and keep the thread? There are always idiots who will post something stupid. Eliminating a worthwhile thread because of it seems like too extreme a response.
And yes, I am not surprised that someone found the controversial view to a beautiful, historic building burning down.
Also, I started receiving e-mail complaints about it.
Sorry.
Not your fault. There were some great photos that I wanted to return to. Insane that a burning cathedral/work of art/loss of a piece of human history would be a problem thread. pretty pathetic actually.
and keep the thread? There are always idiots who will post something stupid. Eliminating a worthwhile thread because of it seems like too extreme a response.
And yes, I am not surprised that someone found the controversial view to a beautiful, historic building burning down.
Too labor intensive. Again, the same points would have been raised later.
We can no longer have current events discussions on BBI. It inevitably becomes a free speech vs. hate speech shitfest and a no-win situation for moderators.
I saw this French girl who looked -exactly - like my cousin and aunt. In a spooky way. I was with the baby mama at the time so I said nothing.
Years later I learned that my grandfather had a French wife during his WW1 service. Maybe it was my cousin. I had had a very spooky feeling at that moment.
Special place, Notre Dame, where occurrences like that are in the hundreds of thousands over the years.
and keep the thread? There are always idiots who will post something stupid. Eliminating a worthwhile thread because of it seems like too extreme a response.
And yes, I am not surprised that someone found the controversial view to a beautiful, historic building burning down.
Too labor intensive. Again, the same points would have been raised later.
We can no longer have current events discussions on BBI. It inevitably becomes a free speech vs. hate speech shitfest and a no-win situation for moderators.
i see the mods here take things down every time there is a hint of of criticism of right wing politics. most of us know the political orientation of the site. you should just let everything stand except the most egregious instances. just my opinion
Devastating that it would burn down. What a tragic loss. A monument to human endeavor. Unbelievable that they were able to build such a magnificent structure with only labor power and no steam or electric powered tools.
Also, I started receiving e-mail complaints about it.
Sorry.
Once you started reacting to complaints you may have indirectly motivated and invited even more.
Steve, we've tried numerous options. It's a no-win situation for us to allow any of these discussions. Sad, but it is what it is.
It always has surprised me, and still does, how so many adults e-mail you with complaints about posts on a message board. How do they get through their days when navigating through life? Always has been a head scratcher for me.
Fire has spread to one of the towers and they are hoping they can stop it from spreading to the other tower. Probably an impossible job to stop fire spreading in a massive 700 year old building.
Fire has spread to one of the towers and they are hoping they can stop it from spreading to the other tower. Probably an impossible job to stop fire spreading in a massive 700 year old building.
Not just that. They are saying on the news that the church was nicknamed the Forest because they used 56 acres of timber on the inside. I can only imagine how flammable timber is that has been drying for 900+ years.
It probably took several treasuries and many conquests to build it in the first place.. even if they could do it now, it would be highly irresponsible. Best they could do is some sort of modern homage.
The plan will be to rebuild, I know it will never be the same. I just hope the priceless art pieces and stone facade are spared
I've heard a couple reports that as soon as the fire started there was a mad dash to get as much artwork out as they could. How much and what they saved I have no idea but hopefully they saved some of the important pieces.
It probably took several treasuries and many conquests to build it in the first place.. even if they could do it now, it would be highly irresponsible. Best they could do is some sort of modern homage.
Why would it be irresponsible? Cathedrals have burned down in Europe before and been rebuilt.
account of the dude who started the downward spiral. Like, come on. No repercussions for firebombing a threat?///
It's not the first time he's tried to steer a thread in that direction, either. Must be something in the water in Marin County.
Gatorade, that is exactly who stuck out like an ugly, hateful, inciter to me, too.
It probably took several treasuries and many conquests to build it in the first place.. even if they could do it now, it would be highly irresponsible. Best they could do is some sort of modern homage.
Why would it be irresponsible? Cathedrals have burned down in Europe before and been rebuilt.
it would take all of the money France has in the bank and then some to replicate.
Place if a long project to rebuild using the old methods starts.
Those are jobs, but much more than jobs, it's almost the opposite yo how we view 'work' today.
So, alongside the usual models and the bankers and the Ubers, you would have hundreds of hand stone mason's, hand carpenters, glaziers, painters both art and commercial, scultpers, weaver's, welders, and so forth, filling the bistros every night
also, "big brother" advertisers such as Google now regularly send me "violation" warnings about inappropriate threads (usually because of quasi-sexual content).
That image shows, amazingly, that as of this moment, the stone ceiling (vault) hasn't failed.
It would truly be remarkable if the interior of the cathedral is spared.
the interior is already gone. i think they are just trying to save the structure now.
I'm not certain of that, though I don't doubt there is significant damage. The "vault" is a stone structure below the roof (which was wood) and that does not appear to have failed. It forms the roof of the cathedral, above the nave, that one can see on the inside. The pitched wooden structure has burned and collapsed away but the vault seems to be holding. If that collapses, the structural integrity of the entire building will be compromised. That creates great risk of the walls collapsing inward, and the towers coming down after that. Hopefully it holds... we'll see.
also, "big brother" advertisers such as Google now regularly send me "violation" warnings about inappropriate threads (usually because of quasi-sexual content).
That was just because you left up that thread that clearly showed jlaws thumbs
one or two others. Notre Dame, despite not being the biggest, is/was a sight to behold. What a monumental loss. Wasnt it almost bombed by a German soldier, who decided against it at the last second? Now this, tragic.
one or two others. Notre Dame, despite not being the biggest, is/was a sight to behold. What a monumental loss. Wasnt it almost bombed by a German soldier, who decided against it at the last second? Now this, tragic.
Hitler ordered Paris destroyed. The commanding German general (Dietrich von Choltitz) disobeyed him.
For everything this piece of history has survived for close to a 1000 yrs and a fire in the attic (cause unknown) caused this. Thankfully, the courageous firefighters have saved the structure and the iconic bell towers which is a miracle.
For everything this piece of history has survived for close to a 1000 yrs and a fire in the attic (cause unknown) caused this. Thankfully, the courageous firefighters have saved the structure and the iconic bell towers which is a miracle.
The stained glass has all got to be gone. That is irreplaceable.
RE: RE: Ive seen most of Europes biggest cathedrals, except Cologne, maybe
one or two others. Notre Dame, despite not being the biggest, is/was a sight to behold. What a monumental loss....
Jim, have been to and inside the cathedrals in Cologne and (many times) ND de Paris, and Cologne while spectacular in its own right, didn't hold a candle to ND, imo.
That also might be cost effective...retractable glass roof. How beautiful would a sunlit Easter mass or a snow fallen Xmas Eve mass be? Even if it wasnt snowing, the caroling could be heard throughout the streets if it was clear.
All of this is dependent on the frame though. It is impossible to recreate the building. But making it serviceable again in a way that reflects modern structures could be a wonderful breath of life to whats left.
Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Why? How the fuck is a PM of a major power asking for massive amounts of funding from other countries to rebuild a 12th century cathedral almost entirely akin to suggesting that they are happy it went down because now they can build a mosque in its place?
Im not making it political dipshit. You are. Europe is HURTING financially right now and now he wants them to pay for a rebuild?
Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Why? How the fuck is a PM of a major power asking for massive amounts of funding from other countries to rebuild a 12th century cathedral almost entirely akin to suggesting that they are happy it went down because now they can build a mosque in its place?
Im not making it political dipshit. You are. Europe is HURTING financially right now and now he wants them to pay for a rebuild?
Gfy kenny
Your lack of self awareness is breathtaking. Jesus Christ.
Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Why? How the fuck is a PM of a major power asking for massive amounts of funding from other countries to rebuild a 12th century cathedral almost entirely akin to suggesting that they are happy it went down because now they can build a mosque in its place?
Im not making it political dipshit. You are. Europe is HURTING financially right now and now he wants them to pay for a rebuild?
Gfy kenny
What part of "political threads aren't allowed" do you not understand??? What is so confusing about that policy? We're talking about the disaster/tragedy of one on the most iconic buildings/works of art on the planet and you need to chime in with something political. The PM is trying to comfort the people of France, that's all. We have absolutely no clue about the state of the structer at this point. How about you save your vitriol until the fire is actually put out. Jackass
Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Why? How the fuck is a PM of a major power asking for massive amounts of funding from other countries to rebuild a 12th century cathedral almost entirely akin to suggesting that they are happy it went down because now they can build a mosque in its place?
Im not making it political dipshit. You are. Europe is HURTING financially right now and now he wants them to pay for a rebuild?
Gfy kenny
What part of "political threads aren't allowed" do you not understand??? What is so confusing about that policy? We're talking about the disaster/tragedy of one on the most iconic buildings/works of art on the planet and you need to chime in with something political. The PM is trying to comfort the people of France, that's all. We have absolutely no clue about the state of the structer at this point. How about you save your vitriol until the fire is actually put out. Jackass
wow from the sounds of the last thread it must have been awesome. I'd have gotten popcorn and watched that one all day.. people actually said all that shit... hahah
Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Registered April 2019.
So that is an indictment on me for just deciding to sign up when Hswilek registered a year ago and kenny did a year before that? Outrageous.
My comment was targeted toward the fiscal irresponsibility of asking for help in rebuilding the thing and I guess thats too much to handle.
ehhh.. let it go .. this is nowhere as interesting as someone shouting liberals want to build a mosque there are whatever it was that took that thread off the rails.. wow so sorry i missed that. sounds super entertaining.
I think the fiscal irresponsibility thing has merit
But it may not be the right time to have a prolonged discussion. But you threw something else in there gratuitously and that was highly inappropriate
This is fair Bill. Knee jerk reaction to the news he was pursuing that.
Sorry for the dust up. I hate seeing threads getting devoured by politics and vitriol. I have family in Belgium as well as Germany and I was annoyed. Again, carry on.
A few sections of the vault have collapsed, but it appears to be
mostly intact, and the interior is definitely not a total loss. I suspect much of the stained class has survived, too. Pretty miraculous, IMO.
Wow...looks a lot better than I thought it would. I think the major question is in how much of that stone was supported by the wood that was burned away.
I am assuming the fire is completely extinguished?
it's a miracle, but I will be shocked if the stained glass is intact.
I agree with that. The heat from that blaze would have surely caused the lead pieces holding the glass in place to melt and leaving nothing to hold them in place. If that somehow held, the stress caused by the immense heat would've caused the glass to break and fall. Either way, the chances any of the stained glass survived are slim at best IMO.
It would truly be a miracle if any of it made it through that blaze based on the the pics/video I saw.
it's a miracle, but I will be shocked if the stained glass is intact.
The stained glass windows in the pitched roof structure are total losses, sadly, but I believe we'll soon hear that the stained glass windows in the main part of the church (including the iconic north rose window) will have been substantially spared.
The vault essentially acted as a firewall against the blaze of the roof structure above, saving the church below from total destruction. As the wooden roof burned, it shed much of its weight, so the vault, which is self-supporting, likely came under a reduced load. It's also made of stone, which was more resistant to thermal exposure than other building materials.
The center part of the vault that collapsed into the church likely came down with the main spire, which was reportedly 250 tons of lead and oak.
If you look at some of the images, the wooden pews in the foreground (north side) appear to be undamaged. That bodes well for the stained glass of the north rose window and the organ.
the vaults of the side aisles remained largely intact, but those of the nave are in bad shape. All of the 13th-century wooden supports are gone and the remaining stone is water-logged = very heavy nave vaults with nothing up there to hold them. It's got to be precarious.
My understanding is that the rose windows in the north and south transepts are gone, and that the apsidal windows are probably shot as well. The west wall should be okay, though. The lancet windows in the side walls probably didn't fare well, as the lead used for each of the separate panes is prone to liquify in high temperatures. Once that goes, the glass follows.
A lot of what perished was part of the 19th century reconstruction by Viollet le Duc, but the windows and wood date back 800 years.
The small rose windows in the roof structure are gone
these are the ones through which fire can be observed, but these are not the windows visible from inside the church. Some tweets appearing now show many of the windows remain intact. This is good news. twitter video - ( New Window )
Stained glass windows (incredibly breathtaking when I was there in Nov) are virtually gone and the entire roof structure called the forest made of 12 century oak is gone as well. The rest while suffering extensive damage is salvageable which is a miracle. God bless those 400 firefighters, they did some job!!
in this day and age that took hundreds of years to build in the first place? Given that Christianity is mostly dead in France, what are you rebuilding it for? For the iconic image it represents? You're certainly not rebuilding for Catholics. Mind you, I'm a Catholic and I'm not trying to be negative about this at all, I'm just asking the question.
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
there was a major fire in a European apartment complex a little while ago with the same questions--it had a faulty or outdated fire sprinkler system. I hope these are outliers and not going to happen in the future.
I was googling stained glass online and it seems pretty doable as a weekend project. Would be a good way to make a nice stained glass tribute or skyline things to that nature).
The cathedral is on a relatively small island and is surrounded by people and other buildings. It had to be difficult just to get fire trucks there in a timely fashion. Massive old building with a wooden roof burning on a windy day, what can you expect? Also as stated before it sounds like the roof was out of range for hoses on the ground anyway and they would have had to go up into the building to get water on it which would be fucking insane in an old building like that considering they didnt have anyone to rescue up there.
Its an unfortunate accident but I have to imagine the contingency plan for fire at Notre Dame was dont let it catch fire.
Nobody was killed thankfully. From what I read it was open when the fire started and people were still on line to get in, must have been some even of panic. If memory serves it wouldnt be an easy building for a big crowd to pour out of in an orderly fashion.
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
How can you say exactly what fire fighting capability was brought to bear?
said that if old churches and cathedrals were not houses of worship they would be condemned. The way they are built just lends themselves to going up in flames...
Was there a few months ago. Its a devastating loss.
The structure may be rebuilt, but much of the history of its 850 years is lost forever. Its heartbreaking to see so many Parisians sobbing as they watched their history burn. One was quoted as saying Its like watching a friend die.
Im so saddened by this. I plan on making a donation to the recovery effort.
Why aren't historic buildings like this retro fitted with modern fire suppression/sprinkler systems? Yes, that would be expensive, but the cost would be a fraction of what a re-build would take.
Here's an article from BuildingConservation.com going over this very issue!!:
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
Interesting read I came across on twitter of the opinions of someone at least qualified. I come from a family of Newark firemen so plan on asking about their opinions this Sunday at Easter. Link - ( New Window )
Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. Long book but one of the best I've read.
Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.
My wife and I originally bonded over our shared love of this book. We even talked about it tonight in regards to the attempts to save the relics from the fire in that story and what must have been going on in Notre Dame as the fire broke out.
in this day and age that took hundreds of years to build in the first place? Given that Christianity is mostly dead in France, what are you rebuilding it for? For the iconic image it represents? You're certainly not rebuilding for Catholics. Mind you, I'm a Catholic and I'm not trying to be negative about this at all, I'm just asking the question.
You are rebuilding it cause it is the most visited landmark in France ahead of the Eiffel tower. You are rebuilding it cause it building that defined Paris. You are hung up on the religious aspect of it. Notre Dame meant waaaay more than that to Paris and France. It was an achievement of their culture.
Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. Long book but one of the best I've read.
Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.
On topic, you might like Medici: The Magnificent on Netflix. GOT-esque / middle ages, 1st season is mostly about the people & city during the construction of the dome of the cathedral in Florence. Also GOT-esque in that Sean Bean & Richard Madden are in it. It's at least somewhat historically accurate on my cursory look online (names and broad strokes anyway). Decent overall
in this day and age that took hundreds of years to build in the first place? Given that Christianity is mostly dead in France, what are you rebuilding it for? For the iconic image it represents? You're certainly not rebuilding for Catholics. Mind you, I'm a Catholic and I'm not trying to be negative about this at all, I'm just asking the question.
The Cathedral holds 2,000 masses per year. People come from all over the world to not only see the Cathedral, but also to worship along with French Catholics.
Archbishop of Paris confirms all three major rose windows survived, along with the bells, organ and the most culturally and religiously significant pieces of the collection. They are still taking inventory, and theres a lot of smoke/water damage, but it would appear the vault indeed functioned to save the vast majority of the churchs interior from the fire above. Miraculous - ( New Window )
It's a huge symbol of changes in Western Civilization
Its the most significant non government forces undertaking up to that time.
Think about it. Up to then only states could collect capital and build things that large over that many years.
It memorializes the rise of craftsman ( the beginning of the professional and middle class). It marks power moving away from the capital center of Rome. I marks the contributions of many people moving voluntarily instead of a few people by force.
It marked people talking other people into significant "movement" over generations instead of the only other lever at the time...force.
It marked non state belief systems into actions.
It's a initial symbol of the movement to tension and then balance between state, religion and individuals that played out over centuries through the Rennisance and finally to the Enlightenment based revolutions.
It was a marker on the road of the power shift from the Mediterranean to the North Sea that still dominates Europe.
It was a symbol, if understood, of a lot more than catholicism.
Line took over 45 minutes to get in. What stuck out(beside the cathedral) was people with their roller suitcases visiting - but that is seen all over Europe.
French firefighters are on par with the best in the world, but the Paris fire trucks seem exceedingly small, at least the ones I saw while visiting. Tiny streets, unbelievable traffic.
Great to see the Rose window was saved - how that happened with those flames is unreal.
I think the funding to restore will be easily covered by donations - just saw $300 mill from European billionaires pledged already.
thanks for sharing. It actually looks like CANDLES near the altar survived inside. Could anyone comment on the likelihood of that? Seems impossible.
Any word on human injuries/casualties? I haven't heard anything yet and it's too bad that for many it appears that is a secondary thought to the structure itself.
Archbishop of Paris confirms all three major rose windows survived, along with the bells, organ and the most culturally and religiously significant pieces of the collection. They are still taking inventory, and theres a lot of smoke/water damage, but it would appear the vault indeed functioned to save the vast majority of the churchs interior from the fire above. Miraculous - ( New Window )
Miraculous indeed. I'm just amazed and thankful the Windows survived.
Firefighters concentrated on keeping the stained glass windows cool...
in this day and age that took hundreds of years to build in the first place? Given that Christianity is mostly dead in France, what are you rebuilding it for? For the iconic image it represents? You're certainly not rebuilding for Catholics. Mind you, I'm a Catholic and I'm not trying to be negative about this at all, I'm just asking the question.
In addition to the other arguments put forward, Id note that its not a given that Christianity is mostly dead in France.
it does no justice as in person its prob better. Such a historic piece of art.
but in the end, thank god no one died. I think we need to all remember that in the end, its just a building. A beautiful historic building but just a building.
thanks for sharing. It actually looks like CANDLES near the altar survived inside. Could anyone comment on the likelihood of that? Seems impossible.
Any word on human injuries/casualties? I haven't heard anything yet and it's too bad that for many it appears that is a secondary thought to the structure itself.
Hoping for the best all around.
The active fire involved a wooden roof structure resting on top of the stone vault above the nave of the church (which is the 'roof' visible when standing in the church). The structure supported a pitched roof and known as "The Forest" due its timber construction dating back centuries. The spire was attached to, and rose above the roof, and because of its construction (wood and lead) became structurally unsound during the fire and collapsed. The debris from the collapsed spire is likely what compromised the vault.
There was small rose windows at the end of the Forest structure above each side of the transept, above the 'main' rose windows; these were predictably blown out during the fire and had historical value in and of themselves, but were not nearly as well-known as the large windows directly below. I think some of the (rather haunting) images of the blown-out upper windows silhouetted against the inferno caused many to mistakenly believe the more famous rose windows visible from inside the church had been destroyed.
The fact is, the old, dried-out nature of the hardwood roof caused a rapidly-intensifying, smoky fire, but the fire did not spread in any substantial part to the interior of the church, because of the stone vault which acted essentially as a firewall. The fire was mostly isolated to the roof structure which sat above, and separate from, the rest of the church.
So, where the vault failed, debris came down and started a fire, but the fire either did not spread to the rest of the church interior or was quickly extinguished. This, combined with efforts to preserve the windows (controlling heat with water spray) led to their survival. Moreover, we cannot discount the efforts of those who risked danger to move some of the priceless artifacts out of the church while the fire was underway, as there was no way to be certain that the structure wasn't in danger of imminent collapse. The artifacts could have easily been damaged or destroyed by the smoke/water which appears to be a chief concern inside of the church.
I'm sorry the thread turned ugly and that Eric and the moderators
have to deal with that kind of thing. The reports I've read indicate that there's no evidence of sabotage. Wealthy Frenchmen and French companies have pledged hundreds of millions toward rebuilding it. Firefighters are trying to keep the stained glass cool with water. In England, Westminster Abbey's bells have been ringing in solidarity with the French.
Anybody could do it, but mods know when something is about to get deleted. I wouldn't recommend it for a short obviously doomed thread, but when a page gets 100-200 or more comments and gets deleted it punishes everyone.
type in archive.is
copy the url on top of the bigblueinteractive.com or any page.
Paste it at the top of the archive.is page and it's done.
of the interior. Pews still intact; previous day candles were still burning; aside from rubble in the middle and smoke damage high up, it looks much better than I could have believed. Hard to believe it could look that good with the amount of fire that was there.
of the interior. Pews still intact; previous day candles were still burning; aside from rubble in the middle and smoke damage high up, it looks much better than I could have believed. Hard to believe it could look that good with the amount of fire that was there.
The fire wasn't actually in the church, it was in what was more or less a separate (albeit massive) structure on top of the church, with a few comparatively small sections which caved in when the spire fell.
The raging inferno was always outside of the church on top of it. It's incredible, but not very surprising given the type of construction.
of the interior. Pews still intact; previous day candles were still burning; aside from rubble in the middle and smoke damage high up, it looks much better than I could have believed. Hard to believe it could look that good with the amount of fire that was there.
The fire wasn't actually in the church, it was in what was more or less a separate (albeit massive) structure on top of the church, with a few comparatively small sections which caved in when the spire fell.
The raging inferno was always outside of the church on top of it. It's incredible, but not very surprising given the type of construction.
Wow. Thanks for the input.
Judging by the aerial pic from above Eric posted on page 1, I thought for sure the fire was inside and not outside on top.
a blessing in disguise. With the major artifacts spared, as well as the main structure, this is an opportunity to rebuild the weaker parts of the church to today's safety codes. Imagine had the roof collapsed one day due to fatigue during a packed mass. Instead, with the death toll at zero, and the treasures spared, 500 years from now hopefully the fire will be but a footnote in the Cathedral's history.
a blessing in disguise. With the major artifacts spared, as well as the main structure, this is an opportunity to rebuild the weaker parts of the church to today's safety codes. Imagine had the roof collapsed one day due to fatigue during a packed mass. Instead, with the death toll at zero, and the treasures spared, 500 years from now hopefully the fire will be but a footnote in the Cathedral's history.
I'm sure there will be additional restorative measures taken to harden against future fire risk and ensure structural integrity for generations to come.
But what is so remarkable for me, even centuries later, is that the building (and its design) remained structurally sound during 15 hours of active fire, and even after the 250t spire crashed through the roof. Incredible.
250 tons... to put that in perspective, basically a 787 at max takeoff weight. Insane!!
Though the premise that there's a digital copy of the building may be inaccurate, based on the comments. Amazingly, the Cathedral has undergone many, many changes over the years, and much of the damage was to renovations done in the 1870's!
Quote:
The recent fire is the worst damage Notre Dame has suffered so far in its history, but it's not the first: the cathedral has an 800-year history of remodeling, damage, and rebuilding. Its life is an order of magnitude longer than ours, and in a couple of centuries, the tragedy of today's fire may be another part of the long story woven into the building's fabric.
Louis XIV and Louis XV had it drastically remodeled in the 17th and 18th centuries. In 1786, architects removed the original spire after centuries of wind had weakened its oak frame. During the French Revolution, revolutionary forces destroyed most of the statuary, and the cathedral was rededicated to the atheist Cult of Reason and the deist Cult of the Supreme Being (a pet project of Maximilien Robespierre). Napoleon returned the cathedral to the Roman Catholic Church after his rise to power in 1801, but 30 years later, Notre Dame had fallen into disrepair, and many Parisians regarded it as a crumbling old eyesore.
But The Hunchback of Notre Dame transformed the sorely neglected cathedral into a beloved Paris landmark again. It launched Lassus and Viollet-le-Duc's 25-year process of restoration, which included reconstructing the spire that collapsed in the April 15 fire.
Can be a form of meditation, even prayer, for those many who might perform them.
Here's to hoping they don't just turn the rebuild into a rushed cash boondoggle with just the contemporary power-tool (as much as I love and respect those also) crank-it-out methods.
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
How can you say exactly what fire fighting capability was brought to bear?
Can't, of course, Just looked that way to me on TV and it's not as if there wasn't enough coverage or that what was being used to fight it was hidden or being ignored.
RE: It's a huge symbol of changes in Western Civilization
Its the most significant non government forces undertaking up to that time.
Think about it. Up to then only states could collect capital and build things that large over that many years.
It memorializes the rise of craftsman ( the beginning of the professional and middle class). It marks power moving away from the capital center of Rome. I marks the contributions of many people moving voluntarily instead of a few people by force.
It marked people talking other people into significant "movement" over generations instead of the only other lever at the time...force.
It marked non state belief systems into actions.
It's a initial symbol of the movement to tension and then balance between state, religion and individuals that played out over centuries through the Rennisance and finally to the Enlightenment based revolutions.
It was a marker on the road of the power shift from the Mediterranean to the North Sea that still dominates Europe.
It was a symbol, if understood, of a lot more than catholicism.
I guess I shouldn't ask with some of the yahoos on here interjecting religion/politics, but a burning cathedral thread??
Also, I started receiving e-mail complaints about it.
Sorry.
Too labor intensive. It would have quickly turned ugly again.
And yes, I am not surprised that someone found the controversial view to a beautiful, historic building burning down.
Also, I started receiving e-mail complaints about it.
Sorry.
Not your fault. There were some great photos that I wanted to return to. Insane that a burning cathedral/work of art/loss of a piece of human history would be a problem thread. pretty pathetic actually.
Also, I started receiving e-mail complaints about it.
Sorry.
Once you started reacting to complaints you may have indirectly motivated and invited even more.
And yes, I am not surprised that someone found the controversial view to a beautiful, historic building burning down.
Too labor intensive. Again, the same points would have been raised later.
We can no longer have current events discussions on BBI. It inevitably becomes a free speech vs. hate speech shitfest and a no-win situation for moderators.
Years later I learned that my grandfather had a French wife during his WW1 service. Maybe it was my cousin. I had had a very spooky feeling at that moment.
Special place, Notre Dame, where occurrences like that are in the hundreds of thousands over the years.
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30 minutes, came back, and it had turned ugly.
Also, I started receiving e-mail complaints about it.
Sorry.
Once you started reacting to complaints you may have indirectly motivated and invited even more.
Steve, we've tried numerous options. It's a no-win situation for us to allow any of these discussions. Sad, but it is what it is.
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and keep the thread? There are always idiots who will post something stupid. Eliminating a worthwhile thread because of it seems like too extreme a response.
And yes, I am not surprised that someone found the controversial view to a beautiful, historic building burning down.
Too labor intensive. Again, the same points would have been raised later.
We can no longer have current events discussions on BBI. It inevitably becomes a free speech vs. hate speech shitfest and a no-win situation for moderators.
i see the mods here take things down every time there is a hint of of criticism of right wing politics. most of us know the political orientation of the site. you should just let everything stand except the most egregious instances. just my opinion
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In comment 14387508 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
30 minutes, came back, and it had turned ugly.
Also, I started receiving e-mail complaints about it.
Sorry.
Once you started reacting to complaints you may have indirectly motivated and invited even more.
Steve, we've tried numerous options. It's a no-win situation for us to allow any of these discussions. Sad, but it is what it is.
It always has surprised me, and still does, how so many adults e-mail you with complaints about posts on a message board. How do they get through their days when navigating through life? Always has been a head scratcher for me.
I regularly get hate e-mail accusing me of being a Marxist and a Nazi.
Also, I started receiving e-mail complaints about it.
Sorry.
You have nothing to apologize for. I'm sure you're sad that you had to take it down.
Also, I started receiving e-mail complaints about it.
Sorry.
Lol who the heck emails you to complain? Thats insane to me...maybe I'm crazy.
Social media is a cesspool of human interaction.
I regularly get hate e-mail accusing me of being a Marxist and a Nazi.
Wow. I'm sorry you get email like that. That is awful.
but the building, which is the most important thing imo, is likely completely lost.
And I don't think I posted anything controversial, but we all have different definitions of the word.
But that wont happen sadly.
The knights and the saints.
The various types of Craftsmen who labored for 300 years to build it.
30O years of hand craft
Bakers, butchers, people getting married, baptisms ..thousands of all that, thousands of occurrences such as those over sooooo long.
The crown of thorns! Statuary...
This. But they are enabled by action.
It's not the first time he's tried to steer a thread in that direction, either. Must be something in the water in Marin County.
Trying to imagine a scenario that would've turned a church fire political... ah, now that I write it, I hear it. :)
WOW!
That image shows, amazingly, that as of this moment, the stone ceiling (vault) hasn't failed.
It would truly be remarkable if the interior of the cathedral is spared.
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That image shows, amazingly, that as of this moment, the stone ceiling (vault) hasn't failed.
It would truly be remarkable if the interior of the cathedral is spared.
the interior is already gone. i think they are just trying to save the structure now.
If any of the butresses are wood as well.
Calling all Craftsmen who work by hand!
Crazy
Or to rebuild.
I've heard a couple reports that as soon as the fire started there was a mad dash to get as much artwork out as they could. How much and what they saved I have no idea but hopefully they saved some of the important pieces.
Why would it be irresponsible? Cathedrals have burned down in Europe before and been rebuilt.
I regularly get hate e-mail accusing me of being a Marxist and a Nazi.
Ahh the true story of thats German comes out
Sad that people have to act like jackasses during a tragedy. Ill bet it was a 100% intentional
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account of the dude who started the downward spiral. Like, come on. No repercussions for firebombing a threat?///
It's not the first time he's tried to steer a thread in that direction, either. Must be something in the water in Marin County.
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It probably took several treasuries and many conquests to build it in the first place.. even if they could do it now, it would be highly irresponsible. Best they could do is some sort of modern homage.
Why would it be irresponsible? Cathedrals have burned down in Europe before and been rebuilt.
Once you started reacting to complaints you may have indirectly motivated and invited even more.
Steve, we've tried numerous options. It's a no-win situation for us to allow any of these discussions. Sad, but it is what it is.
I'm with Steve. Just ignore the complaints. What's the worry? Business? Losing advertisers and members?
The fact you and the moderators let the Dumb/Thin-skinners essentially control the content on BBI is a bit embarrassing.
I am seeing that stained glass may not have survived
Those are jobs, but much more than jobs, it's almost the opposite yo how we view 'work' today.
So, alongside the usual models and the bankers and the Ubers, you would have hundreds of hand stone mason's, hand carpenters, glaziers, painters both art and commercial, scultpers, weaver's, welders, and so forth, filling the bistros every night
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In comment 14387592 Eric from BBI said:
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That image shows, amazingly, that as of this moment, the stone ceiling (vault) hasn't failed.
It would truly be remarkable if the interior of the cathedral is spared.
the interior is already gone. i think they are just trying to save the structure now.
I'm not certain of that, though I don't doubt there is significant damage. The "vault" is a stone structure below the roof (which was wood) and that does not appear to have failed. It forms the roof of the cathedral, above the nave, that one can see on the inside. The pitched wooden structure has burned and collapsed away but the vault seems to be holding. If that collapses, the structural integrity of the entire building will be compromised. That creates great risk of the walls collapsing inward, and the towers coming down after that. Hopefully it holds... we'll see.
That was just because you left up that thread that clearly showed jlaws thumbs
I'll be in Paris in September. How tragic. How hard it is to accept the reality and the enormity of the loss.
I'll be in Paris in September. How tragic. How hard it is to accept the reality and the enormity of the loss.
Maybe you can go pay your respects to it and let us know how far along theyve come by then
Hitler ordered Paris destroyed. The commanding German general (Dietrich von Choltitz) disobeyed him.
If they can save the masonry walls and the two towers it will be possible to restore thd building
I predict your demise as a bbi contributor is nigh.
The stained glass has all got to be gone. That is irreplaceable.
You said "choltitz"...
...about Notre Dame turned ugly.
I mean, really?
Has all common sense and common decency gone by the board?
All of this is dependent on the frame though. It is impossible to recreate the building. But making it serviceable again in a way that reflects modern structures could be a wonderful breath of life to whats left.
Awesome. Fuck him.
Crazy
There is a lot in the scaffolding ... construction project...
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Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
That damn hunchback.
Not really. All I've heard is a suggestion that it was related to restoration work.
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In comment 14387723 Csonka said:
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Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Why? How the fuck is a PM of a major power asking for massive amounts of funding from other countries to rebuild a 12th century cathedral almost entirely akin to suggesting that they are happy it went down because now they can build a mosque in its place?
Im not making it political dipshit. You are. Europe is HURTING financially right now and now he wants them to pay for a rebuild?
Gfy kenny
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In comment 14387727 FrankieR said:
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In comment 14387723 Csonka said:
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Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Why? How the fuck is a PM of a major power asking for massive amounts of funding from other countries to rebuild a 12th century cathedral almost entirely akin to suggesting that they are happy it went down because now they can build a mosque in its place?
Im not making it political dipshit. You are. Europe is HURTING financially right now and now he wants them to pay for a rebuild?
Gfy kenny
Your lack of self awareness is breathtaking. Jesus Christ.
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In comment 14387727 FrankieR said:
Quote:
In comment 14387723 Csonka said:
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Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Why? How the fuck is a PM of a major power asking for massive amounts of funding from other countries to rebuild a 12th century cathedral almost entirely akin to suggesting that they are happy it went down because now they can build a mosque in its place?
Im not making it political dipshit. You are. Europe is HURTING financially right now and now he wants them to pay for a rebuild?
Gfy kenny
What part of "political threads aren't allowed" do you not understand??? What is so confusing about that policy? We're talking about the disaster/tragedy of one on the most iconic buildings/works of art on the planet and you need to chime in with something political. The PM is trying to comfort the people of France, that's all. We have absolutely no clue about the state of the structer at this point. How about you save your vitriol until the fire is actually put out. Jackass
Im going to blame Inspector Clouseau.
Im going to blame Inspector Clouseau.
Nah. Blame him if the Mona Lisa burns. Hes an officer of the Louvre.
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In comment 14387733 kennyd said:
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In comment 14387727 FrankieR said:
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In comment 14387723 Csonka said:
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Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Why? How the fuck is a PM of a major power asking for massive amounts of funding from other countries to rebuild a 12th century cathedral almost entirely akin to suggesting that they are happy it went down because now they can build a mosque in its place?
Im not making it political dipshit. You are. Europe is HURTING financially right now and now he wants them to pay for a rebuild?
Gfy kenny
What part of "political threads aren't allowed" do you not understand??? What is so confusing about that policy? We're talking about the disaster/tragedy of one on the most iconic buildings/works of art on the planet and you need to chime in with something political. The PM is trying to comfort the people of France, that's all. We have absolutely no clue about the state of the structer at this point. How about you save your vitriol until the fire is actually put out. Jackass
wow from the sounds of the last thread it must have been awesome. I'd have gotten popcorn and watched that one all day.. people actually said all that shit... hahah
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In comment 14387723 Csonka said:
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Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Registered April 2019.
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In comment 14387727 FrankieR said:
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In comment 14387723 Csonka said:
Quote:
Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Registered April 2019.
So that is an indictment on me for just deciding to sign up when Hswilek registered a year ago and kenny did a year before that? Outrageous.
My comment was targeted toward the fiscal irresponsibility of asking for help in rebuilding the thing and I guess thats too much to handle.
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In comment 14387733 kennyd said:
Quote:
In comment 14387727 FrankieR said:
Quote:
In comment 14387723 Csonka said:
Quote:
Macron already said so, and he'll request international funding.
Awesome. Fuck him.
This is the kind of shit that got the original thread deleted. WTF is wrong with you???
Registered April 2019.
So that is an indictment on me for just deciding to sign up when Hswilek registered a year ago and kenny did a year before that? Outrageous.
My comment was targeted toward the fiscal irresponsibility of asking for help in rebuilding the thing and I guess thats too much to handle.
ehhh.. let it go .. this is nowhere as interesting as someone shouting liberals want to build a mosque there are whatever it was that took that thread off the rails.. wow so sorry i missed that. sounds super entertaining.
This is fair Bill. Knee jerk reaction to the news he was pursuing that.
Sorry for the dust up. I hate seeing threads getting devoured by politics and vitriol. I have family in Belgium as well as Germany and I was annoyed. Again, carry on.
Wow...looks a lot better than I thought it would. I think the major question is in how much of that stone was supported by the wood that was burned away.
I am assuming the fire is completely extinguished?
I agree with that. The heat from that blaze would have surely caused the lead pieces holding the glass in place to melt and leaving nothing to hold them in place. If that somehow held, the stress caused by the immense heat would've caused the glass to break and fall. Either way, the chances any of the stained glass survived are slim at best IMO.
It would truly be a miracle if any of it made it through that blaze based on the the pics/video I saw.
The stained glass windows in the pitched roof structure are total losses, sadly, but I believe we'll soon hear that the stained glass windows in the main part of the church (including the iconic north rose window) will have been substantially spared.
The vault essentially acted as a firewall against the blaze of the roof structure above, saving the church below from total destruction. As the wooden roof burned, it shed much of its weight, so the vault, which is self-supporting, likely came under a reduced load. It's also made of stone, which was more resistant to thermal exposure than other building materials.
The center part of the vault that collapsed into the church likely came down with the main spire, which was reportedly 250 tons of lead and oak.
If you look at some of the images, the wooden pews in the foreground (north side) appear to be undamaged. That bodes well for the stained glass of the north rose window and the organ.
My understanding is that the rose windows in the north and south transepts are gone, and that the apsidal windows are probably shot as well. The west wall should be okay, though. The lancet windows in the side walls probably didn't fare well, as the lead used for each of the separate panes is prone to liquify in high temperatures. Once that goes, the glass follows.
A lot of what perished was part of the 19th century reconstruction by Viollet le Duc, but the windows and wood date back 800 years.
twitter video - ( New Window )
Turned ugly? Wow, how? I completely missed it.
A French Billionaire Has Pledged 100 Million Euros To Help Rebuild The Notre Dame Cathedral - ( New Window )
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
there was a major fire in a European apartment complex a little while ago with the same questions--it had a faulty or outdated fire sprinkler system. I hope these are outliers and not going to happen in the future.
(not the response time, but the preparedness.
Its an unfortunate accident but I have to imagine the contingency plan for fire at Notre Dame was dont let it catch fire.
Nobody was killed thankfully. From what I read it was open when the fire started and people were still on line to get in, must have been some even of panic. If memory serves it wouldnt be an easy building for a big crowd to pour out of in an orderly fashion.
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
How can you say exactly what fire fighting capability was brought to bear?
Im so saddened by this. I plan on making a donation to the recovery effort.
Here's an article from BuildingConservation.com going over this very issue!!:
Fire Suppression in Historic Buildings
Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.
Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.
Follett is one of my favorite authors.
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
Interesting read I came across on twitter of the opinions of someone at least qualified. I come from a family of Newark firemen so plan on asking about their opinions this Sunday at Easter.
Link - ( New Window )
Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.
My wife and I originally bonded over our shared love of this book. We even talked about it tonight in regards to the attempts to save the relics from the fire in that story and what must have been going on in Notre Dame as the fire broke out.
You are rebuilding it cause it is the most visited landmark in France ahead of the Eiffel tower. You are rebuilding it cause it building that defined Paris. You are hung up on the religious aspect of it. Notre Dame meant waaaay more than that to Paris and France. It was an achievement of their culture.
Fantastic fictional story about Cathedral building throughout the middle ages and the powers that be...kind of Game of Thrones-ish.
On topic, you might like Medici: The Magnificent on Netflix. GOT-esque / middle ages, 1st season is mostly about the people & city during the construction of the dome of the cathedral in Florence. Also GOT-esque in that Sean Bean & Richard Madden are in it. It's at least somewhat historically accurate on my cursory look online (names and broad strokes anyway). Decent overall
This fire, unreal to see the pictures. Really sad
The Cathedral holds 2,000 masses per year. People come from all over the world to not only see the Cathedral, but also to worship along with French Catholics.
Archbishop of Paris confirms all three major rose windows survived, along with the bells, organ and the most culturally and religiously significant pieces of the collection. They are still taking inventory, and theres a lot of smoke/water damage, but it would appear the vault indeed functioned to save the vast majority of the churchs interior from the fire above.
Miraculous - ( New Window )
Think about it. Up to then only states could collect capital and build things that large over that many years.
It memorializes the rise of craftsman ( the beginning of the professional and middle class). It marks power moving away from the capital center of Rome. I marks the contributions of many people moving voluntarily instead of a few people by force.
It marked people talking other people into significant "movement" over generations instead of the only other lever at the time...force.
It marked non state belief systems into actions.
It's a initial symbol of the movement to tension and then balance between state, religion and individuals that played out over centuries through the Rennisance and finally to the Enlightenment based revolutions.
It was a marker on the road of the power shift from the Mediterranean to the North Sea that still dominates Europe.
It was a symbol, if understood, of a lot more than catholicism.
imo
French firefighters are on par with the best in the world, but the Paris fire trucks seem exceedingly small, at least the ones I saw while visiting. Tiny streets, unbelievable traffic.
Great to see the Rose window was saved - how that happened with those flames is unreal.
I think the funding to restore will be easily covered by donations - just saw $300 mill from European billionaires pledged already.
Truly amazing...and frankly, a big relief.
Any word on human injuries/casualties? I haven't heard anything yet and it's too bad that for many it appears that is a secondary thought to the structure itself.
Hoping for the best all around.
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Archbishop of Paris confirms all three major rose windows survived, along with the bells, organ and the most culturally and religiously significant pieces of the collection. They are still taking inventory, and theres a lot of smoke/water damage, but it would appear the vault indeed functioned to save the vast majority of the churchs interior from the fire above. Miraculous - ( New Window )
Miraculous indeed. I'm just amazed and thankful the Windows survived.
No doubt a tremendous job by them but if that is how they were saved, I think it's miraculous considering what the firefighters were up against.
In addition to the other arguments put forward, Id note that its not a given that Christianity is mostly dead in France.
Especially in response to changes to the composition of the population.
Belief systems tend to revive in the face of external shifts
We have been to St. Peter's Basilica. Cannot even imagine that catching fire.
but in the end, thank god no one died. I think we need to all remember that in the end, its just a building. A beautiful historic building but just a building.
they will fix it
Any word on human injuries/casualties? I haven't heard anything yet and it's too bad that for many it appears that is a secondary thought to the structure itself.
Hoping for the best all around.
The active fire involved a wooden roof structure resting on top of the stone vault above the nave of the church (which is the 'roof' visible when standing in the church). The structure supported a pitched roof and known as "The Forest" due its timber construction dating back centuries. The spire was attached to, and rose above the roof, and because of its construction (wood and lead) became structurally unsound during the fire and collapsed. The debris from the collapsed spire is likely what compromised the vault.
There was small rose windows at the end of the Forest structure above each side of the transept, above the 'main' rose windows; these were predictably blown out during the fire and had historical value in and of themselves, but were not nearly as well-known as the large windows directly below. I think some of the (rather haunting) images of the blown-out upper windows silhouetted against the inferno caused many to mistakenly believe the more famous rose windows visible from inside the church had been destroyed.
The fact is, the old, dried-out nature of the hardwood roof caused a rapidly-intensifying, smoky fire, but the fire did not spread in any substantial part to the interior of the church, because of the stone vault which acted essentially as a firewall. The fire was mostly isolated to the roof structure which sat above, and separate from, the rest of the church.
So, where the vault failed, debris came down and started a fire, but the fire either did not spread to the rest of the church interior or was quickly extinguished. This, combined with efforts to preserve the windows (controlling heat with water spray) led to their survival. Moreover, we cannot discount the efforts of those who risked danger to move some of the priceless artifacts out of the church while the fire was underway, as there was no way to be certain that the structure wasn't in danger of imminent collapse. The artifacts could have easily been damaged or destroyed by the smoke/water which appears to be a chief concern inside of the church.
What is a real pity is the fact that we can't discuss where football and social issues intersect e.g. Black Lives Matter leading to the kneeling etc.
I know that judgement calls are not easy on substance. But there is one criterion that is easy IMO: no tolerance policy for
ad hominems.
Much easier to enforce:
I disagree with your position (hopefully, because....)
vs
What an asshole you are ....
I would enforce this for all threads, btw.
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...by playing continuous water streams on them. Not miraculous, but just a hell of a good job by the fire fighters.
No doubt a tremendous job by them but if that is how they were saved, I think it's miraculous considering what the firefighters were up against.
In so many ways (in a way, unfortunately), first responders are becoming the heroes of the 21st Century.
it takes about 4 seconds.
Anybody could do it, but mods know when something is about to get deleted. I wouldn't recommend it for a short obviously doomed thread, but when a page gets 100-200 or more comments and gets deleted it punishes everyone.
type in archive.is
copy the url on top of the bigblueinteractive.com or any page.
Paste it at the top of the archive.is page and it's done.
This is why we can't have nice things.
I saw the baiting comments and just skimmed over those.
Why the need to point out to a rabble rouser that they are rabble rousing?
It's almost as obnoxious.
Also I agree. It's valuable to us in some weird way, but the quick draw pull thread is over used.
The fire wasn't actually in the church, it was in what was more or less a separate (albeit massive) structure on top of the church, with a few comparatively small sections which caved in when the spire fell.
The raging inferno was always outside of the church on top of it. It's incredible, but not very surprising given the type of construction.
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of the interior. Pews still intact; previous day candles were still burning; aside from rubble in the middle and smoke damage high up, it looks much better than I could have believed. Hard to believe it could look that good with the amount of fire that was there.
The fire wasn't actually in the church, it was in what was more or less a separate (albeit massive) structure on top of the church, with a few comparatively small sections which caved in when the spire fell.
The raging inferno was always outside of the church on top of it. It's incredible, but not very surprising given the type of construction.
Wow. Thanks for the input.
Judging by the aerial pic from above Eric posted on page 1, I thought for sure the fire was inside and not outside on top.
Appreciate the info you've posted.
I'm sure there will be additional restorative measures taken to harden against future fire risk and ensure structural integrity for generations to come.
But what is so remarkable for me, even centuries later, is that the building (and its design) remained structurally sound during 15 hours of active fire, and even after the 250t spire crashed through the roof. Incredible.
250 tons... to put that in perspective, basically a 787 at max takeoff weight. Insane!!
Though the premise that there's a digital copy of the building may be inaccurate, based on the comments. Amazingly, the Cathedral has undergone many, many changes over the years, and much of the damage was to renovations done in the 1870's!
Louis XIV and Louis XV had it drastically remodeled in the 17th and 18th centuries. In 1786, architects removed the original spire after centuries of wind had weakened its oak frame. During the French Revolution, revolutionary forces destroyed most of the statuary, and the cathedral was rededicated to the atheist Cult of Reason and the deist Cult of the Supreme Being (a pet project of Maximilien Robespierre). Napoleon returned the cathedral to the Roman Catholic Church after his rise to power in 1801, but 30 years later, Notre Dame had fallen into disrepair, and many Parisians regarded it as a crumbling old eyesore.
But The Hunchback of Notre Dame transformed the sorely neglected cathedral into a beloved Paris landmark again. It launched Lassus and Viollet-le-Duc's 25-year process of restoration, which included reconstructing the spire that collapsed in the April 15 fire.
Here's to hoping they don't just turn the rebuild into a rushed cash boondoggle with just the contemporary power-tool (as much as I love and respect those also) crank-it-out methods.
Eduard Habsburg
@EduardHabsburg
This may be the right occasion to post the earliest known photograph of Notre Dame from 1838. Photography was barely invented
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And for all of Western civilization actually.
I can't understand why there was not more immediate and more powerful fire fighting capability brought to bear. Why did it take so long to get it there, such as it was? Where were the federal and city governments on this score? It was no secret that the place was a tinderbox. They simply weren't ready. How can that be?
How can you say exactly what fire fighting capability was brought to bear?
Can't, of course, Just looked that way to me on TV and it's not as if there wasn't enough coverage or that what was being used to fight it was hidden or being ignored.
Think about it. Up to then only states could collect capital and build things that large over that many years.
It memorializes the rise of craftsman ( the beginning of the professional and middle class). It marks power moving away from the capital center of Rome. I marks the contributions of many people moving voluntarily instead of a few people by force.
It marked people talking other people into significant "movement" over generations instead of the only other lever at the time...force.
It marked non state belief systems into actions.
It's a initial symbol of the movement to tension and then balance between state, religion and individuals that played out over centuries through the Rennisance and finally to the Enlightenment based revolutions.
It was a marker on the road of the power shift from the Mediterranean to the North Sea that still dominates Europe.
It was a symbol, if understood, of a lot more than catholicism.
imo
True. Excellent remark.