Then why take a visit and send that many people to his pro day? Don't see the logic.
The piece you're missing is he could very well not be graded high enough for #6.
Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
Any chatter on Darron Lee? Been disappointing for the jets, however, he's still young, a decent coverage backer and the Jets do not really have a spot for him. Can't imagine it would take more than one of our 5ths to grab him and he's still on his rookie deal so the cap hit is minimal.
Could he be a fit in the moneybacker role that we wanted D Bucannon for?
I'd be happy with either QB if Shurmur thinks they fit what he wants to do.
This is something that a lot of people (especially the prickish "QB experts" on this site) seem to forget. If the Giants are going to draft a QB, its not going to be solely based on what the QB is now. Its going to be based on what they think the QB can become and they have a guy in Shurmur who's done a pretty good job with development. Its an aspect of the evaluation process that no one outside the organization would even have the slightest insight into.
You disagreeing with it doesn't erase the rest. I can't definitively say "you're wrong", I can only go by track records from the past. I'll go with mine and jt's over yours, no offense.
just think it's going to be absolutely crazy on draft night, which of course is exciting. There are a lot of plausible scenarios that can't be executed until the draft begins.
I still say the Giants will stay at #6 and take the best defensive player, but I could see a small trade down to maybe #10.
As far as trading up from #17 to #9, I think that's extremely unlikely because of the cost compared to the talent level of Lock, Haskins, or Jones. Two of those three could also go to Denver and Cincinnati at #10 and #11. Teams may then start a bidding war to move up for the one who remains. I don't see DG being a participant. I'd rather trade #17 to NE for #32, and their second and third.
Then why take a visit and send that many people to his pro day? Don't see the logic.
Simple to scout him. The Giants took visits and personally visited Darnold, Rosen, and Allen last year. They even had dinner with Rosen. This is nothing new.
Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
really wish I could embrace Shurmur as the coach. I do think my thought processes in general align with Gettleman (build the trenches, rush the QB, etc.) but I'm just not that big of a fan of Shurmur's offense. Despite the media driven BS of Jones being Eli 2.0 I don't see it at all other than in demeanor, coach & size. He is a rhythm passer w/ mobility who's weakness is the long ball. Eli has never been able to throw a swing pass; his best attribute historically has been the long ball and when he was in his prime he was good in the pocket at escaping pressure but would never be confused for being mobile. Now we see with Shurmur's offense the long ball really isn't part of the game, it is more of a rhythm passing game, and the WR corp on the roster goes to show it (none of them are deep threats, more possession slant type receivers). My biggest fear is we draft Jones who I do think fits Shurmur's ideal offense to a T, and then in two years time Shurmur ends up out as the coach and we are left with a niche QB who fit our previous coach nicely but may not fit the future of the franchise.
really wish I could embrace Shurmur as the coach. I do think my thought processes in general align with Gettleman (build the trenches, rush the QB, etc.) but I'm just not that big of a fan of Shurmur's offense. Despite the media driven BS of Jones being Eli 2.0 I don't see it at all other than in demeanor, coach & size. He is a rhythm passer w/ mobility who's weakness is the long ball. Eli has never been able to throw a swing pass; his best attribute historically has been the long ball and when he was in his prime he was good in the pocket at escaping pressure but would never be confused for being mobile. Now we see with Shurmur's offense the long ball really isn't part of the game, it is more of a rhythm passing game, and the WR corp on the roster goes to show it (none of them are deep threats, more possession slant type receivers). My biggest fear is we draft Jones who I do think fits Shurmur's ideal offense to a T, and then in two years time Shurmur ends up out as the coach and we are left with a niche QB who fit our previous coach nicely but may not fit the future of the franchise.
What sense would it make to hire a new coach that doesn't know how to be successful with the QB? I don't think it works like that.
really wish I could embrace Shurmur as the coach. I do think my thought processes in general align with Gettleman (build the trenches, rush the QB, etc.) but I'm just not that big of a fan of Shurmur's offense. Despite the media driven BS of Jones being Eli 2.0 I don't see it at all other than in demeanor, coach & size. He is a rhythm passer w/ mobility who's weakness is the long ball. Eli has never been able to throw a swing pass; his best attribute historically has been the long ball and when he was in his prime he was good in the pocket at escaping pressure but would never be confused for being mobile. Now we see with Shurmur's offense the long ball really isn't part of the game, it is more of a rhythm passing game, and the WR corp on the roster goes to show it (none of them are deep threats, more possession slant type receivers). My biggest fear is we draft Jones who I do think fits Shurmur's ideal offense to a T, and then in two years time Shurmur ends up out as the coach and we are left with a niche QB who fit our previous coach nicely but may not fit the future of the franchise.
Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
IMO, Lock reminds me of Cutler and that worries me
1. QB coach/evaluator - I buy his ability here. He did a good job calling plays last year, he got a good year out of Eli past his prime, and the offense scored more points than it has in some time under him. What he did with Keenum is what you need from a coach these days. The year before that he got a good year out of Bradford - who is obviously limited. He was the OC in Philly with Foles the first time. And won 10 games the year they had to play Sanchez due to Foles' injury. Solid track record and encouraging performance year 1 with playcalling.
2. Gameday/Head Coach - jury is still out. Year 1 brought mixed results.
But fortunately #1 is what matters most right now for the draft.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I haven't Haskins name Â
Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
IMO, Lock reminds me of Cutler and that worries me
I don't see that at all. Doesn't have Cutler's arm strength (few do), is bigger, more athletic, doesn't to my knowledge have bad leadership traits.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I haven't Haskins name Â
Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
IMO, Lock reminds me of Cutler and that worries me
You do realize Cutler was who Mahomes was compared to also right? It was because of the gunslinger style of play.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I haven't Haskins name Â
Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
IMO, Lock reminds me of Cutler and that worries me
I don't see that at all. Doesn't have Cutler's arm strength (few do), is bigger, more athletic, doesn't to my knowledge have bad leadership traits.
My mistake, I misread that and thought you meant Jones not Lock.
Well said. It sounds like our info matches up. I'd find it hard to believe all of a sudden the Giants were running a game of misdirection here. Anything is possible but I'd doubt it
Giants or not he's getting picked in top 20. There's a disconnect on him. Nfl teams like him a lot more then pundits. I've stated for the Giants it's lock or jones from my understanding. That said, this board doesn't take jones seriously, nfl teams do
The vocal majority here didn’t take mayfield seriously until the browns did.
As always, great to hear tidbits. My thoughts, in case anyone isn’t skipping over my post:
1) Bringing in Haskins could be misdirection to allow someone to fall to them at 6;
2) if they are going to give up a 2 or 3 to move up to 9 for a guy like Lock, it’s silly not to just pick the guy at 6. They are better off picking the QB at 6, D at 17, and then still having the 2 and 3 rather than picking D at 6, QB at 9, and having no 2. I’m not necessarily a quantity over quality guy, but when you need as much as the Giants do, giving up a second to move up is not smart business.
3) I really do hope old dogs are learning new tricks, because the more information that leaks about who they like, the worse it is for them.
As for Jones, I find the arguments counterintuitive. Everyone suggests GMs know more than laypeople like us, but then when it is suggested that NFL people like Jones more than we do, we say they don’t know.
What bothers me most about Jones is that no one actually talks about what Jones does well. It’s all about the coaching he receives, etc. it’s not about him doing this well or him doing that. It’s that there is a Cutcliffe and Eli connection.
Well said. It sounds like our info matches up. I'd find it hard to believe all of a sudden the Giants were running a game of misdirection here. Anything is possible but I'd doubt it
Jtg good stuff. To your point their thinking right now is very much in favor of D at 6. They likely want to give Eli every opportunity to succeed and arent even going to push him out at the end of the year if they feel he is still playing well. Taking a QB at 6 maybe even 17 , the investment is high enough that it almost has to mean this would be Elis last year.
Based on what they're saying I dont know if they want to commit to that. But a 2nd round QB or later is an entirely different scenario. That guy can sit for 2 years.
DG keeps talking about value. I dont see them taking a QBguy at 6 unless they are going to commit that this is Elis last year. And then all the media circus and eye on Eli for every time he struggles even a little calling for the backup to play. I just dont see it. Truthfully in the end I think they go the route of 2nd round QB or later .
Sure they take the 'hit' from the media upfront of not picking a QB sooner but if they really believe in Eli and want to win now its probably the most prudent thing to do.
There's countless commentary from NFL people about why they like jones. I really think it's funny. Non nfl people hate jones but I'm telling you people in the league really like him. He's going top 20 for sure
#1
6th pick one out of Q Williams, Josh Allen, or Nick Bosa fall to the Giants
Giants trade up from 17 to draft Lock or Jones
#2
6th pick one out of Q Williams, Josh Allen, or Nick Bosa fall to the Giants
The Giants trade down from 17 with NE acquiring their 2020 1st, 2019 2nd (64th) and 3rd(73).
There's countless commentary from NFL people about why they like jones. I really think it's funny. Non nfl people hate jones but I'm telling you people in the league really like him. He's going top 20 for sure
just a guess, but I think the people that hate jones don't understand the talent disparity between top tier CFB teams, teams that he played being in a major conference, and what he was surrounded by at Duke. It is the difference between being the starting QB on a bad expansion team and the 2007 NE Patriots times 10. He played against teams that were almost entirely pros - and not just pros, high draft picks - with a bunch of guys who are going pro in something other than sports. And he beat some of them, including back to back bowl games for the first time in Duke history, and left college with a winning record and a solid albeit unspectacular stat sheet. Not hard to theorize what it would have looked like had he played at one of the 20-30 schools that could have surrounded him with multiple pro talents, let alone one of the true top tier schools like Georgia, Bama, Clemson, OSU, OU etc.
I thought Jones's workout was clearly better than Haskins's and Lock's, each of whom have significant mechanical issues. Whether that makes Jones worthy of a first rounder is a different matter, but this just isn't a great QB class.
I also question the logic of picking a QB while Eli is on the roster and burning a year of his rookie contract. The supposed "Kansas City model" is actually just a strategic error on behalf of Kansas City. Instead of pointing to Mahomes's 2018 as a sign of validation, I think people should be asking, "Why wasn't Mahomes the starter in 2017?" The Chiefs paid Smith $17M to be the QB in 2017 when they had a superior alternative on their bench for $3M. That Chiefs team went 10-6 and lost a home playoff game to Tennessee. What would they have done with Mahomes at QB + $14M to spend elsewhere on the roster?
until I watched several video's of his. What is evident is the lack of talent he had to work with. The amount of deep throws that were dropped was alarming. There is plenty to like with Jones and I would be happy if the Giants draft him but I prefer Lock because of his huge upside.
I agree thinking and hearts can change last minute but thats why I think 6 is almost definitely out as a QB pick but 17 has slightly more chance.
But honestly Im betting at least some at the top are hoping to go QB later to not put any undue pressure on Eli. QB position is all about confidence. An aging QB hates having a really highly touted guy under him. Wheyher BBI agrees or not, Giants want to do right by their 2 time Super Bowl winner.
Look at Garapollo lol
So unless you want to send that message to Eli this is your last year its no QB at 6 and probably not a trade up from 17 either. Too much investment with a trade up from 17.
Do any of the 'old top QB guys' have some great QB under them? Brees, Brady, Roth, Rivers?
I think its second round or later with an outside chance at 17 if one of Jones or Lock drop.
Just my best stab as I throw all the tea leaves in a super computer algorithm blender!
I agree thinking and hearts can change last minute but thats why I think 6 is almost definitely out as a QB pick but 17 has slightly more chance.
But honestly Im betting at least some at the top are hoping to go QB later to not put any undue pressure on Eli. QB position is all about confidence. An aging QB hates having a really highly touted guy under him. Wheyher BBI agrees or not, Giants want to do right by their 2 time Super Bowl winner.
Look at Garapollo lol
So unless you want to send that message to Eli this is your last year its no QB at 6 and probably not a trade up from 17 either. Too much investment with a trade up from 17.
Do any of the 'old top QB guys' have some great QB under them? Brees, Brady, Roth, Rivers?
I think its second round or later with an outside chance at 17 if one of Jones or Lock drop.
Just my best stab as I throw all the tea leaves in a super computer algorithm blender!
Ironically both the Chargers and Patriots are two teams that have shown plenty of interest in trading for Rosen. NE also used an early 2nd round pick, their top pick that year, on Garoppolo. The Steelers have used a 4th and 3rd round picks on QB's the past two years to develop behind Roethlisberger. IF the Giants feel that one of these QB's have franchise upside then they would be crazy to pass on him even if they won't play for a year or even two.
RE: The two scenarios that I would be most happy with are the following Â
The Giants trade down from 17 with NE acquiring their 2020 1st, 2019 2nd (64th) and 3rd(73).
That would be an awful trade, especially since NE's as close to a lock to pick 25+ in 2020 as you'll get. So discounting that pick a year and looking at the trade value chart (not perfect, but close) you'd be trading 950 pts for ~800 pts (~300 pts + 270 pts + 225 pts).
If they're dealing #17 to NE, get #32, #64 (or #73) and their 2020 1st. That's ~1160 pts (590 + ~300 + 270) coming back. I'd even take their next lower pick instead of 64/73, but #32 and their 2020 1st would be the starting point.
As always, great to hear tidbits. My thoughts, in case anyone isn’t skipping over my post:
1) Bringing in Haskins could be misdirection to allow someone to fall to them at 6;
2) if they are going to give up a 2 or 3 to move up to 9 for a guy like Lock, it’s silly not to just pick the guy at 6. They are better off picking the QB at 6, D at 17, and then still having the 2 and 3 rather than picking D at 6, QB at 9, and having no 2. I’m not necessarily a quantity over quality guy, but when you need as much as the Giants do, giving up a second to move up is not smart business.
3) I really do hope old dogs are learning new tricks, because the more information that leaks about who they like, the worse it is for them.
As for Jones, I find the arguments counterintuitive. Everyone suggests GMs know more than laypeople like us, but then when it is suggested that NFL people like Jones more than we do, we say they don’t know.
What bothers me most about Jones is that no one actually talks about what Jones does well. It’s all about the coaching he receives, etc. it’s not about him doing this well or him doing that. It’s that there is a Cutcliffe and Eli connection.
It could also be, eliminating him buy a thorough evaluation.
One would hope the priority would be to do what gives them the best Â
to the sidelines in the NFL. He floats the ball out there. Some guys have learned to make it work, but to me I don't want to invest a high pick in someone like that. I get why NFL people like him though, tough, good mechanics, Cutcliffe. I just don't see a guy that is going to be worth a second contract and I don't see the point of drafting a guy like that to waste a year of his rookie contract to have him sit.
really wish I could embrace Shurmur as the coach. I do think my thought processes in general align with Gettleman (build the trenches, rush the QB, etc.) but I'm just not that big of a fan of Shurmur's offense. Despite the media driven BS of Jones being Eli 2.0 I don't see it at all other than in demeanor, coach & size. He is a rhythm passer w/ mobility who's weakness is the long ball. Eli has never been able to throw a swing pass; his best attribute historically has been the long ball and when he was in his prime he was good in the pocket at escaping pressure but would never be confused for being mobile. Now we see with Shurmur's offense the long ball really isn't part of the game, it is more of a rhythm passing game, and the WR corp on the roster goes to show it (none of them are deep threats, more possession slant type receivers). My biggest fear is we draft Jones who I do think fits Shurmur's ideal offense to a T, and then in two years time Shurmur ends up out as the coach and we are left with a niche QB who fit our previous coach nicely but may not fit the future of the franchise.
What sense would it make to hire a new coach that doesn't know how to be successful with the QB? I don't think it works like that.
Which is why the Cardinals-Murray connection is mind-boggling... and pretty stupid.
If the Giants like Lock or Jones, and so does the rest of the league Â
as is being said, then they should take them at 6. Good chance the blue chip on D are gone by that point anyway unless someone deals up for a QB.
If they don't like Lock or Jones enough to take at 6, they should prepare to make a legitimate run at one of the QBs next year i.e. - moving '19 draft assets to '20. Dealing 37 for an extra 1 next year would be an obvious move. All this insider talk, and neither of these options seem to be on the table.
Those who can't understand why some fans are frustrated, this is why. The appearance is of a short sighted strategy out of nostalgia where the likelihood of another ring in the next 1-2 years is highly unlikely.
really wish I could embrace Shurmur as the coach. I do think my thought processes in general align with Gettleman (build the trenches, rush the QB, etc.) but I'm just not that big of a fan of Shurmur's offense. Despite the media driven BS of Jones being Eli 2.0 I don't see it at all other than in demeanor, coach & size. He is a rhythm passer w/ mobility who's weakness is the long ball. Eli has never been able to throw a swing pass; his best attribute historically has been the long ball and when he was in his prime he was good in the pocket at escaping pressure but would never be confused for being mobile. Now we see with Shurmur's offense the long ball really isn't part of the game, it is more of a rhythm passing game, and the WR corp on the roster goes to show it (none of them are deep threats, more possession slant type receivers). My biggest fear is we draft Jones who I do think fits Shurmur's ideal offense to a T, and then in two years time Shurmur ends up out as the coach and we are left with a niche QB who fit our previous coach nicely but may not fit the future of the franchise.
Great post and conclusions.
RE: If the Giants like Lock or Jones, and so does the rest of the league Â
as is being said, then they should take them at 6. Good chance the blue chip on D are gone by that point anyway unless someone deals up for a QB.
If they don't like Lock or Jones enough to take at 6, they should prepare to make a legitimate run at one of the QBs next year i.e. - moving '19 draft assets to '20. Dealing 37 for an extra 1 next year would be an obvious move. All this insider talk, and neither of these options seem to be on the table.
Those who can't understand why some fans are frustrated, this is why. The appearance is of a short sighted strategy out of nostalgia where the likelihood of another ring in the next 1-2 years is highly unlikely.
You said it right when you said "appearance". And then you ascribed your own motivation for what they do to them. I have no doubt at all that their plans and reasons for those plans are more substantive and more in line with long-term team success.
I agree thinking and hearts can change last minute but thats why I think 6 is almost definitely out as a QB pick but 17 has slightly more chance.
But honestly Im betting at least some at the top are hoping to go QB later to not put any undue pressure on Eli. QB position is all about confidence. An aging QB hates having a really highly touted guy under him. Wheyher BBI agrees or not, Giants want to do right by their 2 time Super Bowl winner.
Look at Garapollo lol
So unless you want to send that message to Eli this is your last year its no QB at 6 and probably not a trade up from 17 either. Too much investment with a trade up from 17.
Do any of the 'old top QB guys' have some great QB under them? Brees, Brady, Roth, Rivers?
I think its second round or later with an outside chance at 17 if one of Jones or Lock drop.
Just my best stab as I throw all the tea leaves in a super computer algorithm blender!
Ironically both the Chargers and Patriots are two teams that have shown plenty of interest in trading for Rosen. NE also used an early 2nd round pick, their top pick that year, on Garoppolo. The Steelers have used a 4th and 3rd round picks on QB's the past two years to develop behind Roethlisberger. IF the Giants feel that one of these QB's have franchise upside then they would be crazy to pass on him even if they won't play for a year or even two.
Jay even more interesting is that ALL those picks were outside of the 1st round .
The ones being discussed for Rosen? Outside the first round .
Are you readying JT's posts? This is not me asserting what they will do or what is motivating them. Clearly. I'm responding to what's being reported by our resident asshat.
Are you readying JT's posts? This is not me asserting what they will do or what is motivating them. Clearly. I'm responding to what's being reported by our resident asshat.
I've read them. They're going defense (as they *should*) with their first pick. They're committed to Eli this year. They may (or may not take a QB (Lock or Jones) depending on value.
But that's all consistent with rational team-building. They're not *not* taking a QB at ^ because* of nostalgia. They are going for value. Not that the nostalgia thing would be contradicted by them being interested in Lock and jones or anything anyways...
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at all, not once.
Then why take a visit and send that many people to his pro day? Don't see the logic.
The piece you're missing is he could very well not be graded high enough for #6.
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In comment 14389788 JonC said:
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He could be, but it would be a shift from past behavior.
JonC, old dogs can learn new tricks
Actions speak louder than words.
Wouldn't Their actions indicate they're interested?
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In comment 14389749 JonC said:
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at all, not once.
Then why take a visit and send that many people to his pro day? Don't see the logic.
The piece you're missing is he could very well not be graded high enough for #6.
Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
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In comment 14389793 Fast Eddie said:
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In comment 14389788 JonC said:
Quote:
He could be, but it would be a shift from past behavior.
JonC, old dogs can learn new tricks
Actions speak louder than words.
It's always darkest before the dawn.
Good job K
Could he be a fit in the moneybacker role that we wanted D Bucannon for?
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In comment 14389793 Fast Eddie said:
Quote:
In comment 14389788 JonC said:
Quote:
He could be, but it would be a shift from past behavior.
JonC, old dogs can learn new tricks
Actions speak louder than words.
Wouldn't Their actions indicate they're interested?
I'm referring to their actions to try and keep a lid on it.
This is something that a lot of people (especially the prickish "QB experts" on this site) seem to forget. If the Giants are going to draft a QB, its not going to be solely based on what the QB is now. Its going to be based on what they think the QB can become and they have a guy in Shurmur who's done a pretty good job with development. Its an aspect of the evaluation process that no one outside the organization would even have the slightest insight into.
I still say the Giants will stay at #6 and take the best defensive player, but I could see a small trade down to maybe #10.
As far as trading up from #17 to #9, I think that's extremely unlikely because of the cost compared to the talent level of Lock, Haskins, or Jones. Two of those three could also go to Denver and Cincinnati at #10 and #11. Teams may then start a bidding war to move up for the one who remains. I don't see DG being a participant. I'd rather trade #17 to NE for #32, and their second and third.
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at all, not once.
Then why take a visit and send that many people to his pro day? Don't see the logic.
Simple to scout him. The Giants took visits and personally visited Darnold, Rosen, and Allen last year. They even had dinner with Rosen. This is nothing new.
Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
What sense would it make to hire a new coach that doesn't know how to be successful with the QB? I don't think it works like that.
+1 I'm trying to buy into PS, but struggling.
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Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
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In comment 14389817 crooza172 said:
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Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
IMO, Lock reminds me of Cutler and that worries me
What sense would it make to hire a new coach that doesn't know how to be successful with the QB? I don't think it works like that.
I dont know; ask the Cardinals. They just did it.
2. Gameday/Head Coach - jury is still out. Year 1 brought mixed results.
But fortunately #1 is what matters most right now for the draft.
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In comment 14389830 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 14389817 crooza172 said:
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Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
IMO, Lock reminds me of Cutler and that worries me
I don't see that at all. Doesn't have Cutler's arm strength (few do), is bigger, more athletic, doesn't to my knowledge have bad leadership traits.
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In comment 14389830 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 14389817 crooza172 said:
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Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
IMO, Lock reminds me of Cutler and that worries me
You do realize Cutler was who Mahomes was compared to also right? It was because of the gunslinger style of play.
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In comment 14389839 crooza172 said:
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In comment 14389830 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 14389817 crooza172 said:
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Not missing that point since it seems every QB, according to sources here, are not graded high enough for 6....which I disagree with I might add. Lock is my guy at 6.
I want Lock also at 6 but the Giants obviously have players rated higher than him. Before you criticize them for not taking Lock at 6 let's wait to see what happens on draft day. From what it sounds you might get your wish but not at 6.
I'm not criticizing anyone. I just stated my personal opinion on the matter. Lock, more than any other prospect, reminds me of Mahomes. I'd take that chance all day.
IMO, Lock reminds me of Cutler and that worries me
I don't see that at all. Doesn't have Cutler's arm strength (few do), is bigger, more athletic, doesn't to my knowledge have bad leadership traits.
My mistake, I misread that and thought you meant Jones not Lock.
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What sense would it make to hire a new coach that doesn't know how to be successful with the QB? I don't think it works like that.
I dont know; ask the Cardinals. They just did it.
Well firstly, they haven't done anything yet. Until they announce they've drafted Murray, Rosen is still the QB.
Secondly, whens the last time the Cardinals did anything right? They're the exception...not the rule.
He does?
I question that.
The vocal majority here didn’t take mayfield seriously until the browns did.
Wake up people.
1) Bringing in Haskins could be misdirection to allow someone to fall to them at 6;
2) if they are going to give up a 2 or 3 to move up to 9 for a guy like Lock, it’s silly not to just pick the guy at 6. They are better off picking the QB at 6, D at 17, and then still having the 2 and 3 rather than picking D at 6, QB at 9, and having no 2. I’m not necessarily a quantity over quality guy, but when you need as much as the Giants do, giving up a second to move up is not smart business.
3) I really do hope old dogs are learning new tricks, because the more information that leaks about who they like, the worse it is for them.
As for Jones, I find the arguments counterintuitive. Everyone suggests GMs know more than laypeople like us, but then when it is suggested that NFL people like Jones more than we do, we say they don’t know.
What bothers me most about Jones is that no one actually talks about what Jones does well. It’s all about the coaching he receives, etc. it’s not about him doing this well or him doing that. It’s that there is a Cutcliffe and Eli connection.
Care to elaborate on this? Laughing at a poster or info being posted? Thanks!
But the guy on the 5 minute youtube video says Haskins is really, really good
Jtg good stuff. To your point their thinking right now is very much in favor of D at 6. They likely want to give Eli every opportunity to succeed and arent even going to push him out at the end of the year if they feel he is still playing well. Taking a QB at 6 maybe even 17 , the investment is high enough that it almost has to mean this would be Elis last year.
Based on what they're saying I dont know if they want to commit to that. But a 2nd round QB or later is an entirely different scenario. That guy can sit for 2 years.
DG keeps talking about value. I dont see them taking a QBguy at 6 unless they are going to commit that this is Elis last year. And then all the media circus and eye on Eli for every time he struggles even a little calling for the backup to play. I just dont see it. Truthfully in the end I think they go the route of 2nd round QB or later .
Sure they take the 'hit' from the media upfront of not picking a QB sooner but if they really believe in Eli and want to win now its probably the most prudent thing to do.
6th pick one out of Q Williams, Josh Allen, or Nick Bosa fall to the Giants
Giants trade up from 17 to draft Lock or Jones
#2
6th pick one out of Q Williams, Josh Allen, or Nick Bosa fall to the Giants
The Giants trade down from 17 with NE acquiring their 2020 1st, 2019 2nd (64th) and 3rd(73).
just a guess, but I think the people that hate jones don't understand the talent disparity between top tier CFB teams, teams that he played being in a major conference, and what he was surrounded by at Duke. It is the difference between being the starting QB on a bad expansion team and the 2007 NE Patriots times 10. He played against teams that were almost entirely pros - and not just pros, high draft picks - with a bunch of guys who are going pro in something other than sports. And he beat some of them, including back to back bowl games for the first time in Duke history, and left college with a winning record and a solid albeit unspectacular stat sheet. Not hard to theorize what it would have looked like had he played at one of the 20-30 schools that could have surrounded him with multiple pro talents, let alone one of the true top tier schools like Georgia, Bama, Clemson, OSU, OU etc.
I also question the logic of picking a QB while Eli is on the roster and burning a year of his rookie contract. The supposed "Kansas City model" is actually just a strategic error on behalf of Kansas City. Instead of pointing to Mahomes's 2018 as a sign of validation, I think people should be asking, "Why wasn't Mahomes the starter in 2017?" The Chiefs paid Smith $17M to be the QB in 2017 when they had a superior alternative on their bench for $3M. That Chiefs team went 10-6 and lost a home playoff game to Tennessee. What would they have done with Mahomes at QB + $14M to spend elsewhere on the roster?
But honestly Im betting at least some at the top are hoping to go QB later to not put any undue pressure on Eli. QB position is all about confidence. An aging QB hates having a really highly touted guy under him. Wheyher BBI agrees or not, Giants want to do right by their 2 time Super Bowl winner.
Look at Garapollo lol
So unless you want to send that message to Eli this is your last year its no QB at 6 and probably not a trade up from 17 either. Too much investment with a trade up from 17.
Do any of the 'old top QB guys' have some great QB under them? Brees, Brady, Roth, Rivers?
I think its second round or later with an outside chance at 17 if one of Jones or Lock drop.
Just my best stab as I throw all the tea leaves in a super computer algorithm blender!
But honestly Im betting at least some at the top are hoping to go QB later to not put any undue pressure on Eli. QB position is all about confidence. An aging QB hates having a really highly touted guy under him. Wheyher BBI agrees or not, Giants want to do right by their 2 time Super Bowl winner.
Look at Garapollo lol
So unless you want to send that message to Eli this is your last year its no QB at 6 and probably not a trade up from 17 either. Too much investment with a trade up from 17.
Do any of the 'old top QB guys' have some great QB under them? Brees, Brady, Roth, Rivers?
I think its second round or later with an outside chance at 17 if one of Jones or Lock drop.
Just my best stab as I throw all the tea leaves in a super computer algorithm blender!
Ironically both the Chargers and Patriots are two teams that have shown plenty of interest in trading for Rosen. NE also used an early 2nd round pick, their top pick that year, on Garoppolo. The Steelers have used a 4th and 3rd round picks on QB's the past two years to develop behind Roethlisberger. IF the Giants feel that one of these QB's have franchise upside then they would be crazy to pass on him even if they won't play for a year or even two.
The Giants trade down from 17 with NE acquiring their 2020 1st, 2019 2nd (64th) and 3rd(73).
That would be an awful trade, especially since NE's as close to a lock to pick 25+ in 2020 as you'll get. So discounting that pick a year and looking at the trade value chart (not perfect, but close) you'd be trading 950 pts for ~800 pts (~300 pts + 270 pts + 225 pts).
If they're dealing #17 to NE, get #32, #64 (or #73) and their 2020 1st. That's ~1160 pts (590 + ~300 + 270) coming back. I'd even take their next lower pick instead of 64/73, but #32 and their 2020 1st would be the starting point.
You get to work in a bash against:
- Eli
- Cutcliffe
- Jints Central
- Archie
- Jones himself
It's like the Perfect Storm for trolls.
Don't forget that he's a Skins fan.
1) Bringing in Haskins could be misdirection to allow someone to fall to them at 6;
2) if they are going to give up a 2 or 3 to move up to 9 for a guy like Lock, it’s silly not to just pick the guy at 6. They are better off picking the QB at 6, D at 17, and then still having the 2 and 3 rather than picking D at 6, QB at 9, and having no 2. I’m not necessarily a quantity over quality guy, but when you need as much as the Giants do, giving up a second to move up is not smart business.
3) I really do hope old dogs are learning new tricks, because the more information that leaks about who they like, the worse it is for them.
As for Jones, I find the arguments counterintuitive. Everyone suggests GMs know more than laypeople like us, but then when it is suggested that NFL people like Jones more than we do, we say they don’t know.
What bothers me most about Jones is that no one actually talks about what Jones does well. It’s all about the coaching he receives, etc. it’s not about him doing this well or him doing that. It’s that there is a Cutcliffe and Eli connection.
It could also be, eliminating him buy a thorough evaluation.
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really wish I could embrace Shurmur as the coach. I do think my thought processes in general align with Gettleman (build the trenches, rush the QB, etc.) but I'm just not that big of a fan of Shurmur's offense. Despite the media driven BS of Jones being Eli 2.0 I don't see it at all other than in demeanor, coach & size. He is a rhythm passer w/ mobility who's weakness is the long ball. Eli has never been able to throw a swing pass; his best attribute historically has been the long ball and when he was in his prime he was good in the pocket at escaping pressure but would never be confused for being mobile. Now we see with Shurmur's offense the long ball really isn't part of the game, it is more of a rhythm passing game, and the WR corp on the roster goes to show it (none of them are deep threats, more possession slant type receivers). My biggest fear is we draft Jones who I do think fits Shurmur's ideal offense to a T, and then in two years time Shurmur ends up out as the coach and we are left with a niche QB who fit our previous coach nicely but may not fit the future of the franchise.
What sense would it make to hire a new coach that doesn't know how to be successful with the QB? I don't think it works like that.
Which is why the Cardinals-Murray connection is mind-boggling... and pretty stupid.
If they don't like Lock or Jones enough to take at 6, they should prepare to make a legitimate run at one of the QBs next year i.e. - moving '19 draft assets to '20. Dealing 37 for an extra 1 next year would be an obvious move. All this insider talk, and neither of these options seem to be on the table.
Those who can't understand why some fans are frustrated, this is why. The appearance is of a short sighted strategy out of nostalgia where the likelihood of another ring in the next 1-2 years is highly unlikely.
If they don't like Lock or Jones enough to take at 6, they should prepare to make a legitimate run at one of the QBs next year i.e. - moving '19 draft assets to '20. Dealing 37 for an extra 1 next year would be an obvious move. All this insider talk, and neither of these options seem to be on the table.
Those who can't understand why some fans are frustrated, this is why. The appearance is of a short sighted strategy out of nostalgia where the likelihood of another ring in the next 1-2 years is highly unlikely.
You said it right when you said "appearance". And then you ascribed your own motivation for what they do to them. I have no doubt at all that their plans and reasons for those plans are more substantive and more in line with long-term team success.
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I agree thinking and hearts can change last minute but thats why I think 6 is almost definitely out as a QB pick but 17 has slightly more chance.
But honestly Im betting at least some at the top are hoping to go QB later to not put any undue pressure on Eli. QB position is all about confidence. An aging QB hates having a really highly touted guy under him. Wheyher BBI agrees or not, Giants want to do right by their 2 time Super Bowl winner.
Look at Garapollo lol
So unless you want to send that message to Eli this is your last year its no QB at 6 and probably not a trade up from 17 either. Too much investment with a trade up from 17.
Do any of the 'old top QB guys' have some great QB under them? Brees, Brady, Roth, Rivers?
I think its second round or later with an outside chance at 17 if one of Jones or Lock drop.
Just my best stab as I throw all the tea leaves in a super computer algorithm blender!
Ironically both the Chargers and Patriots are two teams that have shown plenty of interest in trading for Rosen. NE also used an early 2nd round pick, their top pick that year, on Garoppolo. The Steelers have used a 4th and 3rd round picks on QB's the past two years to develop behind Roethlisberger. IF the Giants feel that one of these QB's have franchise upside then they would be crazy to pass on him even if they won't play for a year or even two.
Jay even more interesting is that ALL those picks were outside of the 1st round .
The ones being discussed for Rosen? Outside the first round .
I've read them. They're going defense (as they *should*) with their first pick. They're committed to Eli this year. They may (or may not take a QB (Lock or Jones) depending on value.
But that's all consistent with rational team-building. They're not *not* taking a QB at ^ because* of nostalgia. They are going for value. Not that the nostalgia thing would be contradicted by them being interested in Lock and jones or anything anyways...