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| The giants and bills have discussed a deal to move up to #9 for jones. I'm told it's more likely they just take Jones at six. reason being is the giants think both washington and Cincinatti want Jones as well. Giants may still trade up to 9 if they take Jones at six for either a defensive player or hockenson. They've fielded calls on Engram as they dont see him as a fit in a powerfootball esque offense. Remmers is a done deal as long as the giants are pleased with the results of his physical. Contract details all worked out as I already told you. |
If they are that in love with Jones, don't fuck around, take him at 6.
If the Giants love Jones then they should take him. End of story.
As for the Jones rumor, I just don't see it with the kid.
...but i got a free Engram jersey this offseason sooooo c'mon!
+1
I just have nightmares of Dave Brown.
Where does it say this came from onetimeasshat? It doesn’t
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...and that's what we're discussing. Oh Boy the Draft makes people desperate for any crumb lol.
Where does it say this came from onetimeasshat? It doesn’t
Context clues.
It had better not be that guy; he was a fraud.
^This. And I've seen a lot of Jones's games. I live near Baltimore. The ACC is on all the time in my area. Jones suffered from a bad OL and tons of drops by his receivers. He's also a tough kid to take all that pounding. But he's pretty much as you described. I would also add that his deep ball frequently floats because he puts too much arc on his downfield throws.
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Are you able to confirm if it's the same person as onetimeasshat?
It had better not be that guy; he was a fraud.
Very well could be based on his comments about Remmers.
Engram is now the only "big play" guy left on Offense. I highly doubt Giants would trade him. The "power football" idea is complete BS. This isn't the 1980s.
We have already heard the Jones rumors and the idea of trading up for a QB. The only reason the Giants would do that is if there is a MUST HAVE Defensive player at #6. Maybe if the Bama tackle falls, but who else? If draft goes like many project, he'll be long gone.
What Defensive Player is a MUST HAVE at #6?
If the Giants feel that confident on a QB, then they will take him at #6.
I hear ya...the only thing I would question is his confidence in his WRs. They were absolutely horrible and dropped countless passes thrown further down field so could that have colored his approach? I kinda look at Eli the same way with his lack of confidence in his Oline the last several years as he's clearly been affected by it and it absolutely has contributed to his play.
I won't make a big stink about it and whine all season because I didn't get my way. I just can't see the ceiling. He seems so limited.
Here's my question for the guys who really like Jones...
What is it about him that you're dreaming on?
For example, if you're big on Kyler Murray - I can get that. The guy has a skillset that has an immense ceiling. Will his size be a problem? It could. But the athletic ability, the arm, the ability to make all of the throws he makes... you can see how a best case outcome on Murray lands him in the top 10 NFL QB's somewhere in short order.
Even with Lock... you see the rifle arm. The guy makes great throws all over the field. Accuracy is concerning - especially short game. But you see what Patrick Mahomes did with his arm and ability and you can see a scenario where Drew Lock is a big time QB.
Haskins... the football IQ, the talent base, the outstanding short/midrange accuracy, being arguably the best pure passer in the draft. 50 TD's as a first year starter. 70%+. Plenty to like and project there.
Jones?
I just don't see it. I don't see a great arm. I don't see great mobility. I see limited and "best case" being an "average" NFL starter.
I don't want to draft a player 6th overall in a draft like this whose best case is average or "solid"
I could absolutely be wrong on Jones. I'll be the first one to tell you I didn't sit down and watch entire Duke games. But I've watched as much of him as I could and I'm just really struggling to see anything in his game that excites me or makes me feel like there's untapped potential.
I want a QB with the potential to be an upper echelon QB - a guy who can win you games. Not a "guy you can win with" - which is what I feel Jones is going to be touted as.
I don't think that's remotely accurate. I think DG has an idea of what this team should look like (Cowboys North) and Engram doesn't fit the profile because of his blocking inadequacy. If Hock falls in their lap, they've at least considered drafting him and moving Engram.
Not good value to spend it on a TE at 6 when this team needs an immediate infusion of defensive starters.
While I like that tight end, it would be really hard to imagine them spending that much capital on a tight end - a position where we already have a quality player, even if he's not exactly the style the coaches might prefer. And I'm sure some people in the room will object in principle to taking a tight end that high
Not trying to put anyone down but which opinion is more meaningful if true?
As far as EE is concerned, yes, he was yet another one of Reese's "measurables" guys, but as a receiving TE his speed is unmatched. He can really threaten the middle of the field, and run away from defenders. I'd be loathe to trade him, especially after his performance at the end of the year, and because he's still on his rookie contract.
Jones better be the second coming if you take him at 6. I get Bortles-ish vibes with this guy.
He’s not a top 10-15 guy, and I couldn’t care less what “NFL people” think of the guy. If you watched the Duke games last year, his ball placement - even on many passes he completed - was poor. There isn’t anything he does particularly well.
Picking a guy because of his coach - or his Eli/Peyton connection is sheer stupidity. People are ignoring this because the Giants May be picking Jones because Eli will have an easier time accepting it due to his relationship with Jones. I don’t believe Jones would be considered anywhere near the first if he had not been coached by Cutcliffe. That makes him a huge red flag. Pick the guy because of what you think he can do, not who coached him. I feel like teams love the coach more than the player and are picking him for that reason.
Good Jon, hope it’s defense at 6 and trade up is also defense.
Not trying to put anyone down but which opinion is more meaningful if true?
Just because NFL teams like a player doesn’t mean they are right. As I said in my other post, I feel they love his coach, not him. I really can’t remember the last time I heard a coach mentioned more than the actual QB prospect when evaluating the actual prospect. It’s absurd.
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there is a great divide between the opinion of Jones on BBI and the opinion of Jones in NFL circles.
Not trying to put anyone down but which opinion is more meaningful if true?
Just because NFL teams like a player doesn’t mean they are right. As I said in my other post, I feel they love his coach, not him. I really can’t remember the last time I heard a coach mentioned more than the actual QB prospect when evaluating the actual prospect. It’s absurd.
But what truth is there to any of this? It's just your opinion and could be miles away from the truth.
As far as EE is concerned, yes, he was yet another one of Reese's "measurables" guys, but as a receiving TE his speed is unmatched. He can really threaten the middle of the field, and run away from defenders. I'd be loathe to trade him, especially after his performance at the end of the year, and because he's still on his rookie contract.
Engram wasn't a "measurables" guy. He was insanely productive for four years at Ole Miss.
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film I've seen on Jones, he appears to be a very smart, dink-and-dunk QB with an average arm, decent mobility. Personally, I don't see top 10 talent there.
He’s not a top 10-15 guy, and I couldn’t care less what “NFL people” think of the guy. If you watched the Duke games last year, his ball placement - even on many passes he completed - was poor. There isn’t anything he does particularly well.
Picking a guy because of his coach - or his Eli/Peyton connection is sheer stupidity. People are ignoring this because the Giants May be picking Jones because Eli will have an easier time accepting it due to his relationship with Jones. I don’t believe Jones would be considered anywhere near the first if he had not been coached by Cutcliffe. That makes him a huge red flag. Pick the guy because of what you think he can do, not who coached him. I feel like teams love the coach more than the player and are picking him for that reason.
So you don't care what the people who are actual professionals in scouting, who have seen Jones in private workouts, who have interviewed him and his coaches, say? You would rather go by you watching a Duke game or two on CBS? I think this summarizes the youtube generation perfectly.
Spending two 1st rd picks on offense with the current state of the Giants defense would be foolish in my opinion.
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film I've seen on Jones, he appears to be a very smart, dink-and-dunk QB with an average arm, decent mobility. Personally, I don't see top 10 talent there.
^This. And I've seen a lot of Jones's games. I live near Baltimore. The ACC is on all the time in my area. Jones suffered from a bad OL and tons of drops by his receivers. He's also a tough kid to take all that pounding. But he's pretty much as you described. I would also add that his deep ball frequently floats because he puts too much arc on his downfield throws.
If you want an ACC QB that's smart, tough and mobile with an average arm, get Dungey from SU. 5th or 6th round pick. I can't see Jones as a 1st rounder, much less top 10.
Using 2 first round picks in the past 3 years on TEs would be an enormous waste of draft resources, IMO. Especially considering how good this draft is for defensive players and how horrible the Giants are on defense.
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In comment 14391966 Eric from BBI said:
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film I've seen on Jones, he appears to be a very smart, dink-and-dunk QB with an average arm, decent mobility. Personally, I don't see top 10 talent there.
He’s not a top 10-15 guy, and I couldn’t care less what “NFL people” think of the guy. If you watched the Duke games last year, his ball placement - even on many passes he completed - was poor. There isn’t anything he does particularly well.
Picking a guy because of his coach - or his Eli/Peyton connection is sheer stupidity. People are ignoring this because the Giants May be picking Jones because Eli will have an easier time accepting it due to his relationship with Jones. I don’t believe Jones would be considered anywhere near the first if he had not been coached by Cutcliffe. That makes him a huge red flag. Pick the guy because of what you think he can do, not who coached him. I feel like teams love the coach more than the player and are picking him for that reason.
So you don't care what the people who are actual professionals in scouting, who have seen Jones in private workouts, who have interviewed him and his coaches, say? You would rather go by you watching a Duke game or two on CBS? I think this summarizes the youtube generation perfectly.
I form my own opinions. I’ve watched NFL people be wrong enough times to not trust them blindly simply because they have titles. Reese was a GM and screwed the pooch. In Reese We Trust, right? How’d that work out. I watched 6 or 7 Duke games and was not impressed. That NFL people love his coach does nothing for me. I’ll root for him if the Giants take him. But it’s not the guy I want us to pick.
I don’t expect you to care about my opinion. Nor should you. But you’d do well to form your own and not listen to what scouts tell you to think.
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course teams are more interested in Jones, Lock, and Haskins than they should be. They convince themselves these are better than they originally thought because they're desperate for a QB. Teams overvalue QBs every year out of desperation. Remember Christian Ponder and E.J. Manuel?
As far as EE is concerned, yes, he was yet another one of Reese's "measurables" guys, but as a receiving TE his speed is unmatched. He can really threaten the middle of the field, and run away from defenders. I'd be loathe to trade him, especially after his performance at the end of the year, and because he's still on his rookie contract.
Engram wasn't a "measurables" guy. He was insanely productive for four years at Ole Miss.
Yes, he was extremely productive, but not as a blocker. He's basically a giant (no pun intended) WR.
Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Gettleman is too smart to make such an egregious error with the future of this team... I have to believe this thread is either a smokescreen attempting to get another team to move up to take him, allowing a top talent to fall to us, OR, it is just another "week before the draft" run of the mill trolling expedition...
Either way, I wish I could get these ten minutes of my life back...
Was he outed as a fraud?
Because his 1st post imfo seems to be panning out- isn’t all of this now widely accepted? And he was first one with the Remmers info because everyone up until that point believed JTs info that Remmers was a sign on day of visit or it would not happen. He also had the Rosen info which seems to be accepted by the Ralph V etc types.
Asshat Info
onetimeasshat : 4/1/2019 10:54 am
Take this for whatever it's worth.
1) Remmers has agreed to terms with the Giants. He cannot pass a physical. Once he can he's signing a 2 yr deal with the Giants. They anticipate he'll be healthy by early May.
2) The giants are interested in Rosen but will not part with one of their top 3 picks. I was told they would offer this years 3 and a future conditional 3. The biggest fear with the Giants is acquiring Rosen is an immediate QB controversy. It would start in OTA's both in the media and locker room. Conversely, a guy like Jones or lock the fans and media will understand needs time to sit.
3) The Giants are going defense with their first pick. Williams will be the pick if he falls (same with allen or bosa) If he's gone the Giants like, in order, White, Burns, Gary.
4) The Giants love Greedy Williams and will take him at 17 if he's on the board.
5) Some free agents they're in contract with. Shane Ray, Mohammad Wilkerson and Danny Shelton. Nothing will happen before the draft.
6) If the giants go offense in the first two rounds it will be a big body WR or a QB. With remmers in the fold the giants will wait til rounds 3 and 4 to bolster their depth.
Flame away
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In comment 14391994 AcidTest said:
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course teams are more interested in Jones, Lock, and Haskins than they should be. They convince themselves these are better than they originally thought because they're desperate for a QB. Teams overvalue QBs every year out of desperation. Remember Christian Ponder and E.J. Manuel?
As far as EE is concerned, yes, he was yet another one of Reese's "measurables" guys, but as a receiving TE his speed is unmatched. He can really threaten the middle of the field, and run away from defenders. I'd be loathe to trade him, especially after his performance at the end of the year, and because he's still on his rookie contract.
Engram wasn't a "measurables" guy. He was insanely productive for four years at Ole Miss.
Yes, he was extremely productive, but not as a blocker. He's basically a giant (no pun intended) WR.
That's another argument entirely. The fact remains that you called him one of JR's "measurables guys," a la Adrien Robinson, for example, which was absolutely not the case.
It doesn't matter if he is a top-10 talent, whatever that means. He is a QB and if the Giants decide he is a future franchise qb for them, then they must take him at 6. If they have the conviction in a qb he is ipso facto worth a top draft selection. That is the nfl today. You do not judge qbs on the same scale as DTs and LBs and RBs. They are their own category.
Remmer's deal is not done/signed, yet.
This is 100% true.
Alas, Jones is the wrong idea in so many ways. And it gives me even more concern that Gettleman does not know how to evaluate the QB position.
Trust me. You've seen all you need to see.
Jones is an interesting prospect. Would be a good fit for a warm weather team or an indoor team. His true value is round three, maybe late round two.
I struggle to think of a more overrated player in this draft right now...
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In comment 14392012 Klaatu said:
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In comment 14391994 AcidTest said:
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course teams are more interested in Jones, Lock, and Haskins than they should be. They convince themselves these are better than they originally thought because they're desperate for a QB. Teams overvalue QBs every year out of desperation. Remember Christian Ponder and E.J. Manuel?
As far as EE is concerned, yes, he was yet another one of Reese's "measurables" guys, but as a receiving TE his speed is unmatched. He can really threaten the middle of the field, and run away from defenders. I'd be loathe to trade him, especially after his performance at the end of the year, and because he's still on his rookie contract.
Engram wasn't a "measurables" guy. He was insanely productive for four years at Ole Miss.
Yes, he was extremely productive, but not as a blocker. He's basically a giant (no pun intended) WR.
That's another argument entirely. The fact remains that you called him one of JR's "measurables guys," a la Adrien Robinson, for example, which was absolutely not the case.
I respect your opinion, but don't agree. He's at best a marginal blocker, which was well known at the time. But I also said I oppose trading him despite that because he stretches the field. And I never compared him to Adrien Robinson.
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If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.
This is 100% true.
Alas, Jones is the wrong idea in so many ways. And it gives me even more concern that Gettleman does not know how to evaluate the QB position.
No.. a rookie heir apparent at qb should start when he is ready. In most cases that is not week 1. They usually need time to catch up to the speed of the game. Very few rookie qbs are ready week 1. But if we draft Jones andhe ready week 4, then yes he must start then.
He must feel confident that his back will be ok.
It would be very funny, that the 1st 2 picks go offense....
If that does happen, i sure hope DG find enough gems to secure the defense both at stopping the run and disrupting the pass....neither of which was very effective last year
He must feel confident that his back will be ok.
It would be very funny, that the 1st 2 picks go offense....
If that does happen, i sure hope DG find enough gems to secure the defense both at stopping the run and disrupting the pass....neither of which was very effective last year
Don't think Remmers did any visits before us. He sucks. Doubt anybody else wants him.
Trade #37 for Rosen.
# asshat
Ducking....
I'm hopeful they hang onto Engram; I know he isnt a complete TE but he really started to run away from people last year.
Hasn’t the Remmers info been accepted as true?
I have loved every move (minus Stewart) since Gettleman’s return, but this approach would be mind blowing - in the worst way
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He's the only person that has mentioned Remmers being a done deal. His last sentence gave him away. This thread should be deleted.
Hasn’t the Remmers info been accepted as true?
Not that I know of. Jt just said a deal isn't done. Onetimeasshat is the only one who gave us contract details.
2. Options discussed in the draft room change, evolve and get war gamed. Until the last few hours before the draft, the plan can and does change.
3. If you disagree with (1) and/or (2)... the irrefutable fact is that EVERYONE genuinely involved in making decisions during the draft lies.
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He's the only person that has mentioned Remmers being a done deal. His last sentence gave him away. This thread should be deleted.
Hasn’t the Remmers info been accepted as true?
Especially him saying "as I already told you" to me that's a very clear give away that's him. He's the only one whose mentioned numbers with Remmers.
You didn't have to mention Robinson by name. He's the quintessential JR "measurables" guy, a label you stuck on Engram, which was, again, incorrect due to his college production. You said nothing, initially, about Engram's blocking. Your suggestion was that JR drafted him simply because he was fast.
+1
Oh okay. Thank you.
No.. a rookie heir apparent at qb should start when he is ready. In most cases that is not week 1. They usually need time to catch up to the speed of the game. Very few rookie qbs are ready week 1. But if we draft Jones andhe ready week 4, then yes he must start then.
Still don't agree but I hear you - fair enough.
Investing a top ten pick in a QB should completely change the dynamic of a team's plan for the year (unless the QB in place is still relatively young and very established).
The goal should be finding the fastest way to get the QB into as many live games as possible, with a minimum of eight as the starter. Reps/experience are the foundation to determining if the pick can be successful or not. Otherwise, it's a wasted a contract year.
We are in an age where these QBs have been exposed to so many high level camps, coaching, and the latest advancements (techniques and training) that they are more ready than ever to hit the ground running. Like you said, and I agree, the biggest adjustment is the speed of the game.
I seriously doubt they would keep both of them though. EE could have some really good trade value, especially considering he would have 2 more years under contract, plus the option year. I don't think anyone (or the Giants) hate him. It's just having contingency plans in case Hock falls to them or in their vicinity at 17. He's a better fit for what DG views this offense being going forward.
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Right now he is our only playmaker in the passing game. I think adding Hockenson makes a ton of sense for us because it will improve our running game and open up Engram to do what he does best.
I seriously doubt they would keep both of them though. EE could have some really good trade value, especially considering he would have 2 more years under contract, plus the option year. I don't think anyone (or the Giants) hate him. It's just having contingency plans in case Hock falls to them or in their vicinity at 17. He's a better fit for what DG views this offense being going forward.
I think they genuinely want to get rid of as many Reese players as possible, but they did just sign Shepard, so that goes against it.
Engram fits perfectly with Hockenson in a Hernandez/Gronk scheme, if you want to feature 2 TE sets - which is what the Giants did down the stretch. Hockenson can be the in-line guy, while you can flex Engram out. You are mis-using Engram if you want him to play with his hand in the ground. But match him up in the passing game with a LB, and he’s deadly. He’ll also be fine blocking those guys. He can’t block DEs.
In comment 14392135 Beer Man said:
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and delete this thread? This Simo crap needs to be cut off at the knees.
You do know that one of the Mod's created this thread, right?
He can't block well but neither can David Njoku or Jordan Reed.
Goddam frustrating.
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and delete this thread? This Simo crap needs to be cut off at the knees.
You do know that one of the Mod's created this thread, right?
I think that is Mike's point.
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I respect your opinion, but don't agree. He's at best a marginal blocker, which was well known at the time. But I also said I oppose trading him despite that because he stretches the field. And I never compared him to Adrien Robinson.
You didn't have to mention Robinson by name. He's the quintessential JR "measurables" guy, a label you stuck on Engram, which was, again, incorrect due to his college production. You said nothing, initially, about Engram's blocking. Your suggestion was that JR drafted him simply because he was fast.
If I'd wanted to compare Engram to Robinson I would have. I didn't. Regardless of his production in college, I still considered Engram a "measurables" player because he couldn't block. I think it's possible to be productive in college and still be a "measurables" player. You apparently do not, which is fine. As I said, I respect your opinion. But the discussion has become too testy for me, so I will leave the last word to you.
Defensive heavy draft DOES NOT mean taking a player on defense is always the better choice. If there pick comes and they have an OT, TE, QB, etc rated higher than all remaining defenders AND it's still a position of need, draft the higher rated player on your board.
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In comment 14392098 Zeke's Alibi said:
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Right now he is our only playmaker in the passing game. I think adding Hockenson makes a ton of sense for us because it will improve our running game and open up Engram to do what he does best.
I seriously doubt they would keep both of them though. EE could have some really good trade value, especially considering he would have 2 more years under contract, plus the option year. I don't think anyone (or the Giants) hate him. It's just having contingency plans in case Hock falls to them or in their vicinity at 17. He's a better fit for what DG views this offense being going forward.
I think they genuinely want to get rid of as many Reese players as possible, but they did just sign Shepard, so that goes against it.
Engram fits perfectly with Hockenson in a Hernandez/Gronk scheme, if you want to feature 2 TE sets - which is what the Giants did down the stretch. Hockenson can be the in-line guy, while you can flex Engram out. You are mis-using Engram if you want him to play with his hand in the ground. But match him up in the passing game with a LB, and he’s deadly. He’ll also be fine blocking those guys. He can’t block DEs.
Holy crap, we agree on something.
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In comment 14392058 AcidTest said:
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I respect your opinion, but don't agree. He's at best a marginal blocker, which was well known at the time. But I also said I oppose trading him despite that because he stretches the field. And I never compared him to Adrien Robinson.
You didn't have to mention Robinson by name. He's the quintessential JR "measurables" guy, a label you stuck on Engram, which was, again, incorrect due to his college production. You said nothing, initially, about Engram's blocking. Your suggestion was that JR drafted him simply because he was fast.
If I'd wanted to compare Engram to Robinson I would have. I didn't. Regardless of his production in college, I still considered Engram a "measurables" player because he couldn't block. I think it's possible to be productive in college and still be a "measurables" player. You apparently do not, which is fine. As I said, I respect your opinion. But the discussion has become too testy for me, so I will leave the last word to you.
Just admit that you fucked up and move on. I'll still love you.
The other way to look at it, if he really doesn't fit what Shurmur and Gettleman will run, is that late flash was enough to re-establish his trade value and this is the high point to trade him. Personally, I like him and would like him to be here. The Giants are going to be looking at very few big plays beyond whatever highlight reel plays Saquon will break off. Engram is one of the few threats the Giants now have down the field.
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late last year. I wish they would keep him and think it would be a mistake to trade him. Not to mention, it creates another unnecessary hole that will have to be filled.
The other way to look at it, if he really doesn't fit what Shurmur and Gettleman will run, is that late flash was enough to re-establish his trade value and this is the high point to trade him. Personally, I like him and would like him to be here. The Giants are going to be looking at very few big plays beyond whatever highlight reel plays Saquon will break off. Engram is one of the few threats the Giants now have down the field.
Has to be same person as onetimeasshat, no?
C’mon Gidie, don’t just throw a hand grenade into the room and leave.
C’mon Gidie, don’t just throw a hand grenade into the room and leave.
Agreed.
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No.. a rookie heir apparent at qb should start when he is ready. In most cases that is not week 1. They usually need time to catch up to the speed of the game. Very few rookie qbs are ready week 1. But if we draft Jones andhe ready week 4, then yes he must start then.
Still don't agree but I hear you - fair enough.
Investing a top ten pick in a QB should completely change the dynamic of a team's plan for the year (unless the QB in place is still relatively young and very established).
The goal should be finding the fastest way to get the QB into as many live games as possible, with a minimum of eight as the starter. Reps/experience are the foundation to determining if the pick can be successful or not. Otherwise, it's a wasted a contract year.
We are in an age where these QBs have been exposed to so many high level camps, coaching, and the latest advancements (techniques and training) that they are more ready than ever to hit the ground running. Like you said, and I agree, the biggest adjustment is the speed of the game.
you don't want your guy to get hurt because he can't process the game. that is really all you wait for. i agree that it might now be a smaller window than ever before but most qbs need 2 to 6 games to catch up to the game.
Good times~
BPA as this thing unfolds, keeping all picks!
I like Boylhart as much or more than the next guy - been following him for 15+ years. He is HORRIBLE at QBs. He's fantastic at OL. Not to say that he's never right about QBs but every year he loves QBs that turn our horrible. It is his weakest position to evaluate by far. And for the record, I like Jones.
This.
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If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.
This is 100% true.
Alas, Jones is the wrong idea in so many ways. And it gives me even more concern that Gettleman does not know how to evaluate the QB position.
Wow everyone! We've got an expert talent evaluator here on QB talent. Right here on BBI. More knowledgeable than Pat Shurmur himself. Maybe you should take over for Sy on the draft preview posts...at least the QB breakdowns.
Agreed.
Same lol
Agreed. What would be the actual benefit of letting him sit a full year?
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film I've seen on Jones, he appears to be a very smart, dink-and-dunk QB with an average arm, decent mobility. Personally, I don't see top 10 talent there.
This.
Agreed. I see his ceiling as an Alex Smith.
When I watch his highlights I see a good prospect.
April 23, 2005: Ted Thompson makes the call on Aaron Rodgers
What NFL scouts told the Journal Sentinel's Bob McGinn before the draft about quarterback Aaron Rodgers:
Marc Ross, Buffalo: "He's a little short. The thing you worry about is those (Jeff) Tedford guys. They don't do anything for a couple years and then they have a good year or two. Who of his quarterbacks has done what they're supposed to do? None of them. Is he just working magic with great college quarterbacks or just manufacturing guys?"
AFC scout: "I like him. He's a very talented guy. A lot of quarterbacks that were system people have not done very well. That puts up a red flag. Not that he is one of them. He could be an exception. But I can't get it out of my craw."
Rich Snead, Tennessee: "I like him. I just don't know if he's maxed out. He's more accurate than (Kyle) Boller but probably not as athletic. He's a better player than Akili Smith. He's more athletic than (Trent) Dilfer was. He's a little more mobile than Joey Harrington. He had to go to a JC because no one would recruit him because they said he was too small. He's been busting his (expletive) his whole life to get to this point. I just don't know how much more he has to give."
NFC scout: "(Alex) Smith is the better athlete."
AFC scout: "I think he has some upside although there are some things that are just ordinary about him."
Jerry Angelo, Chicago: "I'd give Rodgers the edge (over Smith) just because he was easier to evaluate. And there's a little more arm. But the edge is negligible."
NFC scout: "I think he has a good chance of being a bust. Just like every other Tedford-coached quarterback. Thing I struggle with him is he gets sacked a lot. He doesn't have great ability to change the release of the football. He's mechanically very rigid. Brett Favre can change his release point and find different windows. There will be more growing pains with Alex Smith but in the end he has a much better chance to be much better."
NFC scout: "The guys that Tedford has had, what have they developed into? They're too well-schooled. So mechanical. So robotic. I don't know if they become good pro players. I think Rodgers is in that same mold."
AFC scout: "I don't like him. He's a clone of Harrington and Boller. They all throw the same way. What have those guys done? Nothing. If you take him in the second round, fine. Heady guy. They do a marvelous job of coaching quarterbacks there. I don't think he's as good as the top quarterbacks coming out last year."
AFC scout: "I don't think he's in the class of the quarterbacks that came out last year. Strong arm. Pretty good athlete. Still has some holes in his game."
Bill Polian, Indianapolis: "I see a guy who has good arm strength. I see some athletic ability. I see a guy who was pretty good with a good team. I see a guy who's in a pretty efficient offense. Am I certain that he's going to come in and lead my team to the Promised Land? I can't say that. I'm not even sure I can say that about Alex Smith."
AFC scout: "He's a system quarterback. 3-, 5-, 7-step guy. Can't create on his own. Panics under pressure. Gets flustered easy. I don't think there's a quarterback in the draft worthy of a first-round pick. I'm dead serious. None of them are worth it."
NFC scout: "He fit right into the Cal system. He probably executed that as well as anybody. He doesn't have as strong an arm as Boller but can make the same reads and play the scheme as well as Boller did.
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It's just a matter of how comfortable you feel with associated flaw.
I'm sure if the Giants draft Jones at #6 the media will say it was a reach/poor pick, but if the Pats make a trade up into the top 10 to take him the media will say that Little Bill is a genius.
It's just a matter of how comfortable you feel with associated flaw.
I agree with all of that, actually.
I wouldn't say, however, I'm looking for a unicorn. I'm analyzing the skills/situations/comps, and then trying to assess the proper value.
I'll say this - next year's class is very fascinating to me. And it's less about Tua and Fromm and more about Herbert and Eason. I think each of them are more talented than Tua and Fromm and have considerably more upside. I'll be watching each carefully this year, especially Eason, who I think could be the prize of 2020.
When I watch his highlights I see a good prospect.
I agree, if you told me Jones is Alex Smith, that's actually not too bad. It's the Ryan Tannehill or Christian Ponder stuff that makes we worried.
3 WR set of Brown or Butler, Tate and Shep? Spread out and run the ball with Barkley with an improved OL and play action off that? Wow.
The rest not so much, Fromm's OC is James Coley who was and is a great recruiter/salesman but a shitty OC/Playcaller/developer of talent.
One more thought on Jones, since I know that's what you're waiting for, he is just 21 and comes from a fairly athletic family. There is a very good chance, with an NFL nutritional plan and development staff, he'll continue to develop physically including his arm strength. Duke's support staff was more BB oriented IMO.
If we're truly building this team around Barkley, someone with Jones's traits makes sense.
Me also
Hi Beez.
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is looking for unicorns at the QB position b/c this class and next year's class all are flawed to one degree or another. Does Locke have his head on straight? Is Haskin's production a product of the talent around him? Does Jones have the Arm strength to be an effective NFL QB? Will Fromm or Herbert overcome their decidedly mediocre at best offensive coaching and develop? Is Tua the product of Bama's talent, can he carry a team by himself?
It's just a matter of how comfortable you feel with associated flaw.
I agree with all of that, actually.
I wouldn't say, however, I'm looking for a unicorn. I'm analyzing the skills/situations/comps, and then trying to assess the proper value.
I'll say this - next year's class is very fascinating to me. And it's less about Tua and Fromm and more about Herbert and Eason. I think each of them are more talented than Tua and Fromm and have considerably more upside. I'll be watching each carefully this year, especially Eason, who I think could be the prize of 2020.
Jesus Christ. Bw and I agree on something on QBs since I’ve been promoting Eason this offseason.
Time to re-evaluate my stance on life.
Actually drafting Jones assures us that Eli will be extended to continue as starter through the course of Jones first 4-5 year contract, because Jones will never eclipse Eli on the depth chart.
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If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.
Actually drafting Jones assures us that Eli will be extended to continue as starter through the course of Jones first 4-5 year contract, because Jones will never eclipse Eli on the depth chart.
I don't know. I think this offense has been a terrible fit for Eli since Gilbride left. The things he does well have largely been taken away by the lack of talent around him and his own coaching. It's been a classic case of a square peg in a round hole.
In comment 14392195 Brown_Hornet said:
Good times~
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In comment 14391947 Go Terps said:
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If we're taking a QB at #6 he should be starting from the outset.
Actually drafting Jones assures us that Eli will be extended to continue as starter through the course of Jones first 4-5 year contract, because Jones will never eclipse Eli on the depth chart.
I don't know. I think this offense has been a terrible fit for Eli since Gilbride left. The things he does well have largely been taken away by the lack of talent around him and his own coaching. It's been a classic case of a square peg in a round hole.
It was fine in '14 and '15. Those were two pretty good years.
It went off the rails under McAdoo in '16 and '17 when you saw him have full control of the offense and it was not the right fit.
I think Shurmur figures a way to utilize Eli this year much more effectively, and a better OL is going to help big time.
Has to be same person as onetimeasshat, no?
Has to be the return of "SLADE"
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In comment 14391966 Eric from BBI said:
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film I've seen on Jones, he appears to be a very smart, dink-and-dunk QB with an average arm, decent mobility. Personally, I don't see top 10 talent there.
He’s not a top 10-15 guy, and I couldn’t care less what “NFL people” think of the guy. If you watched the Duke games last year, his ball placement - even on many passes he completed - was poor. There isn’t anything he does particularly well.
Picking a guy because of his coach - or his Eli/Peyton connection is sheer stupidity. People are ignoring this because the Giants May be picking Jones because Eli will have an easier time accepting it due to his relationship with Jones. I don’t believe Jones would be considered anywhere near the first if he had not been coached by Cutcliffe. That makes him a huge red flag. Pick the guy because of what you think he can do, not who coached him. I feel like teams love the coach more than the player and are picking him for that reason.
So you don't care what the people who are actual professionals in scouting, who have seen Jones in private workouts, who have interviewed him and his coaches, say? You would rather go by you watching a Duke game or two on CBS? I think this summarizes the youtube generation perfectly.
Yeah, I'm not going to accept the prevailing opinion of medical professionals,I'm going with what my second cousin who went to one year of pharmacy school told me.
Or maybe Saquon covers up faults and acts as a grout between the stones.
One of the advantages of Shurmur's experience is he knows one size does not fit all.
I'm sure if the Giants draft Jones at #6 the media will say it was a reach/poor pick, but if the Pats make a trade up into the top 10 to take him the media will say that Little Bill is a genius.
Yes.
Eric, is this a Shurmur QB?
No. What's wrong with letting a rookie QB sit for a year? I know the salary cap year matters to some extent, but letting a rookie QB sit and learn for a year tends to pay off dividends, even in the modern salary cap era.
I was a big fan of Daniel Jones in college as a Duke grad, but always saw him as more of a second round type guy. Also, the one thing I never understood is, I know he got great coaching from Cutcliffe, but he almost never took a snap from under center. Duke doesn't run a real pro style offense. I'm sure he learned a lot about pro-style reads from Cutcliffe, but still I think he barely ever took a snap from under center.
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Engram for one of their second or third round picks? Are you kidding? How about for ALL of their second and third round picks! I would not give up Engram for anything less than a 1st round pick or two second round picks.
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there is a great divide between the opinion of Jones on BBI and the opinion of Jones in NFL circles.
Not trying to put anyone down but which opinion is more meaningful if true?
Just because NFL teams like a player doesn’t mean they are right. As I said in my other post, I feel they love his coach, not him. I really can’t remember the last time I heard a coach mentioned more than the actual QB prospect when evaluating the actual prospect. It’s absurd.
Nearly as absurd as you believing that you know more than professional football scouts.
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In comment 14391993 Chris684 said:
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there is a great divide between the opinion of Jones on BBI and the opinion of Jones in NFL circles.
Not trying to put anyone down but which opinion is more meaningful if true?
Just because NFL teams like a player doesn’t mean they are right. As I said in my other post, I feel they love his coach, not him. I really can’t remember the last time I heard a coach mentioned more than the actual QB prospect when evaluating the actual prospect. It’s absurd.
Nearly as absurd as you believing that you know more than professional football scouts.
Its crazy isn't it. Some here on BBI actually DO think they know more that professional NFL scouts and executives.
His statistics were all worse, his team wasn't better, against weaker competition, his supporting talent was hardly different than Jones', and in terms of size and athleticism Jones compares favorably.
I don't know who will end up the better player. I'm sure there are some gray areas, debatable differences, scouts who have preference for one or the other, etc. The point is there's a lot of bending over backwards to hate on Jones as a prospect by the same people who were QB or bust last year at #2 - Josh Allen included.
His statistics were all worse, his team wasn't better, against weaker competition, his supporting talent was hardly different than Jones', and in terms of size and athleticism Jones compares favorably.
I don't know who will end up the better player. I'm sure there are some gray areas, debatable differences, scouts who have preference for one or the other, etc. The point is there's a lot of bending over backwards to hate on Jones as a prospect by the same people who were QB or bust last year at #2 - Josh Allen included.
Josh Allen is one of the biggest boom or bust QB picks in recent memory. His arm talent, size, and athleticism are great but I don't think he will ever reach his immense upside. The accuracy concerns are just too big of a concern for me. I think Lock is a better comp for Allen. Allen has the better arm talent but Lock is more accurate.