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NFT: There's now way the Notre Dame thread

kennyd : 4/15/2019 3:49 pm
was taken down, is there? I leave this site for 30 minutes and it's gone? WTF is wrong with some people on this site???
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Regulator - thanks I hadnít seen that video  
Dave on the UWS : 4/15/2019 8:23 pm : link
thatís great news.
How do you rebuild something...  
rmc3981 : 4/15/2019 8:31 pm : link
in this day and age that took hundreds of years to build in the first place? Given that Christianity is mostly dead in France, what are you rebuilding it for? For the iconic image it represents? You're certainly not rebuilding for Catholics. Mind you, I'm a Catholic and I'm not trying to be negative about this at all, I'm just asking the question.
RE: I left it for  
santacruzom : 4/15/2019 8:36 pm : link
In comment 14387508 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
30 minutes, came back, and it had turned ugly.



Turned ugly? Wow, how? I completely missed it.
Assuming the offer is real  
NYerInMA : 4/15/2019 8:36 pm : link
100 million euros should help reconstruction quite a bit.
A French Billionaire Has Pledged 100 Million Euros To Help Rebuild The Notre Dame Cathedral - ( New Window )
Terrible Loss for Paris and France  
Percy : 4/15/2019 8:51 pm : link
And for all of Western civilization actually.

I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
RE: Terrible Loss for Paris and France  
madgiantscow009 : 4/15/2019 9:00 pm : link
In comment 14387868 Percy said:
Quote:
And for all of Western civilization actually.

I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?


there was a major fire in a European apartment complex a little while ago with the same questions--it had a faulty or outdated fire sprinkler system. I hope these are outliers and not going to happen in the future.

(not the response time, but the preparedness.
Off topic:  
madgiantscow009 : 4/15/2019 9:02 pm : link
I was googling stained glass online and it seems pretty doable as a weekend project. Would be a good way to make a nice stained glass tribute or skyline things to that nature).

Itís not that hard to believe  
Oscar : 4/15/2019 9:08 pm : link
The cathedral is on a relatively small island and is surrounded by people and other buildings. It had to be difficult just to get fire trucks there in a timely fashion. Massive old building with a wooden roof burning on a windy day, what can you expect? Also as stated before it sounds like the roof was out of range for hoses on the ground anyway and they would have had to go up into the building to get water on it which would be fucking insane in an old building like that considering they didnít have anyone to rescue up there.

Itís an unfortunate accident but I have to imagine the contingency plan for fire at Notre Dame was ďdonít let it catch fireĒ.

Nobody was killed thankfully. From what I read it was open when the fire started and people were still on line to get in, must have been some even of panic. If memory serves it wouldnít be an easy building for a big crowd to pour out of in an orderly fashion.
RE: Terrible Loss for Paris and France  
Chris in Philly : 4/15/2019 9:09 pm : link
In comment 14387868 Percy said:
Quote:
And for all of Western civilization actually.

I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?


How can you say exactly what fire fighting capability was brought to bear?
I read a fire official in the states...  
Chris in Philly : 4/15/2019 9:10 pm : link
said that if old churches and cathedrals were not houses of worship they would be condemned. The way they are built just lends themselves to going up in flames...
Was there a few months ago. Itís a devastating loss.  
Crispino : 4/15/2019 10:09 pm : link
The structure may be rebuilt, but much of the history of itís 850 years is lost forever. Itís heartbreaking to see so many Parisians sobbing as they watched their history burn. One was quoted as saying ďIts like watching a friend die.Ē

Iím so saddened by this. I plan on making a donation to the recovery effort.
I'm shaking my head over this  
JohnF : 4/15/2019 10:09 pm : link
Why aren't historic buildings like this retro fitted with modern fire suppression/sprinkler systems? Yes, that would be expensive, but the cost would be a fraction of what a re-build would take.

Here's an article from BuildingConservation.com going over this very issue!!:

Fire Suppression in Historic Buildings
Suggest the book  
DC Gmen Fan : 4/15/2019 10:43 pm : link
Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. Long book but one of the best I've read.

Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.
RE: Suggest the book  
PatersonPlank : 4/15/2019 10:49 pm : link
In comment 14387980 DC Gmen Fan said:
Quote:
Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. Long book but one of the best I've read.

Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.


Follett is one of my favorite authors.
RE: Terrible Loss for Paris and France  
Existenz : 4/15/2019 11:12 pm : link
In comment 14387868 Percy said:
Quote:
And for all of Western civilization actually.

I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?


Interesting read I came across on twitter of the opinions of someone at least qualified. I come from a family of Newark firemen so plan on asking about their opinions this Sunday at Easter.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Suggest the book  
Existenz : 4/15/2019 11:14 pm : link
In comment 14387980 DC Gmen Fan said:
Quote:
Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. Long book but one of the best I've read.

Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.


My wife and I originally bonded over our shared love of this book. We even talked about it tonight in regards to the attempts to save the relics from the fire in that story and what must have been going on in Notre Dame as the fire broke out.
RE: How do you rebuild something...  
Deejboy : 4/16/2019 2:48 am : link
In comment 14387850 rmc3981 said:
Quote:
in this day and age that took hundreds of years to build in the first place? Given that Christianity is mostly dead in France, what are you rebuilding it for? For the iconic image it represents? You're certainly not rebuilding for Catholics. Mind you, I'm a Catholic and I'm not trying to be negative about this at all, I'm just asking the question.

You are rebuilding it cause it is the most visited landmark in France ahead of the Eiffel tower. You are rebuilding it cause it building that defined Paris. You are hung up on the religious aspect of it. Notre Dame meant waaaay more than that to Paris and France. It was an achievement of their culture.
RE: Suggest the book  
ChaChing : 4/16/2019 2:56 am : link
In comment 14387980 DC Gmen Fan said:
Quote:
Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. Long book but one of the best I've read.

Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.

On topic, you might like Medici: The Magnificent on Netflix. GOT-esque / middle ages, 1st season is mostly about the people & city during the construction of the dome of the cathedral in Florence. Also GOT-esque in that Sean Bean & Richard Madden are in it. It's at least somewhat historically accurate on my cursory look online (names and broad strokes anyway). Decent overall

This fire, unreal to see the pictures. Really sad
The Rose Window survived.  
TICSUAP : 4/16/2019 6:35 am : link

RE: How do you rebuild something...  
Crispino : 4/16/2019 7:08 am : link
In comment 14387850 rmc3981 said:
Quote:
in this day and age that took hundreds of years to build in the first place? Given that Christianity is mostly dead in France, what are you rebuilding it for? For the iconic image it represents? You're certainly not rebuilding for Catholics. Mind you, I'm a Catholic and I'm not trying to be negative about this at all, I'm just asking the question.


The Cathedral holds 2,000 masses per year. People come from all over the world to not only see the Cathedral, but also to worship along with French Catholics.
RE: The Rose Window survived.  
regulator : 4/16/2019 7:47 am : link
In comment 14388125 TICSUAP said:
Quote:


Archbishop of Paris confirms all three major rose windows survived, along with the bells, organ and the most culturally and religiously significant pieces of the collection. They are still taking inventory, and thereís a lot of smoke/water damage, but it would appear the vault indeed functioned to save the vast majority of the churchís interior from the fire above.
Miraculous - ( New Window )
It's a huge symbol of changes in Western Civilization  
Bill2 : 4/16/2019 7:48 am : link
Its the most significant non government forces undertaking up to that time.

Think about it. Up to then only states could collect capital and build things that large over that many years.

It memorializes the rise of craftsman ( the beginning of the professional and middle class). It marks power moving away from the capital center of Rome. I marks the contributions of many people moving voluntarily instead of a few people by force.

It marked people talking other people into significant "movement" over generations instead of the only other lever at the time...force.

It marked non state belief systems into actions.

It's a initial symbol of the movement to tension and then balance between state, religion and individuals that played out over centuries through the Rennisance and finally to the Enlightenment based revolutions.

It was a marker on the road of the power shift from the Mediterranean to the North Sea that still dominates Europe.

It was a symbol, if understood, of a lot more than catholicism.

imo
Was there two summers ago.  
section125 : 4/16/2019 8:23 am : link
Line took over 45 minutes to get in. What stuck out(beside the cathedral) was people with their roller suitcases visiting - but that is seen all over Europe.

French firefighters are on par with the best in the world, but the Paris fire trucks seem exceedingly small, at least the ones I saw while visiting. Tiny streets, unbelievable traffic.

Great to see the Rose window was saved - how that happened with those flames is unreal.

I think the funding to restore will be easily covered by donations - just saw $300 mill from European billionaires pledged already.
RE: The Rose Window survived.  
rnargi : 4/16/2019 9:01 am : link
In comment 14388125 TICSUAP said:
Quote:


Truly amazing...and frankly, a big relief.
Unbelievable photos...  
Dan in the Springs : 4/16/2019 9:18 am : link
thanks for sharing. It actually looks like CANDLES near the altar survived inside. Could anyone comment on the likelihood of that? Seems impossible.

Any word on human injuries/casualties? I haven't heard anything yet and it's too bad that for many it appears that is a secondary thought to the structure itself.

Hoping for the best all around.
RE: RE: The Rose Window survived.  
Eman11 : 4/16/2019 9:19 am : link
In comment 14388158 regulator said:
Quote:
In comment 14388125 TICSUAP said:


Quote:






Archbishop of Paris confirms all three major rose windows survived, along with the bells, organ and the most culturally and religiously significant pieces of the collection. They are still taking inventory, and thereís a lot of smoke/water damage, but it would appear the vault indeed functioned to save the vast majority of the churchís interior from the fire above. Miraculous - ( New Window )


Miraculous indeed. I'm just amazed and thankful the Windows survived.
Firefighters concentrated on keeping the stained glass windows cool...  
BMac : 4/16/2019 10:16 am : link
...by playing continuous water streams on them. Not miraculous, but just a hell of a good job by the fire fighters.
RE: Firefighters concentrated on keeping the stained glass windows cool...  
Eman11 : 4/16/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14388328 BMac said:
Quote:
...by playing continuous water streams on them. Not miraculous, but just a hell of a good job by the fire fighters.


No doubt a tremendous job by them but if that is how they were saved, I think it's miraculous considering what the firefighters were up against.
RE: How do you rebuild something...  
Jim in Fairfax : 4/16/2019 10:50 am : link
In comment 14387850 rmc3981 said:
Quote:
in this day and age that took hundreds of years to build in the first place? Given that Christianity is mostly dead in France, what are you rebuilding it for? For the iconic image it represents? You're certainly not rebuilding for Catholics. Mind you, I'm a Catholic and I'm not trying to be negative about this at all, I'm just asking the question.

In addition to the other arguments put forward, Iíd note that itís not a given that Christianity is mostly dead in France.
Jim. Exactly  
Bill2 : 4/16/2019 11:00 am : link
Especially outside of Paris and Marseilles.

Especially in response to changes to the composition of the population.

Belief systems tend to revive in the face of external shifts
I've never been there but  
RinR : 4/16/2019 11:17 am : link
Paris is on my bucket list.

We have been to St. Peter's Basilica. Cannot even imagine that catching fire.
beautiful building from what it looks like and i am pretty sure  
GMAN4LIFE : 4/16/2019 11:21 am : link
it does no justice as in person its prob better. Such a historic piece of art.

but in the end, thank god no one died. I think we need to all remember that in the end, its just a building. A beautiful historic building but just a building.


they will fix it
RE: Unbelievable photos...  
regulator : 4/16/2019 11:47 am : link
In comment 14388251 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
thanks for sharing. It actually looks like CANDLES near the altar survived inside. Could anyone comment on the likelihood of that? Seems impossible.

Any word on human injuries/casualties? I haven't heard anything yet and it's too bad that for many it appears that is a secondary thought to the structure itself.

Hoping for the best all around.


The active fire involved a wooden roof structure resting on top of the stone vault above the nave of the church (which is the 'roof' visible when standing in the church). The structure supported a pitched roof and known as "The Forest" due its timber construction dating back centuries. The spire was attached to, and rose above the roof, and because of its construction (wood and lead) became structurally unsound during the fire and collapsed. The debris from the collapsed spire is likely what compromised the vault.

There was small rose windows at the end of the Forest structure above each side of the transept, above the 'main' rose windows; these were predictably blown out during the fire and had historical value in and of themselves, but were not nearly as well-known as the large windows directly below. I think some of the (rather haunting) images of the blown-out upper windows silhouetted against the inferno caused many to mistakenly believe the more famous rose windows visible from inside the church had been destroyed.

The fact is, the old, dried-out nature of the hardwood roof caused a rapidly-intensifying, smoky fire, but the fire did not spread in any substantial part to the interior of the church, because of the stone vault which acted essentially as a firewall. The fire was mostly isolated to the roof structure which sat above, and separate from, the rest of the church.

So, where the vault failed, debris came down and started a fire, but the fire either did not spread to the rest of the church interior or was quickly extinguished. This, combined with efforts to preserve the windows (controlling heat with water spray) led to their survival. Moreover, we cannot discount the efforts of those who risked danger to move some of the priceless artifacts out of the church while the fire was underway, as there was no way to be certain that the structure wasn't in danger of imminent collapse. The artifacts could have easily been damaged or destroyed by the smoke/water which appears to be a chief concern inside of the church.
I'm sorry the thread turned ugly and that Eric and the moderators  
Ira : 4/16/2019 11:48 am : link
have to deal with that kind of thing. The reports I've read indicate that there's no evidence of sabotage. Wealthy Frenchmen and French companies have pledged hundreds of millions toward rebuilding it. Firefighters are trying to keep the stained glass cool with water. In England, Westminster Abbey's bells have been ringing in solidarity with the French.
I really miss those great threads we used to have  
Jay in Toronto : 4/16/2019 12:01 pm : link
on politics, religion etc. Often quite interesting and intelligent.

What is a real pity is the fact that we can't discuss where football and social issues intersect e.g. Black Lives Matter leading to the kneeling etc.

I know that judgement calls are not easy on substance. But there is one criterion that is easy IMO: no tolerance policy for
ad hominems.

Much easier to enforce:

I disagree with your position (hopefully, because....)

vs

What an asshole you are ....


I would enforce this for all threads, btw.

RE: RE: Firefighters concentrated on keeping the stained glass windows cool...  
Jay in Toronto : 4/16/2019 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14388335 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14388328 BMac said:


Quote:


...by playing continuous water streams on them. Not miraculous, but just a hell of a good job by the fire fighters.



No doubt a tremendous job by them but if that is how they were saved, I think it's miraculous considering what the firefighters were up against.


In so many ways (in a way, unfortunately), first responders are becoming the heroes of the 21st Century.
You can archive any thread before it gets deleted.  
madgiantscow009 : 4/16/2019 1:59 pm : link
https://archive.fo/UQoqj

it takes about 4 seconds.

Anybody could do it, but mods know when something is about to get deleted. I wouldn't recommend it for a short obviously doomed thread, but when a page gets 100-200 or more comments and gets deleted it punishes everyone.

type in archive.is
copy the url on top of the bigblueinteractive.com or any page.
Paste it at the top of the archive.is page and it's done.

I am amazed at the pictures  
section125 : 4/16/2019 2:09 pm : link
of the interior. Pews still intact; previous day candles were still burning; aside from rubble in the middle and smoke damage high up, it looks much better than I could have believed. Hard to believe it could look that good with the amount of fire that was there.
I started a thread on Assange the other day  
JonC : 4/16/2019 2:13 pm : link
seems it was deleted too. Some here will find a way to be idiots.

This is why we can't have nice things.
Possibly the reactions are part of the problem  
idiotsavant : 4/16/2019 3:06 pm : link
I mean, just ignore the baiting comments and move forward. Obviously personal attacks and 'gate keeping' only spiral things out of context even more.

I saw the baiting comments and just skimmed over those.

Why the need to point out to a rabble rouser that they are rabble rousing?

It's almost as obnoxious.

Also I agree. It's valuable to us in some weird way, but the quick draw pull thread is over used.
RE: I am amazed at the pictures  
regulator : 4/16/2019 3:36 pm : link
In comment 14388740 section125 said:
Quote:
of the interior. Pews still intact; previous day candles were still burning; aside from rubble in the middle and smoke damage high up, it looks much better than I could have believed. Hard to believe it could look that good with the amount of fire that was there.


The fire wasn't actually in the church, it was in what was more or less a separate (albeit massive) structure on top of the church, with a few comparatively small sections which caved in when the spire fell.

The raging inferno was always outside of the church on top of it. It's incredible, but not very surprising given the type of construction.
Wow  
idiotsavant : 4/16/2019 4:00 pm : link
Those olden time folks knew their stuff!
RE: RE: I am amazed at the pictures  
Eman11 : 4/16/2019 4:26 pm : link
In comment 14388918 regulator said:
Quote:
In comment 14388740 section125 said:


Quote:


of the interior. Pews still intact; previous day candles were still burning; aside from rubble in the middle and smoke damage high up, it looks much better than I could have believed. Hard to believe it could look that good with the amount of fire that was there.



The fire wasn't actually in the church, it was in what was more or less a separate (albeit massive) structure on top of the church, with a few comparatively small sections which caved in when the spire fell.

The raging inferno was always outside of the church on top of it. It's incredible, but not very surprising given the type of construction.


Wow. Thanks for the input.

Judging by the aerial pic from above Eric posted on page 1, I thought for sure the fire was inside and not outside on top.

Appreciate the info you've posted.
This fire could be  
DC Gmen Fan : 4/16/2019 4:43 pm : link
a blessing in disguise. With the major artifacts spared, as well as the main structure, this is an opportunity to rebuild the weaker parts of the church to today's safety codes. Imagine had the roof collapsed one day due to fatigue during a packed mass. Instead, with the death toll at zero, and the treasures spared, 500 years from now hopefully the fire will be but a footnote in the Cathedral's history.
RE: This fire could be  
regulator : 4/16/2019 5:02 pm : link
In comment 14389014 DC Gmen Fan said:
Quote:
a blessing in disguise. With the major artifacts spared, as well as the main structure, this is an opportunity to rebuild the weaker parts of the church to today's safety codes. Imagine had the roof collapsed one day due to fatigue during a packed mass. Instead, with the death toll at zero, and the treasures spared, 500 years from now hopefully the fire will be but a footnote in the Cathedral's history.


I'm sure there will be additional restorative measures taken to harden against future fire risk and ensure structural integrity for generations to come.

But what is so remarkable for me, even centuries later, is that the building (and its design) remained structurally sound during 15 hours of active fire, and even after the 250t spire crashed through the roof. Incredible.

250 tons... to put that in perspective, basically a 787 at max takeoff weight. Insane!!
Excellent article in arstechnica about Notre Dame  
JohnF : 4/16/2019 5:53 pm : link
Notre Dame Cathedral will never be the same, but it can be rebuilt

Though the premise that there's a digital copy of the building may be inaccurate, based on the comments. Amazingly, the Cathedral has undergone many, many changes over the years, and much of the damage was to renovations done in the 1870's!

Quote:
The recent fire is the worst damage Notre Dame has suffered so far in its history, but it's not the first: the cathedral has an 800-year history of remodeling, damage, and rebuilding. Its life is an order of magnitude longer than ours, and in a couple of centuries, the tragedy of today's fire may be another part of the long story woven into the building's fabric.

Louis XIV and Louis XV had it drastically remodeled in the 17th and 18th centuries. In 1786, architects removed the original spire after centuries of wind had weakened its oak frame. During the French Revolution, revolutionary forces destroyed most of the statuary, and the cathedral was rededicated to the atheist Cult of Reason and the deist Cult of the Supreme Being (a pet project of Maximilien Robespierre). Napoleon returned the cathedral to the Roman Catholic Church after his rise to power in 1801, but 30 years later, Notre Dame had fallen into disrepair, and many Parisians regarded it as a crumbling old eyesore.

But The Hunchback of Notre Dame transformed the sorely neglected cathedral into a beloved Paris landmark again. It launched Lassus and Viollet-le-Duc's 25-year process of restoration, which included reconstructing the spire that collapsed in the April 15 fire.
Trades of that sort, in the service of faith  
idiotsavant : 4/16/2019 7:37 pm : link
Can be a form of meditation, even prayer, for those many who might perform them.

Here's to hoping they don't just turn the rebuild into a rushed cash boondoggle with just the contemporary power-tool (as much as I love and respect those also) crank-it-out methods.
.  
pjcas18 : 4/17/2019 1:10 pm : link
Quote:

Eduard Habsburg
‏ @EduardHabsburg

This may be the right occasion to post the earliest known photograph of Notre Dame from 1838. Photography was barely invented


RE: RE: Terrible Loss for Paris and France  
Percy : 4/19/2019 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14387883 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 14387868 Percy said:


Quote:


And for all of Western civilization actually.

I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?



How can you say exactly what fire fighting capability was brought to bear?

Can't, of course, Just looked that way to me on TV and it's not as if there wasn't enough coverage or that what was being used to fight it was hidden or being ignored.
RE: It's a huge symbol of changes in Western Civilization  
Percy : 4/19/2019 12:09 pm : link
In comment 14388159 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Its the most significant non government forces undertaking up to that time.

Think about it. Up to then only states could collect capital and build things that large over that many years.

It memorializes the rise of craftsman ( the beginning of the professional and middle class). It marks power moving away from the capital center of Rome. I marks the contributions of many people moving voluntarily instead of a few people by force.

It marked people talking other people into significant "movement" over generations instead of the only other lever at the time...force.

It marked non state belief systems into actions.

It's a initial symbol of the movement to tension and then balance between state, religion and individuals that played out over centuries through the Rennisance and finally to the Enlightenment based revolutions.

It was a marker on the road of the power shift from the Mediterranean to the North Sea that still dominates Europe.

It was a symbol, if understood, of a lot more than catholicism.

imo


True. Excellent remark.
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