but I also want to see us get a guy in here sooner rather than later to replace him in either 2020, or partway through that season if things aren’t looking great.
I know some are recently down on Haskins, but he’s a guy that would be a perfect fit to sit for a year and learn behind Eli. I heard Weis on NFL Radio this morning saying that he feels Will Grier is the guy that would be the most ready to play right away due to maturity and experience, but Haskins has the highest upside of all of the QB’s in this draft (outside of Murray). Weis nailed it with his love of Mayfield last year over the other three prospects (Allen, Rosen, and Darnold), so far at least.
I don’t have the expertise to evaluate an NFL quarterback or know how much he can still play
But what I do know is 8-24, and 38, Eli s age. Which begs the question:
Do you believe the Giants will win another Super Bowl before Eli is done. If you believe yes, then any desire to keep passing on a quarterback to live in the moment is justified.
If you believe no, which I believe is the Giants position or else they would have signed him to an extension, it s hard to justify kicking the ball down the road.
All the reasons given over the past two seasons to past on quarterbacks, rooted I believe in a desire to keep the clock from beginning to tick on Eli, Miss an important point:
With Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Haskins, Lock, etc. the Giants move on to the new era and can stop chasing past glory, which for 7 years has led to some awful football.
To 5 handles this could be here.
That’s a nice highlight video- where is the part that does proper analysis instead of generic comments and cherry picking?
Of course there are windows of good play- and of course there is a 5 year window of elite play from Eli 2007 playoffs through 2012. But dear lord - this must be the video that Mara walked into dgs office with—— see Dave it’s not his fault. - it’s smart to have a 3 yr plan built around him and pay him 23m a year at this age/level of play- it’s good for the future of the franchise
If someone says that Manning has always been a mediocre quarterback who just had two fluke lucky years then perhaps that might apply. But as feeling now that it is time to replace him, how many NFL teams have ever started a 39 year old quarterback who, in his last seven seasons, has a record of 47-65 with one playoff game?
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
If someone says that Manning has always been a mediocre quarterback who just had two fluke lucky years then perhaps that might apply. But as feeling now that it is time to replace him, how many NFL teams have ever started a 39 year old quarterback who, in his last seven seasons, has a record of 47-65 with one playoff game?
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
47-65. Yikes, How does anyone dismiss the quarterback’s role in that record.
if Eli doesn't get time to throw he is in trouble because of mobility not his arm. So the Giants are doing the right thing in finally building a Oline. Lets hope we can build a better defense.
We’re going to find out, one way or another, this year aren’t we? Â
If someone says that Manning has always been a mediocre quarterback who just had two fluke lucky years then perhaps that might apply. But as feeling now that it is time to replace him, how many NFL teams have ever started a 39 year old quarterback who, in his last seven seasons, has a record of 47-65 with one playoff game?
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
47-65. Yikes, How does anyone dismiss the quarterback’s role in that record.
I'll ask this like I have many other threads:
"Are there any posters saying Eli doesn't deserve some blame??"
I'll also point to Philip Rivers, a guy many on BBI called the MVP of last season. He went through a stretch where his team missed the playoffs 7 out of 8 years. Had a 12 loss season and an 11 loss season.
How many people truly believe Rivers was the main reason for that drought? Compare that to how many people think Eli is the main reason (if not the sole reason) for our drought
The Defense can't hold leads
The WRs run the wrong routes
Poor playcalling
The dog ate my homework...
It’s always Eli’s fault.
No dep. But some of us believe he shares in the blame.
So that means that other people on the offense screwed up? Gee golly, thats been something that has been tried to be said here but is usually countered with "youre an eli lover" "you're an eli apologist" or what ever nonsense was written that I replied too.
There are two daily occurrences here that are as sure as the sun rising and setting...
1. An Eli Manning thread.
2. An Odell Beckham thread.
Same people arguing the same points day after day.
It's actually exhausting just seeing the threads and barely even reading them at all anymore.
This draft cannot come soon enough.
These threads are an interesting study in human behavior. The same people making the same arguments they have made 1,000 times, yet they still come on and post the same thing over and over.
I wonder what they are expecting to happen in this thread that is different than the last thousand on the same topic?
His yards last year were the 4th highest of his career.
His completion percentage was the highest of his career
His interceptions were the 2nd lowest of his career (not counting year 1)
He also had 3 games with 0 TD’s and 7 games with 1 TD.
If Eli Manning puts up a few more TD’s in those games... We are talking about how Eli (at 37) put up one of the best statistical seasons of his career.
I think the talk of his demise has been highly exaggerated. Let’s not forget also, that NONE of those stats were garbage time stats. Outside the Saints and TENN games, The Giants were in every one of those games last year. Margin of loss was less than 7 points.
There is reason for optimism. The boys played hard for PS. Character issue guys are gone (for the most part) and we SHOULD have an upgraded OL.
I can’t wait for the draft. There is reason for optimism.
After a certain point, no one is going to change anyone else's mind.
But everyone just keeps trying.
That will hopefully be my last Eli post, at least as it pertains to pro and cons. My post above was simple and to the point, but yes, I say the same fucking thing every time. So, people are indeed dug in, both ways
RE: RE: RE: Why must you say “haters going to hate.” Â
In comment 14382056 FatMan in Charlotte said:
[quote] In comment 14381985 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 14381982 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
Quote:
If someone says that Manning has always been a mediocre quarterback who just had two fluke lucky years then perhaps that might apply. But as feeling now that it is time to replace him, how many NFL teams have ever started a 39 year old quarterback who, in his last seven seasons, has a record of 47-65 with one playoff game?
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
47-65. Yikes, How does anyone dismiss the quarterback’s role in that record.
I'll ask this like I have many other threads:
"Are there any posters saying Eli doesn't deserve some blame??"
I thought I ve read more than once Eli is the same guy he s always been,
I guess Archie was a shit QB too, because he never had a winning record.
Football is a TEAM sport. People say "Eli has a losing record over the last few years." No THE GIANTS have had the losing record. Eli was just the QB. Sure, he played a part in it. But the other factors mentioned -- dismal protection, no running game, Defenses that couldn't hold 4th quarter leads that Eli often provided -- also played parts. Often bigger parts. Don't forget bad drafting, too.
About the picks -- you know who else threw tons of picks? Favre, Marino, Unitas, Brees -- lots of HOF QBs people rate higher than Eli. Gunslinger QBs take chances.
People don't realize Eli has never been a play-it-safe QB. And if you want that, you're a pussy. You don't get the Manningham SB-winning throw with a play-it-safe QB. You don't get Tyree either, and yes -- there was a TON of luck on that play, but a play-it-safe QB NEVER makes that throw to begin with, so you don't even have the chance for a miracle.
Zac Shomler's Eli video said one VERY INTERESTING thing that I don't know if anyone else here picked up on. He said:
"Eli ALWAYS makes the right decision with the football -- EXCEPT when he (was) throwing to OBJ."
That is, when Eli took chances, and would force the ball into riskier spots, it was ALWAYS to OBJ -- betting on OBJ's brilliance to make a big play. And frankly, if you're gonna take a chance, and OBJ's on your team, why wouldn't you do it that way?
You don't think the coaches KNEW he was doing that? It's clear on the film that that's what he was doing. You don't think his head coaches OK'd that approach?
Now that OBJ is gone, Eli has less reason to take those chances, and will probably be more efficient.
But nothing posted here matters. Guys who think Eli's done aren't going to be reasoned out of it, because you weren't reasoned into it. Fortunately, it ain't your call.
I don't see it that way, but if I needed a second opinion to corroborate what my own eyes tell me, I'd trust these guys who've actually played football, and can break down film; and professional film-room rats like Gettleman a lot more than anyone here. Those folks are all saying he can still play effectively.
I guess you guys who disagree will just have to lump-it until they find the next guy, and pray that guy isn't Kent Graham.
The Defense can't hold leads
The WRs run the wrong routes
Poor playcalling
The dog ate my homework...
It’s always Eli’s fault.
No dep. But some of us believe he shares in the blame.
So that means that other people on the offense screwed up? Gee golly, thats been something that has been tried to be said here but is usually countered with "youre an eli lover" "you're an eli apologist" or what ever nonsense was written that I replied too.
For the sake of conversation, why don't you tell us how much of the blame you think Eli actually does deserve? And why don't you tell us one or two examples of when you felt like a loss was squarely on Eli? That would probably help show that you do actually have a balanced perspective on it.
RE: RE: Why must you say “haters going to hate.” Â
About the picks -- you know who else threw tons of picks? Favre, Marino, Unitas, Brees -- lots of HOF QBs people rate higher than Eli. Gunslinger QBs take chances.
Did any of those guys lead the NFL in turnovers for the entirely of their career? Did any of them lead the league in turnovers three separate times during their career?
Gunslingers do take chances, that's true. Eli - partly due to scheme and partly due to his own play - has been more careless with the ball than any of the others that you listed.
For the sake of conversation, why don't you tell us how much of the blame you think Eli actually does deserve? And why don't you tell us one or two examples of when you felt like a loss was squarely on Eli? That would probably help show that you do actually have a balanced perspective on it.
Percentage of blame? Oh for fucks sake. How about we make this simple. Lets talk about the games where Eli didnt help us win.
- 1st Eagles game
- Tennesee
- First Washington game
- You want to throw first Dallas game, be my guest. Ill blame the OL more for that one.
So by my calculations (ill make up a formula like PFF and QBR does because thats the cool thing to do.), ill put the the percentage at 26.7%?
About the picks -- you know who else threw tons of picks? Favre, Marino, Unitas, Brees -- lots of HOF QBs people rate higher than Eli. Gunslinger QBs take chances.
Did any of those guys lead the NFL in turnovers for the entirely of their career? Did any of them lead the league in turnovers three separate times during their career?
Gunslingers do take chances, that's true. Eli - partly due to scheme and partly due to his own play - has been more careless with the ball than any of the others that you listed.
Favre led the league in INTs 3 times
Ben, Rivers, Unitas, Moon led the league in INTs twice
Joe Namath led the league 4 times.
Those are some quick examples... but I guess they wont be classified as gunslingers and poor play on their part.
About the picks -- you know who else threw tons of picks? Favre, Marino, Unitas, Brees -- lots of HOF QBs people rate higher than Eli. Gunslinger QBs take chances.
Did any of those guys lead the NFL in turnovers for the entirely of their career? Did any of them lead the league in turnovers three separate times during their career?
Gunslingers do take chances, that's true. Eli - partly due to scheme and partly due to his own play - has been more careless with the ball than any of the others that you listed.
Are you sure about this??
Eli and Favre both led the league in INT's three times. Those were the only times Eli threw over 20 INT's. Favre did it 6 times.
Unitas only led the league in INT's 2 times, Brees and Marino once.
For the sake of conversation, why don't you tell us how much of the blame you think Eli actually does deserve? And why don't you tell us one or two examples of when you felt like a loss was squarely on Eli? That would probably help show that you do actually have a balanced perspective on it.
Percentage of blame? Oh for fucks sake. How about we make this simple. Lets talk about the games where Eli didnt help us win.
- 1st Eagles game
- Tennesee
- First Washington game
- You want to throw first Dallas game, be my guest. Ill blame the OL more for that one.
So by my calculations (ill make up a formula like PFF and QBR does because thats the cool thing to do.), ill put the the percentage at 26.7%?
Sounds good skippy?
My point was, you seem to get sensitive about being called an Eli apologist or whatever, but that stems from defending Eli at every turn and at no point putting any of the blame on him for this extended stretch of stench. The request for a percentage of the blame was largely rhetorical - I just was wondering whether you actually think he deserves any blame at all. Even in your reply above, you shifted the question from are there losses for which Eli is responsible to here are some games that he didn't help win.
We just see it differently, and probably will continue to. At least it makes for lively discussion.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Why must you say “haters going to hate.” Â
For the sake of conversation, why don't you tell us how much of the blame you think Eli actually does deserve? And why don't you tell us one or two examples of when you felt like a loss was squarely on Eli? That would probably help show that you do actually have a balanced perspective on it.
Percentage of blame? Oh for fucks sake. How about we make this simple. Lets talk about the games where Eli didnt help us win.
- 1st Eagles game
- Tennesee
- First Washington game
- You want to throw first Dallas game, be my guest. Ill blame the OL more for that one.
So by my calculations (ill make up a formula like PFF and QBR does because thats the cool thing to do.), ill put the the percentage at 26.7%?
Sounds good skippy?
My point was, you seem to get sensitive about being called an Eli apologist or whatever, but that stems from defending Eli at every turn and at no point putting any of the blame on him for this extended stretch of stench. The request for a percentage of the blame was largely rhetorical - I just was wondering whether you actually think he deserves any blame at all. Even in your reply above, you shifted the question from are there losses for which Eli is responsible to here are some games that he didn't help win.
We just see it differently, and probably will continue to. At least it makes for lively discussion.
Or maybe its just easier to look at it this way.
After a game we lose, there are 1000 Eli threads on why he cost us the game or how he doesnt have it. If I dare blame someone else or point out their ineffective play - it makes me an Eli-apologist.
About the picks -- you know who else threw tons of picks? Favre, Marino, Unitas, Brees -- lots of HOF QBs people rate higher than Eli. Gunslinger QBs take chances.
Did any of those guys lead the NFL in turnovers for the entirely of their career? Did any of them lead the league in turnovers three separate times during their career?
Gunslingers do take chances, that's true. Eli - partly due to scheme and partly due to his own play - has been more careless with the ball than any of the others that you listed.
Favre led the league in INTs 3 times
Ben, Rivers, Unitas, Moon led the league in INTs twice
Joe Namath led the league 4 times.
Those are some quick examples... but I guess they wont be classified as gunslingers and poor play on their part.
Ah, you're right about Favre. I should have known that he would have been right there with his style of play, too.
Other than Unitas, the others aren't even in David B's post, so why are they mentioned? Just historically great QBs and Eli's contemporaries who have lead the league in INTs multiple times? Fair point, I guess.
As for Namath, he's probably the most overrated QB in league history, IMO. I feel like even mentioning him in the same breath as Eli is insulting to Eli.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why must you say “haters going to hate.” Â
Ah, you're right about Favre. I should have known that he would have been right there with his style of play, too.
Other than Unitas, the others aren't even in David B's post, so why are they mentioned? Just historically great QBs and Eli's contemporaries who have lead the league in INTs multiple times? Fair point, I guess.
As for Namath, he's probably the most overrated QB in league history, IMO. I feel like even mentioning him in the same breath as Eli is insulting to Eli.
I picked QBs who have always been risky QBs who have thrown the ball. While people might not see that with Rivers and Ben - they have been. The differnece is they havent been in the position a lot to be in those situations. Brees up until the last 2-3 years was a big risk taker.
And these are all great QBs. HOF QBs. And the reason is great is that they have made throws that not only a lot of QBs cant make, but arent willing to make. It does lead to more turnovers, I agree.
but if Eli was a safe less-risky QB.... we would have 2 less SBs. Not something I would want just so he could throw less INTs.
Eli Manning is a bottom tier starting QB. the only way you can win consistently with him as your QB is with a dominant defense (or a defense facing a putrid backup like mark sanchez) and an offense built around a strong running game. earlier in his career, he was able to make plays off schedule, when things aren't perfect around him and lead the team to wins, but in the sunset of his career, we aren't seeing that consistently.
a metric that has tom brady basically top 5-6 every season the last 5 yrs... and generally identifies guys having good years-- and allows for some random guys to pop in when they are very efficient---- is a MUCH worse metric- then your eye test.... because??? it doesnt spit out the answer you want?
when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
he had a 79 QB in those playoffs which this year would have ranked the 3rd best in the NFL.
so he played amazing in that playoffs and it was reflected in the number? fantastic
Was my question hard to digest? I dont care what his ranking is back then to what it is now. I jut said rank his performances 1-4. Being that you probabl went and looked at those ratings - you will fudge to to support a bias claim, I get it.
How about his game against SF in the 2011 playoffs? Woof, what a dog of a game he had right? I think we won despite his play. I guess the game is viewed as an "outliner", right?
when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
he had a 79 QB in those playoffs which this year would have ranked the 3rd best in the NFL.
so he played amazing in that playoffs and it was reflected in the number? fantastic
Was my question hard to digest? I dont care what his ranking is back then to what it is now. I jut said rank his performances 1-4. Being that you probabl went and looked at those ratings - you will fudge to to support a bias claim, I get it.
How about his game against SF in the 2011 playoffs? Woof, what a dog of a game he had right? I think we won despite his play. I guess the game is viewed as an "outliner", right?
dep the data is consistent in pointing out that in that 4 game span-- eli manning was excellent/elite qb.
if u factor in the temperature of the gametime- Green Bay should be higher.... but i mean give me a break--- the metric says he played well in all the games- and he did. it says he played VERY well.
is saying he played better in some games than in others. and I asked you to rank the games because I could easily argue he was better against GB and NE than he was in the previous two games. And I could easily argue his game against SF in 2011 was probably the best game he ever played.
But do the ratings suggest that? Nope. But lets keep referring to them as if they have truth behind them.
he was excellent standing in there- the eye test was a better gauge then the statistics for that one-- but picking one game that it deemed as solid instead of spectacular doesnt make a time series irrelevant because it doesnt spit out the results over time that you want to see.
RE: and the SF game was a gutsy great performance Â
he was excellent standing in there- the eye test was a better gauge then the statistics for that one-- but picking one game that it deemed as solid instead of spectacular doesnt make a time series irrelevant because it doesnt spit out the results over time that you want to see.
I have picked 8 games between 2007 and 2011 now, and his 3 best games of his career were deemed 3 of his worst playoff performances for those 8.
in 2007 it says he was great.
in 2011 it says he was very good- and because the completion percentage was poor the SF game isnt as high as you or myself would like--- but over the course of the games you are talking about--- it says he played really well.
you can nitpick--- but the thing paints a good picture of WTF is going on. like anything with you--- if it doesnt spit out the results you want to see... its somehow wrong
I am judging how he performed by their metrics. The SF and 2007 GB games were viewed as his two worst games of those 2 SB runs. You know how f'n asinine that is?
Are you really going to support those metrics? Come on, you are much better than this.
when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
There's a bit of a problem with your suggestion here. A four-game sample may be sufficient (I'd argue that it's pretty low for statistical significance, but neither here nor there), but that's not actually what you're asking for here. You're asking for four separate one-game samples, ranked in order. A four-game sample would view those four games in the aggregate, not individually.
RE: RE: RE: Why must you say “haters going to hate.” Â
If someone says that Manning has always been a mediocre quarterback who just had two fluke lucky years then perhaps that might apply. But as feeling now that it is time to replace him, how many NFL teams have ever started a 39 year old quarterback who, in his last seven seasons, has a record of 47-65 with one playoff game?
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
47-65. Yikes, How does anyone dismiss the quarterback’s role in that record.
I'll ask this like I have many other threads:
"Are there any posters saying Eli doesn't deserve some blame??"
I'll also point to Philip Rivers, a guy many on BBI called the MVP of last season. He went through a stretch where his team missed the playoffs 7 out of 8 years. Had a 12 loss season and an 11 loss season.
How many people truly believe Rivers was the main reason for that drought? Compare that to how many people think Eli is the main reason (if not the sole reason) for our drought
That's why the topic is crazy. So inconsistent.
Those are fair points FMiC. It is why I have moved into the I don't know position. He should have an at least average OL and a great running game. He did well without OBJ and we added Tate and I expect another receiver in the draft. This year should give us the information we need.
when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
There's a bit of a problem with your suggestion here. A four-game sample may be sufficient (I'd argue that it's pretty low for statistical significance, but neither here nor there), but that's not actually what you're asking for here. You're asking for four separate one-game samples, ranked in order. A four-game sample would view those four games in the aggregate, not individually.
Ok, throw in the 2011 as well to make it 8 games.
And games should seen individually due to the fact is thats how they are graded. If they are going to pass out a grade for a game - why cant we view it versus the other games? I have faults with how games are graded. So I think its more than fair to question how Eli got a 59 QBR in a game where it could be argued it was probably the best game he ever played. Or a 72 in GB? I think if thats the metric that we should be basing how a player plays - maybe its not the best one to use, huh?
when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
There's a bit of a problem with your suggestion here. A four-game sample may be sufficient (I'd argue that it's pretty low for statistical significance, but neither here nor there), but that's not actually what you're asking for here. You're asking for four separate one-game samples, ranked in order. A four-game sample would view those four games in the aggregate, not individually.
Ok, throw in the 2011 as well to make it 8 games.
And games should seen individually due to the fact is thats how they are graded. If they are going to pass out a grade for a game - why cant we view it versus the other games? I have faults with how games are graded. So I think its more than fair to question how Eli got a 59 QBR in a game where it could be argued it was probably the best game he ever played. Or a 72 in GB? I think if thats the metric that we should be basing how a player plays - maybe its not the best one to use, huh?
I don't doubt that there are probably inherent flaws in the rating system. I happen to be a big proponent of stats in general (and not just football or even sports, broadly), but I recognize that most statistical analyses that try to isolate the contribution/failure of one single football player have to take some liberties in order to get there, so they're never really airtight.
Baseball, and even basketball, sure, individual stats do tell the story pretty well. Football is a bit tougher because of all the same things we argue about constantly with regard to Eli. How much of it is the fault/credit of other players, scheme, assignment, etc. vs. how much of it is truly representative of one individual player?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I always like to do a little test Â
when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
There's a bit of a problem with your suggestion here. A four-game sample may be sufficient (I'd argue that it's pretty low for statistical significance, but neither here nor there), but that's not actually what you're asking for here. You're asking for four separate one-game samples, ranked in order. A four-game sample would view those four games in the aggregate, not individually.
Ok, throw in the 2011 as well to make it 8 games.
And games should seen individually due to the fact is thats how they are graded. If they are going to pass out a grade for a game - why cant we view it versus the other games? I have faults with how games are graded. So I think its more than fair to question how Eli got a 59 QBR in a game where it could be argued it was probably the best game he ever played. Or a 72 in GB? I think if thats the metric that we should be basing how a player plays - maybe its not the best one to use, huh?
I don't doubt that there are probably inherent flaws in the rating system. I happen to be a big proponent of stats in general (and not just football or even sports, broadly), but I recognize that most statistical analyses that try to isolate the contribution/failure of one single football player have to take some liberties in order to get there, so they're never really airtight.
Baseball, and even basketball, sure, individual stats do tell the story pretty well. Football is a bit tougher because of all the same things we argue about constantly with regard to Eli. How much of it is the fault/credit of other players, scheme, assignment, etc. vs. how much of it is truly representative of one individual player?
And I dont have a problem people using them once in awhile either. My problem is using it to judge a players value and then comparing players.
I find way too many faults in their grading and the formulas to make fair comparisons on their worth and against other players.
There are no stats used to evaluate Qbs that are credible?
QB Rating
QBR
DVOA
None of those are good?
Are there any analysts that are good? We like them when we agree with the narrative we are trying to push.
It seems like to every person, the only stuff that is credible is the stuff we use to prove the point we are actively trying to make?
Eye test is no good, we all see different things when we watch.
There is no way to corral any debate on BBI because we agree on nothing about sources or stats. It is just one big circle jerk.
I have questions.
If we have 2 wins or less at the bye, regardless of circumstance, will you want to see another QB play for the rest of season, considering Eli's age and this is the last year of his contract?
If yes, and you had your pick of ANY of the QBs that have been mentioned to be available in trade or through the draft would you want see play for the second half of the season?
1. I dont like any stat relies on formulas and doesnt react to how the specific play plays out.
2. I dont watch analysts. I tend to stay away from ESPN and NFL Network because of a lot of the garbage that they produce. "experts" are those who either failed miserably at their jobs or are trying to get into managment type positions, so they mostly push their narratives.
1. I dont like any stat relies on formulas and doesnt react to how the specific play plays out.
2. I dont watch analysts. I tend to stay away from ESPN and NFL Network because of a lot of the garbage that they produce. "experts" are those who either failed miserably at their jobs or are trying to get into management type positions, so they mostly push their narratives.
So basically your personal football expertise when watching games is how you form your your opinions about football. That explain a lot. TY. Do you watch many games other than the Giants? Any all 22 tape used in forming your opinions? Any experience playing or coaching the game?
I listen to analysts when they include video to back up their claims then I also consider the sample size and think about whether the interview has bias. IE I generally will not listen to someone that has bias against a certain player like Kurt Warner does with Eli. I feel players and analysts do provide some insight, they do get me to consider things that I had not previously thought about as many of them are former players and I have neverr played at the NFL level.
I use ALL the stats available, QBR, Rating, W/L DVOA ect ect ect and apply what I know about the circumstances surrounding those stats. Lastly, I apply the eye test. When I use this process, it often changes the opinion I had before I started. Then I ask others. There are a number of posters here that I find insightful.
I do notice that many, if not most people here, never change their minds about anything. I think people make up their minds about their opinions and then never let anything, even objective evidence get in the way of those opinions. How does one grow or learn anything that way?
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
Reasonable. I think this is actually more than most fans.
How about this: Eli's father and brother should have counseled Â
him to retire by now. With two Super Bowl MVP awards, he had nothing to prove. Now every year he continues to play his body is taking another season of abuse that will catch up with him someday.
(I know. I didn't listen to everyone who told me that running on hard pavement was bad for my hip joints long term, but I still went out there almost every day. Well, I admit my hip joints are not happy campers any more.)
Besides all the collective abuse that his body takes, there's always the chance of that really serious injury.
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
It took you over a decade to get through high school and college?
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
You were in high school and college for over a ten years?
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
You were in high school and college for over a ten years?
Over a decade of playing the position.... you know that can start before junior high, right?
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
You were in high school and college for over a ten years?
Over a decade of playing the position.... you know that can start before junior high, right?
over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
I know some are recently down on Haskins, but he’s a guy that would be a perfect fit to sit for a year and learn behind Eli. I heard Weis on NFL Radio this morning saying that he feels Will Grier is the guy that would be the most ready to play right away due to maturity and experience, but Haskins has the highest upside of all of the QB’s in this draft (outside of Murray). Weis nailed it with his love of Mayfield last year over the other three prospects (Allen, Rosen, and Darnold), so far at least.
But what I do know is 8-24, and 38, Eli s age. Which begs the question:
Do you believe the Giants will win another Super Bowl before Eli is done. If you believe yes, then any desire to keep passing on a quarterback to live in the moment is justified.
If you believe no, which I believe is the Giants position or else they would have signed him to an extension, it s hard to justify kicking the ball down the road.
All the reasons given over the past two seasons to past on quarterbacks, rooted I believe in a desire to keep the clock from beginning to tick on Eli, Miss an important point:
With Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Haskins, Lock, etc. the Giants move on to the new era and can stop chasing past glory, which for 7 years has led to some awful football.
That’s a nice highlight video- where is the part that does proper analysis instead of generic comments and cherry picking?
Of course there are windows of good play- and of course there is a 5 year window of elite play from Eli 2007 playoffs through 2012. But dear lord - this must be the video that Mara walked into dgs office with—— see Dave it’s not his fault. - it’s smart to have a 3 yr plan built around him and pay him 23m a year at this age/level of play- it’s good for the future of the franchise
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
47-65. Yikes, How does anyone dismiss the quarterback’s role in that record.
The WRs run the wrong routes
Poor playcalling
The dog ate my homework...
Count me among those who think Eli can still play.
Put him on last year’s Chargers’ team and it would be Eli that would be lauded and not Rivers, imv.
ZERO MINDS will be changed on this, so fruitless to partake in continual debate
The WRs run the wrong routes
Poor playcalling
The dog ate my homework...
It’s always Eli’s fault.
1. An Eli Manning thread.
2. An Odell Beckham thread.
Same people arguing the same points day after day.
It's actually exhausting just seeing the threads and barely even reading them at all anymore.
This draft cannot come soon enough.
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The Defense can't hold leads
The WRs run the wrong routes
Poor playcalling
The dog ate my homework...
It’s always Eli’s fault.
No dep. But some of us believe he shares in the blame.
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If someone says that Manning has always been a mediocre quarterback who just had two fluke lucky years then perhaps that might apply. But as feeling now that it is time to replace him, how many NFL teams have ever started a 39 year old quarterback who, in his last seven seasons, has a record of 47-65 with one playoff game?
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
47-65. Yikes, How does anyone dismiss the quarterback’s role in that record.
I'll ask this like I have many other threads:
"Are there any posters saying Eli doesn't deserve some blame??"
I'll also point to Philip Rivers, a guy many on BBI called the MVP of last season. He went through a stretch where his team missed the playoffs 7 out of 8 years. Had a 12 loss season and an 11 loss season.
How many people truly believe Rivers was the main reason for that drought? Compare that to how many people think Eli is the main reason (if not the sole reason) for our drought
That's why the topic is crazy. So inconsistent.
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In comment 14381989 Jimmy Googs said:
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The Defense can't hold leads
The WRs run the wrong routes
Poor playcalling
The dog ate my homework...
It’s always Eli’s fault.
No dep. But some of us believe he shares in the blame.
So that means that other people on the offense screwed up? Gee golly, thats been something that has been tried to be said here but is usually countered with "youre an eli lover" "you're an eli apologist" or what ever nonsense was written that I replied too.
1. An Eli Manning thread.
2. An Odell Beckham thread.
Same people arguing the same points day after day.
It's actually exhausting just seeing the threads and barely even reading them at all anymore.
This draft cannot come soon enough.
These threads are an interesting study in human behavior. The same people making the same arguments they have made 1,000 times, yet they still come on and post the same thing over and over.
I wonder what they are expecting to happen in this thread that is different than the last thousand on the same topic?
After a certain point, no one is going to change anyone else's mind.
But everyone just keeps trying.
His yards last year were the 4th highest of his career.
His completion percentage was the highest of his career
His interceptions were the 2nd lowest of his career (not counting year 1)
He also had 3 games with 0 TD’s and 7 games with 1 TD.
If Eli Manning puts up a few more TD’s in those games... We are talking about how Eli (at 37) put up one of the best statistical seasons of his career.
I think the talk of his demise has been highly exaggerated. Let’s not forget also, that NONE of those stats were garbage time stats. Outside the Saints and TENN games, The Giants were in every one of those games last year. Margin of loss was less than 7 points.
There is reason for optimism. The boys played hard for PS. Character issue guys are gone (for the most part) and we SHOULD have an upgraded OL.
I can’t wait for the draft. There is reason for optimism.
After a certain point, no one is going to change anyone else's mind.
But everyone just keeps trying.
That will hopefully be my last Eli post, at least as it pertains to pro and cons. My post above was simple and to the point, but yes, I say the same fucking thing every time. So, people are indeed dug in, both ways
[quote] In comment 14381985 joeinpa said:
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In comment 14381982 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
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If someone says that Manning has always been a mediocre quarterback who just had two fluke lucky years then perhaps that might apply. But as feeling now that it is time to replace him, how many NFL teams have ever started a 39 year old quarterback who, in his last seven seasons, has a record of 47-65 with one playoff game?
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
47-65. Yikes, How does anyone dismiss the quarterback’s role in that record.
I'll ask this like I have many other threads:
"Are there any posters saying Eli doesn't deserve some blame??"
I thought I ve read more than once Eli is the same guy he s always been,
I was responding mostly to dep sarcasm though.
After a certain point, no one is going to change anyone else's mind.
But everyone just keeps trying.
This is a sad commentary. I don't agree, nor do I believe, that no one can make a persuasive argument, nor that anyone can't change their mind
The impenetration of your mind does not reflect all minds
I guess Archie was a shit QB too, because he never had a winning record.
Football is a TEAM sport. People say "Eli has a losing record over the last few years." No THE GIANTS have had the losing record. Eli was just the QB. Sure, he played a part in it. But the other factors mentioned -- dismal protection, no running game, Defenses that couldn't hold 4th quarter leads that Eli often provided -- also played parts. Often bigger parts. Don't forget bad drafting, too.
About the picks -- you know who else threw tons of picks? Favre, Marino, Unitas, Brees -- lots of HOF QBs people rate higher than Eli. Gunslinger QBs take chances.
People don't realize Eli has never been a play-it-safe QB. And if you want that, you're a pussy. You don't get the Manningham SB-winning throw with a play-it-safe QB. You don't get Tyree either, and yes -- there was a TON of luck on that play, but a play-it-safe QB NEVER makes that throw to begin with, so you don't even have the chance for a miracle.
Zac Shomler's Eli video said one VERY INTERESTING thing that I don't know if anyone else here picked up on. He said:
"Eli ALWAYS makes the right decision with the football -- EXCEPT when he (was) throwing to OBJ."
That is, when Eli took chances, and would force the ball into riskier spots, it was ALWAYS to OBJ -- betting on OBJ's brilliance to make a big play. And frankly, if you're gonna take a chance, and OBJ's on your team, why wouldn't you do it that way?
You don't think the coaches KNEW he was doing that? It's clear on the film that that's what he was doing. You don't think his head coaches OK'd that approach?
Now that OBJ is gone, Eli has less reason to take those chances, and will probably be more efficient.
But nothing posted here matters. Guys who think Eli's done aren't going to be reasoned out of it, because you weren't reasoned into it. Fortunately, it ain't your call.
I don't see it that way, but if I needed a second opinion to corroborate what my own eyes tell me, I'd trust these guys who've actually played football, and can break down film; and professional film-room rats like Gettleman a lot more than anyone here. Those folks are all saying he can still play effectively.
I guess you guys who disagree will just have to lump-it until they find the next guy, and pray that guy isn't Kent Graham.
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In comment 14382036 dep026 said:
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In comment 14381989 Jimmy Googs said:
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The Defense can't hold leads
The WRs run the wrong routes
Poor playcalling
The dog ate my homework...
It’s always Eli’s fault.
No dep. But some of us believe he shares in the blame.
So that means that other people on the offense screwed up? Gee golly, thats been something that has been tried to be said here but is usually countered with "youre an eli lover" "you're an eli apologist" or what ever nonsense was written that I replied too.
For the sake of conversation, why don't you tell us how much of the blame you think Eli actually does deserve? And why don't you tell us one or two examples of when you felt like a loss was squarely on Eli? That would probably help show that you do actually have a balanced perspective on it.
Did any of those guys lead the NFL in turnovers for the entirely of their career? Did any of them lead the league in turnovers three separate times during their career?
Gunslingers do take chances, that's true. Eli - partly due to scheme and partly due to his own play - has been more careless with the ball than any of the others that you listed.
For the sake of conversation, why don't you tell us how much of the blame you think Eli actually does deserve? And why don't you tell us one or two examples of when you felt like a loss was squarely on Eli? That would probably help show that you do actually have a balanced perspective on it.
Percentage of blame? Oh for fucks sake. How about we make this simple. Lets talk about the games where Eli didnt help us win.
- 1st Eagles game
- Tennesee
- First Washington game
- You want to throw first Dallas game, be my guest. Ill blame the OL more for that one.
So by my calculations (ill make up a formula like PFF and QBR does because thats the cool thing to do.), ill put the the percentage at 26.7%?
Sounds good skippy?
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Yep.
After a certain point, no one is going to change anyone else's mind.
But everyone just keeps trying.
This is a sad commentary. I don't agree, nor do I believe, that no one can make a persuasive argument, nor that anyone can't change their mind
The impenetration of your mind does not reflect all minds
Who, to your knowledge, has changed his or her mind, one way or the other?
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About the picks -- you know who else threw tons of picks? Favre, Marino, Unitas, Brees -- lots of HOF QBs people rate higher than Eli. Gunslinger QBs take chances.
Did any of those guys lead the NFL in turnovers for the entirely of their career? Did any of them lead the league in turnovers three separate times during their career?
Gunslingers do take chances, that's true. Eli - partly due to scheme and partly due to his own play - has been more careless with the ball than any of the others that you listed.
Favre led the league in INTs 3 times
Ben, Rivers, Unitas, Moon led the league in INTs twice
Joe Namath led the league 4 times.
Those are some quick examples... but I guess they wont be classified as gunslingers and poor play on their part.
Who, to your knowledge, has changed his or her mind, one way or the other?
I have sir
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About the picks -- you know who else threw tons of picks? Favre, Marino, Unitas, Brees -- lots of HOF QBs people rate higher than Eli. Gunslinger QBs take chances.
Did any of those guys lead the NFL in turnovers for the entirely of their career? Did any of them lead the league in turnovers three separate times during their career?
Gunslingers do take chances, that's true. Eli - partly due to scheme and partly due to his own play - has been more careless with the ball than any of the others that you listed.
Are you sure about this??
Eli and Favre both led the league in INT's three times. Those were the only times Eli threw over 20 INT's. Favre did it 6 times.
Unitas only led the league in INT's 2 times, Brees and Marino once.
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For the sake of conversation, why don't you tell us how much of the blame you think Eli actually does deserve? And why don't you tell us one or two examples of when you felt like a loss was squarely on Eli? That would probably help show that you do actually have a balanced perspective on it.
Percentage of blame? Oh for fucks sake. How about we make this simple. Lets talk about the games where Eli didnt help us win.
- 1st Eagles game
- Tennesee
- First Washington game
- You want to throw first Dallas game, be my guest. Ill blame the OL more for that one.
So by my calculations (ill make up a formula like PFF and QBR does because thats the cool thing to do.), ill put the the percentage at 26.7%?
Sounds good skippy?
My point was, you seem to get sensitive about being called an Eli apologist or whatever, but that stems from defending Eli at every turn and at no point putting any of the blame on him for this extended stretch of stench. The request for a percentage of the blame was largely rhetorical - I just was wondering whether you actually think he deserves any blame at all. Even in your reply above, you shifted the question from are there losses for which Eli is responsible to here are some games that he didn't help win.
We just see it differently, and probably will continue to. At least it makes for lively discussion.
Are you sure about this??
Eli and Favre both led the league in INT's three times. Those were the only times Eli threw over 20 INT's. Favre did it 6 times.
Unitas only led the league in INT's 2 times, Brees and Marino once.
I beat you to the point. You're getting old.
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In comment 14382239 Gatorade Dunk said:
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For the sake of conversation, why don't you tell us how much of the blame you think Eli actually does deserve? And why don't you tell us one or two examples of when you felt like a loss was squarely on Eli? That would probably help show that you do actually have a balanced perspective on it.
Percentage of blame? Oh for fucks sake. How about we make this simple. Lets talk about the games where Eli didnt help us win.
- 1st Eagles game
- Tennesee
- First Washington game
- You want to throw first Dallas game, be my guest. Ill blame the OL more for that one.
So by my calculations (ill make up a formula like PFF and QBR does because thats the cool thing to do.), ill put the the percentage at 26.7%?
Sounds good skippy?
My point was, you seem to get sensitive about being called an Eli apologist or whatever, but that stems from defending Eli at every turn and at no point putting any of the blame on him for this extended stretch of stench. The request for a percentage of the blame was largely rhetorical - I just was wondering whether you actually think he deserves any blame at all. Even in your reply above, you shifted the question from are there losses for which Eli is responsible to here are some games that he didn't help win.
We just see it differently, and probably will continue to. At least it makes for lively discussion.
Or maybe its just easier to look at it this way.
After a game we lose, there are 1000 Eli threads on why he cost us the game or how he doesnt have it. If I dare blame someone else or point out their ineffective play - it makes me an Eli-apologist.
Sounds stupid right? Well, there ya go...
Stop downloading porn, and it goes quicker.
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In comment 14382222 David B. said:
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About the picks -- you know who else threw tons of picks? Favre, Marino, Unitas, Brees -- lots of HOF QBs people rate higher than Eli. Gunslinger QBs take chances.
Did any of those guys lead the NFL in turnovers for the entirely of their career? Did any of them lead the league in turnovers three separate times during their career?
Gunslingers do take chances, that's true. Eli - partly due to scheme and partly due to his own play - has been more careless with the ball than any of the others that you listed.
Favre led the league in INTs 3 times
Ben, Rivers, Unitas, Moon led the league in INTs twice
Joe Namath led the league 4 times.
Those are some quick examples... but I guess they wont be classified as gunslingers and poor play on their part.
Ah, you're right about Favre. I should have known that he would have been right there with his style of play, too.
Other than Unitas, the others aren't even in David B's post, so why are they mentioned? Just historically great QBs and Eli's contemporaries who have lead the league in INTs multiple times? Fair point, I guess.
As for Namath, he's probably the most overrated QB in league history, IMO. I feel like even mentioning him in the same breath as Eli is insulting to Eli.
Ah, you're right about Favre. I should have known that he would have been right there with his style of play, too.
Other than Unitas, the others aren't even in David B's post, so why are they mentioned? Just historically great QBs and Eli's contemporaries who have lead the league in INTs multiple times? Fair point, I guess.
As for Namath, he's probably the most overrated QB in league history, IMO. I feel like even mentioning him in the same breath as Eli is insulting to Eli.
I picked QBs who have always been risky QBs who have thrown the ball. While people might not see that with Rivers and Ben - they have been. The differnece is they havent been in the position a lot to be in those situations. Brees up until the last 2-3 years was a big risk taker.
And these are all great QBs. HOF QBs. And the reason is great is that they have made throws that not only a lot of QBs cant make, but arent willing to make. It does lead to more turnovers, I agree.
but if Eli was a safe less-risky QB.... we would have 2 less SBs. Not something I would want just so he could throw less INTs.
So by my calculations (ill make up a formula like PFF and QBR does because thats the cool thing to do.), ill put the the percentage at 26.7%?
Sounds good skippy?
I bet you could come up with some other ways to be just as clear without a demeaning comment
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So by my calculations (ill make up a formula like PFF and QBR does because thats the cool thing to do.), ill put the the percentage at 26.7%?
Sounds good skippy?
I bet you could come up with some other ways to be just as clear without a demeaning comment
He called me a Tim Allen fan before. I didnt think I could go lower...haha
But the skippy part should have been omitted. I agree.
Carolina last year immediately comes to mind but I'm too lazy to look up the rest.
Point being those losses are not on Eli.
2018
Maholmes
Brees
Trubisky
25. Eli
2017
Wentz
Keenum
Brady
22. Eli
2016
Ryan
Brady
Prescott
27. Eli
2015
Palmer
Big Ben
Dalton
16. Eli
2014
romo
Rogers
Brady
14. eli
2013
Peyton
Rivers
Cutler
27. Eli
Too funny
They value a 5 yard rush by a QB more than they do a 10 yard completion. Makes sense doesn’t it?
Wow.
They value a 5 yard rush by a QB more than they do a 10 yard completion. Makes sense doesn’t it?
the ability for a QB to escape the pocket frequently to get 5 yards is very valuable
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Is a made up formula that doesn’t represent the true formula of actual game play.
They value a 5 yard rush by a QB more than they do a 10 yard completion. Makes sense doesn’t it?
the ability for a QB to escape the pocket frequently to get 5 yards is very valuable
Throwing for 10 yards is much more valuable.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
he had a 79 QB in those playoffs which this year would have ranked the 3rd best in the NFL.
so he played amazing in that playoffs and it was reflected in the number? fantastic
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when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
he had a 79 QB in those playoffs which this year would have ranked the 3rd best in the NFL.
so he played amazing in that playoffs and it was reflected in the number? fantastic
Was my question hard to digest? I dont care what his ranking is back then to what it is now. I jut said rank his performances 1-4. Being that you probabl went and looked at those ratings - you will fudge to to support a bias claim, I get it.
How about his game against SF in the 2011 playoffs? Woof, what a dog of a game he had right? I think we won despite his play. I guess the game is viewed as an "outliner", right?
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In comment 14382375 dep026 said:
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when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
he had a 79 QB in those playoffs which this year would have ranked the 3rd best in the NFL.
so he played amazing in that playoffs and it was reflected in the number? fantastic
Was my question hard to digest? I dont care what his ranking is back then to what it is now. I jut said rank his performances 1-4. Being that you probabl went and looked at those ratings - you will fudge to to support a bias claim, I get it.
How about his game against SF in the 2011 playoffs? Woof, what a dog of a game he had right? I think we won despite his play. I guess the game is viewed as an "outliner", right?
dep the data is consistent in pointing out that in that 4 game span-- eli manning was excellent/elite qb.
if u factor in the temperature of the gametime- Green Bay should be higher.... but i mean give me a break--- the metric says he played well in all the games- and he did. it says he played VERY well.
But do the ratings suggest that? Nope. But lets keep referring to them as if they have truth behind them.
I have picked 8 games between 2007 and 2011 now, and his 3 best games of his career were deemed 3 of his worst playoff performances for those 8.
So valid.
in 2011 it says he was very good- and because the completion percentage was poor the SF game isnt as high as you or myself would like--- but over the course of the games you are talking about--- it says he played really well.
you can nitpick--- but the thing paints a good picture of WTF is going on. like anything with you--- if it doesnt spit out the results you want to see... its somehow wrong
dalton? Cutler? Keenum? really?
Are you really going to support those metrics? Come on, you are much better than this.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
There's a bit of a problem with your suggestion here. A four-game sample may be sufficient (I'd argue that it's pretty low for statistical significance, but neither here nor there), but that's not actually what you're asking for here. You're asking for four separate one-game samples, ranked in order. A four-game sample would view those four games in the aggregate, not individually.
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In comment 14381982 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
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If someone says that Manning has always been a mediocre quarterback who just had two fluke lucky years then perhaps that might apply. But as feeling now that it is time to replace him, how many NFL teams have ever started a 39 year old quarterback who, in his last seven seasons, has a record of 47-65 with one playoff game?
And they have the draft choices this year to get the new guy.
47-65. Yikes, How does anyone dismiss the quarterback’s role in that record.
I'll ask this like I have many other threads:
"Are there any posters saying Eli doesn't deserve some blame??"
I'll also point to Philip Rivers, a guy many on BBI called the MVP of last season. He went through a stretch where his team missed the playoffs 7 out of 8 years. Had a 12 loss season and an 11 loss season.
How many people truly believe Rivers was the main reason for that drought? Compare that to how many people think Eli is the main reason (if not the sole reason) for our drought
That's why the topic is crazy. So inconsistent.
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when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
There's a bit of a problem with your suggestion here. A four-game sample may be sufficient (I'd argue that it's pretty low for statistical significance, but neither here nor there), but that's not actually what you're asking for here. You're asking for four separate one-game samples, ranked in order. A four-game sample would view those four games in the aggregate, not individually.
Ok, throw in the 2011 as well to make it 8 games.
And games should seen individually due to the fact is thats how they are graded. If they are going to pass out a grade for a game - why cant we view it versus the other games? I have faults with how games are graded. So I think its more than fair to question how Eli got a 59 QBR in a game where it could be argued it was probably the best game he ever played. Or a 72 in GB? I think if thats the metric that we should be basing how a player plays - maybe its not the best one to use, huh?
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In comment 14382375 dep026 said:
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when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
There's a bit of a problem with your suggestion here. A four-game sample may be sufficient (I'd argue that it's pretty low for statistical significance, but neither here nor there), but that's not actually what you're asking for here. You're asking for four separate one-game samples, ranked in order. A four-game sample would view those four games in the aggregate, not individually.
Ok, throw in the 2011 as well to make it 8 games.
And games should seen individually due to the fact is thats how they are graded. If they are going to pass out a grade for a game - why cant we view it versus the other games? I have faults with how games are graded. So I think its more than fair to question how Eli got a 59 QBR in a game where it could be argued it was probably the best game he ever played. Or a 72 in GB? I think if thats the metric that we should be basing how a player plays - maybe its not the best one to use, huh?
I don't doubt that there are probably inherent flaws in the rating system. I happen to be a big proponent of stats in general (and not just football or even sports, broadly), but I recognize that most statistical analyses that try to isolate the contribution/failure of one single football player have to take some liberties in order to get there, so they're never really airtight.
Baseball, and even basketball, sure, individual stats do tell the story pretty well. Football is a bit tougher because of all the same things we argue about constantly with regard to Eli. How much of it is the fault/credit of other players, scheme, assignment, etc. vs. how much of it is truly representative of one individual player?
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In comment 14382464 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14382375 dep026 said:
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when dealing with QB Rating and QBR. Lets look at a 4 game sample, which should be ample enough since it represents 1/4th of a season.
Do a little test, go back to the 2007-2008 playoffs and rank in what games Eli played 1 through 4. Then come back to me.
There's a bit of a problem with your suggestion here. A four-game sample may be sufficient (I'd argue that it's pretty low for statistical significance, but neither here nor there), but that's not actually what you're asking for here. You're asking for four separate one-game samples, ranked in order. A four-game sample would view those four games in the aggregate, not individually.
Ok, throw in the 2011 as well to make it 8 games.
And games should seen individually due to the fact is thats how they are graded. If they are going to pass out a grade for a game - why cant we view it versus the other games? I have faults with how games are graded. So I think its more than fair to question how Eli got a 59 QBR in a game where it could be argued it was probably the best game he ever played. Or a 72 in GB? I think if thats the metric that we should be basing how a player plays - maybe its not the best one to use, huh?
I don't doubt that there are probably inherent flaws in the rating system. I happen to be a big proponent of stats in general (and not just football or even sports, broadly), but I recognize that most statistical analyses that try to isolate the contribution/failure of one single football player have to take some liberties in order to get there, so they're never really airtight.
Baseball, and even basketball, sure, individual stats do tell the story pretty well. Football is a bit tougher because of all the same things we argue about constantly with regard to Eli. How much of it is the fault/credit of other players, scheme, assignment, etc. vs. how much of it is truly representative of one individual player?
And I dont have a problem people using them once in awhile either. My problem is using it to judge a players value and then comparing players.
I find way too many faults in their grading and the formulas to make fair comparisons on their worth and against other players.
QB Rating
QBR
DVOA
None of those are good?
Are there any analysts that are good? We like them when we agree with the narrative we are trying to push.
It seems like to every person, the only stuff that is credible is the stuff we use to prove the point we are actively trying to make?
Eye test is no good, we all see different things when we watch.
There is no way to corral any debate on BBI because we agree on nothing about sources or stats. It is just one big circle jerk.
I have questions.
If we have 2 wins or less at the bye, regardless of circumstance, will you want to see another QB play for the rest of season, considering Eli's age and this is the last year of his contract?
If yes, and you had your pick of ANY of the QBs that have been mentioned to be available in trade or through the draft would you want see play for the second half of the season?
My answers:
Yes
Josh Rosen
2. I dont watch analysts. I tend to stay away from ESPN and NFL Network because of a lot of the garbage that they produce. "experts" are those who either failed miserably at their jobs or are trying to get into managment type positions, so they mostly push their narratives.
2. I dont watch analysts. I tend to stay away from ESPN and NFL Network because of a lot of the garbage that they produce. "experts" are those who either failed miserably at their jobs or are trying to get into management type positions, so they mostly push their narratives.
I listen to analysts when they include video to back up their claims then I also consider the sample size and think about whether the interview has bias. IE I generally will not listen to someone that has bias against a certain player like Kurt Warner does with Eli. I feel players and analysts do provide some insight, they do get me to consider things that I had not previously thought about as many of them are former players and I have neverr played at the NFL level.
I use ALL the stats available, QBR, Rating, W/L DVOA ect ect ect and apply what I know about the circumstances surrounding those stats. Lastly, I apply the eye test. When I use this process, it often changes the opinion I had before I started. Then I ask others. There are a number of posters here that I find insightful.
I do notice that many, if not most people here, never change their minds about anything. I think people make up their minds about their opinions and then never let anything, even objective evidence get in the way of those opinions. How does one grow or learn anything that way?
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
(I know. I didn't listen to everyone who told me that running on hard pavement was bad for my hip joints long term, but I still went out there almost every day. Well, I admit my hip joints are not happy campers any more.)
Besides all the collective abuse that his body takes, there's always the chance of that really serious injury.
1. An Eli Manning thread.
2. An Odell Beckham thread.
Same people arguing the same points day after day.
It's actually exhausting just seeing the threads and barely even reading them at all anymore.
This draft cannot come soon enough.
There's a third daily occurrence on BBI:
3. Posters whining about topics being discussed
This is a Giants board, and people are talking about the Giants. No one is making you open any thread.
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
It took you over a decade to get through high school and college?
That explains a lot.
Before you go nuts....I'm just busting balls
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
You were in high school and college for over a ten years?
Quote:
how many other games I watch. Its a good deal.
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
You were in high school and college for over a ten years?
Over a decade of playing the position.... you know that can start before junior high, right?
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In comment 14382138 arcarsenal said:
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Yep.
After a certain point, no one is going to change anyone else's mind.
But everyone just keeps trying.
This is a sad commentary. I don't agree, nor do I believe, that no one can make a persuasive argument, nor that anyone can't change their mind
The impenetration of your mind does not reflect all minds
Who, to your knowledge, has changed his or her mind, one way or the other?
Couple of things I used to privately jump through mental hoops to justify; that Manning was pretty blameless and Beckham was misunderstood.
At some point I had to accept either both were the victims of the most unfair set of coincidences or a major part of the problem.
Quote:
In comment 14382689 dep026 said:
Quote:
how many other games I watch. Its a good deal.
And yes I use my eyes for a lot of my information that has been backed with over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
You were in high school and college for over a ten years?
Over a decade of playing the position.... you know that can start before junior high, right?
over a decade of playing the position at the high school and college level.
That's why people are making the joke.