That is never going to happen. That would be crazy esp seeing you have to pay him a boat load. Makes no sense its the reason why Odell gets just a first and A.Brown as well the money you pay is the biggest problem. So one first would be enough to get it done. Not two first two seconds.
If RW was a FA then I would be all in. I wouldn't trade a thing for him. We need too much help everywhere else. There is no shot in hell I would give up close to that for the right to pay a qb 35 million a year. So great we get Wilson and still need 4 defensive players to win...nope Id rather get the 4 defensive players if that were my choice and do one more year with Eli.
If theres any chance hes available I would be very aggressive in going after him. I don't care what the cost- picks and contract. He is a top 5 QB in the league.
If RW was a FA then I would be all in. I wouldn't trade a thing for him. We need too much help everywhere else. There is no shot in hell I would give up close to that for the right to pay a qb 35 million a year. So great we get Wilson and still need 4 defensive players to win...nope Id rather get the 4 defensive players if that were my choice and do one more year with Eli.
Because eli is almost as good as Wilson, right? The difference between Eli and Wilson is the difference between contending and winning 5 games.
If RW was a FA then I would be all in. I wouldn't trade a thing for him. We need too much help everywhere else. There is no shot in hell I would give up close to that for the right to pay a qb 35 million a year. So great we get Wilson and still need 4 defensive players to win...nope Id rather get the 4 defensive players if that were my choice and do one more year with Eli.
Because eli is almost as good as Wilson, right? The difference between Eli and Wilson is the difference between contending and winning 5 games.
If RW was a FA then I would be all in. I wouldn't trade a thing for him. We need too much help everywhere else. There is no shot in hell I would give up close to that for the right to pay a qb 35 million a year. So great we get Wilson and still need 4 defensive players to win...nope Id rather get the 4 defensive players if that were my choice and do one more year with Eli.
Because eli is almost as good as Wilson, right? The difference between Eli and Wilson is the difference between contending and winning 5 games.
Lol, no it isn’t.
yea i know your thinking. You think QBs are overrated.
as I would love to have Wilson on the team, it just doesn't seem realistic. A lot of holes and depth to fill to give up that much, especially when a lot of reports are saying they aren't even willing to give up a 2nd rounder for Rosen.
RE: And then conviniently has Kyler Murray slip to the hawks at #3? Â
yea i know your thinking. You think QBs are overrated.
No I just have a belief on how the importance of the surronding casts are and how important each facet of the game is. Russell Wilson is a wonderful QB. He wouldnt have made us 5 games better last year.
And trading 4 premium picks for him is just dumb. I wouldnt even do it for Mahomes.
he was just having fun in his last mock before his 'real' mock; that's ok, as someone said in the Murray thread, after all, it's draft season, why the hell not?
yea i know your thinking. You think QBs are overrated.
No I just have a belief on how the importance of the surronding casts are and how important each facet of the game is. Russell Wilson is a wonderful QB. He wouldnt have made us 5 games better last year.
And trading 4 premium picks for him is just dumb. I wouldnt even do it for Mahomes.
I doubt very much Seattle is going to deal Wilson, so my guess is that this is a moot point. But that is the cost of an elite qb - even if you still have to pay him. I'm not saying the giants should do it. I don't think they are in an optimal position to make such a move. But Wilson is money in the bank, slam dunk elite, which is not something you can say about Haskins, Murray, Rosen,
yea i know your thinking. You think QBs are overrated.
No I just have a belief on how the importance of the surronding casts are and how important each facet of the game is. Russell Wilson is a wonderful QB. He wouldnt have made us 5 games better last year.
And trading 4 premium picks for him is just dumb. I wouldnt even do it for Mahomes.
I don't want to argue with you but I am genuinely curious what your in a perfect world 3 year plan for the Giants at qb would be?
That would be a fair trade if the Giants had Wilson on a reasonable contract.
Wilson's value is depreciated due to his impending contract requirements.
Fair value based upon his contract demands are closer to
the 6th pick this year and a conditional 2nd next year.
Wilson is worth a haul with or without the contract requirements.. You guys are getting hung up on the cap hit. First you have to consider the scarcity. There are 3 to 5 qbs in the league at wilson's level. You pay for that, high dollar contract or not..
I don't want to argue with you but I am genuinely curious what your in a perfect world 3 year plan for the Giants at qb would be?
Last year, I was all-in with Darnold. But they didnt go that route. I am not enamored with any QBs at 6. You can persuade me with Lock or Haskins at 17.
If not, you look to next year. See where you are drafting. See how guys like Herbert, Tua, Fromm, Eason, etc... turn out.
I don't want to argue with you but I am genuinely curious what your in a perfect world 3 year plan for the Giants at qb would be?
Last year, I was all-in with Darnold. But they didnt go that route. I am not enamored with any QBs at 6. You can persuade me with Lock or Haskins at 17.
If not, you look to next year. See where you are drafting. See how guys like Herbert, Tua, Fromm, Eason, etc... turn out.
fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I would be nauseous Â
fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
Well if we are going to be as bad as everyone says here, why would we? If we are only a 5 win team... we should have a top 7 pick.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I would be nauseous Â
fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
Well if we are going to be as bad as everyone says here, why would we? If we are only a 5 win team... we should have a top 7 pick.
We will be a bad team. We will win 5 or 6 games. By that time there will be warts on Fromm and Tua and Herbert and everyone will be saying we need to draft a DT or something, we should wait for Lawrence.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I would be nauseous Â
fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
Well if we are going to be as bad as everyone says here, why would we? If we are only a 5 win team... we should have a top 7 pick.
We will be a bad team. We will win 5 or 6 games. By that time there will be warts on Fromm and Tua and Herbert and everyone will be saying we need to draft a DT or something, we should wait for Lawrence.
The only difference is we wont have a functional QB on the roster. And before you get into Eli stinks, or he is going to be re-signed. One of the big reasons we didnt take a QB last year was because Eli is better than what the average fan (that would be you) thinks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I would be nauseous Â
fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
Well if we are going to be as bad as everyone says here, why would we? If we are only a 5 win team... we should have a top 7 pick.
We will be a bad team. We will win 5 or 6 games. By that time there will be warts on Fromm and Tua and Herbert and everyone will be saying we need to draft a DT or something, we should wait for Lawrence.
The only difference is we wont have a functional QB on the roster. And before you get into Eli stinks, or he is going to be re-signed. One of the big reasons we didnt take a QB last year was because Eli is better than what the average fan (that would be you) thinks.
He is not better than we think. He is much worse that you think. Just about everybody outside of New York sees it. I could post 100 analysts who see it. On film he is atrocious. He is a check down robot he only takes what the defense gives him on 3rd and long. He either lacks the ability or the confidence to win games with daring throws into the defense. It is crazy you are defending him. Our win totals tell you all you need to know.
Ill take the word of the players on the team over "analysts" any day of the week.
Eli lost the players and the locker room.. Are you out to lunch. Odell was angry that the Giants were sticking with Eli, and he was speaking for others. If you listen to the players, Eli is finished.
Ill take the word of the players on the team over "analysts" any day of the week.
Eli lost the players and the locker room.. Are you out to lunch. Odell was angry that the Giants were sticking with Eli, and he was speaking for others. If you listen to the players, Eli is finished.
Odell is gone - so who gives a fuck? A guy who quit on his team is a guy who I could care less about.
Barkley, Shepard, and Engram have spoken glowingly about Eli publicly this offseason. I guess they are scrubs, right?
That is flat out false. It's not close to being true. Here's what is true. Odell was not nearly as liked as you think
Nonsense. That is why there were tons of articles reporting Eli was losing the locker room and just about none saying how great the giants locker room was under Eli in 2018.
Ill take the word of the players on the team over "analysts" any day of the week.
Eli lost the players and the locker room.. Are you out to lunch. Odell was angry that the Giants were sticking with Eli, and he was speaking for others. If you listen to the players, Eli is finished.
Odell is gone - so who gives a fuck? A guy who quit on his team is a guy who I could care less about.
Barkley, Shepard, and Engram have spoken glowingly about Eli publicly this offseason. I guess they are scrubs, right?
You're delusional. When Eli is gone the truth will come out. You really expect those guys to go on the record dissing Eli?
That is flat out false. It's not close to being true. Here's what is true. Odell was not nearly as liked as you think
Nonsense. That is why there were tons of articles reporting Eli was losing the locker room and just about none saying how great the giants locker room was under Eli in 2018.
I can also point to tons of nfl people who know eli can still play
I’m not trying to start something - but who are those NFL people? Are any of them not associated with the Giants? Because I have yet to see any give that opinion.
Again, I’m not trying to fight; I’d just like to know who those people are.
I can also point to tons of nfl people who know eli can still play
I’m not trying to start something - but who are those NFL people? Are any of them not associated with the Giants? Because I have yet to see any give that opinion.
Again, I’m not trying to fight; I’d just like to know who those people are.
Name one person in any organization who has come out with their name associated with their quote agaisnt Eli? I know there are "unnamed sources" - but that doestn hold a stop of water with me.
I can also point to tons of nfl people who know eli can still play
I’m not trying to start something - but who are those NFL people? Are any of them not associated with the Giants? Because I have yet to see any give that opinion.
Again, I’m not trying to fight; I’d just like to know who those people are.
Name one person in any organization who has come out with their name associated with their quote agaisnt Eli? I know there are "unnamed sources" - but that doestn hold a stop of water with me.
That's a redicoulous ask. You can't find a quote from the org against any player on the team.
I can also point to tons of nfl people who know eli can still play
I’m not trying to start something - but who are those NFL people? Are any of them not associated with the Giants? Because I have yet to see any give that opinion.
Again, I’m not trying to fight; I’d just like to know who those people are.
Name one person in any organization who has come out with their name associated with their quote agaisnt Eli? I know there are "unnamed sources" - but that doestn hold a stop of water with me.
That’s fine. But no one I’ve seen - media or otherwise - believes he can play. The only people who say he can seem to be from our front office or fans of the team. I know it’s easy to dismiss everyone from the media as incompetent, wanting clicks, etc., but at some point isn’t it possible that the narrative around the league that the guy can’t play? Lombardi thrashed Eli on Traina’s podcast. What is his motive for doing so? Adam Schein - same thing. I could name dozens of others. At some point, isn’t it possible that they are correct, not incompetent?
That’s fine. But no one I’ve seen - media or otherwise - believes he can play. The only people who say he can seem to be from our front office or fans of the team. I know it’s easy to dismiss everyone from the media as incompetent, wanting clicks, etc., but at some point isn’t it possible that the narrative around the league that the guy can’t play? Lombardi thrashed Eli on Traina’s podcast. What is his motive for doing so? Adam Schein - same thing. I could name dozens of others. At some point, isn’t it possible that they are correct, not incompetent?
Here is what I learned about media personnel. They are only relevant if people listen to them, click their articles, or subscribe to them. Many of the football fans in America are pretty clueless when it comes to the game. Which is no one's fault. I mean they dont understand the little things of the game. So, thats their target audience. So when they need to beh eard, who better to go at then high named players? If they were to come out and say Eli was still capable of winning - do you think people would read or listen to them? Look at OBJ while he was here. If there was a ratio of postiive to negative articles - which one comes out on top?
When they say its all about clicks, in reality - it really is.
This trade is a bad idea - but not a crazy idea. Â
It's a bad idea because if you acquire Wilson and have to play him $30M, you will need some good, young, cost-controlled players – exactly the kind of players you'd hope to get with those picks. Without them, you'd likely end up clawing to get to mediocrity. I'm reminded of the Fran Tarkenton Giants teams — and that was pre-salary cap.
It's not a crazy idea because draft picks have a high bust rate, for every team and every GM. Trading four rolls of the dice for a proven, elite QB isn't crazy.
It makes MUCH more sense to trade a package of picks like that to draft a QB — because then the QB you draft is cost-controlled. If you get a cost-controlled, elite QB, you are set up for success.
Start w Brian baldinger. Gregg Costello mayock before he took raiders job. I can go on. Many in the league disagree w the false narrative that's being force fed
And there’s no way in hell that Wilson would turn us into a contender with essentially the same offense but even worse defense this year (no draft at all to help the D).
Now, after plugging holes in 2019, I do make that trade (next year’s equivalent). But not for Wilson. For Fromm or Tua.
and have to lock him up for 35 million plus for 5 years....
Id give up #17 and a 2nd in 2020. Not a single thing more.
This is interesting and something more feasible. You'd have to send Eli to Seattle, too, right?
Apparently, Wilson wants a contract that is locked in as a % of the cap, not specific dollars. So if the agreed to % is 20%, then as the cap goes up so goes Wilson's salary.
and have to lock him up for 35 million plus for 5 years....
Id give up #17 and a 2nd in 2020. Not a single thing more.
This is interesting and something more feasible. You'd have to send Eli to Seattle, too, right?
Apparently, Wilson wants a contract that is locked in as a % of the cap, not specific dollars. So if the agreed to % is 20%, then as the cap goes up so goes Wilson's salary.
You trade for Wilson, you cut Eli an absorb the 5 million loss.
Start w Brian baldinger. Gregg Costello mayock before he took raiders job. I can go on. Many in the league disagree w the false narrative that's being force fed
I think the continued use of "false narrative" is a bit inflammatory to the conversation. It's a point of view that the Giants (and you, obviously) clearly disagree with, certainly. But it's not as if there isn't some level of evidence to suggest that Eli absolutely is in decline, just like there is some level of evidence to suggest that he's still as good as he ever was.
On top of that, this whole "force-fed" nonsense is getting a little tiresome. There are plenty of people who are capable of thinking for themselves who question how much Eli has left in the tank. It's a bit ironic and very hypocritical to keep suggesting that these opinions are force-fed but that yours and yours alone is valid simply because the Giants (owners of that sparkling 8-24 record over the past two seasons) happen to share it.
We can sit here and debate how much of that is due to Eli himself and how much is due to the team surrounding him, but this repetition of "false narrative" is a bit much at this point (along with the "you anti-Eli people" which can get filed away with every other "you people" type of opinion). It's not a false narrative. It's an unanswered question.
Start w Brian baldinger. Gregg Costello mayock before he took raiders job. I can go on. Many in the league disagree w the false narrative that's being force fed
Good luck being the NFL insider that reports something negative about a Manning.
Your insider days will be done in a hurry.
I repeat Nauseous if we give up this draft capital ...I agree w/ DEP Â
I see you somewhat agreed with my comment and then had to defend yourself. Why would anyone think I think Eli is btr than Wilson. People just take what they want from any statement and run with it. To clarify and I know you understood this.. I'll take Eli and...and 4 stud draft picks over russel wilson and a 5 year 170 million dollar obligation.. So Eli, lets say Oliver, Ferrell, taylor rapp and Julian Love over Russel wilson. Hell yes.
RE: I repeat Nauseous if we give up this draft capital ...I agree w/ DEP Â
I see you somewhat agreed with my comment and then had to defend yourself. Why would anyone think I think Eli is btr than Wilson. People just take what they want from any statement and run with it. To clarify and I know you understood this.. I'll take Eli and...and 4 stud draft picks over russel wilson and a 5 year 170 million dollar obligation.. So Eli, lets say Oliver, Ferrell, taylor rapp and Julian Love over Russel wilson. Hell yes.
fine.. but you can't win anything with that and you are a year deeper into qb limbo. Eli is awful at this stage of his career.
no way would they trade two firsts and two seconds for Russell Wilson Â
He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
RE: no way would they trade two firsts and two seconds for Russell Wilson Â
He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
Start w Brian baldinger. Gregg Costello mayock before he took raiders job. I can go on. Many in the league disagree w the false narrative that's being force fed
I think the continued use of "false narrative" is a bit inflammatory to the conversation. It's a point of view that the Giants (and you, obviously) clearly disagree with, certainly. But it's not as if there isn't some level of evidence to suggest that Eli absolutely is in decline, just like there is some level of evidence to suggest that he's still as good as he ever was.
On top of that, this whole "force-fed" nonsense is getting a little tiresome. There are plenty of people who are capable of thinking for themselves who question how much Eli has left in the tank. It's a bit ironic and very hypocritical to keep suggesting that these opinions are force-fed but that yours and yours alone is valid simply because the Giants (owners of that sparkling 8-24 record over the past two seasons) happen to share it.
We can sit here and debate how much of that is due to Eli himself and how much is due to the team surrounding him, but this repetition of "false narrative" is a bit much at this point (along with the "you anti-Eli people" which can get filed away with every other "you people" type of opinion). It's not a false narrative. It's an unanswered question.
I think you and I kicked this around last week. Or maybe it was another poster...
But this narrative that Eli is the innocent bystander through all of this QB controversy is total bullsh-t. When the benching occurred, it was clear to be that Team Manning mobilized to control the messaging; and sent Eli out to the cameras weeping for support...
RE: RE: no way would they trade two firsts and two seconds for Russell Wilson Â
He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
One of the dumbest mock draft I've seen so far.... Â
He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
He is elite. You will come around eventually. Very good is the next tier down.
RE: RE: RE: no way would they trade two firsts and two seconds for Russell Wilson Â
He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
Russell Wilson is absolutely an elite QB. Maybe he's not worth the combined cost of draft picks PLUS his contract, but he's definitely an elite QB.
Plus the way this team has been gutted, you don't give away that many premium picks with so many significant holes to fill. IMO the team will look for a young gun (this year or next) to groom behind Eli.
He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
Russell Wilson is absolutely an elite QB. Maybe he's not worth the combined cost of draft picks PLUS his contract, but he's definitely an elite QB.
Since he isn’t as good as Brady or Rodgers, who I consider the only 2 elite QBs in the league.... Russell Wilson is a tier below.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: no way would they trade two firsts and two seconds for Russell Wilson Â
He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
Russell Wilson is absolutely an elite QB. Maybe he's not worth the combined cost of draft picks PLUS his contract, but he's definitely an elite QB.
Since he isn’t as good as Brady or Rodgers, who I consider the only 2 elite QBs in the league.... Russell Wilson is a tier below.
If those are your standards, then sure. I think that's a little too exclusive, but that's just my opinion - nothing wrong with you choosing to be more selective with the "elite" tag.
If those are your standards, then sure. I think that's a little too exclusive, but that's just my opinion - nothing wrong with you choosing to be more selective with the "elite" tag.
Believe it or not, I am tough in critiquing QBs. I think Rodgers and Brady are so good that it would be unfair to put anyone else on their status and that includes Brees. Doesn’t mean they aren’t HOF players. Just a step below.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: no way would they trade two firsts and two seconds for Russell Wilson Â
If those are your standards, then sure. I think that's a little too exclusive, but that's just my opinion - nothing wrong with you choosing to be more selective with the "elite" tag.
Believe it or not, I am tough in critiquing QBs. I think Rodgers and Brady are so good that it would be unfair to put anyone else on their status and that includes Brees. Doesn’t mean they aren’t HOF players. Just a step below.
Wilson's career compares very favorably to Brady's career at the same age. Rodgers is probably ahead. This is much closer than you think. Brady was a system QB until the 16-0 season.
RE: I wouldn’t make that trade, especially not this year Â
And there’s no way in hell that Wilson would turn us into a contender with essentially the same offense but even worse defense this year (no draft at all to help the D).
Now, after plugging holes in 2019, I do make that trade (next year’s equivalent). But not for Wilson. For Fromm or Tua.
Good call Bill no knock on Wilson but I prefer geting
a younger gifted QB New Caddy tha a beamer with a lot of
miles .
If the manner by which you conclude that Eli Manning Â
there's this large contingent of NFL fans who actively search for articles that are negative about Eli Manning and then click on them, or can't resist clicking on an article that might be negative about Eli... a contingent large enough that writers are actively engaging in them just for clicks?
there's this large contingent of NFL fans who actively search for articles that are negative about Eli Manning and then click on them, or can't resist clicking on an article that might be negative about Eli... a contingent large enough that writers are actively engaging in them just for clicks?
Controversy generates clicks. You morons have been fighting over Eli's merits for 15 years. In the media capital of the world. No matter which side if the argument you are on, you are clicking.
there's this large contingent of NFL fans who actively search for articles that are negative about Eli Manning and then click on them, or can't resist clicking on an article that might be negative about Eli... a contingent large enough that writers are actively engaging in them just for clicks?
Yes I do. I actually teach a class about the media’s influence on society and how the public specifically click on specific topics. And I believe a lot of the media did the same to OBJ as well.
When there’s a topic people click on and read, you stick with it.
Articles that are critical of Eli Manning -- or merely articles that reference a potential decline in his skills as they discuss the state of the Giants -- are simply written to generate clicks?
Lol it will not cost close to that much.
+1
Quote:
these people are insane.
Lol it will not cost close to that much.
I'm not saying we should make this deal. The Giants are probably too terrible at this stage to make such a trade. But yes, that is what it will cost.
Because eli is almost as good as Wilson, right? The difference between Eli and Wilson is the difference between contending and winning 5 games.
Quote:
If RW was a FA then I would be all in. I wouldn't trade a thing for him. We need too much help everywhere else. There is no shot in hell I would give up close to that for the right to pay a qb 35 million a year. So great we get Wilson and still need 4 defensive players to win...nope Id rather get the 4 defensive players if that were my choice and do one more year with Eli.
Because eli is almost as good as Wilson, right? The difference between Eli and Wilson is the difference between contending and winning 5 games.
Lol, no it isn’t.
Quote:
In comment 14387148 bluetothegrave said:
Quote:
If RW was a FA then I would be all in. I wouldn't trade a thing for him. We need too much help everywhere else. There is no shot in hell I would give up close to that for the right to pay a qb 35 million a year. So great we get Wilson and still need 4 defensive players to win...nope Id rather get the 4 defensive players if that were my choice and do one more year with Eli.
Because eli is almost as good as Wilson, right? The difference between Eli and Wilson is the difference between contending and winning 5 games.
Lol, no it isn’t.
yea i know your thinking. You think QBs are overrated.
LOL. Exactly what I was thinking!
yea i know your thinking. You think QBs are overrated.
No I just have a belief on how the importance of the surronding casts are and how important each facet of the game is. Russell Wilson is a wonderful QB. He wouldnt have made us 5 games better last year.
And trading 4 premium picks for him is just dumb. I wouldnt even do it for Mahomes.
Quote:
yea i know your thinking. You think QBs are overrated.
No I just have a belief on how the importance of the surronding casts are and how important each facet of the game is. Russell Wilson is a wonderful QB. He wouldnt have made us 5 games better last year.
And trading 4 premium picks for him is just dumb. I wouldnt even do it for Mahomes.
I doubt very much Seattle is going to deal Wilson, so my guess is that this is a moot point. But that is the cost of an elite qb - even if you still have to pay him. I'm not saying the giants should do it. I don't think they are in an optimal position to make such a move. But Wilson is money in the bank, slam dunk elite, which is not something you can say about Haskins, Murray, Rosen,
Quote:
yea i know your thinking. You think QBs are overrated.
No I just have a belief on how the importance of the surronding casts are and how important each facet of the game is. Russell Wilson is a wonderful QB. He wouldnt have made us 5 games better last year.
And trading 4 premium picks for him is just dumb. I wouldnt even do it for Mahomes.
I don't want to argue with you but I am genuinely curious what your in a perfect world 3 year plan for the Giants at qb would be?
Wilson's value is depreciated due to his impending contract requirements.
Fair value based upon his contract demands are closer to
the 6th pick this year and a conditional 2nd next year.
Wilson's value is depreciated due to his impending contract requirements.
Fair value based upon his contract demands are closer to
the 6th pick this year and a conditional 2nd next year.
Wilson is worth a haul with or without the contract requirements.. You guys are getting hung up on the cap hit. First you have to consider the scarcity. There are 3 to 5 qbs in the league at wilson's level. You pay for that, high dollar contract or not..
I don't want to argue with you but I am genuinely curious what your in a perfect world 3 year plan for the Giants at qb would be?
Last year, I was all-in with Darnold. But they didnt go that route. I am not enamored with any QBs at 6. You can persuade me with Lock or Haskins at 17.
If not, you look to next year. See where you are drafting. See how guys like Herbert, Tua, Fromm, Eason, etc... turn out.
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I don't want to argue with you but I am genuinely curious what your in a perfect world 3 year plan for the Giants at qb would be?
Last year, I was all-in with Darnold. But they didnt go that route. I am not enamored with any QBs at 6. You can persuade me with Lock or Haskins at 17.
If not, you look to next year. See where you are drafting. See how guys like Herbert, Tua, Fromm, Eason, etc... turn out.
fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
Well if we are going to be as bad as everyone says here, why would we? If we are only a 5 win team... we should have a top 7 pick.
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fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
Well if we are going to be as bad as everyone says here, why would we? If we are only a 5 win team... we should have a top 7 pick.
We will be a bad team. We will win 5 or 6 games. By that time there will be warts on Fromm and Tua and Herbert and everyone will be saying we need to draft a DT or something, we should wait for Lawrence.
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In comment 14387238 Ned In Atlanta said:
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fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
Well if we are going to be as bad as everyone says here, why would we? If we are only a 5 win team... we should have a top 7 pick.
We will be a bad team. We will win 5 or 6 games. By that time there will be warts on Fromm and Tua and Herbert and everyone will be saying we need to draft a DT or something, we should wait for Lawrence.
The only difference is we wont have a functional QB on the roster. And before you get into Eli stinks, or he is going to be re-signed. One of the big reasons we didnt take a QB last year was because Eli is better than what the average fan (that would be you) thinks.
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In comment 14387239 dep026 said:
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In comment 14387238 Ned In Atlanta said:
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fair enough. My concern is what kind of draft capital we're going to have to give up to move up next year in the event that the bottom doesn't fall out this year
Well if we are going to be as bad as everyone says here, why would we? If we are only a 5 win team... we should have a top 7 pick.
We will be a bad team. We will win 5 or 6 games. By that time there will be warts on Fromm and Tua and Herbert and everyone will be saying we need to draft a DT or something, we should wait for Lawrence.
The only difference is we wont have a functional QB on the roster. And before you get into Eli stinks, or he is going to be re-signed. One of the big reasons we didnt take a QB last year was because Eli is better than what the average fan (that would be you) thinks.
He is not better than we think. He is much worse that you think. Just about everybody outside of New York sees it. I could post 100 analysts who see it. On film he is atrocious. He is a check down robot he only takes what the defense gives him on 3rd and long. He either lacks the ability or the confidence to win games with daring throws into the defense. It is crazy you are defending him. Our win totals tell you all you need to know.
Eli lost the players and the locker room.. Are you out to lunch. Odell was angry that the Giants were sticking with Eli, and he was speaking for others. If you listen to the players, Eli is finished.
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Ill take the word of the players on the team over "analysts" any day of the week.
Eli lost the players and the locker room.. Are you out to lunch. Odell was angry that the Giants were sticking with Eli, and he was speaking for others. If you listen to the players, Eli is finished.
Odell is gone - so who gives a fuck? A guy who quit on his team is a guy who I could care less about.
Barkley, Shepard, and Engram have spoken glowingly about Eli publicly this offseason. I guess they are scrubs, right?
I thought the locker room was coated in his love slime...
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That is flat out false. It's not close to being true. Here's what is true. Odell was not nearly as liked as you think
I thought the locker room was coated in his love slime...
That may have been the problem. Those hookers....
Nonsense. That is why there were tons of articles reporting Eli was losing the locker room and just about none saying how great the giants locker room was under Eli in 2018.
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In comment 14387264 dep026 said:
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Ill take the word of the players on the team over "analysts" any day of the week.
Eli lost the players and the locker room.. Are you out to lunch. Odell was angry that the Giants were sticking with Eli, and he was speaking for others. If you listen to the players, Eli is finished.
Odell is gone - so who gives a fuck? A guy who quit on his team is a guy who I could care less about.
Barkley, Shepard, and Engram have spoken glowingly about Eli publicly this offseason. I guess they are scrubs, right?
You're delusional. When Eli is gone the truth will come out. You really expect those guys to go on the record dissing Eli?
You're delusional. When Eli is gone the truth will come out. You really expect those guys to go on the record dissing Eli?
Beckham and McAdoo did. Why wouldnt they?
Link - ( New Window )
He's a great teammate though.
But, it's Russel Wilson. He's a terrific player, definitely not too old (yet). You try to get him if you can...
What would a reasonable deal for Wilson be?
I'm not sure. It would definitely have to include the 6th pick probably 17 and/or 37...maybe a conditional pick next year to get done. At a minimum...
Probably too much to give up in our current state right now.
Id give up #17 and a 2nd in 2020. Not a single thing more.
Go post on the Brown's board...you are on Cleveland's team now.
Your act is getting tiring.
Your posts are like your "peeing" on the field at the Linc... embarrassing.
In comment 14387302 FranchiseQB said:
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That is flat out false. It's not close to being true. Here's what is true. Odell was not nearly as liked as you think
Nonsense. That is why there were tons of articles reporting Eli was losing the locker room and just about none saying how great the giants locker room was under Eli in 2018.
I’m not trying to start something - but who are those NFL people? Are any of them not associated with the Giants? Because I have yet to see any give that opinion.
Again, I’m not trying to fight; I’d just like to know who those people are.
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I can also point to tons of nfl people who know eli can still play
I’m not trying to start something - but who are those NFL people? Are any of them not associated with the Giants? Because I have yet to see any give that opinion.
Again, I’m not trying to fight; I’d just like to know who those people are.
Name one person in any organization who has come out with their name associated with their quote agaisnt Eli? I know there are "unnamed sources" - but that doestn hold a stop of water with me.
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In comment 14387287 jtgiants said:
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I can also point to tons of nfl people who know eli can still play
I’m not trying to start something - but who are those NFL people? Are any of them not associated with the Giants? Because I have yet to see any give that opinion.
Again, I’m not trying to fight; I’d just like to know who those people are.
Name one person in any organization who has come out with their name associated with their quote agaisnt Eli? I know there are "unnamed sources" - but that doestn hold a stop of water with me.
That's a redicoulous ask. You can't find a quote from the org against any player on the team.
That's a redicoulous ask. You can't find a quote from the org against any player on the team.
Exactly.
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In comment 14387287 jtgiants said:
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I can also point to tons of nfl people who know eli can still play
I’m not trying to start something - but who are those NFL people? Are any of them not associated with the Giants? Because I have yet to see any give that opinion.
Again, I’m not trying to fight; I’d just like to know who those people are.
Name one person in any organization who has come out with their name associated with their quote agaisnt Eli? I know there are "unnamed sources" - but that doestn hold a stop of water with me.
That’s fine. But no one I’ve seen - media or otherwise - believes he can play. The only people who say he can seem to be from our front office or fans of the team. I know it’s easy to dismiss everyone from the media as incompetent, wanting clicks, etc., but at some point isn’t it possible that the narrative around the league that the guy can’t play? Lombardi thrashed Eli on Traina’s podcast. What is his motive for doing so? Adam Schein - same thing. I could name dozens of others. At some point, isn’t it possible that they are correct, not incompetent?
That’s fine. But no one I’ve seen - media or otherwise - believes he can play. The only people who say he can seem to be from our front office or fans of the team. I know it’s easy to dismiss everyone from the media as incompetent, wanting clicks, etc., but at some point isn’t it possible that the narrative around the league that the guy can’t play? Lombardi thrashed Eli on Traina’s podcast. What is his motive for doing so? Adam Schein - same thing. I could name dozens of others. At some point, isn’t it possible that they are correct, not incompetent?
Here is what I learned about media personnel. They are only relevant if people listen to them, click their articles, or subscribe to them. Many of the football fans in America are pretty clueless when it comes to the game. Which is no one's fault. I mean they dont understand the little things of the game. So, thats their target audience. So when they need to beh eard, who better to go at then high named players? If they were to come out and say Eli was still capable of winning - do you think people would read or listen to them? Look at OBJ while he was here. If there was a ratio of postiive to negative articles - which one comes out on top?
When they say its all about clicks, in reality - it really is.
It's not a crazy idea because draft picks have a high bust rate, for every team and every GM. Trading four rolls of the dice for a proven, elite QB isn't crazy.
It makes MUCH more sense to trade a package of picks like that to draft a QB — because then the QB you draft is cost-controlled. If you get a cost-controlled, elite QB, you are set up for success.
Now, after plugging holes in 2019, I do make that trade (next year’s equivalent). But not for Wilson. For Fromm or Tua.
For a 30 year old? This guys must see the Giants as a dumb organization. Sheeeh!!😡😠ðŸ˜
I would give the 2020 Rd 1 pick, and that's all, for Rosen or Wilson.
I love the Wilson style of play, but he's old ish.
This is very obviously the front 7 draft.
Id give up #17 and a 2nd in 2020. Not a single thing more.
This is interesting and something more feasible. You'd have to send Eli to Seattle, too, right?
Apparently, Wilson wants a contract that is locked in as a % of the cap, not specific dollars. So if the agreed to % is 20%, then as the cap goes up so goes Wilson's salary.
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and have to lock him up for 35 million plus for 5 years....
Id give up #17 and a 2nd in 2020. Not a single thing more.
This is interesting and something more feasible. You'd have to send Eli to Seattle, too, right?
Apparently, Wilson wants a contract that is locked in as a % of the cap, not specific dollars. So if the agreed to % is 20%, then as the cap goes up so goes Wilson's salary.
You trade for Wilson, you cut Eli an absorb the 5 million loss.
I think the continued use of "false narrative" is a bit inflammatory to the conversation. It's a point of view that the Giants (and you, obviously) clearly disagree with, certainly. But it's not as if there isn't some level of evidence to suggest that Eli absolutely is in decline, just like there is some level of evidence to suggest that he's still as good as he ever was.
On top of that, this whole "force-fed" nonsense is getting a little tiresome. There are plenty of people who are capable of thinking for themselves who question how much Eli has left in the tank. It's a bit ironic and very hypocritical to keep suggesting that these opinions are force-fed but that yours and yours alone is valid simply because the Giants (owners of that sparkling 8-24 record over the past two seasons) happen to share it.
We can sit here and debate how much of that is due to Eli himself and how much is due to the team surrounding him, but this repetition of "false narrative" is a bit much at this point (along with the "you anti-Eli people" which can get filed away with every other "you people" type of opinion). It's not a false narrative. It's an unanswered question.
Good luck being the NFL insider that reports something negative about a Manning.
Your insider days will be done in a hurry.
fine.. but you can't win anything with that and you are a year deeper into qb limbo. Eli is awful at this stage of his career.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
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Start w Brian baldinger. Gregg Costello mayock before he took raiders job. I can go on. Many in the league disagree w the false narrative that's being force fed
I think the continued use of "false narrative" is a bit inflammatory to the conversation. It's a point of view that the Giants (and you, obviously) clearly disagree with, certainly. But it's not as if there isn't some level of evidence to suggest that Eli absolutely is in decline, just like there is some level of evidence to suggest that he's still as good as he ever was.
On top of that, this whole "force-fed" nonsense is getting a little tiresome. There are plenty of people who are capable of thinking for themselves who question how much Eli has left in the tank. It's a bit ironic and very hypocritical to keep suggesting that these opinions are force-fed but that yours and yours alone is valid simply because the Giants (owners of that sparkling 8-24 record over the past two seasons) happen to share it.
We can sit here and debate how much of that is due to Eli himself and how much is due to the team surrounding him, but this repetition of "false narrative" is a bit much at this point (along with the "you anti-Eli people" which can get filed away with every other "you people" type of opinion). It's not a false narrative. It's an unanswered question.
I think you and I kicked this around last week. Or maybe it was another poster...
But this narrative that Eli is the innocent bystander through all of this QB controversy is total bullsh-t. When the benching occurred, it was clear to be that Team Manning mobilized to control the messaging; and sent Eli out to the cameras weeping for support...
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He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
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In comment 14387559 Vanzetti said:
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He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
He is elite. You will come around eventually. Very good is the next tier down.
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In comment 14387559 Vanzetti said:
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He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
Russell Wilson is absolutely an elite QB. Maybe he's not worth the combined cost of draft picks PLUS his contract, but he's definitely an elite QB.
When they say its all about clicks, in reality - it really is.
If it's all about clicks, criticizing Eli Manning sure seems like it would be a poor way to create them.
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When they say its all about clicks, in reality - it really is.
If it's all about clicks, criticizing Eli Manning sure seems like it would be a poor way to create them.
This makes zero sense. Eli has been shit on by the media for 15 years and counting.
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In comment 14387561 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14387559 Vanzetti said:
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He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
Russell Wilson is absolutely an elite QB. Maybe he's not worth the combined cost of draft picks PLUS his contract, but he's definitely an elite QB.
Since he isn’t as good as Brady or Rodgers, who I consider the only 2 elite QBs in the league.... Russell Wilson is a tier below.
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In comment 14387586 Hsilwek92 said:
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In comment 14387561 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14387559 Vanzetti said:
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He is good but not elite like Brady and Brees. He is also wrong side of 30, which is amplified because he relies on athleticism a lot more than the average QB.
Of course he is worth it. He is a Brees-level talent. You will see in ten years time you will view him as a can't miss hall of famer. It is probably not the right move for the Giants at this time but that is his value, rest assured.
He is not elite. He’s a very good QB, but not elite. You can keep typing it but, it still doesn’t make it true.
Russell Wilson is absolutely an elite QB. Maybe he's not worth the combined cost of draft picks PLUS his contract, but he's definitely an elite QB.
Since he isn’t as good as Brady or Rodgers, who I consider the only 2 elite QBs in the league.... Russell Wilson is a tier below.
If those are your standards, then sure. I think that's a little too exclusive, but that's just my opinion - nothing wrong with you choosing to be more selective with the "elite" tag.
I wouldn't trade for him.
If those are your standards, then sure. I think that's a little too exclusive, but that's just my opinion - nothing wrong with you choosing to be more selective with the "elite" tag.
Believe it or not, I am tough in critiquing QBs. I think Rodgers and Brady are so good that it would be unfair to put anyone else on their status and that includes Brees. Doesn’t mean they aren’t HOF players. Just a step below.
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If those are your standards, then sure. I think that's a little too exclusive, but that's just my opinion - nothing wrong with you choosing to be more selective with the "elite" tag.
Believe it or not, I am tough in critiquing QBs. I think Rodgers and Brady are so good that it would be unfair to put anyone else on their status and that includes Brees. Doesn’t mean they aren’t HOF players. Just a step below.
Wilson's career compares very favorably to Brady's career at the same age. Rodgers is probably ahead. This is much closer than you think. Brady was a system QB until the 16-0 season.
Now, after plugging holes in 2019, I do make that trade (next year’s equivalent). But not for Wilson. For Fromm or Tua.
Good call Bill no knock on Wilson but I prefer geting
a younger gifted QB New Caddy tha a beamer with a lot of
miles .
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In comment 14387383 dep026 said:
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When they say its all about clicks, in reality - it really is.
If it's all about clicks, criticizing Eli Manning sure seems like it would be a poor way to create them.
This makes zero sense. Eli has been shit on by the media for 15 years and counting.
Right, so it's not exactly some controversial opinion that will generate clicks out of thin air, is it?
Controversy generates clicks. You morons have been fighting over Eli's merits for 15 years. In the media capital of the world. No matter which side if the argument you are on, you are clicking.
Yes I do. I actually teach a class about the media’s influence on society and how the public specifically click on specific topics. And I believe a lot of the media did the same to OBJ as well.
When there’s a topic people click on and read, you stick with it.
Lonk - ( New Window )