Nothing I’ve seen even gives me a glimmer of hope as to a productive future. He doesn’t make plays consistently. Very accurate in the short to intermediate area, but nothing screams wow.
If we draft him, I’ll root like he’ll, but I’m not holding my breath.
because he doesn’t have “flashy” skills. He’s mobile but not quick. He’s got a good arm, not special. His best attribute is his head, but he puts he ball in harms way too often. He “seems” to be a high floor, low ceiling kind of guy, who is hard to get excited about. If they want to go that route they should take the guy with the better arm- Haskins. More potential for growth too.
after reading all the BBI opinions, I expected to see a noodle armed mush when I watched his pro day and he looked pretty good to me. A pro day isn't much so I went and looked at what I could find on youtube and it still wasn't bad. THE thing I came away with was just how horrible his WRs were as there were too many drops to count....I don't know squat but he doesn't look terrible to me and the arm looks strong enough to my untrained eye. Lauleta on the other hand looks like a guy with a weak arm and did to me before he was drafted...just as a comparison.
Whether he merits a first round pick (I don't think he does) is another matter.
There was a compelling podcast discussion the other day between Evan Silva and Greg Gabriel about the Giants and what they're doing at QB. Gabriel (who has a lot of history with the Giants) read quite a bit into Chris Mara's attendance at Daniel Jones's workout (but not Lock's).
There are two key concepts/bits of info from this offseason on this subject, IMO:
1. jtgiants - the #6 pick will be a defensive player
2. Sy - if the Giants want Jones, they're not going to wait until #17 to pick him
Gabriel also said something else on the podcast...Jones would probably require a trade up from #17 to get him.
RE: I can't say I have seen a lot of Duke games... Â
but how bad IS his arm? It seems that is his biggest issue. Is it Chad Pennington bad?
Eli doesn't have a Mahomes-like cannon, but it is more than enough. How does he compare?
It's not bad at all. He has really good touch on the long stuff, but I guess the knock is he puts too much air under them. From what I saw it was good placement though. The only other thing was he falls in love with the primary option, and there was some concern on mid range sideline throws that there's some potential for INTs the was he places those. The arm strength stuff is not accurate in my view. His velocity is not bad.
Who knows though? LOL I thought last years draft was interesting, I have ZERO idea what to expect from us on draft day. It's kinda cool actually.
because he doesn’t have “flashy” skills. He’s mobile but not quick. He’s got a good arm, not special. His best attribute is his head, but he puts he ball in harms way too often. He “seems” to be a high floor, low ceiling kind of guy, who is hard to get excited about. If they want to go that route they should take the guy with the better arm- Haskins. More potential for growth too.
The worry on Haskins was his receivers were awesome. Jones had a few JAGs, many that won't sniff the NFL and dropped a lot of balls.
Seriously though, take away Cutcliffe, his sneaky athleticism and his size, and what do you have? He has never thrown for more than 3000 yards in a season, he has no zip on his passes,
But he doesn't turn the ball over. Okay, great. If I wanted a tall, sneaky athletic QB who doesn't turn the ball over and was coached by David Cutcliffe, I'd draft Erik Ainge.
RE: Has some arm strength and accuracy questions Â
After all, he's been to the Manning football camps and he and Eli are chums.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
I don't love the guy. But he's very competitive and tough Â
After all, he's been to the Manning football camps and he and Eli are chums.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
OMG dude. Can you drop the Eli stuff every other post? What in the world does Jones climbing up NFL draft boards have to do with Eli Manning? Let it go man.
After all, he's been to the Manning football camps and he and Eli are chums.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
OMG dude. Can you drop the Eli stuff every other post? What in the world does Jones climbing up NFL draft boards have to do with Eli Manning? Let it go man.
There is a reason they're likely to draft Jones and its not talent.
You can't just look at stats - you need to look at the team Â
around him. Guys like Leinert can throw for all kinds of yards when USC was pumping out 1st rd picks at OL and WR. Jones played for Duke, who I don't think has any other pro prospect on its roster (I may be slightly wrong here but you get my point). Then he has to go play Clemson and others with superior talent. So completion rates, wins, even passing yards need to be calibrated. This is also why its critical to get these players our of their environment, and put them side by side. This is the only way to really judge.
After all, he's been to the Manning football camps and he and Eli are chums.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
OMG dude. Can you drop the Eli stuff every other post? What in the world does Jones climbing up NFL draft boards have to do with Eli Manning? Let it go man.
There is a reason they're likely to draft Jones and its not talent.
Again, what does that have to do with the original post, that he is high on other peoples boards? Do you think you know more than Gil Brandt et al?
If we have an expectation that the next QB is going to be Eli 2.0, we're going to be disappointed. 15 years, 2 titles, and a model face of the franchise...that's a ridiculously high standard. And of course we've already heard Gettleman say he wants to do for this organization what Accorsi did in 2004. A silly thing for Gettleman to say.
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
He certainly did. Do not think ELI could have ever shown that kind of speed. Let Shurmur, DG and Shula make the call. They could live or die with it. Like smarts and toughness in a QB and he seems to have that as well.
RE: You can't just look at stats - you need to look at the team Â
around him. Guys like Leinert can throw for all kinds of yards when USC was pumping out 1st rd picks at OL and WR. Jones played for Duke, who I don't think has any other pro prospect on its roster (I may be slightly wrong here but you get my point). Then he has to go play Clemson and others with superior talent. So completion rates, wins, even passing yards need to be calibrated. This is also why its critical to get these players our of their environment, and put them side by side. This is the only way to really judge.
I don't see what separates Jones from a guy like Eric Dungey, another guy who I don't think is anything more than at most a backup QB prospect in the NFL.
btw, their stats were nearly identical
RE: One problem I think this organization is going to face Â
If we have an expectation that the next QB is going to be Eli 2.0, we're going to be disappointed. 15 years, 2 titles, and a model face of the franchise...that's a ridiculously high standard. And of course we've already heard Gettleman say he wants to do for this organization what Accorsi did in 2004. A silly thing for Gettleman to say.
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
Perhaps he just meant stability at the qb position
Don’t fuck around at QB. Don’t want to hear about the quality of these defensive prospects, the defensive player you take at #6 would literally have to be Lawrence Taylor to be close in value to a franchise QB. Spoiler alert, none of these prospects will become Lawrence Taylor.
IF he is the guy you draft him at 6 and figure out the rest later.
Now, I am not thrilled about Jones and don’t like a lot of what I read or hear about him as a player but I am not an expert. If the Giants love him the only move is to draft him at #6.
After all, he's been to the Manning football camps and he and Eli are chums.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
OMG dude. Can you drop the Eli stuff every other post? What in the world does Jones climbing up NFL draft boards have to do with Eli Manning? Let it go man.
There is a reason they're likely to draft Jones and its not talent.
Again, what does that have to do with the original post, that he is high on other peoples boards? Do you think you know more than Gil Brandt et al?
I'm not alone. There are many who think he's the 4th best QB in the draft. Basically, a Ryan Tannehill type. Nobody looks at Jones and thinks, now there's a guy that can sling it.
RE: One problem I think this organization is going to face Â
If we have an expectation that the next QB is going to be Eli 2.0, we're going to be disappointed. 15 years, 2 titles, and a model face of the franchise...that's a ridiculously high standard. And of course we've already heard Gettleman say he wants to do for this organization what Accorsi did in 2004. A silly thing for Gettleman to say.
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
I agree with most of your post but I don't think what DG said is silly. Doing what Accorsi did for the franchise should be the goal, and him saying that's what he wants to do is just acknowledging that IMO.
I prefer that to him saying the challenge is too high a standard.
I don't believe much of what's written this time of year... Â
If we have an expectation that the next QB is going to be Eli 2.0, we're going to be disappointed. 15 years, 2 titles, and a model face of the franchise...that's a ridiculously high standard. And of course we've already heard Gettleman say he wants to do for this organization what Accorsi did in 2004. A silly thing for Gettleman to say.
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
Don't forget, historic durability....that aspect is often over looked when discussing Eli, very very rare.
RE: RE: You can't just look at stats - you need to look at the team Â
around him. Guys like Leinert can throw for all kinds of yards when USC was pumping out 1st rd picks at OL and WR. Jones played for Duke, who I don't think has any other pro prospect on its roster (I may be slightly wrong here but you get my point). Then he has to go play Clemson and others with superior talent. So completion rates, wins, even passing yards need to be calibrated. This is also why its critical to get these players our of their environment, and put them side by side. This is the only way to really judge.
I don't see what separates Jones from a guy like Eric Dungey, another guy who I don't think is anything more than at most a backup QB prospect in the NFL.
btw, their stats were nearly identical
First off, I wasn't talking about Dungy and don't know much about him. I was talking about Jones, so I don't see what your response is about. Second, a quick reviewing of multiple draft sites shows Dungy never even in the top 20 of college QB's this year (most even have him lower than 30). So why are you comparing a QB that all scouts have between #2-#4, with a guy who won't even be drafted (and may not even get invited to try out as a FA somewhere)? Are you right and every scout in the NFL wrong?
RE: One problem I think this organization is going to face Â
If we have an expectation that the next QB is going to be Eli 2.0, we're going to be disappointed. 15 years, 2 titles, and a model face of the franchise...that's a ridiculously high standard. And of course we've already heard Gettleman say he wants to do for this organization what Accorsi did in 2004. A silly thing for Gettleman to say.
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
Nothing wrong with what DG said. They all generalize like that. Of course he’d like a 2004 redux, but to me, that’s GM-speak. He is not going to reach for a QB he and Shurmur do not believe are franchise-worthy. If he does, that would really set us back. A fireable offense, imo
Stability should only be the goal if the QB is an elite player. Stability with Eli was a good thing...we got two titles out of it...but even that ended up being taken too far. Is the next QB going to be as good as Eli was at his peak? Almost certainly not.
The odds are overwhelming that the next QB we get (Jones, Haskins, Fromm, whomever) is not going to be an elite player. We have to be willing to accept that reality the moment it becomes apparent, and not expect him to make the jump that Eli made circa 2007.
This process demands clear eyes and objective minds, otherwise we could end up waiting six years for a Ryan Tannehill type to become Eli Manning.
I'm not alone. There are many who think he's the 4th best QB in the draft. Basically, a Ryan Tannehill type. Nobody looks at Jones and thinks, now there's a guy that can sling it.
Not a Jones guy, myself, but Pep who cares if you are not alone? You are not Gil Brandt or a professional scout. I can understand you are not impressed or you don't "see it" with him. But that is merely your opinion(and some other fans). I have read he has an accurate and strong arm on short and intermediate range throws. What? All of a sudden his arm strength disappears on deep balls? People say he "floats" it, but is it just a technique failure?
McShay was on last week and he was asked about Jones moving up on boards and he asked the scouts he knew and he was told they aren't moving up on their boards.
We know Jones isn't moving up on David Te's board so far.
After all, he's been to the Manning football camps and he and Eli are chums.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
I don’t want Jones or any other QB in this year’s (or from last year’s) draft.
But if you’re insinuating that you wouldn’t want Eli Manning (redux) at the beginning of his career, you’re crazy.
that someone can be rising up a draft board on April 16th with the draft 2 weeks away seems like something is broken with the process (if that's legit).
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
Don’t fuck around at QB. Don’t want to hear about the quality of these defensive prospects, the defensive player you take at #6 would literally have to be Lawrence Taylor to be close in value to a franchise QB. Spoiler alert, none of these prospects will become Lawrence Taylor.
IF he is the guy you draft him at 6 and figure out the rest later.
Now, I am not thrilled about Jones and don’t like a lot of what I read or hear about him as a player but I am not an expert. If the Giants love him the only move is to draft him at #6.
You’re never going to win anything without a complete team. So get the best you can at the appropriate time. The margin of difference greatly favors the DL guy over QB this year and next year’s QB over this year’s QB. Either way, you have the same holes to fill..
that someone can be rising up a draft board on April 16th with the draft 2 weeks away seems like something is broken with the process (if that's legit).
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
Rising up draft boards = dissonance between Mock drafters(sports writers) and the late leaks of how the NFL views these prospects. It happens every year.
Right, this is probably the correct time for hearing about risers Â
and drops. The teams have seen the combine, had private workouts, had interviews and meetings, and are now compiling the data. The "media" had made their mock drafts weeks ago to get clicks, with little or no input, so it makes sense things change after the actual scouting analysis is completed.
I can't help but think the value would be better on Finley a couple rounds later. I just can't find much of a gap anywhere between he and Jones and I can't find anything about Jones that really excites me or makes me think he has a high ceiling.
He screams "average" and "safe" to me. Not really seeing the upside. I also didn't watch Duke play on a weekly basis... but I haven't seen a whole lot of analysts suggest 6th overall would be an appropriate spot to draft Jones. If anything, it feels like it'd be a major reach.
There will be better defensive players on the board there. I just don't like or see the value and it's the one pick (aside from maybe Gary) that would bug me.
If they decide he's the guy, I'll root for him and hope they're right. I just don't see it and wouldn't be thrilled.
that someone can be rising up a draft board on April 16th with the draft 2 weeks away seems like something is broken with the process (if that's legit).
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
When a person is "rising" close to the draft it is more a product of the media collecting more information from teams about their true opinions on players. We are now hearing that several teams actually like Daniel Jones over Dwayne Haskins.
that someone can be rising up a draft board on April 16th with the draft 2 weeks away seems like something is broken with the process (if that's legit).
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
Rising up draft boards = dissonance between Mock drafters(sports writers) and the late leaks of how the NFL views these prospects. It happens every year.
Good point, makes sense.
It probably explains the December 2007 mock draft with Andre Woodson in the first round. As we know the Giants took him in the 6th.
Damontre Moore was in many 1st rounds of mocks drafts in February of his draft year, as we know he went in the 3rd.
that someone can be rising up a draft board on April 16th with the draft 2 weeks away seems like something is broken with the process (if that's legit).
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
When a person is "rising" close to the draft it is more a product of the media collecting more information from teams about their true opinions on players. We are now hearing that several teams actually like Daniel Jones over Dwayne Haskins.
Yeah, makes sense, still seems a little bizarre to me, but teams also leak a lot of false stuff around now.
Just watch youtube and you'll see. I mean if Jones and Duke couldn't move the ball against Clemson then he obviously sucks
Anyone who saw Russell Wilson in college knew he had the IT factor and would be a player on the next level. He still fell to the 3rd round because of his height. But here we are years later with him as the highest paid player in the game and former Super Bowl Champion.
Don't give these FO guys too much credit, some of these online guys live and breathe college football know more than the talking heads you watch on TV.
I don't think teams keep a rolling big board throughout the season the way pundits do - they scout these guys during the seasons, compile all their raw data, and then spend these few months after that season arguing, reviewing the tape, meeting with the players officially, assigning final grades, and then setting their boards. As they set their boards I think that's when the leaks start to some degree, as well as the tea leaf reading based on which players are getting visits + private workouts, and that's when the pundits can play catch up and see who the pros are higher on than the pundits + media consensus.
RE: To rise up boards there also have to be boards Â
I don't think teams keep a rolling big board throughout the season the way pundits do - they scout these guys during the seasons, compile all their raw data, and then spend these few months after that season arguing, reviewing the tape, meeting with the players officially, assigning final grades, and then setting their boards. As they set their boards I think that's when the leaks start to some degree, as well as the tea leaf reading based on which players are getting visits + private workouts, and that's when the pundits can play catch up and see who the pros are higher on than the pundits + media consensus.
Great post. Another thing to consider is that there are so many prospect workouts, pro days, etc where the media is around scouts and front office personnel. There is going to be countless discussions overheard or discussed with members of the media. This is when we start hearing about players rising or falling. What this really means is that the network college "expert" has a much different opinion on some players than the actual NFL teams. Instead of saying "Kiper was way off on those guys" we hear "player A is skyrocketing up draft boards".
I don't think teams keep a rolling big board throughout the season the way pundits do - they scout these guys during the seasons, compile all their raw data, and then spend these few months after that season arguing, reviewing the tape, meeting with the players officially, assigning final grades, and then setting their boards. As they set their boards I think that's when the leaks start to some degree, as well as the tea leaf reading based on which players are getting visits + private workouts, and that's when the pundits can play catch up and see who the pros are higher on than the pundits + media consensus.
Great post. Another thing to consider is that there are so many prospect workouts, pro days, etc where the media is around scouts and front office personnel. There is going to be countless discussions overheard or discussed with members of the media. This is when we start hearing about players rising or falling. What this really means is that the network college "expert" has a much different opinion on some players than the actual NFL teams. Instead of saying "Kiper was way off on those guys" we hear "player A is skyrocketing up draft boards".
Yeah "moving up boards" is actually another way of saying "higher on NFL boards than mine because i'm 1 random writer with a DVR trying to do what NFL teams spend millions of dollars and employ dozens of people to do".
to find the right QB. If they think Jones is the guy, then I’m good with it. He’s certainly an intriguing prospect. He’s got really nice mobility and enough accuracy to make him a decent NFL QB. He’s a smart guy as well. Needs some work, but don’t most QBs coming into the league?!
I like Jones a lot - though i'd prefer to get him without using #6 Â
whether that's with a slight trade down or a trade up from #17 - but there are a lot of teams looking for qb's after the #6 pick so if they really want him they might need to get him there.
If they like him, Haskins, and Lock but don't love any of them then maybe they can roll the dice and see if 1 starts sliding. But that seems risky. Miami, Denver, Cincy could all go QB. Though if that happens there could a top 10 player on our board sitting there at #17.
Ran in the 4.6's twice at his pro day. Combine #'s of 7.0 3 cone, 33 inch vert, and 120 inch broad jump are all respectable numbers as well. Even the 4.41 short shuttle.
From what I have understood teams dont constantly adjust boards. Players get final grades and then the board is set.
The way I have seen this talked about and in all honesty I cant remember where, that what happens is that the player isnt RISING its just that the media is always behind what the NFL and teams think about players.. and they get better information the close the draft gets..
I've watched everything on the guy I can get my hands on. Just can't find anything he does that is special. He has a solid well rounded skillset. The arm is ok but the release isn't very quick. The accuracy is concerning for a college prospect translating to the NFL. Good height but not that muscular. Doesn't fight guys off like say a Roethlisberger. Has some mobility but isn't that fast or elusive. Isn't great vs pressure. I see value in him as a developmental QB and to me that doesn't equal Round 1 and may not equal Top 50.
As always I'd support the pick but I'd be skeptical if we took him in Round 1 and worried if he was our #6 pick. Perhaps he's killing the off field stuff in interviews and the white board but you still have to be a football player first and excel on Sunday's. Bottomline is I'm not sold on him.
Seriously though, take away Cutcliffe, his sneaky athleticism and his size, and what do you have? He has never thrown for more than 3000 yards in a season, he has no zip on his passes,
But he doesn't turn the ball over. Okay, great. If I wanted a tall, sneaky athletic QB who doesn't turn the ball over and was coached by David Cutcliffe, I'd draft Erik Ainge.
I mostly agree.
Other than size, some athleticism (Jones is a long strider, so there is no short area quickness) and this dotted to the QB firm of Cutcliffe & Manning, there are ZERO plus attributes in Jones's game.
Frankly, I don't see any high first round QB talent in this draft pool. But at least I know if we choose any of the following, they have:
Murray has plus-plus quickness and speed and a plus arm.
Lock has a plus arm and plus velocity. An NFL arm to make every single throw.
Haskins has plus velocity.
I see Jones purely as a 2nd rounder - more likely 3rd rounder - who will be best suited in a warm weather climate or indoors. He's the milquetoast of this QB class.
RE: RE: To rise up boards there also have to be boards Â
I don't think teams keep a rolling big board throughout the season the way pundits do - they scout these guys during the seasons, compile all their raw data, and then spend these few months after that season arguing, reviewing the tape, meeting with the players officially, assigning final grades, and then setting their boards. As they set their boards I think that's when the leaks start to some degree, as well as the tea leaf reading based on which players are getting visits + private workouts, and that's when the pundits can play catch up and see who the pros are higher on than the pundits + media consensus.
Great post. Another thing to consider is that there are so many prospect workouts, pro days, etc where the media is around scouts and front office personnel. There is going to be countless discussions overheard or discussed with members of the media. This is when we start hearing about players rising or falling. What this really means is that the network college "expert" has a much different opinion on some players than the actual NFL teams. Instead of saying "Kiper was way off on those guys" we hear "player A is skyrocketing up draft boards".
Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
This is McShay's opinion and not any fact. Gil Brandt obviously feels different as well as others. As things get closer to the draft players do tend to rise. This is when the Mayfield rumors about him going #1 started when before he was viewed as the 3rd or even 4th best QB in that group.
He was number 1 on something like 14 NFL teams draft boards. Him and Darnold were viewed as the top 2 QBs by the NFL. The only place you'd see 3/4 is in the media with their ridiculous Johnny Manziel comparisons.
Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
This is McShay's opinion and not any fact. Gil Brandt obviously feels different as well as others. As things get closer to the draft players do tend to rise. This is when the Mayfield rumors about him going #1 started when before he was viewed as the 3rd or even 4th best QB in that group.
All of it was not an opinion. He clearly stated the scouts he spoke with Jones was not moving up on their draft boards.
But yes you are right when he said Jones moving up more likely media driven- that was an opinion. But it was the result of the fact he spoke with scouts that drove his opinion.
But if joeinpa is going to ask why do some of us not like Jones that much -- it's because of what we've heard for example from David Te and with our own eyes we believe McShay is probably right that it is media driven.
It's all opinion. I was just offering the possibility of not being high on Jones for rd 1. I think Jones would be a nice fit for an established team - especially with defense in which he can be the QB to not lose games.
OFC a guy like Jones fits with Barkley. Barkley fits with anyone. I would just prefer a higher ceiling guy. As long as I read what David Te says and what McShay has said and with my own eyes - I got to believe he is not a good pick for GMen in RD 1.
I've watched everything on the guy I can get my hands on. Just can't find anything he does that is special. He has a solid well rounded skillset. The arm is ok but the release isn't very quick. The accuracy is concerning for a college prospect translating to the NFL. Good height but not that muscular. Doesn't fight guys off like say a Roethlisberger. Has some mobility but isn't that fast or elusive. Isn't great vs pressure. I see value in him as a developmental QB and to me that doesn't equal Round 1 and may not equal Top 50.
As always I'd support the pick but I'd be skeptical if we took him in Round 1 and worried if he was our #6 pick. Perhaps he's killing the off field stuff in interviews and the white board but you still have to be a football player first and excel on Sunday's. Bottomline is I'm not sold on him.
No way Giants use pick 6 on a QB. Doesnt pass the sniff test at this point based on all that has been said. I think they are hoping Eli does well and resign him for 2020. Mara wouldn't have said what he said otherwise. Not spending the 6th pick on a Qb that could sit for 2 years.
As to rising up draft boards, that happens b/c scouts and insiders talk to each other and as people realize consensus builds around certain players teams then realize that they need to draft those players higher than the anticipated if they want to have a chance at getting them.
That said, still not convinced Giants don't view Qb's in a cluster and will gamble on one dropping at either 17 or 37. I see that more probable than going 6 - but don't see going 6 as improbable either.
Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
This is McShay's opinion and not any fact. Gil Brandt obviously feels different as well as others. As things get closer to the draft players do tend to rise. This is when the Mayfield rumors about him going #1 started when before he was viewed as the 3rd or even 4th best QB in that group.
All of it was not an opinion. He clearly stated the scouts he spoke with Jones was not moving up on their draft boards.
But yes you are right when he said Jones moving up more likely media driven- that was an opinion. But it was the result of the fact he spoke with scouts that drove his opinion.
But if joeinpa is going to ask why do some of us not like Jones that much -- it's because of what we've heard for example from David Te and with our own eyes we believe McShay is probably right that it is media driven.
It's all opinion. I was just offering the possibility of not being high on Jones for rd 1. I think Jones would be a nice fit for an established team - especially with defense in which he can be the QB to not lose games.
OFC a guy like Jones fits with Barkley. Barkley fits with anyone. I would just prefer a higher ceiling guy. As long as I read what David Te says and what McShay has said and with my own eyes - I got to believe he is not a good pick for GMen in RD 1.
I wasn’t trying to be critical of any anti Jones sentiment. Was genuinely interested in knowing what the strong conviction opposed to him is based on.
I am one of those wishy-washy fans on whom they should take. I change my mind ever time I read a convincing argument for certain players.
I want there to be a quarterback who s ready, because for me it s hard to get excited about the future of this team until that happens
But I have no idea which if any of these guys are worth a 1 pick.
DG had a very good draft last year. I'm not expecting this one to be Â
quite as good. Teams don't hit the 1st 4 picks the way he did year after year. But one thing he's done very well this year is keep people guessing about what he's going to do. We don't know which qb he really likes and if he's going to go after a qb at all. A lot of people have guessed and, when all is said and done, someone will have guessed right. But none of us really know.
his top players at every position on ESPN.com. I don't pay for Insider so I can't see the whole article, but the teaser they posted was on the QBs, and Kiper has him listed as his #1 in this year's draft.
but how bad IS his arm? It seems that is his biggest issue. Is it Chad Pennington bad?
Eli doesn't have a Mahomes-like cannon, but it is more than enough. How does he compare?
It's not bad at all. He has really good touch on the long stuff, but I guess the knock is he puts too much air under them. From what I saw it was good placement though. The only other thing was he falls in love with the primary option, and there was some concern on mid range sideline throws that there's some potential for INTs the was he places those. The arm strength stuff is not accurate in my view. His velocity is not bad.
Who knows though? LOL I thought last years draft was interesting, I have ZERO idea what to expect from us on draft day. It's kinda cool actually.
I agree Johnny 5 as I watched a bunch of Duke games,the arm strength thing is fake news has anybody ever seen the arc R Wilson puts on the ball this guy does the same ..... One problem I’ve noticed with Jones and the scouts I’m sure have seen it is when he gets in trouble he tends to try to throw against his body over the middle which we all know is a no no but a coach like Shurmur should be able to coach him out of that habit and tell him hey look Your not John Elway ,other than that I could see the Giants moving up from 17 to get him or take him at 6......
Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
Maybe he was never low on their boards to begin with. The Haskins love was media driven. Maybe the scouts knew all along that Jones a better prospect than Haskins.
his top players at every position on ESPN.com. I don't pay for Insider so I can't see the whole article, but the teaser they posted was on the QBs, and Kiper has him listed as his #1 in this year's draft.
Let the Kiper haters begin.
And who was the mentor that encouraged Kiper to become a draft analyst?
Seriously though, take away Cutcliffe, his sneaky athleticism and his size, and what do you have? He has never thrown for more than 3000 yards in a season, he has no zip on his passes,
But he doesn't turn the ball over. Okay, great. If I wanted a tall, sneaky athletic QB who doesn't turn the ball over and was coached by David Cutcliffe, I'd draft Erik Ainge.
I mostly agree.
Other than size, some athleticism (Jones is a long strider, so there is no short area quickness) and this dotted to the QB firm of Cutcliffe & Manning, there are ZERO plus attributes in Jones's game.
Frankly, I don't see any high first round QB talent in this draft pool. But at least I know if we choose any of the following, they have:
Murray has plus-plus quickness and speed and a plus arm.
Lock has a plus arm and plus velocity. An NFL arm to make every single throw.
Haskins has plus velocity.
I see Jones purely as a 2nd rounder - more likely 3rd rounder - who will be best suited in a warm weather climate or indoors. He's the milquetoast of this QB class.
his top players at every position on ESPN.com. I don't pay for Insider so I can't see the whole article, but the teaser they posted was on the QBs, and Kiper has him listed as his #1 in this year's draft.
Let the Kiper haters begin.
And who was the mentor that encouraged Kiper to become a draft analyst?
I've done a complete 180 on ... I've never had a prospect go from "remote thrower" to "I actually kinda want this guy" before. I hated the prospect, and the thought of using a 1st rounder on him at first, because all I did was google some scouting reports and watch a mediocre highlight video.
What changed my mind? Going back, actually watching his games (both the good and bad statistical games), and thinking for myself - if you do so with an open mind and can forget the Duke/Manning connections, you just might be surprised.
He's got size, his arm is actually quite good and excels in the intermediate pass game, he's got impressive mobility, and he is tough as nails. Quite frankly, he reminded me of a significantly more mobile Eli Manning - which I would sign up for in a heartbeat. I can't even count how many of his attempts were under duress, and he just stood there and delivered catchable balls and got right back up.
Another thing you'll notice if you can objectively watch his game, is that his OL and supporting cast were a disgrace. I'm talking Flowers/Hart level disgrace on the OL with WRs and TEs dropping passes (including TDs) left and right. The fact that Duke was even ranked at any point this season is remarkable - his supporting cast was embarrassing to watch.
It's been posted before i'm sure, but I've linked a 10-15 minute that sums up what i've been saying. In short, if he had a team like Haskins - his statistics would've been incredible. Instead, you'll find him escaping pressure and delivering passes that literally go through receivers' hands in the endzone or bounce off their helmets. Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
ago on Jones, bu media folks, before the combine and private workouts, and created a decision. Now they are unwilling to change that narrative, even in the face of facts due to teams finalizing their analysis.
The funny thing is Jones was considered by many on here a must have guy at the beginning of his senior year. I remember threads on him.
When you are on Duke an playing against Clemson, its much harder to get great stats than when you are on Ohio State playing against Rutgers. Jones was always under attack, had his WR's dropping passes all over, and had no running game.
Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
This is McShay's opinion and not any fact. Gil Brandt obviously feels different as well as others. As things get closer to the draft players do tend to rise. This is when the Mayfield rumors about him going #1 started when before he was viewed as the 3rd or even 4th best QB in that group.
All of it was not an opinion. He clearly stated the scouts he spoke with Jones was not moving up on their draft boards.
But yes you are right when he said Jones moving up more likely media driven- that was an opinion. But it was the result of the fact he spoke with scouts that drove his opinion.
But if joeinpa is going to ask why do some of us not like Jones that much -- it's because of what we've heard for example from David Te and with our own eyes we believe McShay is probably right that it is media driven.
It's all opinion. I was just offering the possibility of not being high on Jones for rd 1. I think Jones would be a nice fit for an established team - especially with defense in which he can be the QB to not lose games.
OFC a guy like Jones fits with Barkley. Barkley fits with anyone. I would just prefer a higher ceiling guy. As long as I read what David Te says and what McShay has said and with my own eyes - I got to believe he is not a good pick for GMen in RD 1.
I wasn’t trying to be critical of any anti Jones sentiment. Was genuinely interested in knowing what the strong conviction opposed to him is based on.
I am one of those wishy-washy fans on whom they should take. I change my mind ever time I read a convincing argument for certain players.
I want there to be a quarterback who s ready, because for me it s hard to get excited about the future of this team until that happens
But I have no idea which if any of these guys are worth a 1 pick.
And I hope you realize my reply wasn't being mean either. IMO juts don't believe the hype and watch the guy for yourself.
On this very thread someone was referencing Mel Kiper and how Jones might be #1. Well just a few days earlier I saw Kiper on TV and he had Jones going to the giants at 17. Maybe in a few days he changed his mind. Or maybe the news from the poster he saw was fake news etc.
ANyways for some of us who don't like him going to GMEN - just keep your mind open that we're not saying something bizarre. On this very site you got David Te Davis Te -- not BBI POSTERS analysis - not that high on him. He doesn't say he stinks etc. But keep an open mind that it isn't etched in stone that Jones is moving up on boards nor is it etched in stone he'll be "the next Eli."
Just keep in mind he actually might not be worthy/live up to CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBER QB. OFC any qb can win if for example you have an amazing defense.
I've done a complete 180 on ... I've never had a prospect go from "remote thrower" to "I actually kinda want this guy" before. I hated the prospect, and the thought of using a 1st rounder on him at first, because all I did was google some scouting reports and watch a mediocre highlight video.
What changed my mind? Going back, actually watching his games (both the good and bad statistical games), and thinking for myself - if you do so with an open mind and can forget the Duke/Manning connections, you just might be surprised.
He's got size, his arm is actually quite good and excels in the intermediate pass game, he's got impressive mobility, and he is tough as nails. Quite frankly, he reminded me of a significantly more mobile Eli Manning - which I would sign up for in a heartbeat. I can't even count how many of his attempts were under duress, and he just stood there and delivered catchable balls and got right back up.
Another thing you'll notice if you can objectively watch his game, is that his OL and supporting cast were a disgrace. I'm talking Flowers/Hart level disgrace on the OL with WRs and TEs dropping passes (including TDs) left and right. The fact that Duke was even ranked at any point this season is remarkable - his supporting cast was embarrassing to watch.
It's been posted before i'm sure, but I've linked a 10-15 minute that sums up what i've been saying. In short, if he had a team like Haskins - his statistics would've been incredible. Instead, you'll find him escaping pressure and delivering passes that literally go through receivers' hands in the endzone or bounce off their helmets. Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
I watched a few of Jones games and I think your comments are accurate, but while he is more mobile than Eli, his deep ball isn't as good.
I'm not surprised the Giants might be interested. Â
This Daniel Jones hatred is quite dumb to be honest. I hear idiots all the time say: "He's not accurate, he doesn't have a strong arm". Those people are just clueless. He is very accurate, he throws with great anticipation. I've seen him in game film (I've actually watched him play) go up to the line of scrimmage and start communicating with his WRs (audibles), change his protections, point at defenders for his offensive linemen. You instantly think: "There's that Manning DNA in him". (aka Cutcliff coaching).
His completion percentage was 60% this year but his WRS were AWFUL. They dropped 38 passes. That amount of drops is astronomical. He threw 392 passes on the season. That's 10% of his pass attempts were dropped. His WRs literally subtracted at least 5% off of his completion percentage and subtracted hundreds of yards off his potential passing yard totals. There were passes where he threw a ball 50 yards through the air and the WR was wide open, the ball hit him right in his hands, and it was dropped. It was actually frustrating watching his tape because his team was holding him back. He carried his team to 8 wins and a bowl victory. Without Daniel Jones on Duke, their team would have been trash. They actually had to modify their offense because of their lack of an offensive line and their trash WRs. They went to a more compact style offense. He had to get the ball out of his hands quickly because of his line. Say what you want about him... but I've actually watched him play and I'll tell you right now. I wouldn't be shocked to see Belichick grab him because he can play the same style of game that Tom Brady plays. Lots of short routes, dink and dunk, then hammer a 50 yard pass down the field in your WR's bread basket. He has athleticism. I've seen him throw on the run while being chased out of the pocket. He ran a 4.67 (unoffcial) at his pro day. I've heard people say that he had just about a flawless pro day. He showed lots of zip on the ball. Showing that he has arm strength.
I've done a complete 180 on ... I've never had a prospect go from "remote thrower" to "I actually kinda want this guy" before. I hated the prospect, and the thought of using a 1st rounder on him at first, because all I did was google some scouting reports and watch a mediocre highlight video.
What changed my mind? Going back, actually watching his games (both the good and bad statistical games), and thinking for myself - if you do so with an open mind and can forget the Duke/Manning connections, you just might be surprised.
He's got size, his arm is actually quite good and excels in the intermediate pass game, he's got impressive mobility, and he is tough as nails. Quite frankly, he reminded me of a significantly more mobile Eli Manning - which I would sign up for in a heartbeat. I can't even count how many of his attempts were under duress, and he just stood there and delivered catchable balls and got right back up.
Another thing you'll notice if you can objectively watch his game, is that his OL and supporting cast were a disgrace. I'm talking Flowers/Hart level disgrace on the OL with WRs and TEs dropping passes (including TDs) left and right. The fact that Duke was even ranked at any point this season is remarkable - his supporting cast was embarrassing to watch.
It's been posted before i'm sure, but I've linked a 10-15 minute that sums up what i've been saying. In short, if he had a team like Haskins - his statistics would've been incredible. Instead, you'll find him escaping pressure and delivering passes that literally go through receivers' hands in the endzone or bounce off their helmets. Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
This about sums up my experience with Jones as well. I was underwhelmed by him when Miami played against him (in a monsoon) but upon further reflection I didn't realize just how bad his cast was.
If we draft him, I’ll root like he’ll, but I’m not holding my breath.
I think my only other mention was that Gil Brandt had him as the #2 QB in the draft.
But if you check out the other pundits, he's not alone.
Arm strength was disbunked. The onlt ding I've seen is accuracy on the long ball, which could be him or the WR.
Eli doesn't have a Mahomes-like cannon, but it is more than enough. How does he compare?
There was a compelling podcast discussion the other day between Evan Silva and Greg Gabriel about the Giants and what they're doing at QB. Gabriel (who has a lot of history with the Giants) read quite a bit into Chris Mara's attendance at Daniel Jones's workout (but not Lock's).
There are two key concepts/bits of info from this offseason on this subject, IMO:
1. jtgiants - the #6 pick will be a defensive player
2. Sy - if the Giants want Jones, they're not going to wait until #17 to pick him
Gabriel also said something else on the podcast...Jones would probably require a trade up from #17 to get him.
Eli doesn't have a Mahomes-like cannon, but it is more than enough. How does he compare?
It's not bad at all. He has really good touch on the long stuff, but I guess the knock is he puts too much air under them. From what I saw it was good placement though. The only other thing was he falls in love with the primary option, and there was some concern on mid range sideline throws that there's some potential for INTs the was he places those. The arm strength stuff is not accurate in my view. His velocity is not bad.
Who knows though? LOL I thought last years draft was interesting, I have ZERO idea what to expect from us on draft day. It's kinda cool actually.
Jones - ( New Window )
The worry on Haskins was his receivers were awesome. Jones had a few JAGs, many that won't sniff the NFL and dropped a lot of balls.
But he doesn't turn the ball over. Okay, great. If I wanted a tall, sneaky athletic QB who doesn't turn the ball over and was coached by David Cutcliffe, I'd draft Erik Ainge.
He also had a poor OL, his receivers dropped a ton of balls, and it's a weak QB class.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
OMG dude. Can you drop the Eli stuff every other post? What in the world does Jones climbing up NFL draft boards have to do with Eli Manning? Let it go man.
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After all, he's been to the Manning football camps and he and Eli are chums.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
OMG dude. Can you drop the Eli stuff every other post? What in the world does Jones climbing up NFL draft boards have to do with Eli Manning? Let it go man.
There is a reason they're likely to draft Jones and its not talent.
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In comment 14389050 Pep22 said:
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After all, he's been to the Manning football camps and he and Eli are chums.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
OMG dude. Can you drop the Eli stuff every other post? What in the world does Jones climbing up NFL draft boards have to do with Eli Manning? Let it go man.
There is a reason they're likely to draft Jones and its not talent.
Again, what does that have to do with the original post, that he is high on other peoples boards? Do you think you know more than Gil Brandt et al?
People think QBs magically turn shit birds to all stars. They may make them better but you still need talented players.
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
I don't see what separates Jones from a guy like Eric Dungey, another guy who I don't think is anything more than at most a backup QB prospect in the NFL.
btw, their stats were nearly identical
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
Perhaps he just meant stability at the qb position
IF he is the guy you draft him at 6 and figure out the rest later.
Now, I am not thrilled about Jones and don’t like a lot of what I read or hear about him as a player but I am not an expert. If the Giants love him the only move is to draft him at #6.
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In comment 14389052 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 14389050 Pep22 said:
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After all, he's been to the Manning football camps and he and Eli are chums.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
OMG dude. Can you drop the Eli stuff every other post? What in the world does Jones climbing up NFL draft boards have to do with Eli Manning? Let it go man.
There is a reason they're likely to draft Jones and its not talent.
Again, what does that have to do with the original post, that he is high on other peoples boards? Do you think you know more than Gil Brandt et al?
I'm not alone. There are many who think he's the 4th best QB in the draft. Basically, a Ryan Tannehill type. Nobody looks at Jones and thinks, now there's a guy that can sling it.
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
I agree with most of your post but I don't think what DG said is silly. Doing what Accorsi did for the franchise should be the goal, and him saying that's what he wants to do is just acknowledging that IMO.
I prefer that to him saying the challenge is too high a standard.
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
Don't forget, historic durability....that aspect is often over looked when discussing Eli, very very rare.
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around him. Guys like Leinert can throw for all kinds of yards when USC was pumping out 1st rd picks at OL and WR. Jones played for Duke, who I don't think has any other pro prospect on its roster (I may be slightly wrong here but you get my point). Then he has to go play Clemson and others with superior talent. So completion rates, wins, even passing yards need to be calibrated. This is also why its critical to get these players our of their environment, and put them side by side. This is the only way to really judge.
I don't see what separates Jones from a guy like Eric Dungey, another guy who I don't think is anything more than at most a backup QB prospect in the NFL.
btw, their stats were nearly identical
First off, I wasn't talking about Dungy and don't know much about him. I was talking about Jones, so I don't see what your response is about. Second, a quick reviewing of multiple draft sites shows Dungy never even in the top 20 of college QB's this year (most even have him lower than 30). So why are you comparing a QB that all scouts have between #2-#4, with a guy who won't even be drafted (and may not even get invited to try out as a FA somewhere)? Are you right and every scout in the NFL wrong?
We can't be trying to recreate the past with the next QB.
Nothing wrong with what DG said. They all generalize like that. Of course he’d like a 2004 redux, but to me, that’s GM-speak. He is not going to reach for a QB he and Shurmur do not believe are franchise-worthy. If he does, that would really set us back. A fireable offense, imo
The odds are overwhelming that the next QB we get (Jones, Haskins, Fromm, whomever) is not going to be an elite player. We have to be willing to accept that reality the moment it becomes apparent, and not expect him to make the jump that Eli made circa 2007.
This process demands clear eyes and objective minds, otherwise we could end up waiting six years for a Ryan Tannehill type to become Eli Manning.
I'm not alone. There are many who think he's the 4th best QB in the draft. Basically, a Ryan Tannehill type. Nobody looks at Jones and thinks, now there's a guy that can sling it.
Not a Jones guy, myself, but Pep who cares if you are not alone? You are not Gil Brandt or a professional scout. I can understand you are not impressed or you don't "see it" with him. But that is merely your opinion(and some other fans). I have read he has an accurate and strong arm on short and intermediate range throws. What? All of a sudden his arm strength disappears on deep balls? People say he "floats" it, but is it just a technique failure?
We know Jones isn't moving up on David Te's board so far.
Pardon the sarcasm, but it seems to me that the organization has chosen a self inflicted "180" since the Geno Smith start. Rather than thinking strategically, they've gotten soft. The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more they're damaging Manning's legacy. Meanwhile...predictably, its been a seemingly endless run of poor results.
I don’t want Jones or any other QB in this year’s (or from last year’s) draft.
But if you’re insinuating that you wouldn’t want Eli Manning (redux) at the beginning of his career, you’re crazy.
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
IF he is the guy you draft him at 6 and figure out the rest later.
Now, I am not thrilled about Jones and don’t like a lot of what I read or hear about him as a player but I am not an expert. If the Giants love him the only move is to draft him at #6.
You’re never going to win anything without a complete team. So get the best you can at the appropriate time. The margin of difference greatly favors the DL guy over QB this year and next year’s QB over this year’s QB. Either way, you have the same holes to fill..
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
Rising up draft boards = dissonance between Mock drafters(sports writers) and the late leaks of how the NFL views these prospects. It happens every year.
He screams "average" and "safe" to me. Not really seeing the upside. I also didn't watch Duke play on a weekly basis... but I haven't seen a whole lot of analysts suggest 6th overall would be an appropriate spot to draft Jones. If anything, it feels like it'd be a major reach.
There will be better defensive players on the board there. I just don't like or see the value and it's the one pick (aside from maybe Gary) that would bug me.
If they decide he's the guy, I'll root for him and hope they're right. I just don't see it and wouldn't be thrilled.
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
When a person is "rising" close to the draft it is more a product of the media collecting more information from teams about their true opinions on players. We are now hearing that several teams actually like Daniel Jones over Dwayne Haskins.
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that someone can be rising up a draft board on April 16th with the draft 2 weeks away seems like something is broken with the process (if that's legit).
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
Rising up draft boards = dissonance between Mock drafters(sports writers) and the late leaks of how the NFL views these prospects. It happens every year.
Good point, makes sense.
It probably explains the December 2007 mock draft with Andre Woodson in the first round. As we know the Giants took him in the 6th.
Damontre Moore was in many 1st rounds of mocks drafts in February of his draft year, as we know he went in the 3rd.
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that someone can be rising up a draft board on April 16th with the draft 2 weeks away seems like something is broken with the process (if that's legit).
None of these people have played a meaningful football down in 90 days by draft day, some in 120 or more.
When a person is "rising" close to the draft it is more a product of the media collecting more information from teams about their true opinions on players. We are now hearing that several teams actually like Daniel Jones over Dwayne Haskins.
Yeah, makes sense, still seems a little bizarre to me, but teams also leak a lot of false stuff around now.
Anyone who saw Russell Wilson in college knew he had the IT factor and would be a player on the next level. He still fell to the 3rd round because of his height. But here we are years later with him as the highest paid player in the game and former Super Bowl Champion.
Don't give these FO guys too much credit, some of these online guys live and breathe college football know more than the talking heads you watch on TV.
Great post. Another thing to consider is that there are so many prospect workouts, pro days, etc where the media is around scouts and front office personnel. There is going to be countless discussions overheard or discussed with members of the media. This is when we start hearing about players rising or falling. What this really means is that the network college "expert" has a much different opinion on some players than the actual NFL teams. Instead of saying "Kiper was way off on those guys" we hear "player A is skyrocketing up draft boards".
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I don't think teams keep a rolling big board throughout the season the way pundits do - they scout these guys during the seasons, compile all their raw data, and then spend these few months after that season arguing, reviewing the tape, meeting with the players officially, assigning final grades, and then setting their boards. As they set their boards I think that's when the leaks start to some degree, as well as the tea leaf reading based on which players are getting visits + private workouts, and that's when the pundits can play catch up and see who the pros are higher on than the pundits + media consensus.
Great post. Another thing to consider is that there are so many prospect workouts, pro days, etc where the media is around scouts and front office personnel. There is going to be countless discussions overheard or discussed with members of the media. This is when we start hearing about players rising or falling. What this really means is that the network college "expert" has a much different opinion on some players than the actual NFL teams. Instead of saying "Kiper was way off on those guys" we hear "player A is skyrocketing up draft boards".
Yeah "moving up boards" is actually another way of saying "higher on NFL boards than mine because i'm 1 random writer with a DVR trying to do what NFL teams spend millions of dollars and employ dozens of people to do".
If they like him, Haskins, and Lock but don't love any of them then maybe they can roll the dice and see if 1 starts sliding. But that seems risky. Miami, Denver, Cincy could all go QB. Though if that happens there could a top 10 player on our board sitting there at #17.
And NFL size + athleticism + toughness. His arm may not be the biggest but he can get the ball downfield and he flashes good touch.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
Ran in the 4.6's twice at his pro day. Combine #'s of 7.0 3 cone, 33 inch vert, and 120 inch broad jump are all respectable numbers as well. Even the 4.41 short shuttle.
That's also my hope. I also don't think there's a huge dropoff to Oliver/Sweat/Wilkins from that first grouping. All are extremely impressive.
Good, good. Let the hate drive traffic to my site...
The way I have seen this talked about and in all honesty I cant remember where, that what happens is that the player isnt RISING its just that the media is always behind what the NFL and teams think about players.. and they get better information the close the draft gets..
As always I'd support the pick but I'd be skeptical if we took him in Round 1 and worried if he was our #6 pick. Perhaps he's killing the off field stuff in interviews and the white board but you still have to be a football player first and excel on Sunday's. Bottomline is I'm not sold on him.
But he doesn't turn the ball over. Okay, great. If I wanted a tall, sneaky athletic QB who doesn't turn the ball over and was coached by David Cutcliffe, I'd draft Erik Ainge.
I mostly agree.
Other than size, some athleticism (Jones is a long strider, so there is no short area quickness) and this dotted to the QB firm of Cutcliffe & Manning, there are ZERO plus attributes in Jones's game.
Frankly, I don't see any high first round QB talent in this draft pool. But at least I know if we choose any of the following, they have:
Murray has plus-plus quickness and speed and a plus arm.
Lock has a plus arm and plus velocity. An NFL arm to make every single throw.
Haskins has plus velocity.
I see Jones purely as a 2nd rounder - more likely 3rd rounder - who will be best suited in a warm weather climate or indoors. He's the milquetoast of this QB class.
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I don't think teams keep a rolling big board throughout the season the way pundits do - they scout these guys during the seasons, compile all their raw data, and then spend these few months after that season arguing, reviewing the tape, meeting with the players officially, assigning final grades, and then setting their boards. As they set their boards I think that's when the leaks start to some degree, as well as the tea leaf reading based on which players are getting visits + private workouts, and that's when the pundits can play catch up and see who the pros are higher on than the pundits + media consensus.
Great post. Another thing to consider is that there are so many prospect workouts, pro days, etc where the media is around scouts and front office personnel. There is going to be countless discussions overheard or discussed with members of the media. This is when we start hearing about players rising or falling. What this really means is that the network college "expert" has a much different opinion on some players than the actual NFL teams. Instead of saying "Kiper was way off on those guys" we hear "player A is skyrocketing up draft boards".
Agree with both posts.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
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Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
This is McShay's opinion and not any fact. Gil Brandt obviously feels different as well as others. As things get closer to the draft players do tend to rise. This is when the Mayfield rumors about him going #1 started when before he was viewed as the 3rd or even 4th best QB in that group.
Looms large The Dave Brown storm cloud does.
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In comment 14389338 joeinpa said:
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Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
This is McShay's opinion and not any fact. Gil Brandt obviously feels different as well as others. As things get closer to the draft players do tend to rise. This is when the Mayfield rumors about him going #1 started when before he was viewed as the 3rd or even 4th best QB in that group.
All of it was not an opinion. He clearly stated the scouts he spoke with Jones was not moving up on their draft boards.
But yes you are right when he said Jones moving up more likely media driven- that was an opinion. But it was the result of the fact he spoke with scouts that drove his opinion.
But if joeinpa is going to ask why do some of us not like Jones that much -- it's because of what we've heard for example from David Te and with our own eyes we believe McShay is probably right that it is media driven.
It's all opinion. I was just offering the possibility of not being high on Jones for rd 1. I think Jones would be a nice fit for an established team - especially with defense in which he can be the QB to not lose games.
OFC a guy like Jones fits with Barkley. Barkley fits with anyone. I would just prefer a higher ceiling guy. As long as I read what David Te says and what McShay has said and with my own eyes - I got to believe he is not a good pick for GMen in RD 1.
As always I'd support the pick but I'd be skeptical if we took him in Round 1 and worried if he was our #6 pick. Perhaps he's killing the off field stuff in interviews and the white board but you still have to be a football player first and excel on Sunday's. Bottomline is I'm not sold on him.
No way Giants use pick 6 on a QB. Doesnt pass the sniff test at this point based on all that has been said. I think they are hoping Eli does well and resign him for 2020. Mara wouldn't have said what he said otherwise. Not spending the 6th pick on a Qb that could sit for 2 years.
That said, still not convinced Giants don't view Qb's in a cluster and will gamble on one dropping at either 17 or 37. I see that more probable than going 6 - but don't see going 6 as improbable either.
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In comment 14389429 giantstock said:
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In comment 14389338 joeinpa said:
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Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
This is McShay's opinion and not any fact. Gil Brandt obviously feels different as well as others. As things get closer to the draft players do tend to rise. This is when the Mayfield rumors about him going #1 started when before he was viewed as the 3rd or even 4th best QB in that group.
All of it was not an opinion. He clearly stated the scouts he spoke with Jones was not moving up on their draft boards.
But yes you are right when he said Jones moving up more likely media driven- that was an opinion. But it was the result of the fact he spoke with scouts that drove his opinion.
But if joeinpa is going to ask why do some of us not like Jones that much -- it's because of what we've heard for example from David Te and with our own eyes we believe McShay is probably right that it is media driven.
It's all opinion. I was just offering the possibility of not being high on Jones for rd 1. I think Jones would be a nice fit for an established team - especially with defense in which he can be the QB to not lose games.
OFC a guy like Jones fits with Barkley. Barkley fits with anyone. I would just prefer a higher ceiling guy. As long as I read what David Te says and what McShay has said and with my own eyes - I got to believe he is not a good pick for GMen in RD 1.
I wasn’t trying to be critical of any anti Jones sentiment. Was genuinely interested in knowing what the strong conviction opposed to him is based on.
I am one of those wishy-washy fans on whom they should take. I change my mind ever time I read a convincing argument for certain players.
I want there to be a quarterback who s ready, because for me it s hard to get excited about the future of this team until that happens
But I have no idea which if any of these guys are worth a 1 pick.
Let the Kiper haters begin.
He was his 34th ranked player.
Sweat at #17. Ranked #13.
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but how bad IS his arm? It seems that is his biggest issue. Is it Chad Pennington bad?
Eli doesn't have a Mahomes-like cannon, but it is more than enough. How does he compare?
It's not bad at all. He has really good touch on the long stuff, but I guess the knock is he puts too much air under them. From what I saw it was good placement though. The only other thing was he falls in love with the primary option, and there was some concern on mid range sideline throws that there's some potential for INTs the was he places those. The arm strength stuff is not accurate in my view. His velocity is not bad.
Who knows though? LOL I thought last years draft was interesting, I have ZERO idea what to expect from us on draft day. It's kinda cool actually.
I agree Johnny 5 as I watched a bunch of Duke games,the arm strength thing is fake news has anybody ever seen the arc R Wilson puts on the ball this guy does the same ..... One problem I’ve noticed with Jones and the scouts I’m sure have seen it is when he gets in trouble he tends to try to throw against his body over the middle which we all know is a no no but a coach like Shurmur should be able to coach him out of that habit and tell him hey look Your not John Elway ,other than that I could see the Giants moving up from 17 to get him or take him at 6......
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Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
Let the Kiper haters begin.
And who was the mentor that encouraged Kiper to become a draft analyst?
Ernie Accorsi.
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Seriously though, take away Cutcliffe, his sneaky athleticism and his size, and what do you have? He has never thrown for more than 3000 yards in a season, he has no zip on his passes,
But he doesn't turn the ball over. Okay, great. If I wanted a tall, sneaky athletic QB who doesn't turn the ball over and was coached by David Cutcliffe, I'd draft Erik Ainge.
I mostly agree.
Other than size, some athleticism (Jones is a long strider, so there is no short area quickness) and this dotted to the QB firm of Cutcliffe & Manning, there are ZERO plus attributes in Jones's game.
Frankly, I don't see any high first round QB talent in this draft pool. But at least I know if we choose any of the following, they have:
Murray has plus-plus quickness and speed and a plus arm.
Lock has a plus arm and plus velocity. An NFL arm to make every single throw.
Haskins has plus velocity.
I see Jones purely as a 2nd rounder - more likely 3rd rounder - who will be best suited in a warm weather climate or indoors. He's the milquetoast of this QB class.
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his top players at every position on ESPN.com. I don't pay for Insider so I can't see the whole article, but the teaser they posted was on the QBs, and Kiper has him listed as his #1 in this year's draft.
Let the Kiper haters begin.
And who was the mentor that encouraged Kiper to become a draft analyst?
Ernie Accorsi.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
The professional people do get things wrong. Fans and the media didn’t have Flowers as high as the Giants has him.
What changed my mind? Going back, actually watching his games (both the good and bad statistical games), and thinking for myself - if you do so with an open mind and can forget the Duke/Manning connections, you just might be surprised.
He's got size, his arm is actually quite good and excels in the intermediate pass game, he's got impressive mobility, and he is tough as nails. Quite frankly, he reminded me of a significantly more mobile Eli Manning - which I would sign up for in a heartbeat. I can't even count how many of his attempts were under duress, and he just stood there and delivered catchable balls and got right back up.
Another thing you'll notice if you can objectively watch his game, is that his OL and supporting cast were a disgrace. I'm talking Flowers/Hart level disgrace on the OL with WRs and TEs dropping passes (including TDs) left and right. The fact that Duke was even ranked at any point this season is remarkable - his supporting cast was embarrassing to watch.
It's been posted before i'm sure, but I've linked a 10-15 minute that sums up what i've been saying. In short, if he had a team like Haskins - his statistics would've been incredible. Instead, you'll find him escaping pressure and delivering passes that literally go through receivers' hands in the endzone or bounce off their helmets.
Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
The funny thing is Jones was considered by many on here a must have guy at the beginning of his senior year. I remember threads on him.
When you are on Duke an playing against Clemson, its much harder to get great stats than when you are on Ohio State playing against Rutgers. Jones was always under attack, had his WR's dropping passes all over, and had no running game.
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In comment 14389476 Deejboy said:
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In comment 14389429 giantstock said:
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In comment 14389338 joeinpa said:
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Hard to understand how some fans can speak with such conviction their opposition to this kid.
If professional people see him rising what is your conviction based on?
That's because you believe "he is moving up on draft boards" while there is a possibility he isn't because he's just not that good to be rising in a manner some think?
McShay said after he spoke to the scouts he knew they said he wasn't moving up their boards and as a result he surmised that his supposed "moving up" is media driven and not scout driven.
This is McShay's opinion and not any fact. Gil Brandt obviously feels different as well as others. As things get closer to the draft players do tend to rise. This is when the Mayfield rumors about him going #1 started when before he was viewed as the 3rd or even 4th best QB in that group.
All of it was not an opinion. He clearly stated the scouts he spoke with Jones was not moving up on their draft boards.
But yes you are right when he said Jones moving up more likely media driven- that was an opinion. But it was the result of the fact he spoke with scouts that drove his opinion.
But if joeinpa is going to ask why do some of us not like Jones that much -- it's because of what we've heard for example from David Te and with our own eyes we believe McShay is probably right that it is media driven.
It's all opinion. I was just offering the possibility of not being high on Jones for rd 1. I think Jones would be a nice fit for an established team - especially with defense in which he can be the QB to not lose games.
OFC a guy like Jones fits with Barkley. Barkley fits with anyone. I would just prefer a higher ceiling guy. As long as I read what David Te says and what McShay has said and with my own eyes - I got to believe he is not a good pick for GMen in RD 1.
I wasn’t trying to be critical of any anti Jones sentiment. Was genuinely interested in knowing what the strong conviction opposed to him is based on.
I am one of those wishy-washy fans on whom they should take. I change my mind ever time I read a convincing argument for certain players.
I want there to be a quarterback who s ready, because for me it s hard to get excited about the future of this team until that happens
But I have no idea which if any of these guys are worth a 1 pick.
And I hope you realize my reply wasn't being mean either. IMO juts don't believe the hype and watch the guy for yourself.
On this very thread someone was referencing Mel Kiper and how Jones might be #1. Well just a few days earlier I saw Kiper on TV and he had Jones going to the giants at 17. Maybe in a few days he changed his mind. Or maybe the news from the poster he saw was fake news etc.
ANyways for some of us who don't like him going to GMEN - just keep your mind open that we're not saying something bizarre. On this very site you got David Te Davis Te -- not BBI POSTERS analysis - not that high on him. He doesn't say he stinks etc. But keep an open mind that it isn't etched in stone that Jones is moving up on boards nor is it etched in stone he'll be "the next Eli."
Just keep in mind he actually might not be worthy/live up to CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBER QB. OFC any qb can win if for example you have an amazing defense.
What changed my mind? Going back, actually watching his games (both the good and bad statistical games), and thinking for myself - if you do so with an open mind and can forget the Duke/Manning connections, you just might be surprised.
He's got size, his arm is actually quite good and excels in the intermediate pass game, he's got impressive mobility, and he is tough as nails. Quite frankly, he reminded me of a significantly more mobile Eli Manning - which I would sign up for in a heartbeat. I can't even count how many of his attempts were under duress, and he just stood there and delivered catchable balls and got right back up.
Another thing you'll notice if you can objectively watch his game, is that his OL and supporting cast were a disgrace. I'm talking Flowers/Hart level disgrace on the OL with WRs and TEs dropping passes (including TDs) left and right. The fact that Duke was even ranked at any point this season is remarkable - his supporting cast was embarrassing to watch.
It's been posted before i'm sure, but I've linked a 10-15 minute that sums up what i've been saying. In short, if he had a team like Haskins - his statistics would've been incredible. Instead, you'll find him escaping pressure and delivering passes that literally go through receivers' hands in the endzone or bounce off their helmets. Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
I watched a few of Jones games and I think your comments are accurate, but while he is more mobile than Eli, his deep ball isn't as good.
His completion percentage was 60% this year but his WRS were AWFUL. They dropped 38 passes. That amount of drops is astronomical. He threw 392 passes on the season. That's 10% of his pass attempts were dropped. His WRs literally subtracted at least 5% off of his completion percentage and subtracted hundreds of yards off his potential passing yard totals. There were passes where he threw a ball 50 yards through the air and the WR was wide open, the ball hit him right in his hands, and it was dropped. It was actually frustrating watching his tape because his team was holding him back. He carried his team to 8 wins and a bowl victory. Without Daniel Jones on Duke, their team would have been trash. They actually had to modify their offense because of their lack of an offensive line and their trash WRs. They went to a more compact style offense. He had to get the ball out of his hands quickly because of his line. Say what you want about him... but I've actually watched him play and I'll tell you right now. I wouldn't be shocked to see Belichick grab him because he can play the same style of game that Tom Brady plays. Lots of short routes, dink and dunk, then hammer a 50 yard pass down the field in your WR's bread basket. He has athleticism. I've seen him throw on the run while being chased out of the pocket. He ran a 4.67 (unoffcial) at his pro day. I've heard people say that he had just about a flawless pro day. He showed lots of zip on the ball. Showing that he has arm strength.
What changed my mind? Going back, actually watching his games (both the good and bad statistical games), and thinking for myself - if you do so with an open mind and can forget the Duke/Manning connections, you just might be surprised.
He's got size, his arm is actually quite good and excels in the intermediate pass game, he's got impressive mobility, and he is tough as nails. Quite frankly, he reminded me of a significantly more mobile Eli Manning - which I would sign up for in a heartbeat. I can't even count how many of his attempts were under duress, and he just stood there and delivered catchable balls and got right back up.
Another thing you'll notice if you can objectively watch his game, is that his OL and supporting cast were a disgrace. I'm talking Flowers/Hart level disgrace on the OL with WRs and TEs dropping passes (including TDs) left and right. The fact that Duke was even ranked at any point this season is remarkable - his supporting cast was embarrassing to watch.
It's been posted before i'm sure, but I've linked a 10-15 minute that sums up what i've been saying. In short, if he had a team like Haskins - his statistics would've been incredible. Instead, you'll find him escaping pressure and delivering passes that literally go through receivers' hands in the endzone or bounce off their helmets. Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
This about sums up my experience with Jones as well. I was underwhelmed by him when Miami played against him (in a monsoon) but upon further reflection I didn't realize just how bad his cast was.