I don't think Barkley can keep going with & gt;350 touches/season. I like Gallman and will be pulling for him to be an excellent back-up.
It's likely we also draft a RB for insurance, especially if we hold onto 12 picks. Just wondering about Paul Perkins. Remember him? He showed some potential early on. Perhaps he will recover to re-calibrate to an upward arc to his game post injury. Wonder how he has been preparing while inactive.
He averaged 22 touches per game.
Elliot averaged about 25 touches per game.
So, 3 fewer than Elliot.
Barkley is your workhorse RB. 22 touches per game sounds about right. You don't draft him at #2 overall to have him watch the games.
GT, I am highly sympathetic to your view of things generally, but you have to admit that this comment is almost intentionally incendiary.
Hmph.
Maybe Perkins comes back strong, maybe not, but I figure the Giants are in good shape with Gallman as the #2 behind Barkley.
I'm prepared for that to be a possible outcome. I wouldn't 'save' him by scaling down workload in any sense, but I'd say I'm less deterministic in that view.
tough to argue with. I think Barkley could potentially be just that special to be an outlier, but the concept is noted. One year at a time as far as I view it.
Gotta love this approach. If Terps was a GM, pretty soon not one player would come to the Giants as an FA, and that would be just fine with Terps.
But eventually he'd get Eli Manning'd ahead of the draft, with players declaring straight out of college they want no part of being drafted by Terp's team.
Terps, this is not meant as a call you out post, but rather, to point out that you have good theoretical insights which don't always work out well when/if actually applied rigorously in practice.
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Signing him to a second contract should not be a consideration, so run him into the ground.
Gotta love this approach. If Terps was a GM, pretty soon not one player would come to the Giants as an FA, and that would be just fine with Terps.
But eventually he'd get Eli Manning'd ahead of the draft, with players declaring straight out of college they want no part of being drafted by Terp's team.
Terps, this is not meant as a call you out post, but rather, to point out that you have good theoretical insights which don't always work out well when/if actually applied rigorously in practice.
Check out the link. Speaks for itself.
Link - ( New Window )
- The Steelers got decent production from Connor on the ground, lost a lot in the air and missed the playoffs without Bell.
- The Falcons weren't able to replace Freeman's production and missed the playoffs.
- The Cowboys winning % without Zeke in the lineup in 38%. With him it is over 60%
- The Cards went from a playoff team to one of the worst teams when David Johnson missed the season.
You can plug and play a lot of RB's and not come away seeing a Tommy Maddox-like performance like you might with a Nathan Peterman. That doesn't mean there's no or little impact.
It doesn't make any financial sense.
He averaged 22 touches per game.
Elliot averaged about 25 touches per game.
So, 3 fewer than Elliot.
Barkley is your workhorse RB. 22 touches per game sounds about right. You don't draft him at #2 overall to have him watch the games.
I agree with this. Barkley is built for 20 touches a game easy. I happen to think they used him perfectly last year. (Except for a memory I have of him sitting on the sideline at the end of a half of a tight game. Don't remember what one.)
Gallman doesn't have "wiggle", but he lead all backs in his senior year in yards after contact. He was absolute money on short yardage and goal line attempts. Good attributes for a solid #2.
Pitt has the benefit of a great OL.
Roethlisberger posted career highs in yardage and TDs, and the Steelers were 6th in the league in scoring. Did you even look anything up to confirm this statement?
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That's my view on him. Take the approach Pittsburgh did with Bell. It's what makes sense.
Pitt has the benefit of a great OL.
I agree. That should tell you how much of a difference running backs actually make.
You can look, Saquon, but don't touch. Now, get out there and run!
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The Steelers got decent production from Connor on the ground, lost a lot in the air and missed the playoffs without Bell.
Roethlisberger posted career highs in yardage and TDs, and the Steelers were 6th in the league in scoring. Did you even look anything up to confirm this statement?
Yes. I did. That Conner had 30 less receptions than Bell.
That's what I'm referring to. Not what totals Ben put up. If anything, it strengthens the point that they looked elsewhere to replace the lost production of the RB.
I am trying to make a larger point. Football players are humans, not widgets. Above I mentioned that your attitude would discourage FAs and even potential draft picks from wanting to play for the Giants - as Eli did with the Chargers. No way to know for sure, but San Diego may well have lost their chance to win SBs because of the player Rivers is vs Eli.
Here's another pat of the human factor: if you run SB into the ground all season long (knowing you will let him walk after 5 years) what happens to his level of play if/when the team reaches the playoffs on his back? By games 17, 18 & 19 you very well might not have the same physical player you had in games 1-8 or even in games 9-16...
You (IMO) need to think your theories through on more than one level (financial, opportunity costs, etc), especially on some human levels.
Just food for thought GT. Frankly I was impressed that you called the eventual departure of Beckham as early as you did.
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The Steelers got decent production from Connor on the ground, lost a lot in the air and missed the playoffs without Bell.
Roethlisberger posted career highs in yardage and TDs, and the Steelers were 6th in the league in scoring. Did you even look anything up to confirm this statement?
I thought it was about winning games. Did something change?
That’s your view on the position, which I get. But they drafted Barkley because they view him as special. You are already writing in his Giants career and I think that’s lousy.
Plenty of all time great RBs has long and productive careers. We drafted him to be one. If he breaks down year 4, then discuss not signing him. But u til then I simply can’t get on board with your line of thinking because it’s proven to be flawed with various players.
It doesn't make any financial sense.
No that isn’t being honest. Historically accurate compared to his peers, but not set in stone. Tomlinson, Martin, etc had very long careers.
And again he isn’t just a RB. A lot of these touches are in open field where he can dictate contact.
Bryce Love probably isn't playing this year. At least for the first 8 games at least as he got hurt late in the year against California tearing his ACL.
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Gallman is a pro ready back but I don’t think he is ever going to be a feature guy, which is fine. His ability to plant his foot and burst combined with his toughness can make him a dangerous player. He became a much better blocker and receiver this season as well. I wish he could hold on to more weight and protect the ball better, but you could do much worse than having him as your number two back.
Maybe Perkins comes back strong, maybe not, but I figure the Giants are in good shape with Gallman as the #2 behind Barkley.
I completely agree with this statement. I think we are all right on the RB front. too many other holes need filling on this roster in the draft.
What else is he? It's not like he was a dynamic receiver in year 1. He was 16th amongst RBs in YPC.
Classic. The stat that's like a lamp post for a blind man, useful for support rather than illumination.
He was 1st in yards from scrimmage, but dynamic? Nahhhh
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And again he isn’t just a RB.
What else is he? It's not like he was a dynamic receiver in year 1. He was 16th amongst RBs in YPC.
It means I can see him being a constant in the passing game where hits can be more dictated and less of an impact.
You know that's not going to happen. Their not going to take all the cannon fodder for passing on the qbs to keep Barkley for 5 years. And you know that.
I am trying to make a larger point. Football players are humans, not widgets. Above I mentioned that your attitude would discourage FAs and even potential draft picks from wanting to play for the Giants - as Eli did with the Chargers. No way to know for sure, but San Diego may well have lost their chance to win SBs because of the player Rivers is vs Eli.
Here's another pat of the human factor: if you run SB into the ground all season long (knowing you will let him walk after 5 years) what happens to his level of play if/when the team reaches the playoffs on his back? By games 17, 18 & 19 you very well might not have the same physical player you had in games 1-8 or even in games 9-16...
You (IMO) need to think your theories through on more than one level (financial, opportunity costs, etc), especially on some human levels.
Just food for thought GT. Frankly I was impressed that you called the eventual departure of Beckham as early as you did.
I've tried to make similar points several times.
In theory, a lot of ideas are interesting - are they realistic to practice? In most cases, probably not.
There is a human element whether we want to acknowledge that or not. And if you treat your players as disposable robots long enough, you'll start to turn your org into a destination players suddenly aren't so interested in stopping at.
Coincidentally, this is sort of the entire reason we even wound up with Eli Manning to begin with.
The Chargers were considered a shitty org that Eli didn't want to play for and Archie didn't want him playing there. So, it was literally not an option for them to draft and keep him. He would have just sat out. Rivers was a nice consolation prize... but Eli has hardware and Rivers still doesn't. Would that be the case if the tables were turned? I don't know - and it doesn't matter.
But the point remains.
If you become a franchise known for running guys into the ground only to then intentionally NOT reward them and let them go run out of gas in another city, players will start to notice that and be wary of how willing they are to put themselves at risk and will then want to start doing things to elongate their own careers - which can often be of detriment to the team they play for.
Barkley is a special player - and the goal should certainly be to maximize his abilities as much as we can. But I don't think the Giants should just say "let's run this guy ragged and then to hell with him after that..."
It's not a great way to handle your personnel. They do notice.
And that doesn't mean you have to be loyal to a fault - I think that's where we're at with Eli now.
But, Barkley has played 1 year. It's way too soon to already plan on letting him walk in a few years. Too many variables. Too much time in between.
This is dead-on.
RB is THE most expendable position in the game. The RB Store is open 24/7, 365. They come off the assembly line like bags of potato chips.
And if I'm the Jerruh I do the same thing with Zeke. Let's hope, however, they don't...but I think the Steven Jones is too smart.
didn't realize he was still on the team? And why?
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Signing him to a second contract should not be a consideration, so run him into the ground.
This is dead-on.
RB is THE most expendable position in the game. The RB Store is open 24/7, 365. They come off the assembly line like bags of potato chips.
And if I'm the Jerruh I do the same thing with Zeke. Let's hope, however, they don't...but I think the Steven Jones is too smart.
RB's of Barkley's caliber do not grow on trees. You know that, but that hurts your argument so you never talk about it. We just got rid of our star WR partly because we have a stud RB.
As for breaking the bank for RB's, only 3 in the league make more than $10million per year, most of the league is at $8 million or less which is what we just extended Shepard for on a yearly basis.
RB contracts are a value, IMO. Simply stating that your shouldn't pay them or that they are a dime a dozen isn't true at all. How long did we fail at RB before drafting Barkley - 7 years?
Whatever you say. I don't agree, and don't care to argue it anymore.
Top 15 Paid RBs for the past 10 years and their rushing and passing stats?
I can whip up a data analysis for you if you'd like. It would be interesting to look at.
RB's of Barkley's caliber do not grow on trees. You know that, but that hurts your argument so you never talk about it. We just got rid of our star WR partly because we have a stud RB.
As for breaking the bank for RB's, only 3 in the league make more than $10million per year, most of the league is at $8 million or less which is what we just extended Shepard for on a yearly basis.
RB contracts are a value, IMO. Simply stating that your shouldn't pay them or that they are a dime a dozen isn't true at all. How long did we fail at RB before drafting Barkley - 7 years?
I agree Barkley is a rare talent. But I think it's very difficult to quantify how many more "win shares" he actual produces over another RB who is 85-90% of SB's talents. I'd rather have/invest dollars in a good to good-plus OL over the great RB. My preference is for the RB to be reliable in picking up first downs, helping to keep the clock moving (particularly in the 4th qtr), and have some presence in the passing game.
Obviously it's a cost-benefit thing for me. And I trust the history where there always seems to be a quality supply of RBs in later rounds AND on other teams' rosters.
2nd contract? hes in the 2nd year of a 5 year deal. Why...why would anyone even mention a second contract now? After year 4 when he is playing on his 1st rd pick extra option 5th year then we can start to talk about his 2nd contract.
I see a lot of flash in the pan RB's in the league and very few constants. I believe we have a constant and I don't mind paying Barkley when the time is right if he's still at the top of his game. But I will wait until we get there, it will be after the new CBA so who knows what happens.
- Go Terps
At what point do you blame the players not producing for our losses and not guys like Barkley who were one of the only reasons we didn't have a 1 or 2 win season?
2nd contract? hes in the 2nd year of a 5 year deal. Why...why would anyone even mention a second contract now? After year 4 when he is playing on his 1st rd pick extra option 5th year then we can start to talk about his 2nd contract.
You do realize the thread is about Perkins not Saquon?
Exactly.
Don't keep the Ferrari in the garage.
If a team is dumb enough to draft a RB second over all, you play him until he is no longer effective.
It's just the nature of the position.
- Go Terps
Cool.
Terps, I'm surprised you would gloss over that considering you were one of the few others to recognize the Giants rotten core and how superstars like Beckham can spoil your team.
When you can combine the player Barkley is with the type of personality he has, you've really got something.
Culture.
I see a lot of flash in the pan RB's in the league and very few constants. I believe we have a constant and I don't mind paying Barkley when the time is right if he's still at the top of his game. But I will wait until we get there, it will be after the new CBA so who knows what happens.
Like Terps said, we milk Barkley for all he is worth until his contract is up. And then we deal with next steps. He wasn't a classic workhorse at PSU, so that does concern me a bit. So I would continue to look for depth in the draft.
I am of the belief that Barkley will no be your normal running back. That's it. Until he isn't this conversation is pointless.
Saquan Barkley's average rush attempts were 16.3 on the year. I'm not sure why everyone is clamoring for 22 touches per game but I think he can handle the load. I would do no more than 20 myself. What's the reason again? Go ahead and run him into the ground because he can be replaced? LMAO!
-Before the bye (exactly half the season) 13.9 rush attempts by Barkley
-After the bye 18.8.
-Before the bye 4.6 Avg per game
-After the bye 5.55 Avg per game
-Before the bye 64.875 yards per game
-After the bye 98.5 yards per game
How did the Giants do in the 2nd half of the season as compared to first half? Could that have something to do with running the ball more in the 2nd half of the season with a premiere RB? I suppose the results would have been the same using Perkins because "good RBs can be found anywhere".
Run Barkley up to 20 times per game and when it's time to do his contract, PAY THAT MAN HIS MONEY!
I honestly think many of you expect greatness at every position but they all have to be on their first contract or for whatever reason be paid paid like JAGs.
Le'Veon Bell - 2nd round
Alvin Kamara - 3rd round
Kareem Hunt - 3rd round
James Conner - 3rd round
Tarik Cohen - 4th round
Derrick Henry - 2nd round
Devonta Freeman - 4th round
Nick Chubb - 2nd round
Joe Mixon - 2nd round
Marlon Mack - 4th round
Aaron Jones - 5th round
Dalvin Cook - 2nd round
Chris Carson - 7th round
David Johnson - 5th round
That's just in the last 3 drafts. Why would you pay any running back when they're that easy to draft?
You can do this exercise for WR, TE, LBer, etc
Most importantly, ours. How many mid round Rbs haven’t done shit since Bradshaw? Still waiting for the answer.
I could see Barkley having a 2,000 yard rushing season and break 100 receptions. I can also see him having a 10 year career. If anything you keep drafting other rb to get the dirty yards after 5 years and extend his career as a receiver.
Saquon Barkley should not be compared to just any running back. You don't draft a RB at #2 overall... unless he's Saquon Barkley. The same can be said for a contract: you don't give a running back to a massive 2nd contract, unless he's Saquon Barkley (and he'll only be 25 years old at the time).
The guy averaged like 5.0 yards per carry behind one of the worst offensive lines in history. The same offensive line that gave up like 60 sacks on Eli. They were atrocious, and yet amazingly we had a pretty good running game. Saquon is a once-in-a-generation talent. He can get the tough short yards, he can break the long TD run at any given time, he can run routes and catch, he can block, and he's a model citizen, teammate, and leader. Someday, when this team is actually decent, he's going to be the difference between us winning and losing a lot of games, he's going to be the light of hope that shines on this team that makes his teammates and fans believe the Giants are never out of a game or season, he's going to be the grit that gets us those few extra millimeters in this game of inches... and that my friends in and of itself is worth the few extra $ of your salary cap regardless of what position he plays.
Either jay in Toronto needs to stop writing in Canadian and start writing Americanese, or folks need to hone their reading comprehension skills... or I'm the idiot here. Because I thought Jay was referring to Paul Perkins as "our forgotten man".
That's just in the last 3 drafts. Why would you pay any running back when they're that easy to draft?
Le'Veon Bell - 2nd round Drafted in 2013 so not in the last 3 drafts. Not even close really. Cross him off of your list.
Alvin Kamara - 3rd round
Kareem Hunt - 3rd round
James Conner - 3rd round
Tarik Cohen - 4th round
Derrick Henry - 2nd round
Devonta Freeman - 4th round Drafted in 2014 so not in the last 3 drafts. Cross him off.
Nick Chubb - 2nd round
Joe Mixon - 2nd round
Marlon Mack - 4th round
Aaron Jones - 5th round
Dalvin Cook - 2nd round
Chris Carson - 7th round
David Johnson - 5th round Drafted in 2015 so not in the last 3 drafts. Cross him off. 3rd Round btw.
Sorry Terps but even though you weren't talking to me at the time, to quote you at 12:37 in this very thread.
So now we are down to 11 RBs on your list. Of those 11 RBs I'd say Kamara, Hunt, Henry, and Chubb are all solid picks that could get a substantial 2nd contract. The rest are just possibles or potentials. However, let's keep those 11.
My question is, why are we just suppose to ignore the other 56 RBs that were drafted after the 1st round (I think that's what you were going for) in the past 3 drafts? According to your list, teams have roughly a 1 in 6 chance of drafting a good to great RB after the 1st round. Those are good odds? That makes them an easy find?
BlueLou'sBack,
presumably after reading the OP - and responded as if Barkley is the object of the comment "our forgotten man".
For the most part I agree with you but it's hardly the 1st time a thread was taken over by a different topic. Not sure if I am one of the people you are referring to but I do think I'm a little guilty of that. For that, my apologies to the OP even though I've done it again just now. :-). I did try to cover both the OPs topic as well as the side discussion on RB worth in my original reply and I will try to do so again here.
To the OP,
I don't think Barkley is getting many more touches than the other premiere RBs in the league. I like Perkins as a 3rd in our current rotation. I wouldn't put much of a value on drafting a RB if at all in 2019. However, if said RB is the highest rated player on the Giants' board when they pick, I'm all for it in the far lower rounds.
Saquon is a once-in-a-generation talent. He can get the tough short yards, he can break the long TD run at any given time, he can run routes and catch, he can block, and he's a model citizen, teammate, and leader. Someday, when this team is actually decent, he's going to be the difference between us winning and losing a lot of games, he's going to be the light of hope that shines on this team that makes his teammates and fans believe the Giants are never out of a game or season, he's going to be the grit that gets us those few extra millimeters in this game of inches... and that my friends in and of itself is worth the few extra $ of your salary cap regardless of what position he plays.
"Someday when this team is decent" is the problem. Currently we're at least 2 seasons away from being decent. If we don't draft our QB this year, it will be 3 seasons away. That's based on Gettleman's ramblings regarding the KC model. We're not winning anything while Eli is starting and typically a rookie QB doesn't excel in his first year as a starter.
At that point, with Saqoun having played 3-4 seasons, will he still be the same guy? I think he'll still be good - probably. Will he be what we saw last season - questionable. 3-4 years of trying to carry the team and logging so many touches will have at least some negative impact. Thats why I'm a firm believer in getting the QB in place and then building around him.
Either jay in Toronto needs to stop writing in Canadian and start writing Americanese, or folks need to hone their reading comprehension skills... or I'm the idiot here. Because I thought Jay was referring to Paul Perkins as "our forgotten man".
Thanks for the observation. I learned my english in the Bronx. Maybe that's the problem? LOL
Looks like there is an appetite for discussing Barkley durability and disposability. That's OK.
When you throw in his receptions, that could be a lot of wear-and tear. One school seems to think, go for it and then discard him like a used tissue. For those who would like to see him stay around and be a Giant for his next contract, I was just wondering if Perkins could be in the picture to offer so good relief.
It doesn't make any financial sense.
When the day comes, then is time to evaluate Barkley's health and performance. You look at his production and determine if he's worth a big contract or you try your best to replace him.
Most RBs decline when they hit 30.
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Because I thought Jay was referring to Paul Perkins as "our forgotten man".
Thanks for the observation. I learned my english in the Bronx. Maybe that's the problem?
Actually that explains everything. I was born in Bronx Hospital and grew up near 170th St and the Grand Concourse! So I understood you perfectly!