new coach, and revitalized running attack offense, he managed the game and led the team to two titles. We all have visions of that first Superbowl of him putting it all on the line and helicoptering into the endzone, but what made that so impressive, and "this one's for John", was that he was old and that was a flash of the old Elway.
What purpose did Kurt Warner serve in Arizona going into 2008 and 2009? He was washed up by all accounts and not capable of playing at a high level anymore, and hadn't really been since 2001 with the Rams (yeah, he started 5-4 with the Giants but his performance was as much a reason for his benching as Manning waiting in the wings).
By your definition of what a team is... "building towards a championship", then outside of 6-7 teams the rest of the entire NFL should be looking for a new QB, no? Where do most of the QB's in the NFL fit?
There are quite a few examples of QB's saddled with poor teams who aren't considered the only problem.
The NFL is fluid. I know it doesn't seem like it, but with a couple of right moves and a couple of good bounces, a team can go from a sub .500 team to fighting for a playoff spot pretty quickly.
Manning can be a placeholder, while we find the new QB, and hey, what if? What if the team gets a couple breaks next season, we're sitting at 5-4, or 6-4, and in the hunt. Things are clicking, team starts playing with a little confidence. That's where having an Eli Manning over a Ryan Fitzpatrick has value.
And that may not happen either, and we may go 5-11 again next year as many of you predict, and we'll be looking at the top 10 in the draft again. Okay, well there's no harm done if that happens either. Insert the new QB (or draft him at that time), and move on from Manning.
The real problem with this conversation is that those that support management's decision to hang with Eli also see the need to draft a new QB and have a plan for the future. They all to a man acknowledge that and want that. Conversely, those of you that don't want Manning on the team anymore in any shape or form can't, or refuse to, acknowledge that in some scenarios he can still provide value. That's the stalemate. You want Manning gone at all costs, even if it means we have a scrub at QB for a year. And as much as you beat the drum for logic and reason, that is the illogical, narrow minded, and unreasonable take.
On their backs collecting a ring as the Trent Dilfer of that team. I'm sure you're trying to make a point there, but I'm not sure what it is. That a team that's constructed incredibly efficiently can overcome having a washed-up Manning at QB?
Yes, the obstinate one here is clearly me. No question about it.
I guess you think if you say anything often enough it'll be true, whether it's about Eli, or about people failing to see your point. Can't wait for your inevitable chest-puff thread after Eli's first big game this season. That'll be a blast.
Quote:
you can't, or refuse to, see the point.
Yes, the obstinate one here is clearly me. No question about it.
I guess you think if you say anything often enough it'll be true, whether it's about Eli, or about people failing to see your point. Can't wait for your inevitable chest-puff thread after Eli's first big game this season. That'll be a blast.
Seems to me the ones that are trying to will something into existence are the ones starting two to three threads a day on this subject.
So what exactly am I trying to make true?
Always love to see the D give up 400+ yards and a late TD to overcome a late score by NYG only to hear that the game was lost on a 1st quarter INT. Those are much more illuminating.....
Quote:
Can't wait for your inevitable chest-puff thread after Eli's first big game this season. That'll be a blast.
Always love to see the D give up 400+ yards and a late TD to overcome a late score by NYG only to hear that the game was lost on a 1st quarter INT. Those are much more illuminating.....
I’m partial to Eli leading us from behind with multiple TDs in the 4th quarter only to fail to get a score with under a minute to go therefore showing he doesn’t have it anymore.
As a fan I always want the team building towards a championship. That pursuit is a continuum sometimes, I accept that.
I hope it's a given to fans the QB has a disproportionately big impact on a team relative to other positions. It's the most important position.
A QB in my view has three phases in his career
; ascending, peaking, declining. The bounds are different based on myriad factors. Very often the peak is unimpressive, virtually never is the decline impressive.
Manning's peak was impressive. Is his decline? I'd say no, which makes him equal to every QB short of Elway, Favre, and Brady in the last 25 years.
So in his decline what value does Manning serve to the Giants? If the goal is to always be building toward a championship, where does Manning fit?
Manning is keepin the most important position of the field stable and capable, while we build up the numerous areas in the team that we need to. That is what value he is adding, and its a critical part. You can't change everything and also QB, that would become a complete mess and actually hurt the process. The players would have no hope, becomes disgruntled, and the good ones leave. New free agents wouldn't want to come, and the rookie QB would be taking a pounding that could actually hurt his development. When the team has improved enough, hopefully after this season, plug in the future QB and deal with the growing pains under a rookie cheap contract. Ideally he could sit for a year to learn the system, gain the respect of the players, and minimize the growing pains.
So what exactly am I trying to make true?
Only one team in the NFC has lost more games than the Giants dating back to their last SB victory in 2011. Let's not pretend like this organization is infallible just because they happen to be making a decision you agree with.
Throwing Peyton's role on a stacked Broncos team out as some sort of guiding example absolutely comes across as an attempt to justify your opinion as anything other than the same sentimentality that this thread's premise is based upon.
Quote:
That's what I thought would happen, and what I think should happen.
So what exactly am I trying to make true?
Only one team in the NFC has lost more games than the Giants dating back to their last SB victory in 2011. Let's not pretend like this organization is infallible just because they happen to be making a decision you agree with.
Throwing Peyton's role on a stacked Broncos team out as some sort of guiding example absolutely comes across as an attempt to justify your opinion as anything other than the same sentimentality that this thread's premise is based upon.
It wasn't used as a guiding example. It was used as a response to a very specific question.
Why are you locked in on that one single example? There were other examples given.
Outside of Barkley, every player on the team is only getting faint praise.
That's what happens on bad teams where fingers are pointed in multiple directions. Name a player other than Barkley who gets or got a ton of praise? Collins? Nope. People soured on him. Beckham? Ha ha.
This isn't the point being debated anyway is it? There are basically a large group of posters who flat out believe Eli can't play anymore. That's always the point being kicked until mutilation.
Quote:
In comment 14383521 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
That's what I thought would happen, and what I think should happen.
So what exactly am I trying to make true?
Only one team in the NFC has lost more games than the Giants dating back to their last SB victory in 2011. Let's not pretend like this organization is infallible just because they happen to be making a decision you agree with.
Throwing Peyton's role on a stacked Broncos team out as some sort of guiding example absolutely comes across as an attempt to justify your opinion as anything other than the same sentimentality that this thread's premise is based upon.
It wasn't used as a guiding example. It was used as a response to a very specific question.
Why are you locked in on that one single example? There were other examples given.
Because that one stuck out as a wild example. And just like you were trying to avoid the onslaught of pushback for saying Eli is still capable of championship-level football, I may have been doing the same by avoiding saying that Eli has never been in Elway's league as a QB, even in their respective primes. But your Elway example is much more consistent with what we should be hoping for than your Peyton example. The more recent Broncos team won that SB in spite of Peyton, not because of him.
You do it even there. You don't say, "Eli is playing at a championship level". You say "is capable of playing at championship level".
And it's not just you and other posters, it's the team. They don't say, "Eli is still playing well", they say, "Eli can still play".
There seems to be an acknowledgement that he hasn't been getting the job done, even if the belief is that he still can.
I dislike him so much that I didn't even want to entertain that one.
Quote:
or backhanded comments, it's only because I'm measuring my words to avoid the verbal onslaught that would ensue if I said that I do, in fact, think Eli is still capable of playing at championship level. Because I know my opinion would be dismissed if I said that and I'm trying to have a "constructive" dialog about it.
You do it even there. You don't say, "Eli is playing at a championship level". You say "is capable of playing at championship level".
And it's not just you and other posters, it's the team. They don't say, "Eli is still playing well", they say, "Eli can still play".
There seems to be an acknowledgement that he hasn't been getting the job done, even if the belief is that he still can.
there's a lot of religion in it. "Eli can still play" are precisely the unassailable set of words that the viewpoint requires.
Which doesn't qualify it as 'wrong' out of hand, IMO. But for people to act like the opposite viewpoint is crazy or uninformed is what I find baffling.
To be fair, it started terribly, with Terp intentionally misstating someone else's post. Got it so bad that the OP came to the thread and corrected him.
But the agenda is strong.
Elway in ‘97 and ‘98 still had a great asset - his arm talent. That never went away. His only skill that eroded was his maneuverability. So it made sense to continue to ride with him.
Same with Favre. At least you knew he could still make every throw.
Eli’s physical skills are eroding. If you can’t see it, you’re either too stubborn or don’t understand the game. He can’t make every throw game after game. It’s just not there. And his movement is just brutally bad. So what’s his value? His mind? That’s been overrated since he arrived. He’s been a turnover machine with his “great decision” making.
Britt, Fat-Mara, dep et al are the part of the fan base Mara targets. The dreamers; those who have endless hope. They are delusional enough to think - “well, if Brady and Brees can do it, so can our 38 year old 2x champion...” This type of thinking is hindering this organization’s ability to think clearly and get to a brighter future.
And the Peyton/Denver example is almost as dumb. Indeed, Peyton was washed up. But that D was tremendous and controlled the game by creating great field position and turnovers. Manning was a passenger and needed to make a few plays per game, especially in the playoffs where Denver had home field.
Remind of the great D we have so Eli can manage the game, please.
bw is a Giants’ troll and has been for the 18+ years I know him.
😂😂
Yeah, he’s been calling him that for awhile now..
That's been mischaracterized, and mostly by my arch nemesis Fat-Mara.
bw is a Giants’ troll and has been for the 18+ years I know him.
I'm the biggest Giants fan on this board. And the most honest. ;)
Quote:
bw is a Giants’ troll and has been for the 18+ years I know him.
I'm the biggest Giants fan on this board. And the most honest. ;)
😂😂😂
Quote:
so there's that.
That's been mischaracterized, and mostly by my arch nemesis Fat-Mara.
I was picturing more like my Archie (since you dislike the name so much) vs. Jughead!!
Elway was a top-five QB in 1995 and 1996 before their eventually Superbowl runs in 97' and 98'. His team was also the Number 1 seed in the AFC in 96'! How is that situation comparable to Eli?!
In the stretch that Rivers missed the playoffs 7 of 8 years, the chargers had four winning seasons and one .500 season. They only actually had three losing seasons in this stretch. Plus Rivers played well throughout, throwing 33 touchdowns in their 2016 5-11 season. It's a lot easier to make the case that the team improvement is greater priority than replacing the QB.
Warner is probably the best example, except he hadn't been a full time starter for a while until was re-instated in 2007. He went 5-6 and played above-average - not great - which was enough to get him the job in 2008. Most similar to Eli but even he was playing better at the time.
Elway was a top-five QB in 1995 and 1996 before their eventually Superbowl runs in 97' and 98'. His team was also the Number 1 seed in the AFC in 96'! How is that situation comparable to Eli?!
In the stretch that Rivers missed the playoffs 7 of 8 years, the chargers had four winning seasons and one .500 season. They only actually had three losing seasons in this stretch. Plus Rivers played well throughout, throwing 33 touchdowns in their 2016 5-11 season. It's a lot easier to make the case that the team improvement is greater priority than replacing the QB.
Warner is probably the best example, except he hadn't been a full time starter for a while until was re-instated in 2007. He went 5-6 and played above-average - not great - which was enough to get him the job in 2008. Most similar to Eli but even he was playing better at the time.
More ESPN imagineering fake news. Warner qbr 3 years before Arizona, 67, 72, 86. Elway 60s and 70s during the prime of his career.
And derp, Rivers always generally had a better rating. Helps when you play with HoFers on offense, while Eli played with 0.