right?
And I'm saying this in reference to Kyler Murray moreso than Josh Rosen as it relates to the Giants.
The second the Cardinals turn in that draft card, if it is indeed Murray, Rosen's value has has to be slashed in half of what it is this week and early next, right? Because everybody will then definitively know that Rosen is on the block and they will take what they can get.
IMO, if Rosen is not traded prior to the start of the draft, I think that means they are not taking Murray and the Giants need to be prepared for that scenario if Murray is their guy, and should have two potential trade packages ready for both SF and NYJ.
^^^^
It's this and it has always been this.
If multiple teams are interested Rosen he will be traded at MARKET VALUE (whatever that is). The timing (as in before or during the draft) is irrelevant.
I've used this analogy before, but if you had no other choice but to sell your home immediately, and you only had one bidder, then you'd have to sell at below market price.
But if multiple bidders are interested, the fact that you had to sell immediately would not affect the sale price. Your home would sell at market price.
I will assume that there is a timeline attached to this offer.
I don't think DG wants to be on the clock at pick 6 or 17 and have the Cardinals come calling.
Ideally, You know when AZ picks Murray that you have a deal in place to trade for Rosen so you can focus on the other picks you need to make.
I think it works best for both teams to have this hammered out at the beginning of the draft. AZ gets value and NYG gets their QB, allowing the 1st round picks to go to the defense.
I will assume that there is a timeline attached to this offer.
I don't think DG wants to be on the clock at pick 6 or 17 and have the Cardinals come calling.
Ideally, You know when AZ picks Murray that you have a deal in place to trade for Rosen so you can focus on the other picks you need to make.
I think it works best for both teams to have this hammered out at the beginning of the draft. AZ gets value and NYG gets their QB, allowing the 1st round picks to go to the defense.
I agree for the most part.
I think if and when AZ starts entertaining offers for Rosen they will talk to a number of teams and find out what each team's best and presumably final offer is. However, it's always possible that a team could up their offer on draft day, based on how the draft is going.
For example, Wash, Denver, Cincy, Miami or the NYG may be SOL if the QB they wanted was taken when their pick comes up and at that point they could up their offer for Rosen. If they really want Rosen they might also have to up their offer if one of the other teams does.
But teams aren't going to LOWER their offers right after AZ picks Murray, because they would still be in a competitive bidding situation for Rosen.
It's so hard to tell because while we can speculate Shurmur loves him, what about DG? The Giants love guys that check boxes and DG is a Giants man through and through. Also, I'm really curious how his interviews went. He didn't come off well in public interviews at all. Kind of came across as a dim bulb. Weird we haven't heard about the wonderlics being leaked yet.
Quote:
Dave Te Thomas has said as much that NYG has an offer on the table for Rosen, pick 37. That is the starting point and the seed has been planted.
I will assume that there is a timeline attached to this offer.
I don't think DG wants to be on the clock at pick 6 or 17 and have the Cardinals come calling.
Ideally, You know when AZ picks Murray that you have a deal in place to trade for Rosen so you can focus on the other picks you need to make.
I think it works best for both teams to have this hammered out at the beginning of the draft. AZ gets value and NYG gets their QB, allowing the 1st round picks to go to the defense.
I agree for the most part.
I think if and when AZ starts entertaining offers for Rosen they will talk to a number of teams and find out what each team's best and presumably final offer is. However, it's always possible that a team could up their offer on draft day, based on how the draft is going.
For example, Wash, Denver, Cincy, Miami or the NYG may be SOL if the QB they wanted was taken when their pick comes up and at that point they could up their offer for Rosen. If they really want Rosen they might also have to up their offer if one of the other teams does.
But teams aren't going to LOWER their offers right after AZ picks Murray, because they would still be in a competitive bidding situation for Rosen.
Jim, I have to believe DG has a value on Rosen just like he had a value on OBJ. With OBJ they had no time factor to consider. With the scenario of AZ drafting Murray, the Giants are only 5 picks after them and the Rosen situation has a factor to even a small degree on who they pick and when they pick them. Maybe NYG likes Lock and will take him as plan B to the Rosen offer of 37. Lock may not be available at 17 with Denver rumored to like him. DG may decide to get him at 6 and then Rosen will go to another team with one less bidder.
Offers will drop as bidders get their other options.
Time is a factor and the timing will change the value.
That seems very unlikely.
My read was that Lynch didn't want to part with #2 without getting #6 back in return. You can't just trade away the #2 overall pick for a player as a young, 1st time GM. That #2 pick has way too much value to your franchise vs. a 95 million dollar receiver who has missed significant time due to injury.
That seems to be 100% the issue. Hence the Giants telling them they needed 2 first rounders.
For the Giants, swapping picks wasn't going to do it. They wanted 2 first rounders this year. That was the starting point. If I had to guess, the Niners offered the Giants their 2nd rounder and possibly a #1 in 2020. Giants weren't interested. In lieu of having another first round pick, the Niners had to work with their #2 overall. And odds are they probably told the Giants they would trade up into the late first round with their 2nd rounder and give them that pick. And furthermore, the Giants probably said they need to give them a pick in the middle of the first round.
And honestly, in order for the Niners to move up, they'd have to give up their 2nd and perhaps a 3rd as well, and the Giants wanted that third.
Too many moving parts. Too complex. The Browns gave Gettleman exactly what he needed with no frills, and the added benefit they already were working things out around Vernon and Zietler.
The Giants need several players. As great as getting the #2 over all is. I think the Giants will get more benefit picking guys at 6 and 17. The Niners were 1 year too early. If this was 2020, and you had those 3 QBs coming out, the Giants probably make that deal.
To the extent that taking Murray at #1 overall is implied by trading Rosen anyway, how does Murray actually being drafted by Arizona vs assumed that he will be drafted by Arizona change Rosen's value in any meaningful way? How much did Sam Bradford's value drop when the Eagles drafted Carson Wentz?
Right? To me, I bet Shurmur loves him, but DG? I'd have a hard time buying that.
What departure? DG has only had the ‘decision’ reins here for ONE year. There is no departure in play here
I still think it appears they will take Murray and eventually deal Rosen, and I don't think waiting to deal Rosen necessarily affects his trade value.
But buckle up, if we don't get a definitive word about Zona's intentions there is a real chance Murray falls into the Giants' lap.
If the Cards don’t take him I don’t care what they have to give up to get him. Murray is my #1 personally, if not him I just hope they get good players.
Therefore, a cost must be determined by the Giants ahead of time and a timeline as to when the trade will be done mainly because it alters the plan of the 2 1st round picks.
Arizona can wait but it may force teams to go in another directions. The sooner the trade is agreed to the better for all involved.
Mara
Tisch
Gettleman
Chris Mara
Abrams
Shurmur
And I wouldn't discount Accorsi being allowed to weigh in.
The next Giants' QB isn't going to be Gettleman's call alone.
The draft will be aired on ABC for the first time, I imagine this has been a done deal and the NFL is doing its best to create some intrigue here. The cards are simply waiting out what they probably see as a weak trade market for Rosen.
Some of the teams may be waiting to see how the draft shakes out. If a QB they want gets taken before them, they might get nervous about losing out on Rosen as plan B and up the offer.
It seems obvious no one is getting into a bidding war pre draft and no one is offering a healthy trade package (or that package is contingent on the preferred draft prospect becoming unavailable). Once things begin to sort out, that's when any bidding war is going to happen and teams start upping their weak offers. Or, no war happens and it becomes taking the weak offer or keeping him.
To maximize their potential return though they cannot wait until after the #1 pick is made...imo.
That's a lot to just trash after a single season.
Mara
Tisch
Gettleman
Chris Mara
Abrams
Shurmur
And I wouldn't discount Accorsi being allowed to weigh in.
The next Giants' QB isn't going to be Gettleman's call alone.
There’s a war room. Opinions may be offered, but DG makes the final decision. That is how it has always worked with the Giants. That’s how it most likely will always work
That was before DG, so that’s no longer germane, UNLESS DG ascribes to that
I think the Giants' front office decisions are very much made by committee, with the big ones needing John Mara's stamp of approval. I don't see the Giants drafting Murray or any other QB if Mara doesn't OK it.
I think the Giants' front office decisions are very much made by committee, with the big ones needing John Mara's stamp of approval. I don't see the Giants drafting Murray or any other QB if Mara doesn't OK it.
For a contract as big as OBJ’s, no doubt, but we’re talking about the draft war room. I have never heard of Mara/Tisch/Abrams ever weighing in on who to draft
Quote:
Giants are known to have some positional must have requirement in terms of physical size, and have stuck to them for years. KM is far below the mark for QBs.
That was before DG, so that’s no longer germane, UNLESS DG ascribes to that
Semantics. It is part of their philosophy, this is a sport of huge men.
Quote:
In comment 14388807 JonC said:
Quote:
Giants are known to have some positional must have requirement in terms of physical size, and have stuck to them for years. KM is far below the mark for QBs.
That was before DG, so that’s no longer germane, UNLESS DG ascribes to that
Semantics. It is part of their philosophy, this is a sport of huge men.
A sport of Giant men.
Input as to opinion yes. Sure, a whole organization is and should get involved vis a vis character issues, but that’s all settled once they’re in the war room the days of the draft. At that point, it’s DG, imv
I hear you Jon. He is based in Arizona and seems to be locked into what is going on. He seemed firm on Murray to AZ and Rosen to be moved, and the NYG offer of 37.
First, you don't win NFL championships with shiny objects... We finally got rid of the shiniest of objects who led our team on a winding and excruciating path to nowhere... Have we not learned our lesson? Or the lessons of successful quarterbacks like RGIII and Carson Wentz? Or unsuccessful quarterbacks like Johnny Football?
And second, since Eli was drafted in 2004, he is among less than a handful of top ten draftees who have won a super bowl (which include guys like Reggie Bush, BJ Raji and Jerod Mayo)... Why? In part, it is because bad teams are drafting them. But more importantly, individuals simply don't have the same impact in football as other sports. Yes, LT had a profound impact on the sport and pushed the Giants over the championship goal line twice, but those were very good Giant teams. And the game today is much different...
All of this seems to be stemming from this completely irrelevant narrative of the ills of being in quarterback hell... there is only one hell in football (and all sports for that matter)... And that is championship hell... Who cares if teams like the Chiefs, Rams and Colts are dwelling in blissful quarterback heaven but remain in championship hell? I'll take an above average quarterback and a championship over championship-less teams led by Mahomes, Goff and Luck....
So the only sensible path today is continuing on the very prudent path that Gettleman has put the team on over the past year. And that is to rebuild the Giants into A BALANCED TEAM! One that scores AND defends!!!
He must again use the draft picks to maximize the number of immediate starters and future pro bowl type players. For this team and this year, that is 1) drafting fast defensive players well equipped for Bettcher's 3/4 defense with the two first round picks - meaning two of Allen/White/Bush/Sweat/Burns... And 2) drafting a STARTER ala what they did with Hernandez last year. Depending on how the draft proceeds, that could likely be OL or WR/TE. But might also be DL or CB. Quality trumps quantity so perhaps using some of the later picks to move up if necessary to ensure that we have three legitimate starters this year.
Re quarterback, they should again use one of their 3rd/4th round picks to get a Grier/Jackson/Finley to replace Lauletta. Or if Gettleman has done anything regarding the Cardinals, perhaps he has put in place a trade for Rosen offering a 3rd/4th round pick this year and a third next year in the event the Cards take Murray. I agree with some of the posters saying that Rosen's value is unchanged irrespective of Arizona drafting Murray - in this case, it is no more than a third this year and perhaps a third next year at most. Another example of how quickly shiny players lose their lustre...
Otherwise, the quarterback of the future will come next year. Or the following year. Or maybe the year after that. There is simply no need to be in panic mode. Not now. Not ever. Not for any one player. We can win a championship with Eli Manning. Or Ryan Finley for that matter if we have the proper team in place...
If nothing else, just remember this Britt: shiny objects in football are always much, much further away from NFL championships than they ever appear....
First, you don't win NFL championships with shiny objects... We finally got rid of the shiniest of objects who led our team on a winding and excruciating path to nowhere... Have we not learned our lesson? Or the lessons of successful quarterbacks like RGIII and Carson Wentz? Or unsuccessful quarterbacks like Johnny Football?
And second, since Eli was drafted in 2004, he is among less than a handful of top ten draftees who have won a super bowl (which include guys like Reggie Bush, BJ Raji and Jerod Mayo)... Why? In part, it is because bad teams are drafting them. But more importantly, individuals simply don't have the same impact in football as other sports. Yes, LT had a profound impact on the sport and pushed the Giants over the championship goal line twice, but those were very good Giant teams. And the game today is much different...
All of this seems to be stemming from this completely irrelevant narrative of the ills of being in quarterback hell... there is only one hell in football (and all sports for that matter)... And that is championship hell... Who cares if teams like the Chiefs, Rams and Colts are dwelling in blissful quarterback heaven but remain in championship hell? I'll take an above average quarterback and a championship over championship-less teams led by Mahomes, Goff and Luck....
So the only sensible path today is continuing on the very prudent path that Gettleman has put the team on over the past year. And that is to rebuild the Giants into A BALANCED TEAM! One that scores AND defends!!!
He must again use the draft picks to maximize the number of immediate starters and future pro bowl type players. For this team and this year, that is 1) drafting fast defensive players well equipped for Bettcher's 3/4 defense with the two first round picks - meaning two of Allen/White/Bush/Sweat/Burns... And 2) drafting a STARTER ala what they did with Hernandez last year. Depending on how the draft proceeds, that could likely be OL or WR/TE. But might also be DL or CB. Quality trumps quantity so perhaps using some of the later picks to move up if necessary to ensure that we have three legitimate starters this year.
Re quarterback, they should again use one of their 3rd/4th round picks to get a Grier/Jackson/Finley to replace Lauletta. Or if Gettleman has done anything regarding the Cardinals, perhaps he has put in place a trade for Rosen offering a 3rd/4th round pick this year and a third next year in the event the Cards take Murray. I agree with some of the posters saying that Rosen's value is unchanged irrespective of Arizona drafting Murray - in this case, it is no more than a third this year and perhaps a third next year at most. Another example of how quickly shiny players lose their lustre...
Otherwise, the quarterback of the future will come next year. Or the following year. Or maybe the year after that. There is simply no need to be in panic mode. Not now. Not ever. Not for any one player. We can win a championship with Eli Manning. Or Ryan Finley for that matter if we have the proper team in place...
If nothing else, just remember this Britt: shiny objects in football are always much, much further away from NFL championships than they ever appear....
The Giants are at ground zero in rebuilding their defense.
Yeah I agree Terps. Don't they ding guys that lack the measurables in their system, which means he can't really be a flawless prospect, which means others will grade out ahead. I think that is the Giants way right or wrong.
Rosen value is what teams are interested in him - if they draft Murray then teams know Rosen will be traded and probably that first day
teams interested in Rosen are on the clock
if more than one team is interested in Rosen there will be a bidding war and his value goes up
Just say NO to wasting another 3rd/4th round pick on drafting a QB. The odds that a QB would slip to the 3rd/4th round and become a quality starter is low as compared to the likelihood of finding a solid contributor at a different spot. We need solid contributors more than we need a QB whose realistic career is riding the pine.
First, you don't win NFL championships with shiny objects... We finally got rid of the shiniest of objects who led our team on a winding and excruciating path to nowhere... Have we not learned our lesson? Or the lessons of successful quarterbacks like RGIII and Carson Wentz? Or unsuccessful quarterbacks like Johnny Football?
And second, since Eli was drafted in 2004, he is among less than a handful of top ten draftees who have won a super bowl (which include guys like Reggie Bush, BJ Raji and Jerod Mayo)... Why? In part, it is because bad teams are drafting them. But more importantly, individuals simply don't have the same impact in football as other sports. Yes, LT had a profound impact on the sport and pushed the Giants over the championship goal line twice, but those were very good Giant teams. And the game today is much different...
All of this seems to be stemming from this completely irrelevant narrative of the ills of being in quarterback hell... there is only one hell in football (and all sports for that matter)... And that is championship hell... Who cares if teams like the Chiefs, Rams and Colts are dwelling in blissful quarterback heaven but remain in championship hell? I'll take an above average quarterback and a championship over championship-less teams led by Mahomes, Goff and Luck....
So the only sensible path today is continuing on the very prudent path that Gettleman has put the team on over the past year. And that is to rebuild the Giants into A BALANCED TEAM! One that scores AND defends!!!
He must again use the draft picks to maximize the number of immediate starters and future pro bowl type players. For this team and this year, that is 1) drafting fast defensive players well equipped for Bettcher's 3/4 defense with the two first round picks - meaning two of Allen/White/Bush/Sweat/Burns... And 2) drafting a STARTER ala what they did with Hernandez last year. Depending on how the draft proceeds, that could likely be OL or WR/TE. But might also be DL or CB. Quality trumps quantity so perhaps using some of the later picks to move up if necessary to ensure that we have three legitimate starters this year.
Re quarterback, they should again use one of their 3rd/4th round picks to get a Grier/Jackson/Finley to replace Lauletta. Or if Gettleman has done anything regarding the Cardinals, perhaps he has put in place a trade for Rosen offering a 3rd/4th round pick this year and a third next year in the event the Cards take Murray. I agree with some of the posters saying that Rosen's value is unchanged irrespective of Arizona drafting Murray - in this case, it is no more than a third this year and perhaps a third next year at most. Another example of how quickly shiny players lose their lustre...
Otherwise, the quarterback of the future will come next year. Or the following year. Or maybe the year after that. There is simply no need to be in panic mode. Not now. Not ever. Not for any one player. We can win a championship with Eli Manning. Or Ryan Finley for that matter if we have the proper team in place...
If nothing else, just remember this Britt: shiny objects in football are always much, much further away from NFL championships than they ever appear....
Ha, you've got me all wrong... This is not necessarily what I think is the right thing, it's just a hunch at what I think they might be thinking. Reading the tea leaves, so to say.
If I had my druthers the next QB would be at least 6'4, 230, big arm pocket passer.
But we need to concurrently be thinking about the next guy, too.