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Is it really going to be that hard to turn things around?

Klaatu : 4/13/2019 7:44 am
I'm going to put on my Big-Blue-colored glasses and say no, I don't think it will be. Naturally, a lot of things have to break right, but who's to say they won't? As woeful as the Giants were last year, on both sides of the ball, I think the chances are that they can dramatically, and quickly, become one of the better teams in the league if they make the right moves heading into the 2019 season. As a famous man once said, "Believe it and it will happen." Well, I choose to believe.

First things first: The newbies. I love the acquisition of Jabrill Peppers. He's an ascending player who should thrive in Bettcher's defense, and even though Antoine Bethea is in the twilight of his career, he's still a big step-up in talent for the Giants at FS, and he's familiar with Bettcher's system. Bethea is a savvy veteran who can still get it done.

Markus Golden is another player who had great success playing for Bettcher before getting derailed by a torn ACL. Now, two years removed from that injury and on a one-year "prove it" deal, he has a...ummm..."golden" opportunity (pun intended) to show that he's fully recovered and can still be a pass-rushing force to be reckoned with for a team that needs all of the help it can get in that department.

What's not to love about Kevin Zeitler? Throughout his career he's been one of the best pass-blocking Guards in the league (and his run-blocking hasn't been too shabby, either). He won't solve all of the Giants' offensive line woes all by himself, but he's a huge step in the right direction for a unit that desperately needed a guy with his talent.

Golden Tate? I'll let PFF speak for me:
Quote:
Tate, 30 years old, is not Odell Beckham Jr., but he has historically been one of the leagueís most efficient wide receivers. In fact, by two metrics, heís arguably been the NFLís best wide receiver:

In each of the past eight seasons, among all wide receivers with at least 50 targets, Tate has ranked top-four in missed tackles forced per reception.
In five of the past six seasons, among all wide receivers with at least 50 targets, Tate has ranked top-four in yards after contact per reception.


Tate is no "savior," but the Giants are not asking him to be one. They're asking to be efficient, reliable and productive, and that's what he's been for the past ten years. I have no doubt that that's what he'll be for the Giants.

This is getting much longer than I anticipated, so, maybe I'll save the second and third-year guys for another post. Suffice it to say that they'll all have their opportunities. It will be up to them to make the most of them. Ditto for the draft (and the QB situation). I'll save my thoughts for another post or two, or three.

Bottom Line: I don't think things are as bleak as some folks make them out to be. I think this team is poised to shock their doubters and silence their critics.

We'll see if believing can really make it happen again.
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RE: think beyond next year  
Klaatu : 4/13/2019 10:59 am : link
In comment 14384837 bluepepper said:
Quote:
even if we go 9-7 or 10-6 - does that mean we've turned things around?

Eli is 38. Even if he has a good year can he do it again in 2020? If not who's the QB?

Bethea is 35 and likely to retire or hit a wall

Golden is a big question mark. But if he does have a big year he will test the market so no guarantee he will be a Giant in 2020.

Tate is 31 and one team dumped him and another showed no interest in re-signing him. He may already be on the downside but if not how many years does he have left?

I just don't see a ton of progress here. Now if we add a stud edge or DL at 6 and get a franchise QB at 17 then it's a whole new ballgame especially with an improved cap situation but at this point we don't know who they're going to draft much less how good they will be.



You draft with an eye towards the future beyond just next year. You draft guys who you hope can replace your aging veterans. And you've accumulated enough free agent cash to keep the guys you want and also bring in some veteran talent.
RE: Itís been 7 years  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 4/13/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14384682 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Of bad football. So apparently it is hard.

Donít expect good football until there is a change at quarterback.


...  
christian : 4/13/2019 11:05 am : link
This has been an extraordinary good offseason.

The Giants are a younger, much more financially sound team. With Shepard signed, the Giants have basically no significant UFA going into 2020.

They have a 4 premium draft picks, and the money to be players in UFA next year.

This is the best shape the Giants have been in a decade.

There are a few moves a disagree with, namely Solder and Tate, but by and large I love the direction of the roster.
RE: think beyond next year  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 4/13/2019 11:06 am : link
In comment 14384837 bluepepper said:
Quote:

Tate is 31 and one team dumped him and another showed no interest in re-signing him. He may already be on the downside but if not how many years does he have left?



Ah, the old "if he was a free agent he must suck" argument. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with that nonsense. Players are let go for a variety of reasons.
RE: ...  
Klaatu : 4/13/2019 11:09 am : link
In comment 14384861 christian said:
Quote:
This has been an extraordinary good offseason.

The Giants are a younger, much more financially sound team. With Shepard signed, the Giants have basically no significant UFA going into 2020.

They have a 4 premium draft picks, and the money to be players in UFA next year.

This is the best shape the Giants have been in a decade.

There are a few moves a disagree with, namely Solder and Tate, but by and large I love the direction of the roster.


That's all I'm saying. There's reason for hope. To me, a lot more reason for hope than despair. As I said in my OP, a lot of things have to break right, and no doubt the Giants still have a lot of questions to answer, especially at QB, but I think they're going to be a hell of a lot better than most folks think they'll be.
Seeing the forest through the trees  
LG in NYC : 4/13/2019 11:09 am : link
you can debate all the individual players, positions, FA and draft moves you want... but "turning it around" in any meaningful sense means having the right people in leadership and the jury is really out on that.
When we have a more talented and deeper roster...  
bw in dc : 4/13/2019 11:20 am : link
than Dallas and Philly, then letís talk.

We have a dinosaur at QB. They have two studs in their mid-20s. This isnít difficult math.

Right now, we are third best in our own division...at best.

RE: When we have a more talented and deeper roster...  
Klaatu : 4/13/2019 11:25 am : link
In comment 14384878 bw in dc said:
Quote:
than Dallas and Philly, then letís talk.

We have a dinosaur at QB. They have two studs in their mid-20s. This isnít difficult math.

Right now, we are third best in our own division...at best.


"Right now" isn't the issue.
...  
christian : 4/13/2019 11:55 am : link
If the Giants come out of this draft with help on the lines, WR, and most importantly a skillsy QB, this team is looking good for 2020.

I'm not going to be revisionist -- I think last year was a total failure. I thought it then and know it now. But that's done, and Gettleman got out of most of the bad decisions.

I will say this -- if the Giants in successive years have the no. 2 then no. 6 and no. 17 overall picks, and go into 2020 without a skillsy QB, that's alarming.
RE: Itís been 7 years  
djm : 4/13/2019 11:57 am : link
In comment 14384682 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Of bad football. So apparently it is hard.

Donít expect good football until there is a change at quarterback.


Wow.
Its all the qbís fault  
djm : 4/13/2019 11:59 am : link
Never mind the terrible defense and OL the last 7 years. And these are slam dunk facts. But never mind those facts...

Iíll never be able to forgive giants fans for the ridiculousness that occurred during most of Eliís career here. I thought Simms was over scrutinized and that fans would learn. The old timers may have....
Yes  
HomerJones45 : 4/13/2019 12:05 pm : link
History repeats itself. You have a ham and egger as a head coach. Nice guy, no one's pick for a dynamic head coach, and no record of success anywhere as a HC. Why should anyone listen to him? You've got a ham-fisted owner who is still meddling in player personnel matters and a GM hired to do his bidding. You've got fans slobbering over accomplishments by bums in meaningless end of year games and applauding over the hill vets who are here for a paycheck. These are the same conditions that existed in the 70's.

RE: Yes  
Klaatu : 4/13/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14384911 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
History repeats itself. You have a ham and egger as a head coach. Nice guy, no one's pick for a dynamic head coach, and no record of success anywhere as a HC. Why should anyone listen to him? You've got a ham-fisted owner who is still meddling in player personnel matters and a GM hired to do his bidding. You've got fans slobbering over accomplishments by bums in meaningless end of year games and applauding over the hill vets who are here for a paycheck. These are the same conditions that existed in the 70's.


Don't ever change. You make life much more enjoyable just the way you are.
be that hard to turn things around?  
Torrag : 4/13/2019 12:18 pm : link
No, all it takes is acquiring better players. We're on the path with DG so enjoy the ride. Realistically it's going to be 2020 when we're a legit threat to make a playoff run but with the easy schedule we could have some fun this season.
....  
Toth029 : 4/13/2019 12:19 pm : link
Prescott a stud. Oh my.
If they use their first three picks  
UberAlias : 4/13/2019 12:33 pm : link
you would hope they come out with 3 starters on D or O-Line. That would go a long way to improving things if they selected well.

Turn things around, to respectability, yes. Thatís counting on Eli playing well and having enough around him. But in terms of sustained success, the key piece is the QB, obviously.
RE: ...  
FrankieR : 4/13/2019 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14384785 christian said:
Quote:
Hard is how you define it. The Giants are ~1.5 seasons in to this regime.

With 4 top 70 draft picks, and spending over 100M dollars the Giants netted 6-7 good players last time around.

Barkley, Hernandez, Hill, Carter, Solder, Ogltree.

So far the Gianys have added three guys who project without any qualifiers to be good Zeitler, Tate, and Peppers.

I expect them to add 4 good, right away players in the draft, but one might be a QB who sits. Say that nets RT, DE, and WR.

Then there is a bunch of guys penciled in that you have to genuinely hope you luck out on -- Beal, Golden, Halapio, Martin, Coleman, Mcintosh, Manning.


I think you nailed it with your last bit. We have been SO unlucky over the years be it with FAs or draft picks panning out, we may be due for some luck. These players turning out to be pluses probably accelerates the process. But to what end? Are we just looking at the playoffs, or actually making noise in them?

For that reason, I think we need to grab at least TWO playmakers on defense. Whether its Allen and D. Lawrence in round 1 or if its Q Will and Burns or Oliver and Bush. We need to make our defense really tough again. We have some players there and some good youth. We need that scary Blue defense again where our line gets push and some speedy 2nd level players can run around.
RE: Its all the qbís fault  
christian : 4/13/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14384905 djm said:
Quote:
Never mind the terrible defense and OL the last 7 years. And these are slam dunk facts. But never mind those facts...

Iíll never be able to forgive giants fans for the ridiculousness that occurred during most of Eliís career here. I thought Simms was over scrutinized and that fans would learn. The old timers may have....


No one ever say this, and yet you bombard every thread with this. Manning isn't the single factor the Giants have sucked.

The Giants have been plenty bad on offense and defense in equal parts or the last many years.
I think the Giants are a playoff team in Ď19  
WillVAB : 4/13/2019 1:47 pm : link
If they have a good draft, and by good draft I mean fix the OL and pass rush.

This is very doable given the current state of the roster and the caliber of players who project at 6, 17, and 37 ó and DG would still have 9 picks to get lucky and hit on other players.

A quality RT will solidify the OL and allow Barkley and the offense to flourish.

2 pass rushers, with one being of the ER variety, will solidify the front 7 and finally get the defense off the field when they need a stop.

Very excited for this draft. If it breaks the Giants way thereís going to be a lot of people eating crow in the media and on this site.
RE: RE: Its all the qbís fault  
djm : 4/13/2019 1:52 pm : link
In comment 14384961 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14384905 djm said:


Quote:


Never mind the terrible defense and OL the last 7 years. And these are slam dunk facts. But never mind those facts...

Iíll never be able to forgive giants fans for the ridiculousness that occurred during most of Eliís career here. I thought Simms was over scrutinized and that fans would learn. The old timers may have....



No one ever say this, and yet you bombard every thread with this. Manning isn't the single factor the Giants have sucked.

The Giants have been plenty bad on offense and defense in equal parts or the last many years.


No one ever says that Eli is the most important thing wrong with the giants ?? Are you kidding me? Thatís all Iíve heard and seen the last year or two.

Iíll stop bombarding when every single nyg discussion goes back to Eli and the giants failures in addressing the qb position. Itís my duty. Sorry.
You know what tho....  
djm : 4/13/2019 1:58 pm : link
I probably have been a bit assholish the last year or so. Maybe longer. Iíll acknowledge that. I read the same things over and over that I disagree with and sometimes I am too quick to the draw with the attacks or venom. Iím no smarter than the next fan, thatís not true yes I am, but that doesnít give me the right to kill other posters or bash their opinions. I have to just accept it.

But by and large the Eli narrative is overstated total horse crap.

Changing gears back to the OP  
djm : 4/13/2019 2:02 pm : link
Iím pumped for this draft. I do want a young qb. But I really really really want 3 stud top of the line starters that can be had with our first 3 picks. I think it was dep who said it a week or so back that he didnít really care which direction the giants took in this draft. If they traded up for a qb, stood pat and took a qb or stood pat and took everything but the qb, Iíd be fine with it. I think trading up for Murray would be a bold stroke of geniuse but zona is taking him.

I drool at the prospects of taking two front seven defenders with those first two picks. Our D would finally be infused with NYG type phenom, young talent. Itís long overdue.
One thing Iíve learned about the nfl  
djm : 4/13/2019 2:10 pm : link
Change is never that far away. The minute you think your team is guaranteed to be great for the foreseeable future shit goes south and the minute you write off a team as bad they go and shock the world.

The giants need about 5-6 legit starters and they need some holdovers from last year to ascend and mature. They also need their great players to continue being great. Can this happen? Of course it can. The colts were supposed to be 2 years away this time last year and what happened? They adddd 2-3 studs via the draft and Luck returned to form. Now they are entrenched as a good stable force once again.

The giants donít even need super stars. Maybe not even stars. They just need professionals to sure up those sore spots. I think DG is the right man to find those guys. He found many more of those than people seem to think and had a much better 2018 than credited for around here. Anytime you can hit on 4 draft picks and then add 1-2-3 solid nfl vets like solder and Ogletree along with some of those under the radar types, youíve had a great year. Letís hope he has another one.
djm...  
bw in dc : 4/13/2019 2:13 pm : link
You know whatís going to happen - Hockenson at # 6, Metcalf at #17... ; )
RE: djm...  
djm : 4/13/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14385004 bw in dc said:
Quote:
You know whatís going to happen - Hockenson at # 6, Metcalf at #17... ; )


I donít think I could handle that! Hock maybe yes, but this draft is begging the giants to address the D. They have to. Itís lined up perfectly.

Hock would help the OL.
And Iíll add this to my earlier post  
djm : 4/13/2019 2:19 pm : link
Eli canít have another slow start like 2018. Ok fine, new system, raw brutally bad OL... tough schedule... no more excuses. We need Eli and this offense to hit ground running in 2019. I will kill Eli when itís warranted. If heís failing to lead this team to wins and there are wins to be bad? Release the hounds.
Giants need to bolster the DL and OL in this draft to be a competitive  
Rick in Dallas : 4/13/2019 2:47 pm : link
Team in NFC. They need a RT and C on OL and ER and DT on DL. They need to add SPEED to linebacker position and add depth in secondary. Might add talent at TE and WR position also. They have a lot yet to do to become competitive in the NFC. Thatís not even discussing the 800 lb Gorilla in the room the QB position.
Donít get me wrong I bleed Giant Blue but we got work to do!!!!
RE: I've lived through the highs  
Giants_Rock : 4/14/2019 11:22 am : link
In comment 14384730 KeoweeFan said:
Quote:
...and the lows. I'm about as avid a fan as you can get.
But I follow the Giants for entertainment; my desire is that they are competitive every game.

Championships are exhilarating, but the main thing for me is to root for a team who has a good chance to win every week.

And if they don't; "there's always next week."


Interesting comment. It makes me wonder which of the following most fans would prefer if they only had the following two options:
1) over a 10 year span - win one super bowl but have a losing record the other 9 years.
2) over a 10 year span - have a winning record every year but never win a super bowl.
Personally I'd prefer option 1 but I can understand your "good chance to win every week" desire.
RE: RE: I've lived through the highs  
Klaatu : 4/14/2019 11:29 am : link
In comment 14385840 Giants_Rock said:
Quote:
In comment 14384730 KeoweeFan said:


Quote:


...and the lows. I'm about as avid a fan as you can get.
But I follow the Giants for entertainment; my desire is that they are competitive every game.

Championships are exhilarating, but the main thing for me is to root for a team who has a good chance to win every week.

And if they don't; "there's always next week."



Interesting comment. It makes me wonder which of the following most fans would prefer if they only had the following two options:
1) over a 10 year span - win one super bowl but have a losing record the other 9 years.
2) over a 10 year span - have a winning record every year but never win a super bowl.
Personally I'd prefer option 1 but I can understand your "good chance to win every week" desire.


I'll take Option 1. I'd rather see another trophy in the case instead of just playing Sisyphus for ten tears.
What does turnaround mean?  
giantstock : 4/14/2019 1:17 pm : link
That Gmen go 7-9 this year and because we got younger we're looking up as one the better teams in the future? Then 8-8 next year? Then 10-6 the year after? Is that what the OP means?
--

I doubt it--

You know the other teams just didn't stand still either? ANd there will be injuries. Not just to the other teams. So for a team lacking depth how will GMEN overcome that?

Here si what SY said -- "The more you look at this depth chart, the harder it hits you that this team has holes everywhere."

Further, other than RB -- what other positions at this moment can we say the Giants are "strong?"

So all the moves that teams like the SKins, Cowboys and Phlly made were nothing but window-dressing yet all the moves and the draft that the Giants make we know will be good? Even the other teams drafts won't help them much either?

I respect the OP he's a good poster - and have agreed with him and disagreed wiht him both on many occasions but his thread here is nothing mroe than a Big Blue Cheerleading Thread."

FOr example something as simple as David Te -- David Te not some anonymous poster-- being right about Eli -- then with all the other issues the Giants have it's going to be "hard" for several years. ANd ofc if the Giants take a QB in rd 1 that's one less player that will help this year which it seems the OP is counting on as much help for this year.

Sure it could turn around. The Amateur USA Hockey Team beta Russia. In sports anything is possible. But let's be honest-- right now haven't we shown ourselves to be the "Cleveland Browns" in how the team has been run? So this year it's all going to be different?
Okay-- hope so . . .
Postions  
giantstock : 4/14/2019 1:19 pm : link
WHat I mean by positions -- is

DL, LB, CB, Safety, OL, TE, QB and WR. Not individual players.
giantstock  
Klaatu : 4/14/2019 1:31 pm : link
Of course it's a "Big Blue Cheerleading thread." As I said in my first line, "I'm going to put on my Big-Blue-colored glasses..." I just get tired of all of the negativity on this board, and judging by some of the replies, I'm not alone in that.

Now, what does a "turnaround" mean? It means turning a perennial loser into a winner. It means putting a competitive team on the field every Sunday. Honestly, I don't think the Giants are too far removed from doing that.

Also, as a I wrote in that first paragraph, a lot of things have to break right for the Giants. First and foremost, they have to stay healthy. I don't think anything determines success or failure in the NFL more than that. After that, new acquisitions - draftees and free agents - have to mesh relatively quickly, and second and third year players have to step up their games.

Finally, just because I'm wearing those glasses doesn't mean I can't see beyond them. I can be as realistic as the next guy. I just choose to stay positive, believing and hoping it happens.
RE: giantstock  
Giants_Rock : 4/14/2019 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14385969 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Of course it's a "Big Blue Cheerleading thread." As I said in my first line, "I'm going to put on my Big-Blue-colored glasses..." I just get tired of all of the negativity on this board, and judging by some of the replies, I'm not alone in that.

Now, what does a "turnaround" mean? It means turning a perennial loser into a winner. It means putting a competitive team on the field every Sunday. Honestly, I don't think the Giants are too far removed from doing that.

Also, as a I wrote in that first paragraph, a lot of things have to break right for the Giants. First and foremost, they have to stay healthy. I don't think anything determines success or failure in the NFL more than that. After that, new acquisitions - draftees and free agents - have to mesh relatively quickly, and second and third year players have to step up their games.

Finally, just because I'm wearing those glasses doesn't mean I can't see beyond them. I can be as realistic as the next guy. I just choose to stay positive, believing and hoping it happens.


I can't speak for anyone else but my negativity stems from the fact that I disagree with the Gettleman/Gruden philosophy. Getting rid of good and very good players for more draft picks is more of an ego thing than sound team building IMO. They want their guys. What the Rams did to turn thing around was the opposite. They traded away a boat load of picks to move from #15 to #1 and get Goff in 2016. The immediate result was a 4-12 season but when Mcvay took over as head coach in 2017 he didn't tear things apart so he could have all 'his guys' or to get more picks. Instead they traded there #2 for Sammy Watkins and used the money they had by having a young team to go out and get free agents to patch up the weak spots.
Rams 2016-2017 turnover:
Lost: Brian Quick, Lance Kendricks, Greg Robinson, Tim Barnes, William Hayes, Nic Grigsby, E.J. Gaines, Coty Sensabaug,T.J. McDonald
Gained:
Sammy Watkins (23 years old) - traded 2nd round pick
Robert Wood - free agent
Whitworth - free agent
John Sullavan -free agent
Conner Barwin cut by eagles
kayvon webster -free agent
gerald everett - 2nd round pick
cooper kupp - 3rd round pick
john johnson -3rd round pick

You won't see any house hold names in the list of players they let go.

We know the Rams approach worked. Can the Gettleman/Gruden approach work as well? Maybe, but I'm not optimistic. I guess we'll know in a couple years.

Giants_Rock  
Klaatu : 4/14/2019 2:41 pm : link
The Giants did not have a lot of free agent money to spend this year, hence they only signed Tate and Golden (along with re-signing several of their own, lesser players). They did have a number of players who were worth trading for draft capital and/or players. OBJ for Peppers and the picks, Vernon for Zeitler, Snacks, Apple, and so forth.

Next year the Giants will be flush with free agent cash. I expect to see quite a spending spree then, which doesn't really bother me (sorry, Game of Terps), as long is the money is spent wisely, which of course remains to be seen.
RE: Giants_Rock  
giantstock : 4/14/2019 3:08 pm : link
In comment 14386090 Klaatu said:
Quote:
The Giants did not have a lot of free agent money to spend this year, hence they only signed Tate and Golden (along with re-signing several of their own, lesser players). They did have a number of players who were worth trading for draft capital and/or players. OBJ for Peppers and the picks, Vernon for Zeitler, Snacks, Apple, and so forth.

Next year the Giants will be flush with free agent cash. I expect to see quite a spending spree then, which doesn't really bother me (sorry, Game of Terps), as long is the money is spent wisely, which of course remains to be seen.


I gotcha. I sort of asked "what is turn around?' I think they can turn around just as you say when you speak of FA cash. I think if DG cna nail severla picks htis year and next year along wiht get Free Agents you will eventually see soemthign positive. I just think this year everyhting needs to be soooo perfect.

But as you say about osme on here they are veyr optimsitic with DG's performance/ thinkt he team is playoff cailber. I would love ot eat crow. Much rtaher be jumping up and down watching our team iwn on Sunday's than anything else.

Im exicted abotu Barkley. I was exicted intially that DG wanted to emphasize "the trenches." But what I see he has done and how he talks of the game since that point and who hehired as coahc then whow as hired as DC -- I just dont like it all.

For example I'v said I don't like Gary at the 6th pick and I don't like Jones for the 17th. SOme on here will say "let's wait and see how they perform before criticizing Dg." They'll always say that for any pick and just keep "hoping for the best." But that's how they look at things. What if some of us are different and don't like being juts a "Monday Morning Qb" like they are?

It's so hard being positive when they've been as rotten for so long then if you think the Owner, GM and the coaching staff are subpar and hearing picks that you don't agree with are a lot to do with "philosophy" of which you don't agree with the "philosophy." It's then hard to accept in a positive way what they're doing.
giantstock, fair enough.  
Klaatu : 4/14/2019 3:32 pm : link
I don't know how old you are or when you started following the Giants, but I started following them in 1972, when I was twelve. It was ten years before they had a winning record (and then it was a mere 9-7), then about three more years of futility before they finally achieved respectability and then became champions. So, maybe I'm just a little more patient, having lived through the dark times of the '70's, not to mention the subsequent seventeen-year drought between championships.

In all that time I haven't agreed with every move the Giants have made. Hell, it's no secret I did not want them to make the trade for Eli! I wanted them to draft Sean Taylor at #4 and then take Matt Schaub in the 2nd Round! Yes...Matt Schaub.

Anyway...yeah, they do have to have pretty much everything go right for them this year for them to contend, but stranger things have happened. And after the last seven years, I figure they're due for some good luck.
RE: giantstock, fair enough.  
giantstock : 4/14/2019 4:28 pm : link
In comment 14386166 Klaatu said:
Quote:
I don't know how old you are or when you started following the Giants, but I started following them in 1972, when I was twelve. It was ten years before they had a winning record (and then it was a mere 9-7), then about three more years of futility before they finally achieved respectability and then became champions. So, maybe I'm just a little more patient, having lived through the dark times of the '70's, not to mention the subsequent seventeen-year drought between championships.

In all that time I haven't agreed with every move the Giants have made. Hell, it's no secret I did not want them to make the trade for Eli! I wanted them to draft Sean Taylor at #4 and then take Matt Schaub in the 2nd Round! Yes...Matt Schaub.

Anyway...yeah, they do have to have pretty much everything go right for them this year for them to contend, but stranger things have happened. And after the last seven years, I figure they're due for some good luck.


I was around the same time. I can still remember the years that followed after they traded Tarkenton that I'd see him in the SUper Bowl and wondering as a kid why we got rid of him.

I have to say-- I see the Giants with a good draft having potential a good future but it's 2020 imo we see a jump to being respectable while in 2021 potentially a force. But what if you don;t believe in ownership, the GM, the HC or the DC?

FOr example I prefer a 4-3 unless you got a super blitzing OLB. SO I read for example SY talking about how great Oliver can be in the right fit yet I read we might take a lesser player in Gary "because he fits." We move tomlinson to NT but imo he is clearly a better 4-3 guy but we force a fit on a fine 4-3 DT moving him to NT.

I'm not high on Greedy Williams - it doesn't seem David Te or SY is much either but instead he might be our 1st CB taken? WHy -- because he "fits" Bethcher's system?

You see what's happening here? High quality 1st rd/2nd rd picks (Tomlisnon) we avoid the strengths of the player just to fit "Betchers 3-4 style." But I don't like the 3-4 instead of the 4-3!

As for back in the day one of my fav players was Ron Johnson. I do like the thouhgt of running backs being a force too. That's why as much as i wanted a QB last year I love the potential of SB. I want him "protected" so his career as great as Barry Sanders was-- his teams (SB) don';t under-perform like Barry Sanders teams (considering how great BS was). I don;t want him stuck with "a decent OLINe" and then hope and pray he breaks one vsthe tough teams. I want him with a strong OLINE and eventually expect that he will break one and be a force even vs the best of teams. (OFC you can';t break all the time but you get the point).

So I am excited of what might be. I loved how Rob Carpenter's imnpact in 1981 helped transform the Giants. I can see a RB have that affect. I want to see Barkley having a chance but giving him "just" a "decent OLINE" and a "decent QB" -- he'll still be great but the real good teams will shut him down. Over-and-over they'll stack the box and force the qb to beat them. In that case you better have a super defense.

Last point 1986 was my favorite team ever. Carl Banks was drafted in 1984 and the GMEN already had Taylor, Carsons and Reasons as LB's. They built up a position to a super strength. Id like to see GMEN try that whether it be offense or defense and not settle for "daniel Jones at 17" because of philosophy of being content with "decent." .
RE: RE: Yes  
HomerJones45 : 4/14/2019 4:42 pm : link
In comment 14384924 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14384911 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


History repeats itself. You have a ham and egger as a head coach. Nice guy, no one's pick for a dynamic head coach, and no record of success anywhere as a HC. Why should anyone listen to him? You've got a ham-fisted owner who is still meddling in player personnel matters and a GM hired to do his bidding. You've got fans slobbering over accomplishments by bums in meaningless end of year games and applauding over the hill vets who are here for a paycheck. These are the same conditions that existed in the 70's.




Don't ever change. You make life much more enjoyable just the way you are.
Thanks ever so much. I do try and do my best.
3-4, 4-3, doesn't really matter to me. Good defense is good defense.  
Klaatu : 4/14/2019 4:50 pm : link
Besides, I think it was JonC who pointed out that last year the Giants ran a 4-3 more often than a 3-4, although whether that was by design or out of necessity I couldn't tell you.

As for the ownership/staff...isn't there a line in the serenity prayer about accepting the things you can't change? I've told the story before about calling in to WFAN and referring to George Steinbrenner as "Stein-Hitler." Absolutely hated the guy - must have been late '80's, early '90's. Fast forward a few years, I ended up loving the guy.

I didn't much like Tom Coughlin, either, when the Giants hired him. Thought he was too much of a hard-ass. Of course, I ended up loving him, too. Go figure.
RE: RE: RE: Yes  
Klaatu : 4/14/2019 4:55 pm : link
In comment 14386252 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
History repeats itself. You have a ham and egger as a head coach. Nice guy, no one's pick for a dynamic head coach, and no record of success anywhere as a HC. Why should anyone listen to him? You've got a ham-fisted owner who is still meddling in player personnel matters and a GM hired to do his bidding. You've got fans slobbering over accomplishments by bums in meaningless end of year games and applauding over the hill vets who are here for a paycheck. These are the same conditions that existed in the 70's.




Don't ever change. You make life much more enjoyable just the way you are.

Thanks ever so much. I do try and do my best.


I have a theory about that. I think that when you were a teenager, Wellington Mara hired you to mow his lawn, but, out of sheer carelessness you ran over Ann's prize roses. Naturally, Wellington fired you, and as he was yelling at you to get off his lawn, you vowed eternal hatred of him, his family, and his football team.
RE: 3-4, 4-3, doesn't really matter to me. Good defense is good defense.  
giantstock : 4/14/2019 5:09 pm : link
In comment 14386264 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Besides, I think it was JonC who pointed out that last year the Giants ran a 4-3 more often than a 3-4, although whether that was by design or out of necessity I couldn't tell you.

As for the ownership/staff...isn't there a line in the serenity prayer about accepting the things you can't change? I've told the story before about calling in to WFAN and referring to George Steinbrenner as "Stein-Hitler." Absolutely hated the guy - must have been late '80's, early '90's. Fast forward a few years, I ended up loving the guy.

I didn't much like Tom Coughlin, either, when the Giants hired him. Thought he was too much of a hard-ass. Of course, I ended up loving him, too. Go figure.


I got to run but the poitns I made -- we might od these things because of a 3-4

1-- I read how we're going to select Gary over Oliver becuase of fit.
2-- Tomlinson is not as effective as NT.
3-- We're going to select Greedy over Murphy and Baker because of a fit.

If you do these things because of 3-4 then imo it does matter. Read what SY has said about Oliver. He thinks he can be explosive in the right scheme but it doesn;t seem like he thinks he can in a 3-4. Thne read why we're going to take Gary at 6 maybe, Cuz he fits the 3-4 well.

I think a 4-3 is better, cuz you find and sustain a a 4-3 longer and overall its' just better imo.
...  
christian : 4/14/2019 6:34 pm : link
The Colts are an interesting comparison. They had a dynamite draft, first team with 2 All Pro rookies in more than 50 years.

If the Giants draft an All Pro on each side of the ball, Manning has a dramatic return to form, and the Giants offensive line tops the league the Giants will be pretty good.

That's a lot right? Maybe more likely it will take a couple of years for this type of improvement?
Yes  
plato : 4/14/2019 10:17 pm : link
!
This team will be much improved if three things happen:  
SGMen : 4/14/2019 11:02 pm : link
First, we stay healthy through camp and the season.
Second, we have a great draft and our young players develop a lot (D. Thompson, J. Peppers, L. Carter, BJ Hill, R. McIntosh, S. Beal, E. Engram, etc.) as there is talent here.

If we do sign RT Remmers and he does play RT well for us, this offense could really click. Or if at #17 we get a starting RT who plays well quickly.
Third, this team has to "come together" as a team that believes in DG, PS and Bettcher. The lockeroom issues of the past should be fixed now.

We have an easier schedule too. Now, if QB Lauletta does step up by growing up we have some hope for the future. LOL. But seriously, Eli with protection and a run game could do some damage right? 38 or not??

What would really HURT this team is if Lauletta doesn't develop; we have no #2 QB who could develop (thinking AZ's Rosen via trade...); and Eli goes down or just looks really old, well, we could be a 3 - 13 debacle rather than the 10 - 6 hopeful I believe could happen if things fall right.
RE: This team will be much improved if three things happen:  
Jimmy Googs : 4/14/2019 11:07 pm : link
In comment 14386627 SGMen said:
Quote:
.


First- score more points
Second- give up less points
Third- stop playing the Eagles

RE: RE: This team will be much improved if three things happen:  
SGMen : 4/14/2019 11:10 pm : link
In comment 14386637 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14386627 SGMen said:


Quote:


.



First- score more points
Second- give up less points
Third- stop playing the Eagles
Well said, well done. I do agree. LOL.
RE: This team will be much improved if three things happen:  
giantstock : 4/14/2019 11:51 pm : link
In comment 14386627 SGMen said:
Quote:
First, we stay healthy through camp and the season.
Second, we have a great draft and our young players develop a lot (D. Thompson, J. Peppers, L. Carter, BJ Hill, R. McIntosh, S. Beal, E. Engram, etc.) as there is talent here.

If we do sign RT Remmers and he does play RT well for us, this offense could really click. Or if at #17 we get a starting RT who plays well quickly.
Third, this team has to "come together" as a team that believes in DG, PS and Bettcher. The lockeroom issues of the past should be fixed now.

We have an easier schedule too. Now, if QB Lauletta does step up by growing up we have some hope for the future. LOL. But seriously, Eli with protection and a run game could do some damage right? 38 or not??

What would really HURT this team is if Lauletta doesn't develop; we have no #2 QB who could develop (thinking AZ's Rosen via trade...); and Eli goes down or just looks really old, well, we could be a 3 - 13 debacle rather than the 10 - 6 hopeful I believe could happen if things fall right.


It would be amazing if a lot of good things happen. Absolutely. ANd imo ELi can possibly do well if his OLINE is "very good."

But if you are the defense, how do you play the Giants offense?
ANd realistically how good do you think the defense is going to be this year? They were among the worst in the league.

You expect the guys they take in the early round will automatically be studs right from the get-go?

SO if the defense does struggle how do you think the opposing team's defense will play against the Giants and what great game breakers at WR (or TE) do the GMEn have to counteract?
I like some of the things DG is doing  
Jersey55 : 4/15/2019 4:47 pm : link
and I do believe that he has the team going in the right direction but I'm definitely not onboard with bringing in over the hill players who can't do much more than suck out the cap money and have no bearing on the future of this team. DG should concentrate on the future direction of the team and that would begin with getting rid of Eli Manning who is part of those cap sucking over the hill veterans...
RE: Its all the qbís fault  
Jersey55 : 4/15/2019 4:51 pm : link
In comment 14384905 djm said:
Quote:
Never mind the terrible defense and OL the last 7 years. And these are slam dunk facts. But never mind those facts...

Iíll never be able to forgive giants fans for the ridiculousness that occurred during most of Eliís career here. I thought Simms was over scrutinized and that fans would learn. The old timers may have....

Eli's biggest problem right now is that he is staying far too long, he has exceeded his shelf life...
RE: RE: Itís been 7 years  
Jersey55 : 4/15/2019 5:18 pm : link
In comment 14384902 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14384682 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Of bad football. So apparently it is hard.

Donít expect good football until there is a change at quarterback.



Wow.


if now is not the time to get a new QB then when will be a better one, what more do people need to see the realize the Eli train has left the station and gone off the rails..
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