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Asshat rumor(s)

gidiefor : Mod : 4/18/2019 11:57 am
I'm placing this out there, I have no way of verifying it, so take it for what you will. An asshat who has decided to remain anonymous sent me the following which I cut and pasted as sent:

Quote:
The giants and bills have discussed a deal to move up to #9 for jones. I'm told it's more likely they just take Jones at six. reason being is the giants think both washington and Cincinatti want Jones as well.

Giants may still trade up to 9 if they take Jones at six for either a defensive player or hockenson. They've fielded calls on Engram as they dont see him as a fit in a powerfootball esque offense.

Remmers is a done deal as long as the giants are pleased with the results of his physical. Contract details all worked out as I already told you.
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Remmers contract done  
jayg5 : 4/18/2019 1:24 pm : link
“As I already told you.”...

Has to be same person as onetimeasshat, no?
RE: I see nothing special in  
Thegratefulhead : 4/18/2019 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14391938 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
Jones.
He has no plus traits. Milktoast.
Gidiefor  
Fast Eddie : 4/18/2019 1:29 pm : link
Can eliminate onetimeasshat from this equation without naming the hidden asshat.
C’mon Gidie, don’t just throw a hand grenade into the room and leave.
RE: Gidiefor  
FrankieR : 4/18/2019 1:30 pm : link
In comment 14392177 Fast Eddie said:
Quote:
Can eliminate onetimeasshat from this equation without naming the hidden asshat.
C’mon Gidie, don’t just throw a hand grenade into the room and leave.


Agreed.
RE: RE: RE: RE: What bothers me is doing it while Eli is here  
FranchiseQB : 4/18/2019 1:39 pm : link
In comment 14392117 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14392062 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:




No.. a rookie heir apparent at qb should start when he is ready. In most cases that is not week 1. They usually need time to catch up to the speed of the game. Very few rookie qbs are ready week 1. But if we draft Jones andhe ready week 4, then yes he must start then.



Still don't agree but I hear you - fair enough.

Investing a top ten pick in a QB should completely change the dynamic of a team's plan for the year (unless the QB in place is still relatively young and very established).

The goal should be finding the fastest way to get the QB into as many live games as possible, with a minimum of eight as the starter. Reps/experience are the foundation to determining if the pick can be successful or not. Otherwise, it's a wasted a contract year.

We are in an age where these QBs have been exposed to so many high level camps, coaching, and the latest advancements (techniques and training) that they are more ready than ever to hit the ground running. Like you said, and I agree, the biggest adjustment is the speed of the game.


you don't want your guy to get hurt because he can't process the game. that is really all you wait for. i agree that it might now be a smaller window than ever before but most qbs need 2 to 6 games to catch up to the game.
Dear God  
GiantsLaw : 4/18/2019 1:41 pm : link
please no Jones (ever) or Hockenson (@ #6)
Asshats...  
Brown_Hornet : 4/18/2019 1:41 pm : link
...generate clicks.

Good times~
As stated several times  
Jim Bur(n)t : 4/18/2019 1:45 pm : link
If we take ANY position but K will fill a need on this roster.

BPA as this thing unfolds, keeping all picks!
Kiss the ring  
Brown Recluse : 4/18/2019 1:47 pm : link
.
I wonder if the trade  
RobCarpenter : 4/18/2019 1:57 pm : link
will end up being Engram to the Patriots. Hopefully for one of their second or third round picks. It would not shock me.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/18/2019 1:59 pm : link
Only 1 more week.
RE: I'm not a Drew Boylhart fanboy. Far from it, in fact.  
MM_in_NYC : 4/18/2019 2:00 pm : link
In comment 14392035 Klaatu said:
Quote:
But just for the hell of it (and because I don't think Milton has posted this yet), I'll link to his assessment of Daniel Jones, whom he has listed as his third QB behind Haskins and Murray. Daniel Jones - ( New Window )


I like Boylhart as much or more than the next guy - been following him for 15+ years. He is HORRIBLE at QBs. He's fantastic at OL. Not to say that he's never right about QBs but every year he loves QBs that turn our horrible. It is his weakest position to evaluate by far. And for the record, I like Jones.
RE: In the limited  
Stan in LA : 4/18/2019 2:02 pm : link
In comment 14391966 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
film I've seen on Jones, he appears to be a very smart, dink-and-dunk QB with an average arm, decent mobility. Personally, I don't see top 10 talent there.

This.
RE: RE: What bothers me is doing it while Eli is here  
Brown Recluse : 4/18/2019 2:03 pm : link
In comment 14392049 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14391947 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.



This is 100% true.

Alas, Jones is the wrong idea in so many ways. And it gives me even more concern that Gettleman does not know how to evaluate the QB position.


Wow everyone! We've got an expert talent evaluator here on QB talent. Right here on BBI. More knowledgeable than Pat Shurmur himself. Maybe you should take over for Sy on the draft preview posts...at least the QB breakdowns.
RE: Dear God  
GFAN52 : 4/18/2019 2:04 pm : link
In comment 14392194 GiantsLaw said:
Quote:
please no Jones (ever) or Hockenson (@ #6)


Agreed.
.  
Danny Kanell : 4/18/2019 2:09 pm : link
Stan's not a fan so now i'm all in on him. Not even kidding.
RE: .  
Brown Recluse : 4/18/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14392248 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
Stan's not a fan so now i'm all in on him. Not even kidding.


Same lol
RE: What bothers me is doing it while Eli is here  
mrvax : 4/18/2019 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14391947 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.


Agreed. What would be the actual benefit of letting him sit a full year?
RE: RE: In the limited  
mrvax : 4/18/2019 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14392237 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 14391966 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


film I've seen on Jones, he appears to be a very smart, dink-and-dunk QB with an average arm, decent mobility. Personally, I don't see top 10 talent there.


This.


Agreed. I see his ceiling as an Alex Smith.
Alex Smith is a pretty high ceiling  
Go Terps : 4/18/2019 2:20 pm : link
When people say Jones isn't particularly talented, what specifically are they talking about?

When I watch his highlights I see a good prospect.
.  
Danny Kanell : 4/18/2019 2:33 pm : link
When/if we draft a QB, I think everyone needs some perspective. None of us know what the hell we're talking about. Here's a compilation of scouting reports on Aaron Rodgers on 4/23/05. Let's just hope we get the right guy. Draft position really doesn't matter all that much, as long as we find the right guy.

Quote:
April 23, 2005: What scouts were saying about Aaron Rodgers

April 23, 2005: Ted Thompson makes the call on Aaron Rodgers


What NFL scouts told the Journal Sentinel's Bob McGinn before the draft about quarterback Aaron Rodgers:

Marc Ross, Buffalo: "He's a little short. The thing you worry about is those (Jeff) Tedford guys. They don't do anything for a couple years and then they have a good year or two. Who of his quarterbacks has done what they're supposed to do? None of them. Is he just working magic with great college quarterbacks or just manufacturing guys?"

AFC scout: "I like him. He's a very talented guy. A lot of quarterbacks that were system people have not done very well. That puts up a red flag. Not that he is one of them. He could be an exception. But I can't get it out of my craw."

Rich Snead, Tennessee: "I like him. I just don't know if he's maxed out. He's more accurate than (Kyle) Boller but probably not as athletic. He's a better player than Akili Smith. He's more athletic than (Trent) Dilfer was. He's a little more mobile than Joey Harrington. He had to go to a JC because no one would recruit him because they said he was too small. He's been busting his (expletive) his whole life to get to this point. I just don't know how much more he has to give."

NFC scout: "(Alex) Smith is the better athlete."

AFC scout: "I think he has some upside although there are some things that are just ordinary about him."

Jerry Angelo, Chicago: "I'd give Rodgers the edge (over Smith) just because he was easier to evaluate. And there's a little more arm. But the edge is negligible."

NFC scout: "I think he has a good chance of being a bust. Just like every other Tedford-coached quarterback. Thing I struggle with him is he gets sacked a lot. He doesn't have great ability to change the release of the football. He's mechanically very rigid. Brett Favre can change his release point and find different windows. There will be more growing pains with Alex Smith but in the end he has a much better chance to be much better."

NFC scout: "The guys that Tedford has had, what have they developed into? They're too well-schooled. So mechanical. So robotic. I don't know if they become good pro players. I think Rodgers is in that same mold."

AFC scout: "I don't like him. He's a clone of Harrington and Boller. They all throw the same way. What have those guys done? Nothing. If you take him in the second round, fine. Heady guy. They do a marvelous job of coaching quarterbacks there. I don't think he's as good as the top quarterbacks coming out last year."

AFC scout: "I don't think he's in the class of the quarterbacks that came out last year. Strong arm. Pretty good athlete. Still has some holes in his game."

Bill Polian, Indianapolis: "I see a guy who has good arm strength. I see some athletic ability. I see a guy who was pretty good with a good team. I see a guy who's in a pretty efficient offense. Am I certain that he's going to come in and lead my team to the Promised Land? I can't say that. I'm not even sure I can say that about Alex Smith."

AFC scout: "He's a system quarterback. 3-, 5-, 7-step guy. Can't create on his own. Panics under pressure. Gets flustered easy. I don't think there's a quarterback in the draft worthy of a first-round pick. I'm dead serious. None of them are worth it."

NFC scout: "He fit right into the Cal system. He probably executed that as well as anybody. He doesn't have as strong an arm as Boller but can make the same reads and play the scheme as well as Boller did.


Link - ( New Window )
bw  
BigBlueCane : 4/18/2019 2:38 pm : link
is looking for unicorns at the QB position b/c this class and next year's class all are flawed to one degree or another. Does Locke have his head on straight? Is Haskin's production a product of the talent around him? Does Jones have the Arm strength to be an effective NFL QB? Will Fromm or Herbert overcome their decidedly mediocre at best offensive coaching and develop? Is Tua the product of Bama's talent, can he carry a team by himself?

It's just a matter of how comfortable you feel with associated flaw.
The Alex Smith/Aaron Rodgers discussion here  
RobCarpenter : 4/18/2019 2:43 pm : link
Is amusing if only because the 49ers passed on Rodgers.

I'm sure if the Giants draft Jones at #6 the media will say it was a reach/poor pick, but if the Pats make a trade up into the top 10 to take him the media will say that Little Bill is a genius.
RE: bw  
bw in dc : 4/18/2019 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14392306 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
is looking for unicorns at the QB position b/c this class and next year's class all are flawed to one degree or another. Does Locke have his head on straight? Is Haskin's production a product of the talent around him? Does Jones have the Arm strength to be an effective NFL QB? Will Fromm or Herbert overcome their decidedly mediocre at best offensive coaching and develop? Is Tua the product of Bama's talent, can he carry a team by himself?

It's just a matter of how comfortable you feel with associated flaw.


I agree with all of that, actually.

I wouldn't say, however, I'm looking for a unicorn. I'm analyzing the skills/situations/comps, and then trying to assess the proper value.

I'll say this - next year's class is very fascinating to me. And it's less about Tua and Fromm and more about Herbert and Eason. I think each of them are more talented than Tua and Fromm and have considerably more upside. I'll be watching each carefully this year, especially Eason, who I think could be the prize of 2020.
RE: Alex Smith is a pretty high ceiling  
Matt in SGS : 4/18/2019 2:53 pm : link
In comment 14392268 Go Terps said:
Quote:
When people say Jones isn't particularly talented, what specifically are they talking about?

When I watch his highlights I see a good prospect.


I agree, if you told me Jones is Alex Smith, that's actually not too bad. It's the Ryan Tannehill or Christian Ponder stuff that makes we worried.
Don't know how much validity the Engram stuff has BUT  
Giantz_comeback : 4/18/2019 2:55 pm : link
If we are transforming this team into a power football offense in theory this makes sense. I could see Engram going and then them bringing in either AJ Brown (the receiver they have shown the most interest in) or Hakeem Butler . Both have the ability obliterate people in the downfield blocking game .

3 WR set of Brown or Butler, Tate and Shep? Spread out and run the ball with Barkley with an improved OL and play action off that? Wow.
Eason's situation will be the best of the bunch  
BigBlueCane : 4/18/2019 2:57 pm : link
as he's in the Pac 12 and unlike Herbert, he actually has a competent head coach.

The rest not so much, Fromm's OC is James Coley who was and is a great recruiter/salesman but a shitty OC/Playcaller/developer of talent.



One more thought on Jones, since I know that's what you're waiting for, he is just 21 and comes from a fairly athletic family. There is a very good chance, with an NFL nutritional plan and development staff, he'll continue to develop physically including his arm strength. Duke's support staff was more BB oriented IMO.
Matt  
Go Terps : 4/18/2019 3:01 pm : link
A lot of it is going to be about coaching and scheme fit. I keep coming back to the success Shurmur has had with Sam Bradford. Bradford was always limited, but his timing, rhythm, and accuracy in the short to intermediate passing areas has always been impeccable. That's the similarities I see with Jones - the difference between Jones and Haskins/Lock in the short passing game really stood out even in the pro days. Jones looked seasoned, the other two guys did not.

If we're truly building this team around Barkley, someone with Jones's traits makes sense.
Scrolling through ...  
Beezer : 4/18/2019 3:07 pm : link
not reading ... looking for a response from gidie ...
RE: Scrolling through ...  
Fast Eddie : 4/18/2019 3:20 pm : link
In comment 14392361 Beezer said:
Quote:
not reading ... looking for a response from gidie ...


Me also
RE: Scrolling through ...  
Brown Recluse : 4/18/2019 3:24 pm : link
In comment 14392361 Beezer said:
Quote:
not reading ... looking for a response from gidie ...


Hi Beez.
RE: RE: bw  
dep026 : 4/18/2019 3:46 pm : link
In comment 14392336 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14392306 BigBlueCane said:


Quote:


is looking for unicorns at the QB position b/c this class and next year's class all are flawed to one degree or another. Does Locke have his head on straight? Is Haskin's production a product of the talent around him? Does Jones have the Arm strength to be an effective NFL QB? Will Fromm or Herbert overcome their decidedly mediocre at best offensive coaching and develop? Is Tua the product of Bama's talent, can he carry a team by himself?

It's just a matter of how comfortable you feel with associated flaw.



I agree with all of that, actually.

I wouldn't say, however, I'm looking for a unicorn. I'm analyzing the skills/situations/comps, and then trying to assess the proper value.

I'll say this - next year's class is very fascinating to me. And it's less about Tua and Fromm and more about Herbert and Eason. I think each of them are more talented than Tua and Fromm and have considerably more upside. I'll be watching each carefully this year, especially Eason, who I think could be the prize of 2020.


Jesus Christ. Bw and I agree on something on QBs since I’ve been promoting Eason this offseason.


Time to re-evaluate my stance on life.
RE: What bothers me is doing it while Eli is here  
BlueLou'sBack : 4/18/2019 3:57 pm : link
In comment 14391947 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.


Actually drafting Jones assures us that Eli will be extended to continue as starter through the course of Jones first 4-5 year contract, because Jones will never eclipse Eli on the depth chart.
RE: RE: What bothers me is doing it while Eli is here  
Go Terps : 4/18/2019 4:09 pm : link
In comment 14392435 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14391947 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.



Actually drafting Jones assures us that Eli will be extended to continue as starter through the course of Jones first 4-5 year contract, because Jones will never eclipse Eli on the depth chart.


I don't know. I think this offense has been a terrible fit for Eli since Gilbride left. The things he does well have largely been taken away by the lack of talent around him and his own coaching. It's been a classic case of a square peg in a round hole.
RE: Asshats...  
Mike in Prescott : 4/18/2019 4:12 pm : link
Sad but true. When mods post from known frauds it is a sad day. Keep the views up.

In comment 14392195 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...generate clicks.

Good times~
RE: RE: RE: What bothers me is doing it while Eli is here  
BillKo : 4/18/2019 4:47 pm : link
In comment 14392449 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14392435 BlueLou'sBack said:


Quote:


In comment 14391947 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.



Actually drafting Jones assures us that Eli will be extended to continue as starter through the course of Jones first 4-5 year contract, because Jones will never eclipse Eli on the depth chart.



I don't know. I think this offense has been a terrible fit for Eli since Gilbride left. The things he does well have largely been taken away by the lack of talent around him and his own coaching. It's been a classic case of a square peg in a round hole.


It was fine in '14 and '15. Those were two pretty good years.

It went off the rails under McAdoo in '16 and '17 when you saw him have full control of the offense and it was not the right fit.

I think Shurmur figures a way to utilize Eli this year much more effectively, and a better OL is going to help big time.
RE: Remmers contract done  
stoneman : 4/18/2019 5:02 pm : link
In comment 14392171 jayg5 said:
Quote:
“As I already told you.”...

Has to be same person as onetimeasshat, no?



Has to be the return of "SLADE"
RE: RE: RE: In the limited  
clatterbuck : 4/18/2019 5:03 pm : link
In comment 14392013 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 14391996 Giants38 said:


Quote:


In comment 14391966 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


film I've seen on Jones, he appears to be a very smart, dink-and-dunk QB with an average arm, decent mobility. Personally, I don't see top 10 talent there.



He’s not a top 10-15 guy, and I couldn’t care less what “NFL people” think of the guy. If you watched the Duke games last year, his ball placement - even on many passes he completed - was poor. There isn’t anything he does particularly well.

Picking a guy because of his coach - or his Eli/Peyton connection is sheer stupidity. People are ignoring this because the Giants May be picking Jones because Eli will have an easier time accepting it due to his relationship with Jones. I don’t believe Jones would be considered anywhere near the first if he had not been coached by Cutcliffe. That makes him a huge red flag. Pick the guy because of what you think he can do, not who coached him. I feel like teams love the coach more than the player and are picking him for that reason.



So you don't care what the people who are actual professionals in scouting, who have seen Jones in private workouts, who have interviewed him and his coaches, say? You would rather go by you watching a Duke game or two on CBS? I think this summarizes the youtube generation perfectly.


Yeah, I'm not going to accept the prevailing opinion of medical professionals,I'm going with what my second cousin who went to one year of pharmacy school told me.
Terps I'd agree with that sentiment more if  
BlueLou'sBack : 4/18/2019 5:10 pm : link
I didn't see Shurmur as a better coach than you credit. He doesn't impose his system strictly on a QB disregarding that QBs own strengths, he seems to mold his system around the talent he has, and Eli has been a much better pupil under Shurmur than he was under MacAdoo.

Or maybe Saquon covers up faults and acts as a grout between the stones.

One of the advantages of Shurmur's experience is he knows one size does not fit all.
RE: The Alex Smith/Aaron Rodgers discussion here  
clatterbuck : 4/18/2019 5:11 pm : link
In comment 14392318 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
Is amusing if only because the 49ers passed on Rodgers.

I'm sure if the Giants draft Jones at #6 the media will say it was a reach/poor pick, but if the Pats make a trade up into the top 10 to take him the media will say that Little Bill is a genius.


Yes.
RE: In the limited  
Jay in Toronto : 4/18/2019 5:41 pm : link
In comment 14391966 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
film I've seen on Jones, he appears to be a very smart, dink-and-dunk QB with an average arm, decent mobility. Personally, I don't see top 10 talent there.


Eric, is this a Shurmur QB?
For a team that’s devoid of Defensive talent......  
Simms11 : 4/18/2019 7:49 pm : link
those rumors suck.
RE: What bothers me is doing it while Eli is here  
Danny80 : 4/18/2019 7:59 pm : link
In comment 14391947 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.


No. What's wrong with letting a rookie QB sit for a year? I know the salary cap year matters to some extent, but letting a rookie QB sit and learn for a year tends to pay off dividends, even in the modern salary cap era.

I was a big fan of Daniel Jones in college as a Duke grad, but always saw him as more of a second round type guy. Also, the one thing I never understood is, I know he got great coaching from Cutcliffe, but he almost never took a snap from under center. Duke doesn't run a real pro style offense. I'm sure he learned a lot about pro-style reads from Cutcliffe, but still I think he barely ever took a snap from under center.
If they take Jones at 6  
jeff57 : 4/18/2019 8:03 pm : link
RE: If they take Jones at 6  
jeff57 : 4/18/2019 8:03 pm : link
In comment 14392766 jeff57 said:
Quote:

Link - ( New Window )
RE: I wonder if the trade  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 4/18/2019 8:15 pm : link
In comment 14392223 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
will end up being Engram to the Patriots. Hopefully for one of their second or third round picks. It would not shock me.


Engram for one of their second or third round picks? Are you kidding? How about for ALL of their second and third round picks! I would not give up Engram for anything less than a 1st round pick or two second round picks.
RE: RE: jt has warned that  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 4/18/2019 8:15 pm : link
In comment 14392006 Giants38 said:
Quote:
In comment 14391993 Chris684 said:


Quote:


there is a great divide between the opinion of Jones on BBI and the opinion of Jones in NFL circles.

Not trying to put anyone down but which opinion is more meaningful if true?



Just because NFL teams like a player doesn’t mean they are right. As I said in my other post, I feel they love his coach, not him. I really can’t remember the last time I heard a coach mentioned more than the actual QB prospect when evaluating the actual prospect. It’s absurd.


Nearly as absurd as you believing that you know more than professional football scouts.
RE: RE: RE: jt has warned that  
PatersonPlank : 4/18/2019 8:19 pm : link
In comment 14392780 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14392006 Giants38 said:


Quote:


In comment 14391993 Chris684 said:


Quote:


there is a great divide between the opinion of Jones on BBI and the opinion of Jones in NFL circles.

Not trying to put anyone down but which opinion is more meaningful if true?



Just because NFL teams like a player doesn’t mean they are right. As I said in my other post, I feel they love his coach, not him. I really can’t remember the last time I heard a coach mentioned more than the actual QB prospect when evaluating the actual prospect. It’s absurd.



Nearly as absurd as you believing that you know more than professional football scouts.


Its crazy isn't it. Some here on BBI actually DO think they know more that professional NFL scouts and executives.
Josh Allen was 7th pick (QB3) in a great QB draft, contended for #1  
Eric on Li : 4/18/2019 8:36 pm : link
other than his pure arm strength, can anyone identify 1 thing they like better about him as a prospect than Jones? Asking honestly.

His statistics were all worse, his team wasn't better, against weaker competition, his supporting talent was hardly different than Jones', and in terms of size and athleticism Jones compares favorably.

I don't know who will end up the better player. I'm sure there are some gray areas, debatable differences, scouts who have preference for one or the other, etc. The point is there's a lot of bending over backwards to hate on Jones as a prospect by the same people who were QB or bust last year at #2 - Josh Allen included.
RE: Josh Allen was 7th pick (QB3) in a great QB draft, contended for #1  
Jay on the Island : 4/18/2019 9:44 pm : link
In comment 14392809 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
other than his pure arm strength, can anyone identify 1 thing they like better about him as a prospect than Jones? Asking honestly.

His statistics were all worse, his team wasn't better, against weaker competition, his supporting talent was hardly different than Jones', and in terms of size and athleticism Jones compares favorably.

I don't know who will end up the better player. I'm sure there are some gray areas, debatable differences, scouts who have preference for one or the other, etc. The point is there's a lot of bending over backwards to hate on Jones as a prospect by the same people who were QB or bust last year at #2 - Josh Allen included.

Josh Allen is one of the biggest boom or bust QB picks in recent memory. His arm talent, size, and athleticism are great but I don't think he will ever reach his immense upside. The accuracy concerns are just too big of a concern for me. I think Lock is a better comp for Allen. Allen has the better arm talent but Lock is more accurate.
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