They've done all of the homework on him, spent a ton of time with him throughout the draft process. Had him in the building for a visit on the first day of OTA's. Photos just came out of him training in Giants gear (I know its not a big deal but remember the Saquon Giants hoodie last year).
It seems like there has been a ton of smoke around the Giants and "defensive players" and Lock/Jones. Meanwhile, Haskins is "slipping". Starting to feel like this is more smoke than anything.
Only way it's not Haskins is if Allen/Bosa/Q. Williams fall or Cincy/Wash trade up (doubt this)
Doubt he falls past 13.
It’s not “smoke”, it’s logic.
I just remember how the Giants sent everyone to watch Eli's Pro Day. And Shurmur and Abrams were awfully chummy with him there.
Seems like other QB's have moved ahead of him, but I like the guy. Seems like the kind of guy who would own a locker room.
I just remember how the Giants sent everyone to watch Eli's Pro Day. And Shurmur and Abrams were awfully chummy with him there.
Seems like other QB's have moved ahead of him, but I like the guy. Seems like the kind of guy who would own a locker room.
I don't quite remember his track record, but the other day Peppers said a lot of people in the building really like Haskins.
I just remember how the Giants sent everyone to watch Eli's Pro Day. And Shurmur and Abrams were awfully chummy with him there.
Seems like other QB's have moved ahead of him, but I like the guy. Seems like the kind of guy who would own a locker room.
It's lying season, teams leaking all kind of misinformation to the media.
I just remember how the Giants sent everyone to watch Eli's Pro Day. And Shurmur and Abrams were awfully chummy with him there.
Seems like other QB's have moved ahead of him, but I like the guy. Seems like the kind of guy who would own a locker room.
A couple days ago you said your gut was telling you Haskins. I guess that is not the case anymore. Don't you think it's possible - though the team has been terrible at this in the past - that the team is playing coy with this.
By the way, surprised I did not see this posted anywhere, but Haskins posted a picture on his Instagram account with him working out in a Giants' hoodie. Isn't that what Saquon did last year as well?
People have to start understanding this. You don't pass up a QB at 6 and hope he falls to 17. If you're doing that, you don't like the guy enough to draft him anywhere. Plain and simple, you only draft a QB you think is going to be your franchise QB. If you evaluate him as such, you pick him at 6 and don't risk losing him because someone picks him before 17 (or you are unable to trade up to get him before that spot).
Haskins at 6, given the D prospects available, is a nightmare
I’m guessing we go D at 6 and 17, then OL at 37.
But take a dive when 1st & only read wasnt open, lost many games.
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But if he's still available at #17, then quite possibly yes. The problem is that he may not be mobile enough for Shurmur.
People have to start understanding this. You don't pass up a QB at 6 and hope he falls to 17. If you're doing that, you don't like the guy enough to draft him anywhere. Plain and simple, you only draft a QB you think is going to be your franchise QB. If you evaluate him as such, you pick him at 6 and don't risk losing him because someone picks him before 17 (or you are unable to trade up to get him before that spot).
Your argument is that the Giants should not take any QB at #17 that they passed on at #6. For this draft class of QBs I agree, but that doesn't mean that they won't.
My view remains unchanged, which is that I don't want any QB this year, except Rosen for #37.
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In comment 14391154 AcidTest said:
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But if he's still available at #17, then quite possibly yes. The problem is that he may not be mobile enough for Shurmur.
People have to start understanding this. You don't pass up a QB at 6 and hope he falls to 17. If you're doing that, you don't like the guy enough to draft him anywhere. Plain and simple, you only draft a QB you think is going to be your franchise QB. If you evaluate him as such, you pick him at 6 and don't risk losing him because someone picks him before 17 (or you are unable to trade up to get him before that spot).
Your argument is that the Giants should not take any QB at #17 that they passed on at #6. For this draft class of QBs I agree, but that doesn't mean that they won't.
My view remains unchanged, which is that I don't want any QB this year, except Rosen for #37.
If the Giants are hoping for the QB they "love" to fall to them at 17 - or banking on a trade up to get the guy from that point - they are run by idiots. That is certainly a possibility.
I'm sure I'm repeating myself, but if you love a QB, you don't say, let me grab Gary (for example) at 6, and hopefully the QB I love will be there at 17. If your thought process is you don't care if you lose the QB, then you don't think he's a franchise QB, and you don't bother wasting a pick on the guy at all. (If you love the guy, you don't play around; you just grab him.)
This “franchise QB” obsession is why you see Bortles go before Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald in a draft. Gotta have that “franchise QB”, that “future face of the franchise”, and all the other BS cliches you hear on draft day.
Build the team and draft to the strength of the class available to you? This draft is loaded, and that talent lies along the defense, OL, TE, WR prospects.
Do the Giants need a young QB? Absolutely.
Should the Giants pass over elite talent elsewhere just to take 1? Absolutely not.
* Not saying QB isn’t important, am saying it’s stupid to bypass superior talent elsewhere just to fill that QB position. If Fromm was available in this draft, you’d hear me pounding the table for a trade up to acquire him. There is no QB worth the pick at 6 - none. Least of all Haskins.
Flip a coin if he and Oliver are both on the board at 6. And for the thousandth time actions speak louder than words. The Giants are definitely highly interested in Haskins.
There is a chance he wasn't a one year flash. That his ceiling is unlimited
There is a chance he wasn't a one year flash. That his ceiling is unlimited
It’s easy to look accurate when you have all day to make your reads and throw to several NFL caliber WRs
What about him gives a top grade? Serious question ... I’ve dug into Murray, Lock, Jones enough to justify a 1st rounder - I just don’t see it, especially at 6, with Haskins
(I want no QB at 6, FYI)
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nice long ball. Has enough wiggle in the pocket so to never be confused with a statue. Is a bit of a beef cake so I worry about his body as he ages. No Jared Lorenzens please. He's my pick as our first pick
There is a chance he wasn't a one year flash. That his ceiling is unlimited
It’s easy to look accurate when you have all day to make your reads and throw to several NFL caliber WRs
Is it easy? There have been many QB prospects with very good teams. Now go look at the Power 5 QBs who have had equal or more success then Haskins. I'll give you a hint. It's a very small list.
This “franchise QB” obsession is why you see Bortles go before Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald in a draft. Gotta have that “franchise QB”, that “future face of the franchise”, and all the other BS cliches you hear on draft day.
Build the team and draft to the strength of the class available to you? This draft is loaded, and that talent lies along the defense, OL, TE, WR prospects.
Do the Giants need a young QB? Absolutely.
Should the Giants pass over elite talent elsewhere just to take 1? Absolutely not.
* Not saying QB isn’t important, am saying it’s stupid to bypass superior talent elsewhere just to fill that QB position. If Fromm was available in this draft, you’d hear me pounding the table for a trade up to acquire him. There is no QB worth the pick at 6 - none. Least of all Haskins.
Shh don't say this too loudly. Some folks will accuse you of saying something along the lines of QBs don't matter. Your disclaimer doesn't matter. :)
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nice long ball. Has enough wiggle in the pocket so to never be confused with a statue. Is a bit of a beef cake so I worry about his body as he ages. No Jared Lorenzens please. He's my pick as our first pick
There is a chance he wasn't a one year flash. That his ceiling is unlimited
It’s easy to look accurate when you have all day to make your reads and throw to several NFL caliber WRs
From 2000 to 2018 there's only been 1 QB whose thrown for 4800+ yards with a completion percentage over 69%. That's happened to throw for 50+ TDs and under 10 INTs. That was Dwayne Haskins. So let's not try to make it out that the things he did were easy or because of his supporting cast. There are plenty of stacked college football teams with great OLs and good skill position players. Yet in the last 18 years none have done what Haskins did.
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nice long ball. Has enough wiggle in the pocket so to never be confused with a statue. Is a bit of a beef cake so I worry about his body as he ages. No Jared Lorenzens please. He's my pick as our first pick
There is a chance he wasn't a one year flash. That his ceiling is unlimited
It’s easy to look accurate when you have all day to make your reads and throw to several NFL caliber WRs
Actually, most of the tape shows that he's getting the ball out on time.
There's no need for "all day."
Pros:
Quick and technically sound release
Sees the whole field and is quick through his reads
Very intelligent young man
High character young man
70% completion percentage(very high even for a top college program)
50:8 TD/INT ratio is impressive
4800+ yards passing
10.3 average yards per attempt is elite
Cons:
Not a great athlete but has good height/size(slow combine 40)
Appeared to labor at his Pro Day though he threw well
14 starts
Overall a talented, productive and intriguing skillset
(As of now Lock is “my guy”, Love his skillset and potential after a year behind Eli)
Haskins at 6, given the D prospects available, is a nightmare
You mean JT Barrett, who made his receivers look really bad, as opposed to Haskins who made them look great.
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Ohio State could’ve started a jugs machine at QB and it would’ve put up impressive stats too.
Haskins at 6, given the D prospects available, is a nightmare
You mean JT Barrett, who made his receivers look really bad, as opposed to Haskins who made them look great.
Just watched the Michigan tape hoping to be impressed ... instead I came away feeling like I should’ve just watched a Paris Campbell highlight. I’ll keep looking, and will admit he seemed more nimble than I expected
* I love Paris Campbell
Pretty sure he left town today, wouldn’t say he’s been ruled out.
I’m just hoping this is to pressure Cincy into trading up.
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But if he's still available at #17, then quite possibly yes. The problem is that he may not be mobile enough for Shurmur.
People have to start understanding this. You don't pass up a QB at 6 and hope he falls to 17. If you're doing that, you don't like the guy enough to draft him anywhere. Plain and simple, you only draft a QB you think is going to be your franchise QB. If you evaluate him as such, you pick him at 6 and don't risk losing him because someone picks him before 17 (or you are unable to trade up to get him before that spot).
Where exactly did this mantra come from? Everyone is repeating it too. This is the thinking that Jacksonville used when they used a #3 overall on Blake Bortles.
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In comment 14391154 AcidTest said:
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But if he's still available at #17, then quite possibly yes. The problem is that he may not be mobile enough for Shurmur.
People have to start understanding this. You don't pass up a QB at 6 and hope he falls to 17. If you're doing that, you don't like the guy enough to draft him anywhere. Plain and simple, you only draft a QB you think is going to be your franchise QB. If you evaluate him as such, you pick him at 6 and don't risk losing him because someone picks him before 17 (or you are unable to trade up to get him before that spot).
Where exactly did this mantra come from? Everyone is repeating it too. This is the thinking that Jacksonville used when they used a #3 overall on Blake Bortles.
Thank you. This is the short sighted stupidity that gets Bortles taken ahead of Mack, Beckham, Donald. “Gotta have that franchise QB”
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In comment 14391154 AcidTest said:
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But if he's still available at #17, then quite possibly yes. The problem is that he may not be mobile enough for Shurmur.
People have to start understanding this. You don't pass up a QB at 6 and hope he falls to 17. If you're doing that, you don't like the guy enough to draft him anywhere. Plain and simple, you only draft a QB you think is going to be your franchise QB. If you evaluate him as such, you pick him at 6 and don't risk losing him because someone picks him before 17 (or you are unable to trade up to get him before that spot).
Where exactly did this mantra come from? Everyone is repeating it too. This is the thinking that Jacksonville used when they used a #3 overall on Blake Bortles.
It’s BBI mob speak. Something that passes for insight and becomes the unquestioned gospel truth without anyone questioning it.
The year they took Fournette and then went to the afc championship?
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Big, strong arm, pocket passer and positive "face of franchise" type guy. Yet, they seem to have ruled him out very early on. Very odd IMO. If it were another team I'd be tempted to say smokescreen but the Giants don't usually roll that way. Still part of me wonders...
Pretty sure he left town today, wouldn’t say he’s been ruled out.
I’m just hoping this is to pressure Cincy into trading up.
Of course they have met with him but pretty much everything we've heard from early on is that the Giants are not going to take him.
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lesson with Bortles and 3 years later they didn't reach for a QB. And so Patrick Mahomes is in KC and DeShaun Watson is in Houston.
The year they took Fournette and then went to the afc championship?
Yes that year which was one year before they went 5-11 and spent 88 million on Nick Foles.
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In comment 14391312 bluepepper said:
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Big, strong arm, pocket passer and positive "face of franchise" type guy. Yet, they seem to have ruled him out very early on. Very odd IMO. If it were another team I'd be tempted to say smokescreen but the Giants don't usually roll that way. Still part of me wonders...
Pretty sure he left town today, wouldn’t say he’s been ruled out.
I’m just hoping this is to pressure Cincy into trading up.
Of course they have met with him but pretty much everything we've heard from early on is that the Giants are not going to take him.
I’m of the school of thought that thinks “anything making headlines before the draft is BS”
Somewhat related, I’ve got a buddy with a Jets connect (asshat, if you will) and they are pretty much dead set on trading down for more picks. They have Darnold, Leveon, but a putrid OL and want to get an OL/TE for Darnold .... Cincinnati being 1 of the teams
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In comment 14391324 bluepepper said:
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lesson with Bortles and 3 years later they didn't reach for a QB. And so Patrick Mahomes is in KC and DeShaun Watson is in Houston.
The year they took Fournette and then went to the afc championship?
Yes that year which was one year before they went 5-11 and spent 88 million on Nick Foles.
Hindsight is fun, isn’t it? You do realize the fact that the afc championship was even a possibility with that bum only proves my point regarding the run game/defense/supporting cast right?
I’m not defending Bortles, he’s garbage ... and yet guys like him and Keenum were 1 game away from the SB. The franchise QB is lovely, but it only matters when you have a good supporting cast around him and a defense could enough to stop offenses from time to time. Let’s use this draft to get the Giants defense back to that point. All I’m saying.
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In comment 14391175 Giants38 said:
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In comment 14391154 AcidTest said:
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But if he's still available at #17, then quite possibly yes. The problem is that he may not be mobile enough for Shurmur.
People have to start understanding this. You don't pass up a QB at 6 and hope he falls to 17. If you're doing that, you don't like the guy enough to draft him anywhere. Plain and simple, you only draft a QB you think is going to be your franchise QB. If you evaluate him as such, you pick him at 6 and don't risk losing him because someone picks him before 17 (or you are unable to trade up to get him before that spot).
Where exactly did this mantra come from? Everyone is repeating it too. This is the thinking that Jacksonville used when they used a #3 overall on Blake Bortles.
It’s BBI mob speak. Something that passes for insight and becomes the unquestioned gospel truth without anyone questioning it.
I don't care what others say. You should know that about me. You pick a guy you love because you don't risk losing him. If you love a QB - and believe he is the future franchise QB for your team - why would you risk losing that guy because you'd think the value board places him at 17? It's stupid talk.
As for the Jags, they were right in taking Bortles at 3 if they believed he was the franchise QB. Just because they got it wrong doesn't mean their thinking was incorrect. Justice is the process, not the outcome, so to speak. No one cares where you took the guy if he pans out. You think anyone cares that KC gave up a future first - same for Houston - to get Mahomes or Watson, respectively? No way.
Thank you. Music to my ears ... Your input always greatly appreciated
Maybe they are all of a sudden experts at misdirection. I'm not going to get my hopes up, but it would be nice to see the Giants actually run the smokescreen game for once. I'll tell you, if they did it would actually give me more confidence in the front office.
I love what Gettleman has done so far and demanding Peppers was a brilliant move. He’s going to thrive in this scheme.
Any insight on WRa? I’d love a guy like AJ Brown or Hakeem Butler or Paris Campbell in blue
Thank you, I feel like WR value could be there at 37 ... I believe Eli can still get it done, hopefully a big body WR added
I don't see how you can just "punt to next year". You think the Giants are going to be good. If so, how exactly do you plan on going about getting a QB in the draft next year, if we are drafting between 15 and 20? Giving up our firsts in 2021 and 2022 to do so? You can't have it both ways.
You can trust Gettleman all you want. To each his own. I refuse to do so, given the fact that he openly ignores analytics, admitted to refusing to shop the ODB offer, and generally sounds as if he has no idea what he is doing. Now, if he drafts Haskins, I'll change my tune.
In a week, we'll see how this goes down. But your point about four QBs going in the top 15 underscores why the Giants need to pick a QB at 6 if they are serious about getting one. Why waste extra capital to move up from 17 and also risk losing your guy? Just take the QB at 6 and go D or whatever at 17.
Last year you said they were not going QB, and you were right. I'm not going to sit here and question that again. Chances are you'll get your wish, and we'll have Eli start here until he dies on the field. I'd rather us field a competent team, but so be it.
I assume you mean Haskins, not Winston. In any event, if a guy is in play at 17, the guy should be in play at 6. Is there someone so good at 6 that the Giants simply refuse to pass up for a QB? Am I missing something? Because otherwise we could get a QB at 6 and still get an impact defender at 17.
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Nothing specific on wr. However I suspect it's certainly in play for sure
Thank you, I feel like WR value could be there at 37 ... I believe Eli can still get it done, hopefully a big body WR added
I'm a known non-believer in Eli, so I'll continue to get tarred and feathered for this, but when exactly will people stop believing in Eli? When is enough, enough? I'm just wondering.
I hope so I believed that last year and started to think I'm mistaken. One thing is for sure Eli has no more excuses. The line should be good has talent and play makers at the skill positions, the offense will go as far as he takes them. Well get our definite answer on Eli next year.
Haskins is not even close to jamies. That is just wrong. I live in Tampa Bay. James is who he was in college a gamer turnover machine, but less gamer in the pros. What about Haskins game reminds you of that.
His red zone # are poor. As a Penn St fan, i remember wishing Ohio St passed it....not a good thing for him.
I am nearly 60 and run a faster 40.....and i think fitter.
I put him 4th behind Lock, Murray and Jones.....but
If he is only one there at 17....sure...he has enough to certainly work with.....
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My understanding is things have gotten murky, in terms of qb at 17, as many believe Murray, lock, Jones and Haskins may go top 15. If so do the Giants spend draft capital and trade up from 17 to get a qb or punt to next year?
I don't see how you can just "punt to next year". You think the Giants are going to be good. If so, how exactly do you plan on going about getting a QB in the draft next year, if we are drafting between 15 and 20? Giving up our firsts in 2021 and 2022 to do so? You can't have it both ways.
You can trust Gettleman all you want. To each his own. I refuse to do so, given the fact that he openly ignores analytics, admitted to refusing to shop the ODB offer, and generally sounds as if he has no idea what he is doing. Now, if he drafts Haskins, I'll change my tune.
In a week, we'll see how this goes down. But your point about four QBs going in the top 15 underscores why the Giants need to pick a QB at 6 if they are serious about getting one. Why waste extra capital to move up from 17 and also risk losing your guy? Just take the QB at 6 and go D or whatever at 17.
Last year you said they were not going QB, and you were right. I'm not going to sit here and question that again. Chances are you'll get your wish, and we'll have Eli start here until he dies on the field. I'd rather us field a competent team, but so be it.
If we draft well for defense with our top 2, maybe 3, picks this year, I absolutely would trade three successive #1’s to move up in 2020 for Fromm or Herbert. We would have more talent at more positions instead of missing a defensive impact player so that we could reach just to settle at QB.
...6.
That's my bet.
They did tons of work on the QBs last year as well.
Punt — this would be a great outcome. An awesome defensive player or OT would be sitting there at 17 if 4 QBs go top 15.
I like lock also. And he needs to be taken at six to guarantee we don’t lose him. Any number of teams could trade up for him even at the Jax pick immediately after us.
Trade up for the defender.
There’s nothing similar in Haskins and Winston’s games besides skin color and build.
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In comment 14391328 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14391324 bluepepper said:
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lesson with Bortles and 3 years later they didn't reach for a QB. And so Patrick Mahomes is in KC and DeShaun Watson is in Houston.
The year they took Fournette and then went to the afc championship?
Yes that year which was one year before they went 5-11 and spent 88 million on Nick Foles.
Hindsight is fun, isn’t it? You do realize the fact that the afc championship was even a possibility with that bum only proves my point regarding the run game/defense/supporting cast right?
I’m not defending Bortles, he’s garbage ... and yet guys like him and Keenum were 1 game away from the SB. The franchise QB is lovely, but it only matters when you have a good supporting cast around him and a defense could enough to stop offenses from time to time. Let’s use this draft to get the Giants defense back to that point. All I’m saying.
What you’re missing is that it’s much harder to be competitive year and year out relying on a defense and running game. Jacksonville’s went from one of the best to bad in a year, there’s too many ebbs and flows and too many moving parts to rely on it. Just look at the 2016 vs 2017 Giants.
It’s much easier to be competitive over multiple years when you have very good QB play.
No fucking way.
You either take the QB at 6 or you dont like one enough.
The same is true of “unless Bosa, QW or Allen slip”. If you think 1 of the guys is your next franchise QB why would a defensive player matter?
It’ll be a QB at 6 (or higher) if they like any of them.
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In comment 14391348 jtgiants said:
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Nothing specific on wr. However I suspect it's certainly in play for sure
Thank you, I feel like WR value could be there at 37 ... I believe Eli can still get it done, hopefully a big body WR added
I'm a known non-believer in Eli, so I'll continue to get tarred and feathered for this, but when exactly will people stop believing in Eli? When is enough, enough? I'm just wondering.
In comment 14391354 Giants38 said:
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In comment 14391348 jtgiants said:
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Nothing specific on wr. However I suspect it's certainly in play for sure
Thank you, I feel like WR value could be there at 37 ... I believe Eli can still get it done, hopefully a big body WR added
I'm a known non-believer in Eli, so I'll continue to get tarred and feathered for this, but when exactly will people stop believing in Eli? When is enough, enough? I'm just wondering.
Put me in the camp that wants a new “franchise QB”, but also doesn’t want the Giants to reach on mediocre prospects and bypass elite talent
elsewhere just for the sake of taking a QB. If the 2020 class was available this year, you’d hear me banging the QB drum.
Unfortunately, this QB class is lacking while the elite talent resides mostly on defense. So, what a smart team does is continue to stockpile elite talent where it is available to them and then adjust accordingly.
We all want a young gun to root for. Some want them to take a QB just to do so while blaming Eli for all of our problems. Others acknowledge you have to take what the draft class gives you, and the 2019 draft can
(and should) go towards building the defense up.
Build the OL, develop a dominant run game and effective play action pass game, and stockpile young elite talent on defense - lets get back to “Giants football”, no more of this “b-ball on grass” “the game has changed” BS.
Games are still won and lost in the trenches, no matter how much the game has changed it’s still football. Run the ball, stuff the run, hit the other teams QB.
Short version: Yes the Giants need a young new shiny “franchise QB” ... They can also still be competitive with Eli as long as he has a functional OL and a defense that actually makes a stop from time to time.
Eli has lost a little bit, but he is not the problem weighing down this franchise like so many people want to claim. He can still play, he just needs help. Reese wasted his prime by building this offense like it was a fantasy football draft and forcing Eli to play behind pathetic OLs. Eli, and this offense, looked much better in the 2nd half of last year once the OL played better.
Shorter version: Put me in the camp that wants a new QB, but only when the prospects available dictate they are worthy of a top pick. This class is not that, so draft accordingly and start stockpiling young studs on the defense.
With the softer schedule, improved OL (Zietler was a huge acquisition), this team can complete for a wildcard spot if they address defense early and often. Draft best player available, make life easier for Eli AND the young guy eventually replacing him.
/novel
No fucking way.
You either take the QB at 6 or you dont like one enough.
The same is true of “unless Bosa, QW or Allen slip”. If you think 1 of the guys is your next franchise QB why would a defensive player matter?
It’ll be a QB at 6 (or higher) if they like any of them.
If Williams or Allen falls to 6, we should all be jumping for joy while the Giants immediately submit the selection (Williams would be a dream).
Lock is the only QB at 6 I can get behind, as he has the size and physical ability (arm talent, athleticism) every team would want in a QB. He’s a perfect candidate to sit behind Eli, learn from the vet, while getting
work with Shurmur to develop.
(I wouldn’t take a QB at 6, but Lock I can understand the temptation. He makes a lot of “wow” throws and can move. Upside is tremendous.)
Lock and Jones are more more mobile than Haskins. Shurmur seems to want a mobile QB. I don't like Lock or Jones enough to trade up from #17 for either, but the Giants might.
Thank you, I’ve been trying to watch game clips to get excited by Haskins and I just don’t get it at all. Glad the giants seem to agree.
I did notice Paris Campbell a lot in his highlights. I’d love that wr at 37
This x 1000. You can want a new QB and still acknowledge this class isn’t worth the investment - especially with so much D talent available
Eli has lost a little bit, but he is not the problem weighing down this franchise like so many people want to claim.
But what if he is? Or are there going to be excuses if after the oline additions the past couple of years and potential two first rounders added on defense if the team once again is in the top 5 next year?
He’s more done than you think.
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Eli has lost a little bit, but he is not the problem weighing down this franchise like so many people want to claim.
But what if he is? Or are there going to be excuses if after the oline additions the past couple of years and potential two first rounders added on defense if the team once again is in the top 5 next year?
He’s more done than you think.
Then we have a complete team minus the QB and, if your position is correct, will not be successful this year and therefore be perfectly positioned to take an elite QB next year rather than settle this year.
Sure.
But the evidence the past three seasons points to that he doesn’t play well consistently enough to be a starter in the NFL. People want to believe he’s not done, but odds are he he is than has enough left in the tank to make a playoff run.
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...a team shouldn’t use its top pick on the best available bad QB. It’s that simple.
This x 1000. You can want a new QB and still acknowledge this class isn’t worth the investment - especially with so much D talent available
+2.
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It will be interesting if Manning plays well to see what the "excuses" are for him playing well.
Sure.
But the evidence the past three seasons points to that he doesn’t play well consistently enough to be a starter in the NFL. People want to believe he’s not done, but odds are he he is than has enough left in the tank to make a playoff run.
Not sure how you can evaluate him well enough to say that based on how bad the OL has been over the last several years. Factor in two different offensive schemes and coaching staffs and I just can't understand how you can form such an unmovable position on where he truly stands right now.
If he lasts till #17, you consider it, but certainly no need to run to the podium even then.
As it should be.
It’s over for Eli. I love the guy but he is not the answer.
The only offensive guy who might give the Giants pause is if by some miracle Murray fell to #6. If that happened, I'd be very curious to see what they do. But if Murray ever got to #3, someone would trade with the Jets to get him, so it's moot.
The Giants defense was terrible. You can't win without a pass rush. They need to get an impact defender who will start on the first day of training camp.
Seems highly unlikely.
Haskins at 6, given the D prospects available, is a nightmare
Welcome back, SaqBar.
But part of what's going on with the Giants is they HAVE TO get studs at the top of the draft and take advantage of sucking so bad. Part of the reason they're in this mess is getting zero return on 2 top 10 picks Flowers & Apple. Killer to miss that high.
Last year - staring at Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Jackson Gettleman goes "sure thing" Barkley, and would've taken Chubb if not. This year sounds like the same - he'll be staring at 3-4 franchise QBs and will take a guaranteed stud to improve the team.
Can't say I'm against it - but this is a very unique situation where we aren't heavily prioritizing QB over all other positions. It's debatable, to be sure.
Granted, you have ears where most of us don't, but I'd hardly consider it misdirection if they draft Haskins, not with the contingent of coaches, scouts, execs that they sent to the OSU pro day.
If anything, it would mean that maybe some of the inside sources that you guys have might not have all the access to DG's thinking (just saying maybe), but I can't see how drafting the guy who had by far the largest NYG representation at his pro day could in any way be considered misdirection.
It’s over for Eli. I love the guy but he is not the answer.
Agreed. But it’s starting to become clear at this point that it will not be a QB at 6. Even I have to concede that. But as I have said before, if you don’t value a QB enough to take him at 6, it’s not worth taking the guy at 17, either. I don’t see any can’t miss guys waiting for the Giants at 6, so the rationale for doing so and hoping “their guy” falls to them at 17 is suspect. And if they think they can compete next year, it’s hard to see how they plan on getting a QB next year, either. But maybe that’s just it, they want to ride Eli in 2020, too. John Mara said it at the owners’ meetings, so I guess you can’t ignore it.
I was hoping it was a smokescreen, but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade, I suppose.
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defense at #6.
The only offensive guy who might give the Giants pause is if by some miracle Murray fell to #6. If that happened, I'd be very curious to see what they do. But if Murray ever got to #3, someone would trade with the Jets to get him, so it's moot.
The Giants defense was terrible. You can't win without a pass rush. They need to get an impact defender who will start on the first day of training camp.
In my estimation, they are more than an impact defender away from winning. JT and many others disagree. We’re about to find out.
When the dust settles, there are many years that a starting QB you can build around does not come out of college.
When the dust settles, there are many years that a starting QB you can build around does not come out of college.
Not in the last five years. College/HS are producing guys that can play. It isn't the scarcity that it once was.
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In comment 14391736 Eric from BBI said:
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defense at #6.
The only offensive guy who might give the Giants pause is if by some miracle Murray fell to #6. If that happened, I'd be very curious to see what they do. But if Murray ever got to #3, someone would trade with the Jets to get him, so it's moot.
The Giants defense was terrible. You can't win without a pass rush. They need to get an impact defender who will start on the first day of training camp.
In my estimation, they are more than an impact defender away from winning. JT and many others disagree. We’re about to find out.
I agree. If I had my way, I'd use #6, #17, and #37 on defense. I'd load up like the Giants did in 1986. But honestly, I'd be happy to see them go with 2 defensive players and 1 OL with those picks.
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I don’t know what some of you have been watching the last few years, I certainly don’t know why you think it will get better now that he’s even older. If you don’t like Haskins that’s one thing. Retooling around Eli is not the answer though. He is a bottom of the barrel quarterback, I don’t know what number you put on it but it’s low. He’s definitely in the bottom third, probably bottom five and you will find many people who know what they are talking about who think Eli is the worst or second worst starter in the league.
It’s over for Eli. I love the guy but he is not the answer.
Agreed. But it’s starting to become clear at this point that it will not be a QB at 6. Even I have to concede that. But as I have said before, if you don’t value a QB enough to take him at 6, it’s not worth taking the guy at 17, either. I don’t see any can’t miss guys waiting for the Giants at 6, so the rationale for doing so and hoping “their guy” falls to them at 17 is suspect. And if they think they can compete next year, it’s hard to see how they plan on getting a QB next year, either. But maybe that’s just it, they want to ride Eli in 2020, too. John Mara said it at the owners’ meetings, so I guess you can’t ignore it.
I was hoping it was a smokescreen, but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade, I suppose.
I couldn’t agree more. I have been screaming this exact thing since the season ended. Those here that still think we can win with Eli have not been watching the last five years or are just in straight denial.
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
That is all true. But Giants’ fans share your opinion. Non-Giants’ fans share mine. People here are letting feelings towards Eli get in the way. I truly believe that. Whatever the case, if the insiders are right, the Eli apologists are going to get their way - again - and we’ll go from there. My concern is that more excuses will be made, maybe an easier schedule Nets us 6 or 7 wins, and we run this thing back again.
At this point, I am losing faith that this regime has any intention of putting a real succession plan for Eli in place.
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
Honestly I'm not as arrogant as most of the people convinced and claiming he is a bottom 3rd QB in the league. I give my opinion that he is not anymore washed up than his contemporaries, rather based on clear facts that our OL has sucked since 2011 (and not just in pass blocking, not sure how anyone can deny the run clocking horridness), and he is in 2 new schemes in the last 3 years. There are plenty of examples of good long throws from last season.
Honestly he may or may not be done. It is what it is. But this kind of BS spouted over and over just really makes me want to see an actual mediocre+ OL with him completely kicking ass this season.... just to shut everyone the hell up about his "bottom 3rdness" It's just so old and tired at this point. I really hope he kills it for that reason.
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In comment 14391750 Oscar said:
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I don’t know what some of you have been watching the last few years, I certainly don’t know why you think it will get better now that he’s even older. If you don’t like Haskins that’s one thing. Retooling around Eli is not the answer though. He is a bottom of the barrel quarterback, I don’t know what number you put on it but it’s low. He’s definitely in the bottom third, probably bottom five and you will find many people who know what they are talking about who think Eli is the worst or second worst starter in the league.
It’s over for Eli. I love the guy but he is not the answer.
Agreed. But it’s starting to become clear at this point that it will not be a QB at 6. Even I have to concede that. But as I have said before, if you don’t value a QB enough to take him at 6, it’s not worth taking the guy at 17, either. I don’t see any can’t miss guys waiting for the Giants at 6, so the rationale for doing so and hoping “their guy” falls to them at 17 is suspect. And if they think they can compete next year, it’s hard to see how they plan on getting a QB next year, either. But maybe that’s just it, they want to ride Eli in 2020, too. John Mara said it at the owners’ meetings, so I guess you can’t ignore it.
I was hoping it was a smokescreen, but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade, I suppose.
I couldn’t agree more. I have been screaming this exact thing since the season ended. Those here that still think we can win with Eli have not been watching the last five years or are just in straight denial.
Pretty sure Eli went in to Lambeau in the playoffs (2 years ago!) and played lights out while certain individuals played horribly and dropped what should’ve been TDs and 3rd down conversions ... but yes this is all Eli’s fault
(I want a new QB too, I’m just not going to be an irrational human and take a QB just to take 1.)
This team could’ve contended for a playoff spot last year, with Eli, if the defense wasn’t such a disgrace. That’s all Eli’s fault too.
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In comment 14391357 jtgiants said:
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
Honestly I'm not as arrogant as most of the people convinced and claiming he is a bottom 3rd QB in the league. I give my opinion that he is not anymore washed up than his contemporaries, rather based on clear facts that our OL has sucked since 2011 (and not just in pass blocking, not sure how anyone can deny the run clocking horridness), and he is in 2 new schemes in the last 3 years. There are plenty of examples of good long throws from last season.
Honestly he may or may not be done. It is what it is. But this kind of BS spouted over and over just really makes me want to see an actual mediocre+ OL with him completely kicking ass this season.... just to shut everyone the hell up about his "bottom 3rdness" It's just so old and tired at this point. I really hope he kills it for that reason.
He didn’t “kill it” when he had one of the best lines in football that helped carry us to a Super Bowl. We were still the sixth seed and had a magical run. Eli has never “killed it”. Look at his annual stats.
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In comment 14391808 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14391357 jtgiants said:
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
Honestly I'm not as arrogant as most of the people convinced and claiming he is a bottom 3rd QB in the league. I give my opinion that he is not anymore washed up than his contemporaries, rather based on clear facts that our OL has sucked since 2011 (and not just in pass blocking, not sure how anyone can deny the run clocking horridness), and he is in 2 new schemes in the last 3 years. There are plenty of examples of good long throws from last season.
Honestly he may or may not be done. It is what it is. But this kind of BS spouted over and over just really makes me want to see an actual mediocre+ OL with him completely kicking ass this season.... just to shut everyone the hell up about his "bottom 3rdness" It's just so old and tired at this point. I really hope he kills it for that reason.
He didn’t “kill it” when he had one of the best lines in football that helped carry us to a Super Bowl. We were still the sixth seed and had a magical run. Eli has never “killed it”. Look at his annual stats.
So he needs a good supporting cast to win SBs? You mean like literally every other QB?
Pretty clear you’re just anti-Eli in general, so feel free to stop commenting.
It’s a shame those boat party boyz forgot how to catch the ball, maybe Eli would’ve taken us on another magical playoff run - he certainly wasn’t the issue that day.
I could cite his all-time stats and HOF case, but then you’ll say some BS about it being a “passing league” and his stats are now somewhat inflated so we’ll just end it here. Eli sucks and is the reason for everything negative associated with the Giants now and forever. Feel better?
He didn’t “kill it” when he had one of the best lines in football that helped carry us to a Super Bowl. We were still the sixth seed and had a magical run. Eli has never “killed it”. Look at his annual stats.
Ah. Agenda exposed. I rest my case.
I do not want them to reach
If it is Haskins then so be it.
I do not think that Haskins is the 6th best player in the draft.
There are red flags that I can't ignore;
The QB is the leader of the team. He leads by example.
I do not know how Haskins could come to the combine out of shape.This is the most important interview of his life. He should have been in the best shape of his life.
Haskins is not a great athlete. His 5:04 40 is much worse than I had expected. He did not do the other tests so I am left wondering about his innate skills.
Haskins has a very good and accurate arm but it is not elite. The velocity on his throws is 52 MPH which is not very impressive. His lack of arm strength shows in long throws. Haskins puts a lot of air on his deep throws. That works in college but does not work in the NFL.
When Haskins is under duress in the pocket, there are times when he slides nicely to avoid pressure. But then there are other times when he loses his composure and makes bad decisions. This can be seen in his lack of efficiency in the red zone. OSU was one of the worst teams in red zone efficiency.
DG keeps talking about value when it comes to the draft. Why? Because value is determined by how much you are willing to pay for something.
What are the drivers for a QBs value to this franchise?
Eli to them right now (whether BBI agrees or not) has more value than any young QB in this draft.
So with that said, they will look to 'protect' the current investment at QB moreso than a future one.
QB at 6 because of the level of investment means this is Elis last year. Also means media pressure/circus probably every time there is a hint of struggle THIS year.
Trade up from 17 likely means close to that as well.
With the 17th pick (without trade up) its still a high pick but it isn't your top pick at 6 and could potentially be argued either way. If Lock and Jones gone by 17 then this becomes moot anyways. If they are there....
Truthfully I see second round or later or trade back into first. That affords 1-2 years of sitting behind Eli (because if he does great this year they may very likely extend him another).
That is why I keep thinking Grier ends up being the ideal target. A guy with enough polish while not being more 'obscure' target like a 4th round Lauletta.
In other words, a pretty good QB prospect but not such a highly touted guy that will require such a high investment and therefore force their hand to move quicker on Eli than they'd want to.
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In comment 14391357 jtgiants said:
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Enough is enough when he can no longer play. He can still play and play well. There's not a throw he can't make. Im sorry. Your wrong on eli. He still has life and can still play
Then I guess we'll see his downward trends in advanced metrics like air yards, VOA, DVOA, net yards per play, YAR, DYAR reverse themselves this year behind a better OL, right? Obviously the reliance on shorter throws can only be attributed to shoddy OL play and not any decline in Eli's physical skills.
No matter how much certainty you choose to place into your opinion, it's still an opinion. And whether or not Eli is declining (perhaps precipitously) is an unanswered question. That's reality.
Honestly I'm not as arrogant as most of the people convinced and claiming he is a bottom 3rd QB in the league. I give my opinion that he is not anymore washed up than his contemporaries, rather based on clear facts that our OL has sucked since 2011 (and not just in pass blocking, not sure how anyone can deny the run clocking horridness), and he is in 2 new schemes in the last 3 years. There are plenty of examples of good long throws from last season.
Honestly he may or may not be done. It is what it is. But this kind of BS spouted over and over just really makes me want to see an actual mediocre+ OL with him completely kicking ass this season.... just to shut everyone the hell up about his "bottom 3rdness" It's just so old and tired at this point. I really hope he kills it for that reason.
Nothing about my post said he's bottom third. I'm just responding to the seeming certainty in JT's posts. I think we can all agree that Eli has been dealt a shit hand by the front office and his productivity has no doubt been impacted by having a garbage OL in front of him and - until last year - a revolving door of journeyman RBs providing no support in the run game.
That said, he's still 38 years old and there are some indications that Eli is in decline in addition to the other factors that have hampered his play over the past few years. It's not unreasonable to think that Eli might be very close to the end of his productive days even if the other elements of the offense are significantly improved. My point is simply that we'll find out how much of it is on the OL (and other parts of the offense, including changing the scheme twice) and how much of it is on Eli himself.
For anyone to speak in absolutes about Eli's current and near future ability - and that can be negative or positive - is foolish, no matter how well connected they are. It's foolish for DG himself to speak in absolutes, but at least he's the GM. For anyone else, telling people "your [sic] wrong" and "[t]here's not a throw he can't make" is silly. No one can possibly know that right now. There's too much potential evidence to the contrary. And for anyone declaring that Eli is unequivocally done, that's just as silly - we can see that Eli played better later in the season.
Like I've said a few times, it's an unanswered question. It's not a force-fed media narrative. It's not an agenda. It's not a fact either way. It's a question. And we're all going to get more insight into the answer this season.
But there's no easy way out.
He also said the QB position is “thick” (deep) and that they will stay true to their board and not reach or treat the position any differently than other positions (not reaching on a QB just to take 1). He also mentioned Lauletta as well (“Don’t forget about Kyle”)
[insert clever Haskins/“thick” jokes here]
Sounds a whole lot more to me as if D is a lock at 6 andthey truly think Eli still has it, and won’t reach just to take 1.