They've done all of the homework on him, spent a ton of time with him throughout the draft process. Had him in the building for a visit on the first day of OTA's. Photos just came out of him training in Giants gear (I know its not a big deal but remember the Saquon Giants hoodie last year).
It seems like there has been a ton of smoke around the Giants and "defensive players" and Lock/Jones. Meanwhile, Haskins is "slipping". Starting to feel like this is more smoke than anything.
Only way it's not Haskins is if Allen/Bosa/Q. Williams fall or Cincy/Wash trade up (doubt this)
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In comment 14391348 jtgiants said:
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Nothing specific on wr. However I suspect it's certainly in play for sure
Thank you, I feel like WR value could be there at 37 ... I believe Eli can still get it done, hopefully a big body WR added
I'm a known non-believer in Eli, so I'll continue to get tarred and feathered for this, but when exactly will people stop believing in Eli? When is enough, enough? I'm just wondering.
In comment 14391354 Giants38 said:
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In comment 14391348 jtgiants said:
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Nothing specific on wr. However I suspect it's certainly in play for sure
Thank you, I feel like WR value could be there at 37 ... I believe Eli can still get it done, hopefully a big body WR added
I'm a known non-believer in Eli, so I'll continue to get tarred and feathered for this, but when exactly will people stop believing in Eli? When is enough, enough? I'm just wondering.
Put me in the camp that wants a new “franchise QB”, but also doesn’t want the Giants to reach on mediocre prospects and bypass elite talent
elsewhere just for the sake of taking a QB. If the 2020 class was available this year, you’d hear me banging the QB drum.
Unfortunately, this QB class is lacking while the elite talent resides mostly on defense. So, what a smart team does is continue to stockpile elite talent where it is available to them and then adjust accordingly.
We all want a young gun to root for. Some want them to take a QB just to do so while blaming Eli for all of our problems. Others acknowledge you have to take what the draft class gives you, and the 2019 draft can
(and should) go towards building the defense up.
Build the OL, develop a dominant run game and effective play action pass game, and stockpile young elite talent on defense - lets get back to “Giants football”, no more of this “b-ball on grass” “the game has changed” BS.
Games are still won and lost in the trenches, no matter how much the game has changed it’s still football. Run the ball, stuff the run, hit the other teams QB.
Short version: Yes the Giants need a young new shiny “franchise QB” ... They can also still be competitive with Eli as long as he has a functional OL and a defense that actually makes a stop from time to time.
Eli has lost a little bit, but he is not the problem weighing down this franchise like so many people want to claim. He can still play, he just needs help. Reese wasted his prime by building this offense like it was a fantasy football draft and forcing Eli to play behind pathetic OLs. Eli, and this offense, looked much better in the 2nd half of last year once the OL played better.
Shorter version: Put me in the camp that wants a new QB, but only when the prospects available dictate they are worthy of a top pick. This class is not that, so draft accordingly and start stockpiling young studs on the defense.
With the softer schedule, improved OL (Zietler was a huge acquisition), this team can complete for a wildcard spot if they address defense early and often. Draft best player available, make life easier for Eli AND the young guy eventually replacing him.
/novel
No fucking way.
You either take the QB at 6 or you dont like one enough.
The same is true of “unless Bosa, QW or Allen slip”. If you think 1 of the guys is your next franchise QB why would a defensive player matter?
It’ll be a QB at 6 (or higher) if they like any of them.
If Williams or Allen falls to 6, we should all be jumping for joy while the Giants immediately submit the selection (Williams would be a dream).
Lock is the only QB at 6 I can get behind, as he has the size and physical ability (arm talent, athleticism) every team would want in a QB. He’s a perfect candidate to sit behind Eli, learn from the vet, while getting
work with Shurmur to develop.
(I wouldn’t take a QB at 6, but Lock I can understand the temptation. He makes a lot of “wow” throws and can move. Upside is tremendous.)
Lock and Jones are more more mobile than Haskins. Shurmur seems to want a mobile QB. I don't like Lock or Jones enough to trade up from #17 for either, but the Giants might.
Thank you, I’ve been trying to watch game clips to get excited by Haskins and I just don’t get it at all. Glad the giants seem to agree.
I did notice Paris Campbell a lot in his highlights. I’d love that wr at 37
This x 1000. You can want a new QB and still acknowledge this class isn’t worth the investment - especially with so much D talent available
Eli has lost a little bit, but he is not the problem weighing down this franchise like so many people want to claim.
But what if he is? Or are there going to be excuses if after the oline additions the past couple of years and potential two first rounders added on defense if the team once again is in the top 5 next year?
He’s more done than you think.
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Eli has lost a little bit, but he is not the problem weighing down this franchise like so many people want to claim.
But what if he is? Or are there going to be excuses if after the oline additions the past couple of years and potential two first rounders added on defense if the team once again is in the top 5 next year?
He’s more done than you think.
Then we have a complete team minus the QB and, if your position is correct, will not be successful this year and therefore be perfectly positioned to take an elite QB next year rather than settle this year.
Sure.
But the evidence the past three seasons points to that he doesn’t play well consistently enough to be a starter in the NFL. People want to believe he’s not done, but odds are he he is than has enough left in the tank to make a playoff run.
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...a team shouldn’t use its top pick on the best available bad QB. It’s that simple.
This x 1000. You can want a new QB and still acknowledge this class isn’t worth the investment - especially with so much D talent available
+2.
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It will be interesting if Manning plays well to see what the "excuses" are for him playing well.
Sure.
But the evidence the past three seasons points to that he doesn’t play well consistently enough to be a starter in the NFL. People want to believe he’s not done, but odds are he he is than has enough left in the tank to make a playoff run.
Not sure how you can evaluate him well enough to say that based on how bad the OL has been over the last several years. Factor in two different offensive schemes and coaching staffs and I just can't understand how you can form such an unmovable position on where he truly stands right now.
If he lasts till #17, you consider it, but certainly no need to run to the podium even then.
As it should be.
It’s over for Eli. I love the guy but he is not the answer.
The only offensive guy who might give the Giants pause is if by some miracle Murray fell to #6. If that happened, I'd be very curious to see what they do. But if Murray ever got to #3, someone would trade with the Jets to get him, so it's moot.
The Giants defense was terrible. You can't win without a pass rush. They need to get an impact defender who will start on the first day of training camp.
Seems highly unlikely.
Haskins at 6, given the D prospects available, is a nightmare
Welcome back, SaqBar.
But part of what's going on with the Giants is they HAVE TO get studs at the top of the draft and take advantage of sucking so bad. Part of the reason they're in this mess is getting zero return on 2 top 10 picks Flowers & Apple. Killer to miss that high.
Last year - staring at Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Jackson Gettleman goes "sure thing" Barkley, and would've taken Chubb if not. This year sounds like the same - he'll be staring at 3-4 franchise QBs and will take a guaranteed stud to improve the team.
Can't say I'm against it - but this is a very unique situation where we aren't heavily prioritizing QB over all other positions. It's debatable, to be sure.
Granted, you have ears where most of us don't, but I'd hardly consider it misdirection if they draft Haskins, not with the contingent of coaches, scouts, execs that they sent to the OSU pro day.
If anything, it would mean that maybe some of the inside sources that you guys have might not have all the access to DG's thinking (just saying maybe), but I can't see how drafting the guy who had by far the largest NYG representation at his pro day could in any way be considered misdirection.
It’s over for Eli. I love the guy but he is not the answer.
Agreed. But it’s starting to become clear at this point that it will not be a QB at 6. Even I have to concede that. But as I have said before, if you don’t value a QB enough to take him at 6, it’s not worth taking the guy at 17, either. I don’t see any can’t miss guys waiting for the Giants at 6, so the rationale for doing so and hoping “their guy” falls to them at 17 is suspect. And if they think they can compete next year, it’s hard to see how they plan on getting a QB next year, either. But maybe that’s just it, they want to ride Eli in 2020, too. John Mara said it at the owners’ meetings, so I guess you can’t ignore it.
I was hoping it was a smokescreen, but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade, I suppose.
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defense at #6.
The only offensive guy who might give the Giants pause is if by some miracle Murray fell to #6. If that happened, I'd be very curious to see what they do. But if Murray ever got to #3, someone would trade with the Jets to get him, so it's moot.
The Giants defense was terrible. You can't win without a pass rush. They need to get an impact defender who will start on the first day of training camp.
In my estimation, they are more than an impact defender away from winning. JT and many others disagree. We’re about to find out.
When the dust settles, there are many years that a starting QB you can build around does not come out of college.
When the dust settles, there are many years that a starting QB you can build around does not come out of college.
Not in the last five years. College/HS are producing guys that can play. It isn't the scarcity that it once was.
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In comment 14391736 Eric from BBI said:
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defense at #6.
The only offensive guy who might give the Giants pause is if by some miracle Murray fell to #6. If that happened, I'd be very curious to see what they do. But if Murray ever got to #3, someone would trade with the Jets to get him, so it's moot.
The Giants defense was terrible. You can't win without a pass rush. They need to get an impact defender who will start on the first day of training camp.
In my estimation, they are more than an impact defender away from winning. JT and many others disagree. We’re about to find out.
I agree. If I had my way, I'd use #6, #17, and #37 on defense. I'd load up like the Giants did in 1986. But honestly, I'd be happy to see them go with 2 defensive players and 1 OL with those picks.
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I don’t know what some of you have been watching the last few years, I certainly don’t know why you think it will get better now that he’s even older. If you don’t like Haskins that’s one thing. Retooling around Eli is not the answer though. He is a bottom of the barrel quarterback, I don’t know what number you put on it but it’s low. He’s definitely in the bottom third, probably bottom five and you will find many people who know what they are talking about who think Eli is the worst or second worst starter in the league.
It’s over for Eli. I love the guy but he is not the answer.
Agreed. But it’s starting to become clear at this point that it will not be a QB at 6. Even I have to concede that. But as I have said before, if you don’t value a QB enough to take him at 6, it’s not worth taking the guy at 17, either. I don’t see any can’t miss guys waiting for the Giants at 6, so the rationale for doing so and hoping “their guy” falls to them at 17 is suspect. And if they think they can compete next year, it’s hard to see how they plan on getting a QB next year, either. But maybe that’s just it, they want to ride Eli in 2020, too. John Mara said it at the owners’ meetings, so I guess you can’t ignore it.
I was hoping it was a smokescreen, but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade, I suppose.
I couldn’t agree more. I have been screaming this exact thing since the season ended. Those here that still think we can win with Eli have not been watching the last five years or are just in straight denial.
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
That is all true. But Giants’ fans share your opinion. Non-Giants’ fans share mine. People here are letting feelings towards Eli get in the way. I truly believe that. Whatever the case, if the insiders are right, the Eli apologists are going to get their way - again - and we’ll go from there. My concern is that more excuses will be made, maybe an easier schedule Nets us 6 or 7 wins, and we run this thing back again.
At this point, I am losing faith that this regime has any intention of putting a real succession plan for Eli in place.
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
Honestly I'm not as arrogant as most of the people convinced and claiming he is a bottom 3rd QB in the league. I give my opinion that he is not anymore washed up than his contemporaries, rather based on clear facts that our OL has sucked since 2011 (and not just in pass blocking, not sure how anyone can deny the run clocking horridness), and he is in 2 new schemes in the last 3 years. There are plenty of examples of good long throws from last season.
Honestly he may or may not be done. It is what it is. But this kind of BS spouted over and over just really makes me want to see an actual mediocre+ OL with him completely kicking ass this season.... just to shut everyone the hell up about his "bottom 3rdness" It's just so old and tired at this point. I really hope he kills it for that reason.
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In comment 14391750 Oscar said:
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I don’t know what some of you have been watching the last few years, I certainly don’t know why you think it will get better now that he’s even older. If you don’t like Haskins that’s one thing. Retooling around Eli is not the answer though. He is a bottom of the barrel quarterback, I don’t know what number you put on it but it’s low. He’s definitely in the bottom third, probably bottom five and you will find many people who know what they are talking about who think Eli is the worst or second worst starter in the league.
It’s over for Eli. I love the guy but he is not the answer.
Agreed. But it’s starting to become clear at this point that it will not be a QB at 6. Even I have to concede that. But as I have said before, if you don’t value a QB enough to take him at 6, it’s not worth taking the guy at 17, either. I don’t see any can’t miss guys waiting for the Giants at 6, so the rationale for doing so and hoping “their guy” falls to them at 17 is suspect. And if they think they can compete next year, it’s hard to see how they plan on getting a QB next year, either. But maybe that’s just it, they want to ride Eli in 2020, too. John Mara said it at the owners’ meetings, so I guess you can’t ignore it.
I was hoping it was a smokescreen, but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade, I suppose.
I couldn’t agree more. I have been screaming this exact thing since the season ended. Those here that still think we can win with Eli have not been watching the last five years or are just in straight denial.
Pretty sure Eli went in to Lambeau in the playoffs (2 years ago!) and played lights out while certain individuals played horribly and dropped what should’ve been TDs and 3rd down conversions ... but yes this is all Eli’s fault
(I want a new QB too, I’m just not going to be an irrational human and take a QB just to take 1.)
This team could’ve contended for a playoff spot last year, with Eli, if the defense wasn’t such a disgrace. That’s all Eli’s fault too.
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In comment 14391357 jtgiants said:
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
Honestly I'm not as arrogant as most of the people convinced and claiming he is a bottom 3rd QB in the league. I give my opinion that he is not anymore washed up than his contemporaries, rather based on clear facts that our OL has sucked since 2011 (and not just in pass blocking, not sure how anyone can deny the run clocking horridness), and he is in 2 new schemes in the last 3 years. There are plenty of examples of good long throws from last season.
Honestly he may or may not be done. It is what it is. But this kind of BS spouted over and over just really makes me want to see an actual mediocre+ OL with him completely kicking ass this season.... just to shut everyone the hell up about his "bottom 3rdness" It's just so old and tired at this point. I really hope he kills it for that reason.
He didn’t “kill it” when he had one of the best lines in football that helped carry us to a Super Bowl. We were still the sixth seed and had a magical run. Eli has never “killed it”. Look at his annual stats.
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In comment 14391808 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14391357 jtgiants said:
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
Honestly I'm not as arrogant as most of the people convinced and claiming he is a bottom 3rd QB in the league. I give my opinion that he is not anymore washed up than his contemporaries, rather based on clear facts that our OL has sucked since 2011 (and not just in pass blocking, not sure how anyone can deny the run clocking horridness), and he is in 2 new schemes in the last 3 years. There are plenty of examples of good long throws from last season.
Honestly he may or may not be done. It is what it is. But this kind of BS spouted over and over just really makes me want to see an actual mediocre+ OL with him completely kicking ass this season.... just to shut everyone the hell up about his "bottom 3rdness" It's just so old and tired at this point. I really hope he kills it for that reason.
He didn’t “kill it” when he had one of the best lines in football that helped carry us to a Super Bowl. We were still the sixth seed and had a magical run. Eli has never “killed it”. Look at his annual stats.
So he needs a good supporting cast to win SBs? You mean like literally every other QB?
Pretty clear you’re just anti-Eli in general, so feel free to stop commenting.
It’s a shame those boat party boyz forgot how to catch the ball, maybe Eli would’ve taken us on another magical playoff run - he certainly wasn’t the issue that day.
I could cite his all-time stats and HOF case, but then you’ll say some BS about it being a “passing league” and his stats are now somewhat inflated so we’ll just end it here. Eli sucks and is the reason for everything negative associated with the Giants now and forever. Feel better?
He didn’t “kill it” when he had one of the best lines in football that helped carry us to a Super Bowl. We were still the sixth seed and had a magical run. Eli has never “killed it”. Look at his annual stats.
Ah. Agenda exposed. I rest my case.
I do not want them to reach
If it is Haskins then so be it.
I do not think that Haskins is the 6th best player in the draft.
There are red flags that I can't ignore;
The QB is the leader of the team. He leads by example.
I do not know how Haskins could come to the combine out of shape.This is the most important interview of his life. He should have been in the best shape of his life.
Haskins is not a great athlete. His 5:04 40 is much worse than I had expected. He did not do the other tests so I am left wondering about his innate skills.
Haskins has a very good and accurate arm but it is not elite. The velocity on his throws is 52 MPH which is not very impressive. His lack of arm strength shows in long throws. Haskins puts a lot of air on his deep throws. That works in college but does not work in the NFL.
When Haskins is under duress in the pocket, there are times when he slides nicely to avoid pressure. But then there are other times when he loses his composure and makes bad decisions. This can be seen in his lack of efficiency in the red zone. OSU was one of the worst teams in red zone efficiency.
DG keeps talking about value when it comes to the draft. Why? Because value is determined by how much you are willing to pay for something.
What are the drivers for a QBs value to this franchise?
Eli to them right now (whether BBI agrees or not) has more value than any young QB in this draft.
So with that said, they will look to 'protect' the current investment at QB moreso than a future one.
QB at 6 because of the level of investment means this is Elis last year. Also means media pressure/circus probably every time there is a hint of struggle THIS year.
Trade up from 17 likely means close to that as well.
With the 17th pick (without trade up) its still a high pick but it isn't your top pick at 6 and could potentially be argued either way. If Lock and Jones gone by 17 then this becomes moot anyways. If they are there....
Truthfully I see second round or later or trade back into first. That affords 1-2 years of sitting behind Eli (because if he does great this year they may very likely extend him another).
That is why I keep thinking Grier ends up being the ideal target. A guy with enough polish while not being more 'obscure' target like a 4th round Lauletta.
In other words, a pretty good QB prospect but not such a highly touted guy that will require such a high investment and therefore force their hand to move quicker on Eli than they'd want to.
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In comment 14391357 jtgiants said:
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
Honestly I'm not as arrogant as most of the people convinced and claiming he is a bottom 3rd QB in the league. I give my opinion that he is not anymore washed up than his contemporaries, rather based on clear facts that our OL has sucked since 2011 (and not just in pass blocking, not sure how anyone can deny the run clocking horridness), and he is in 2 new schemes in the last 3 years. There are plenty of examples of good long throws from last season.
Honestly he may or may not be done. It is what it is. But this kind of BS spouted over and over just really makes me want to see an actual mediocre+ OL with him completely kicking ass this season.... just to shut everyone the hell up about his "bottom 3rdness" It's just so old and tired at this point. I really hope he kills it for that reason.
Nothing about my post said he's bottom third. I'm just responding to the seeming certainty in JT's posts. I think we can all agree that Eli has been dealt a shit hand by the front office and his productivity has no doubt been impacted by having a garbage OL in front of him and - until last year - a revolving door of journeyman RBs providing no support in the run game.
That said, he's still 38 years old and there are some indications that Eli is in decline in addition to the other factors that have hampered his play over the past few years. It's not unreasonable to think that Eli might be very close to the end of his productive days even if the other elements of the offense are significantly improved. My point is simply that we'll find out how much of it is on the OL (and other parts of the offense, including changing the scheme twice) and how much of it is on Eli himself.
For anyone to speak in absolutes about Eli's current and near future ability - and that can be negative or positive - is foolish, no matter how well connected they are. It's foolish for DG himself to speak in absolutes, but at least he's the GM. For anyone else, telling people "your [sic] wrong" and "[t]here's not a throw he can't make" is silly. No one can possibly know that right now. There's too much potential evidence to the contrary. And for anyone declaring that Eli is unequivocally done, that's just as silly - we can see that Eli played better later in the season.
Like I've said a few times, it's an unanswered question. It's not a force-fed media narrative. It's not an agenda. It's not a fact either way. It's a question. And we're all going to get more insight into the answer this season.
But there's no easy way out.
He also said the QB position is “thick” (deep) and that they will stay true to their board and not reach or treat the position any differently than other positions (not reaching on a QB just to take 1). He also mentioned Lauletta as well (“Don’t forget about Kyle”)
[insert clever Haskins/“thick” jokes here]
Sounds a whole lot more to me as if D is a lock at 6 andthey truly think Eli still has it, and won’t reach just to take 1.