I mean I like Murray and then Haskins, but honestly I want Ed Oliver if the big three don't fall. Daniel Jones isn't my favorite QB, but I love his short pass accuracy. He puts balls in perfect spots. To me I won't be disappointed with almost anyone we draft unless we reach for someone way out there like Grier.
It is funny yesterday I was under the impression and would have bet anything that pick 6 was a lock at Def... However I think the Giants won't mess around and IF they want a QB it will be at 6.
I’m a Haskins guy myself but aside from that I go into every draft prepared for disappointment. Other than Barkley last year I haven’t been right since we drafted john mendenhall back before color television lol
I believe you have mentioned in past that if a certain player the giants covet
at pick 17 isn’t there, they’d consider trading down with Pats...Is Jones that player?
I believe you have mentioned in past that if a certain player the giants covet
at pick 17 isn’t there, they’d consider trading down with Pats...Is Jones that player?
DG just said he would be shocked if there wasn't a player they loved at 17.... To me that means he probably has 15 players he loves and of course at least 2 players would be taken outside of his top 15.
Without blowing out his shoulder. Totally dislike jones
Threw the ball over 60 yards in the air at the combine hitting the receiver (a draft prospect, not one of his shitty Duke guys) in stride. He has plenty of arm.
Sure they have done their homework. Still think DG wants a defensive stud at #6. Perfect spot for a ten year starter with all pro possibilities. Just what we need its been a long time . Last year we got Barkley. This year we do it again on defense. Hoping.
RE: And look...if this pic doesn't scream Giants QB, nothing does! Â
If they take Jones with a first round pick instead of trading less for Rosen I will lose all confidence in their ability to evaluate the position. Evaluating Eli on small sample sizes, Philly game in 2017 and the last 4 games of 2018. Drafting Lauletta. Then drafting Lauletta again(Jones) but instead using high draft capital. Just NO!
I'm not wild about Jones, but the arm strength stuff is so overblown. Is he going to be a Mahomes/Josh Allen/young Flacco-type? Of course not, but if his decision-making skills are there, he's got plenty of arm strength to be successful. That said, I'd take him at 37, not 6.
I love how every time there is a post on Haskins you throw cold water on it...immediately.
I’m with Amtoft. I’m preparing to be disappointed, but I’m still with Amtoft. And no amount of cold water can stop me from at least holding out a scintilla of hope, even if it will be dashed in a week.
For the next week, I still can hope for Haskins. And no one can take that away from me.
This draft is going to be so interesting. Unless there is a great shift in thinking, 6 is almost stone cold lock to be defense but 17 could go either way. I still think the value on the QBs is close enough that they try for Grier .
if Jones or Lock fall to 17 then who knows...but to trade up the price will be high....but we do have tremendous draft capital at our disposal. However that kind of investment at least to me signals this is Elis last year and lots of media attention on the shiny new toy. Dont know if they want to commit to that yet...dont know.
with no scholarship, was a walk on at Duke. Made the team, then became the starter and now could be a top ten pick. Not with a lot of Duke team support .Impressive accomplishments, He could be special. Similar to ELI with that shitty Miss team. Smart. tough and a hard working team guy. Sound familiar Hope so if we end up with him. MO.
My biggest fear with this guy is that they're trying to get "Eli v.2.0" - and that he's not going to be anything close.
I think this Eli 2.0 stuff is all media-driven bull. And I don't think Eli is even the type of QB Shurmur would want, given choices.
But how much input does Shurmur really have?
That's the question. Gettleman and Mara probably have more stake in this than he does. And those two guys absolutely would want another Eli if they had the option, I'd think...
Even Boylhart is going with the same narrative...
Quote:
Daniel reminds me a lot of the Giants Eli Manning. He has the same ability in the pocket to extend plays and the same quiet leadership on the field. He also seems to have that inner strength that allows him to deal with his mistakes and his teammates mistakes without getting too high or too low during the game.
Part of me feels like they do think Jones is another Eli in a lot of ways... but I had far more confidence in Eli Manning as a prospect than I do Dan Jones.
Tom Brady. So is Drew Brees. These guys can't throw it deep anymore the way they used to. And they don't really have to. Arm strength is the single most overrated aspect of a QB's ability. Rarely is it a significant plus, and rarely is it a significant minus.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Watched the Clemson game, he's got the entire package.
He makes good decisions, he get's the ball out, he can move, he is accurate inside, outside, deep and short. He throws a nice fade and a nice seam.
I like the air under his deep ball.
The critique of his lack of arm strength is inaccurate.
I'd prefer defense at 6 but if Jones is their guy, I'm on board.
My biggest fear with this guy is that they're trying to get "Eli v.2.0" - and that he's not going to be anything close.
I think this Eli 2.0 stuff is all media-driven bull. And I don't think Eli is even the type of QB Shurmur would want, given choices.
But how much input does Shurmur really have?
That's the question. Gettleman and Mara probably have more stake in this than he does. And those two guys absolutely would want another Eli if they had the option, I'd think...
Even Boylhart is going with the same narrative...
Quote:
Daniel reminds me a lot of the Giants Eli Manning. He has the same ability in the pocket to extend plays and the same quiet leadership on the field. He also seems to have that inner strength that allows him to deal with his mistakes and his teammates mistakes without getting too high or too low during the game.
Part of me feels like they do think Jones is another Eli in a lot of ways... but I had far more confidence in Eli Manning as a prospect than I do Dan Jones.
Those traits aren't bad though. I don't think its a stretch to assume they value those traits because they've experienced first hand how beneficial they can be. That makes sense. But I also don't believe that they're going to choose him over another QB who is better just because of them.
I absolutely believe Shurmur has a lot of input. In fact, I think he has more than anyone. If they draft a QB in the 1st round, it'll be Shurmurs guy. I don't know that for sure obviously, but its just my opinion...which is why I'm not worried about it. If they pick Jones, I think Shurmur knows he can make him successful.
a nice 55 yard or so bomb with good loft and placement. That is probably his limit, but let me ask you. How many throws last year by NFL QBs do you think were throw per game longer than 55 yards in the air?
That's 55 yards with clean pocket stepping up big time. Why you gotta lie or you just bad at math
Sorry I miscounted because it was gif and I was trying to post quickly. Why do I have to be lying and you have to type in a sentence structure that makes you sound like a teenager on Facebook?
and it's fun. But there is an awful lot of Eli in Daniel Jones, and possibly a more athletic Eli. And while I love Eli, I can't be blind to the totality of his NFL career.
And I prefer Lock to Jones, despite Jones' impeccable mechanics, as with Lock I see more passion and a hair trigger release. When I watch Jones, I'm reminded of Eli. When I watch Lock, I see the young Bradshaw.
a nice 55 yard or so bomb with good loft and placement. That is probably his limit, but let me ask you. How many throws last year by NFL QBs do you think were throw per game longer than 55 yards in the air?
Exactly. That doesnt really happen any more. Unless you have a guy who can win a 50/50 ball while covered like Randy Moss, most teams dont have that in their arsenal.
and it's fun. But there is an awful lot of Eli in Daniel Jones, and possibly a more athletic Eli. And while I love Eli, I can't be blind to the totality of his NFL career.
And I prefer Lock to Jones, despite Jones' impeccable mechanics, as with Lock I see more passion and a hair trigger release. When I watch Jones, I'm reminded of Eli. When I watch Lock, I see the young Bradshaw.
I don't get the Eli comments other than they look a little alike but Eli has a much bigger arm and Jones is much faster and agile. He had a 7.00 3 cone for goodness sake. Maybe because they both have nice movement in the pocket.
RE: You know who's noodle armed in the NFL right now? Â
Tom Brady. So is Drew Brees. These guys can't throw it deep anymore the way they used to. And they don't really have to. Arm strength is the single most overrated aspect of a QB's ability. Rarely is it a significant plus, and rarely is it a significant minus.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Excellent point. Give me a guy who can throw the ball 15-35 yards accurately, get first downs with his feet when necessary, take a hit and get up looking at the sideline for the next play and is not afraid of competing against the best and that is the surest thing at quarterback you can ask for.
Ill take the sure to be good to very good QB over the guy who might be Jay Cutler, Matthew Stafford or could potentiall be Brett Favre.
RE: RE: I realize that much of this is tongue-in-cheek, Â
and it's fun. But there is an awful lot of Eli in Daniel Jones, and possibly a more athletic Eli. And while I love Eli, I can't be blind to the totality of his NFL career.
And I prefer Lock to Jones, despite Jones' impeccable mechanics, as with Lock I see more passion and a hair trigger release. When I watch Jones, I'm reminded of Eli. When I watch Lock, I see the young Bradshaw.
I don't get the Eli comments other than they look a little alike but Eli has a much bigger arm and Jones is much faster and agile. He had a 7.00 3 cone for goodness sake. Maybe because they both have nice movement in the pocket.
I agree he's faster and more agile, that's why I described him as more athletic, though I don't know that his arm is much worse than Eli's, certainly not the 2018 version of Eli.
But it's his mechanics and how he looks in the that reminds me most of Eli.
Tom Brady. So is Drew Brees. These guys can't throw it deep anymore the way they used to. And they don't really have to. Arm strength is the single most overrated aspect of a QB's ability. Rarely is it a significant plus, and rarely is it a significant minus.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Yeh but most guys get to that point in the league because they have been there for 15 years. They can get away with not having good arm strength because of the way they see the game and unbelievable accuracy. In the beginning accuracy isn't enough because it takes a long time to get the type of mental processing they posess.
I have a big pause on guys like Daniel Jones because Â
there is a big projection there. Either they are going to be pick 6 guys all over the place or they learn to adapt in the NFL ala Rivers and Foles. I actually think Jones will end up being a similar player to Foles.
RE: RE: You know who's noodle armed in the NFL right now? Â
Tom Brady. So is Drew Brees. These guys can't throw it deep anymore the way they used to. And they don't really have to. Arm strength is the single most overrated aspect of a QB's ability. Rarely is it a significant plus, and rarely is it a significant minus.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Yeh but most guys get to that point in the league because they have been there for 15 years. They can get away with not having good arm strength because of the way they see the game and unbelievable accuracy. In the beginning accuracy isn't enough because it takes a long time to get the type of mental processing they posess.
Accuracy is always important. His arm isn't a noodle in fact when people talk about who he looks like I would say DeShaun Watson who many said he didn't have the arm strength at QB.
it's been reported that the Giants spent one of their private interviews on Jarrett Stidham, so it's possible he could be a contingency pick later in the draft as well.
Watson has elite escapability and play extension ability.
Jones does not.
You sure about that... athletically they are very similar
Quite sure.
Watson made several highlight reel plays by dodging multiple defenders and buying himself time to throw a bomb down the field to an open Will Fuller or DeAndre Hopkins.
Jones isn't going to make plays like this in the NFL...
Jones looks like a better pure thrower than Watson Â
I absolutely believe Shurmur has a lot of input. In fact, I think he has more than anyone. If they draft a QB in the 1st round, it'll be Shurmurs guy. I don't know that for sure obviously, but its just my opinion...which is why I'm not worried about it. If they pick Jones, I think Shurmur knows he can make him successful.
I sure hope not. Shurmur hasn't been successful enough to deserve a draft strategy tailored around satisfying his preferences.
Watson has elite escapability and play extension ability.
Jones does not.
You sure about that... athletically they are very similar
Quite sure.
Watson made several highlight reel plays by dodging multiple defenders and buying himself time to throw a bomb down the field to an open Will Fuller or DeAndre Hopkins.
Jones isn't going to make plays like this in the NFL...
Conversely, I think Jones is a lot quicker thinker with the ball and a much more durable QB than Watson.
Fwiw, I dont think the athletic comparison to Watson is correct. Someone compared him athletically to Tannenhill. THAT I agree with.
Btw arc, I was more than a touch drunk last night when I broke your balls on the Yanks thread. I didnt mean to call you out, just saw other bust you about becoming a Yanks fan and prob used bad judgement. No hard feelings?
RE: RE: RE: Isn't one noodle-armed QB on the roster enough? Â
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
Jones probably is a better pure thrower than Watson - just pointing out that a lot of what makes Watson special are plays like I posted above. He has an incredible knack for buying time with his legs and dodging pass rushers - they've busted off so many big pass plays that way because DB's just can't stay stuck on the route runners for as long as he's got defenders chasing him around behind the LOS.
That aspect of Watson's game is what makes him so dangerous. Teams go into games against Houston game planning to contain him and keep him from getting outside the pocket and doing the types of stuff he's doing above.
Jones doesn't have that. He's not painfully unathletic or anything, you can run some read option stuff with him and itll probably work fine... and if he's back there on a dropback with safeties deep and guys dropping into coverage and sees a running lane, I'm sure he can pick up some yards.
I just don't like the idea of spending a 1st round pick on a QB who we're talking about like a game manager already.
We should be taking a guy who can actually win us some football games by virtue of his ability. Not a guy who is just going to be a passenger and need everything around him to be right... which is what we're dealing with now.
True, Eli's contract vs. a rookie QB contract will certainly impact our ability to surround the QB with more talent... but so many opinions of Jones just seem to be more of the "he can get it done" variety than "he can be one of the better QB's in the game" or be something special.
I absolutely believe Shurmur has a lot of input. In fact, I think he has more than anyone. If they draft a QB in the 1st round, it'll be Shurmurs guy. I don't know that for sure obviously, but its just my opinion...which is why I'm not worried about it. If they pick Jones, I think Shurmur knows he can make him successful.
I sure hope not. Shurmur hasn't been successful enough to deserve a draft strategy tailored around satisfying his preferences.
He's been successful enough at teaching quarterbacks how to quarterback and thats my point.
Not saying I couldn't buy into or root for Haskins, Jones or even Grier. I just think Lock has the most to work with and considering Eli will be the starter for the next season, the next QB will have some time to develop and get some pro coaching. Lock has the best arm, is athletic, has prototypical size and lots of experience.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Isn't one noodle-armed QB on the roster enough? Â
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
No, even at the Combine that same reliance in taking that extra steps forward on his long throws was noted by the analysts there as a problem once he would be playing in the NFL with its small pocket.
Watson has elite escapability and play extension ability.
Jones does not.
You sure about that... athletically they are very similar
Quite sure.
Watson made several highlight reel plays by dodging multiple defenders and buying himself time to throw a bomb down the field to an open Will Fuller or DeAndre Hopkins.
Jones isn't going to make plays like this in the NFL...
Ah I see it... You are right that isn't Daniel Jones.
agree with arc and Boylehart and TC, even before I saw their posts, reference (Boylehart): the Eli comp struck me hard: the back shoulder on the roll on the near sideline; the slight wait before #3 broke free from the corral of three defenders Jones hitting him in stride along the far sideline.
Arm strength a bit hard to tell on these clips, but let's withhold the benefit of the doubt and say Eli has--had--the stronger arm, it's not a big gap. But the way they look in the pocket is similar. Jones obviously with a lot more speed, coordination, and athleticism on the move (Ira: WTF were you seeing?? LOL). It's not like knock your socks off, but I can see the conservative Maras and the Eli v. 2 narrative, I can see it. Not sure I like it, but I see it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Isn't one noodle-armed QB on the roster enough? Â
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
He crow hopped two or three times into that throw.
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
He crow hopped two or three times into that throw.
A) you obviously dont know what a crow hop is
B) thats called gathering....and like I said he was timing his release with his receovers route (which happens when the route has more moving parts like a sluggo or a double move).
If they take Jones with a first round pick instead of trading less for Rosen I will lose all confidence in their ability to evaluate the position. Evaluating Eli on small sample sizes, Philly game in 2017 and the last 4 games of 2018. Drafting Lauletta. Then drafting Lauletta again(Jones) but instead using high draft capital. Just NO!
Bruh he’s not Lauletta I. The least bit. The closest to Lauletta in this draft is Will trashcan Grier
RE: Isn't one noodle-armed QB on the roster enough? Â
he could behind it. It's fine if you like him, but you don't need to make up false narratives. There are things to like about the guy, but to post a video of him mustering up all his power to get the ball down the field 55 yards isn't a plus.
No wasn't timing anything there isn't any double move that breaks Â
30 yards down the field. He simply was trying to get everything behind it. Which is fine, but let's not act like his arm strength is anything to write home about. I actually don't think its that big of a deal in today's NFL. I'm more concerned about him floating passes to the sideline.
RE: No wasn't timing anything there isn't any double move that breaks Â
30 yards down the field. He simply was trying to get everything behind it. Which is fine, but let's not act like his arm strength is anything to write home about. I actually don't think its that big of a deal in today's NFL. I'm more concerned about him floating passes to the sideline.
If you are trying to say Daniel Jones doesn't have proper foot work you are crazy. He is probably the most technically sound of all the QBs. His foot work is great.
As for that pass I find it shocking you are complaining about a perfectly dropped pass with beautiful loft land right in the basket at full stride.
His footwork is picture perfect there. Although, after Patrick Mahomes I'm not sure how important proper footwork is in today's NFL. I'm a believer it is more important to be able to throw from different platforms now. My views on what constitutes in NFL QB has changed drastically in the last ten years due to the change in the game. Would have thought Kyler Murray would have been the biggest bust fifteen years ago. He can definitely play in the NFL today, although I do worry about what he has between the ears.
RE: No wasn't timing anything there isn't any double move that breaks Â
30 yards down the field. He simply was trying to get everything behind it. Which is fine, but let's not act like his arm strength is anything to write home about. I actually don't think its that big of a deal in today's NFL. I'm more concerned about him floating passes to the sideline.
Jones doesn’t need to crow hop to get power behind the ball. There was a play (I think against Clemson or Miami) where he was forced left out of the pocket, reset and fire downfield while getting smacked in the face and he got the ball down the field while falling backwards. He has the arm. He just prefers to use touch.
RE: RE: Isn't one noodle-armed QB on the roster enough? Â
Just stop. This dude could have teams falling over themselves to grab him and nobody will be convinced their half assed analysis is wrong.
At least bw backs up his opinion with hard reasoning.
Fact is, Every QB has his warts. Darnold turns the ball over with his rat claws, Rosen has concussion and attitude concerns, Baker has a bit of a character issue in his history, Tom Brady looked like a wimp at the combine, Lamar Jackson relies on his legs too much and might not be as bright as yhe average bulb (per the Wonderlic)...
Daniel Jones cant go on a scramble drill and then chuck it 70 yards in the air to the open guy.
RE: Maybe your right, but I did play QB and hopped twice to get everything Â
he could behind it. It's fine if you like him, but you don't need to make up false narratives. There are things to like about the guy, but to post a video of him mustering up all his power to get the ball down the field 55 yards isn't a plus.
I played qb too. Its not like he took a punt pass and kick few steps and then step into it.
Im not building false narratives. I like him better than anybody but Murray, but this idea that launched a rainbow shot to a receiver in stride os fucking stupid.
His footwork is picture perfect there. Although, after Patrick Mahomes I'm not sure how important proper footwork is in today's NFL. I'm a believer it is more important to be able to throw from different platforms now. My views on what constitutes in NFL QB has changed drastically in the last ten years due to the change in the game. Would have thought Kyler Murray would have been the biggest bust fifteen years ago. He can definitely play in the NFL today, although I do worry about what he has between the ears.
You show your ass again....Daniel Jones apparently is excellent at breaking down defenses.
Just stop dude. At least you ceased posting like a High Schooler on social media.
RE: RE: You know who's noodle armed in the NFL right now? Â
Tom Brady. So is Drew Brees. These guys can't throw it deep anymore the way they used to. And they don't really have to. Arm strength is the single most overrated aspect of a QB's ability. Rarely is it a significant plus, and rarely is it a significant minus.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Excellent point. Give me a guy who can throw the ball 15-35 yards accurately, get first downs with his feet when necessary, take a hit and get up looking at the sideline for the next play and is not afraid of competing against the best and that is the surest thing at quarterback you can ask for.
Ill take the sure to be good to very good QB over the guy who might be Jay Cutler, Matthew Stafford or could potentiall be Brett Favre.
article on Jones yesterday. For all the talk about experts thinking Jones stinks, this group certainly doesn't. Todd Haley thought he had the best tape of any QB in the class. Link - ( New Window )
RE: Haven't seen this posted yet but SI published their Â
article on Jones yesterday. For all the talk about experts thinking Jones stinks, this group certainly doesn't. Todd Haley thought he had the best tape of any QB in the class. Link - ( New Window )
I like the Ryan Fitzpatrick comp better.
RE: Haven't seen this posted yet but SI published their Â
article on Jones yesterday. For all the talk about experts thinking Jones stinks, this group certainly doesn't. Todd Haley thought he had the best tape of any QB in the class. Link - ( New Window )
The Ryan Fitzpatrick and Josh Allen comps don't exactly get me giddy... and this is the precise type of thinking on him I keep reading that makes me wonder why we would take him @ 6...
Quote:
Jones doesn’t have the big arm or velocity of an NFL franchise quarterback, but he has enough arm talent to get the job done.
I don't want a guy who is just there to "get the job done"... it feels like we're settling. If I'm taking a QB @ 6 overall, or even in the 1st round, I have to believe he has the potential to be a legitimate NFL starter - an above average one.
Even Haley is using qualifiers like "he has a chance..." "...if he lands in the right environment..." "needs quality coaching and a vet to learn from.."
Clinkscales says he has "...enough arm talent" - which, is another way - to me at least - of saying "adequate," and I'm not looking for adequate here.
I don't expect guys to scout a QB and say "no doubt day 1 starter and future star" - but even here, I don't see a ton of conviction on him. Some solid votes of confidence, but I haven't had a whole lot of luck finding reputable opinions that think he'd be a smart pick @ 6 overall or anyone who really thinks he's the best QB in this class.
Even if we take Murray out of the equation, I have a hard time finding guys who think Jones is better than both Haskins and Lock and would feel comfortable taking him over both those guys.
When you are looking at potential franchise QB's coming out of college, you usually see one of two things... (or both)
Either the guy had production that was hard to ignore regardless of supporting cast - which you have with Haskins - 50 TD's and 70%+ is impressive regardless of where you play. I don't want to hear about his teammates or supporting cast - he had an excellent year as a first year starter.
or...
The guy has an attribute/attributes that jump off the screen. I.e.. I think when you watch Drew Lock, you can see the arm talent on display. He has the most "live" arm in this class. And in Lock's case, he also played in the SEC and was a starter for more than a year - so, the experience and competition are there too.
Then, you have someone like Murray... who, not only produced, but also has the athletic ability and arm that will "wow" you for a guy that size. You could watch mostly any OU game and find yourself noticing Murray within a few plays.
Then, you have Daniel Jones....
The overall production isn't really impressive, so, you say... well, his teammates were poor. He was on a bad team. It's Duke. They'd have never even been on the map at all without him.
We heard this same stuff about Josh Allen - but with Josh Allen, it was that he had a huge arm. Clearly the strongest one in last years' class. So, some people were willing to toss the production and playing for WY stuff out the window.
When I read about Daniel Jones, it's always the same stuff...
"He's not a statue, he's mobile enough..."
"He has a good arm, not great or special..."
"Enough arm talent..."
I want to read something that tells me Daniel Jones is outstanding somewhere or has elite potential in some area, or can be a legitimate, upper tier NFL QB.
I don't want to keep reading the equivalent of "he's good enough.."
I think I've made this stupid joke before, but Daniel Jones is like the QB version of that AT&T commercial
"Just OK is not OK"
That's kind of how I feel about the QB position. If Jones is "good enough", that's not good enough for me and shouldn't be good enough for the Giants. Especially not when it means we're selecting him over a far superior defensive player.
Arc, have you watched full Duke and Ohio St games from Â
this past season? Curious what it is you think Haskins does better than Jones ignoring the stats. From what I saw, Jones like Haskins is very accurate on short and intermediate throws, sometimes throws a nice deep ball but is inconsistent in that regard, and he's more mobile. I like Haskins as a prospect but the difference between Jones and Haskins' teams were night and day and I'm not saying that based on who's expected to be drafted where but rather how often Jones' pocket collapsed immediately, his receivers inability to gain separation + dropped passes, and the lack a rushing attack.
Jay on the Island posted this link the other day quoting scouts on Aaron Rodgers from the 2005 predraft process. Now, I'm not saying Jones will be Aaron Rodgers or even a starting NFL qb but the same things that don't get you excited about Jones as a franchise QB sound a whole lot like what people say about Jones. Link - ( New Window )
I saw a few OSU games, I wasn't able to watch entire Duke games - I've had to watch what I can on Jones post-season.
I just like Haskins more as a passer. I think he has a better, more advanced NFL arm and a higher likelihood of being a guy who can develop a legitimate deep ball to go with his outstanding short and mid range accuracy.
I see too much air under Jones' deep ball and he looks like he needs to really step into it to get it down the field. The ball flutters off his hands at times - and a lot of the passes he throws beyond 20 yards look like throws that faster NFL DB's will close on quicker and make plays on rather than drop into his targets hands.
Haskins has his own problems... footwork in particular. But with Haskins, I at least feel the ceiling is there to become something special. I like his throwing motion, I think he does move well inside the pocket and has a good feel for rushers (this is something Jones has struggled with from what I gather) and I've seen him take off and take 10-15 free yards when the back 7 are dropped and there's a lane.
Haskins performed in some pretty big games. He put up numbers on some quality college defenses. I think his arm is stronger than Jones' and can develop into a top flight NFL arm with good coaching.
With Jones, I don't love the release.. I see him as more of a "touch" passer than a guy who really drives it into tight windows. He pats the ball a lot in the pocket and does stuff that adds to his time getting the ball out.
I just think Haskins is a more advanced, more polished passer with a higher ceiling. I could easily be wrong on this - Lord knows I've been wrong before, but that's just how I view them.
As for Rodgers... obviously a ton of scouts whiffed on him. But I didn't see many of them ever question Rodgers' arm strength. I don't remember watching much of Rodgers @ Cal.. so I can't even really tell you what I saw back then, but I doubt anyone was worrying about him being able to sling it - most of the concerns seemed to be about his system, mechanics, size, etc.
I also wonder if Rodgers would have been the same exact guy if he had been a day 1 starter. I know Favre had virtually no interest in mentoring him and probably didn't do a whole lot for him - but Rodgers did sit for 3 full years before he became a starter. That's a long time and very out of the ordinary for a guy who wound up being as good as he is.
It wasn't until Rodgers 5th year in the NFL that he became a household name. He's sort of anomalous for reasons like that - but I get the overall point, obviously its funny to see people have said he's Joey Harrington or Kyle Boller now that we know where his career really went.
Funny enough, I actually see where they would get the Joey Harrington comp from. Rodgers wound up being far better, but I could see some of the play style similarities.
Anyway, that's just how I see things.
The bottom line for me is that all of the "good enough," and "can get the job done" talk regarding Jones doesn't excite me.
Zierlein actually used the same exact player comp for him that I used a couple months ago... Ryan Tannehill. That's who I see when I watch Jones. The only difference is that @ A&M, Tannehill was much more of a play action, rollout QB - Jones was a very shotgun-heavy, RPO-oriented QB. But I think Jones is going to have a similar NFL career... and that's closer to best case for him than what I think is more likely... which is a guy who just doesn't cut it as a starter.
That said, if we take Jones... like I've said many times, I won't be the classic "shits on Barkley because he wanted a QB" poster that we had several versions of all throughout this past season who couldn't get past not drafting a QB and wouldn't get behind Barkley as a result. I will pull for Jones from day 1 and hope he's every bit as good as Eli was.
than Josh Allen - who was really all tools/questionable tool box.
I could see that, but I think Wentz was/is better with his legs and throws a better deep ball. There are similarities, though.
I actually don't see much Josh Allen in Jones myself - I brought Allen up mostly because two of the 3 guys in the roundtable link used him as a comp. When I compare Allen and Jones, it's more to illustrate the similar situations they were in - on less-heralded programs and lesser talent surrounding them as opposed to guys like Haskins/Murray who played with better players.
I actually like Jones more than Josh Allen, believe it or not.
That’s why I won’t love Jones @ 6 but I’m ok w it. I’m hoping for quinnen to fall like everyone else. But Allen went 7 last year and was in the 1OA convo so I just don’t see it as a huge stretch with Jones at 6 and if they like him that much it’s actually encouraging. I’m not an expert but it seems reasonable in the value sense. I actually find Jones most similar to Darnold last year, though I think he has a lower floor. Darnold has a flashier arm but also was a lot more turnover prone.
First, many "draft experts" are trapped by the need to make thing simple for the lowest capable slice of the audience. Hence when Eli came out almost everyone said "he is not Payton, he is Payton lite"
My point is that conventional "wisdom" often starts with lazy comparisons that are easy to remember.
One can come up with reasons not to draft every Qb. Its a risk to draft.
Second, one thing Eli has been infuriatingly poor at (compared to say Brees or Brady) throughout his career is short passes with touch in stride. Screen passes that allow forward momentum from the get go. Slot Receivers who can get yards after the catch instead of fall down upon the catch.
That addition alone would have made Jacobs and Bradshaw and Ward incredibly more productive. Now that we have Barkley such an "addition" to the successful execution of our playbook would be more than welcome.
Third, I sure hope the guys who want to see a more analytical approach realize that QB pre game and game mental processing and preparation ( something Eli was better than average at when there was an actual NFl Ol) is the fulcrum upon which greater use of analytics is predicated.
Could it be that "game manager" is a perjorative in the old NFl or even the current NFl but not necessarily as sizeable a limitation in the emerging NFL?
The throw to Manningham, the guts of the SF championship game in 2011 and Brady's amazing throws to Moss at the very end of the 2007 SB are the legendary memories where elite human performance lifts beyond analytics...but I point out that Brady has several SB after 2007 and 2011 and his teams ability to prepare offset a decline in arm power.
The SB the Pats won since 2010 are to me the product of an elite system of preparation and execution of probabilities...not necessarily the manifestation of the NFLs best QB from an athletic point of view.
Smarts, option processing, coverage reads, repeatable motions and simple stuff done fast is increasingly a desirable QB trait.
So is recovering from awful throws, games and foot in mouth moments.
I have no idea where Jones stacks up on those dimensions and therefore is the moldable clay of the next era ( biggest mistake of too many decision makers is fighting the last war).
Id like the NYG to be watchable after several years of ugly football before I entertain critique of what our next QB does not have.
The amusing thing for me is I remember years ago Â
The pejorative comment about Eli used to be, “If his name wasn’t Manning, he wouldn’t have been #1 overall. If his name was Smith or Jones, he would be a 3rd round pick.”
the biggest correlation to success for a Qb with processing ability is an OL able to reduce time pressure from up the middle of the pocket.
The OL is just as important as the Qb pick.
Reducing the drain on the cap from the OL and QB positions while getting both to above NFl average performance is step one.
End of career Qbs strain that. Years of bad drafting produces an OL with some end of career FA salaries.
Belief that we are starting to get both units to average pay as a unit for above average performance starts to make the Giants more believable and watchable. IMO
Smarts, option processing, coverage reads, repeatable motions and simple stuff done fast is increasingly a desirable QB trait.
This statement captures some of the key determining factors the successful QB's who have "it" all seem to share. Especially the ones who had success early like Mayfield, Russell Wilson, Watson, etc. They are also qualities that are literally almost impossible for us as fans to decipher. Not necessarily through any faults of our own, just the reality of coaches having access to the players and an understanding of what they are being asked to do every play. Not just what the results are, which can easily be impacted by literally 100's of factors they have no control over (like their teammates doing the right thing or the wrong thing).
I also won't presume to know where Jones rates comparatively, within this class or vs. guys last year, but I don't think it's crazy to think it could be a strength. He played relatively low-error football despite an extremely challenging environment around him and elevated his team beyond where they've been in the modern bowl era.
RE: RE: Arc just my 2 cents but I think Jones is far more comparable to Wentz Â
than Josh Allen - who was really all tools/questionable tool box.
I could see that, but I think Wentz was/is better with his legs and throws a better deep ball. There are similarities, though.
I actually don't see much Josh Allen in Jones myself - I brought Allen up mostly because two of the 3 guys in the roundtable link used him as a comp. When I compare Allen and Jones, it's more to illustrate the similar situations they were in - on less-heralded programs and lesser talent surrounding them as opposed to guys like Haskins/Murray who played with better players.
I actually like Jones more than Josh Allen, believe it or not.
Again we disagree. While Wentz may thriw a better deep ball, his open field quickness and lane picks are not on the level of Jones. Jones is not a shake n bake mobile quarterback, but the lines he picks are usually gashing ones. I have also yet to see Wentz throw a ball that Jones couldnt as well.
And Bill2 very well said.
There are guys that are just football players and I think DJ is one of those guys. I see him taking a hit and having blood on his chin and getting up to run the hurry up. Tannenhill wasnt that guy. But if he was, Miami probably would have won more games.
RE: RE: Isn't one noodle-armed QB on the roster enough? Â
predictive to Jones' career in any way. Tannehill was a converted WR who lacked passing ability and didn't get a ton of starts in college - he was a known project. In the pros he wasn't awful, he just clearly reached a stalled point in his development - but Miami wasn't the best run franchise either. There have been a lot worse busts than him, in 80 starts he's got an 87 qb rating and almost twice as many td as ints. Mark Sanchez, Matt Leinart, Christian Ponder he's not.
To me, the essential characteristics are impossible for us to know and hard for any scout/FO to know.
That does not put me in the "lets trust our leaders" camp.
It does say that some of the weaknesses named by the conventional non wisdom that we see about all these QBs are accurate ( lets perhaps agree that long throws are a relative weakness compared to the NFLS best throwers) are not the ones that matter compared to intangible strengths we hear about second hand.
I also point out that QBs are composites.
"He has the arm strength that reminds me of Tannehill".
"He reminds me of Eli in the pocket but a better runner is he had to."
" He does not have Brees mechanics"
" He cant do what Watson did on this play"
There is no players called TannehillManningBreesWentz Watson.
What does feel clear to me is that given the talent level of Duke football, we can only assume that Jones could be an elite game manager and leader under/after adversity.
Doesn't seem like he can throw like Marino. Montana couldn't come close to the arm of Marino or Elway or Farve. Or, or, or. Had a good career.
All this says to me is that over the last draft and this one; there have no been QBs so physically talented that one can consistently win a playoff game without putting an Ol and a DL around him.
I'm not under the illusion that a QB can win games alone without a team around him - but there are different types of QB's.
Some guys are just there to go along for the ride... like Mark Sanchez in 2009 and 2010 with the Jets. Or either Denver QB in 2015 (Osweiler, Peyton)... in Denver's case, they won it all. The Jets got to the AFCC game in consecutive years.
In those situations, the QB's really weren't elevating their teams or teammates. They were basically told "hand it off, don't take risks throwing the ball, and take what the defense gives you"
Guys like Russell Wilson elevate the guys around them and make their teams better.
Is Daniel Jones closer to the former - or can he be the latter?
I'm not interested in an adequate QB with the 6th overall pick. I'm looking for a guy who impacts games. And I understand that won't happen right away with probably anyone other than Murray in this crop - which is fine - but again, it's a matter of ceiling for me and I don't see it with Jones.
If it's 17th that we take Jones after taking a defensive player @ 6?
being comparable in talent doesn't mean you can't play well and rise to big moments. Russell Wilson isn't the most talented QB in the NFL by a long shot but he's always played well in big games. There's a world of difference between Russell Wilson the QB and Dak Prescott the QB even though from a talent standpoint they're comparable.
Dalton has started over 100 NFL games with almost 2 tds for every int. On a macro level I'd sign for that sight unseen from whoever Eli's successor is. That is probably in the top 80-90 percentile of production from all first round qb outcomes.
Btw - here's a timely write-up of Jones from Bob McGinn's series Â
Mcginn is consistently 1 of the best covering the combine and getting real opinions from scouts that end up informing the most accurate projections of where people go in the draft. I think his overview of Jones passes a lot of the eye tests many of us have discussed - both positive and negative (lack of "playmaking gene").
Quote:
4. DANIEL JONES, Duke (6-5, 222, 4.76, 1-2): Fourth-year junior with a 17-19 record in 36 starts. “There’s not many guys that have a losing record in college that are successful in the NFL,” one scout said. “John Elway. Jay Cutler was another one.” Was all set to attend Princeton when Duke, his dream destination, swooped in at the last minute. “He’s probably the most ready to play,” said another scout. “I’m a big David Cutcliffe guy and his ability to deal with quarterbacks. He was really good in the Senior Bowl practices.” Good athlete with a 33 ½-inch vertical jump and a 10-0 broad jump. “I think he’ll be a mid-level starter and you’ll be happy to have him,” said a third scout. “Pretty polished in his technique. Sees the field pretty good. He’s tough. Got a little movement.” Finished with a passer rating of 82.9, including 90.0 in 2018. “I just don’t see any elite traits,” a fourth scout said. “What makes me cautious is I don’t think he’s ideally accurate and he’s a little bit hesitant in his decision-making. He’s got the big arm but it doesn’t appear natural for him.” Wonderlic of 37. “You can tell he’s well-schooled,” said a fifth scout. “He’s a good athlete but his vision is not good. He’s not very accurate at any level. He doesn’t have good pocket feel. He reminds me of Ryan Tannehill. There’s just something missing with him. Even though he’s well-schooled he doesn’t have that play-making gene in him.” From Charlotte, N.C.
IMO the biggest question with him is how heavily his collegiate performance needs to be weighted against the quality of players around him. Did he lack a play making gene because nobody around him could make a play? He led his talent deficient group to back to back bowl game wins, so the past 2 years he had winning records, which IMO is very different than someone like Cutler who went 4 years without a single winning record.
Of the 3 QB's ranked above Jones (1. Murray 2. Haskins 3. Lock) the write-ups are also pretty consistent with others out there. All 3 are more boom or bust but higher upside.
RE: Btw - here's a timely write-up of Jones from Bob McGinn's series Â
Mcginn is consistently 1 of the best covering the combine and getting real opinions from scouts that end up informing the most accurate projections of where people go in the draft. I think his overview of Jones passes a lot of the eye tests many of us have discussed - both positive and negative (lack of "playmaking gene").
Quote:
4. DANIEL JONES, Duke (6-5, 222, 4.76, 1-2): Fourth-year junior with a 17-19 record in 36 starts. “There’s not many guys that have a losing record in college that are successful in the NFL,” one scout said. “John Elway. Jay Cutler was another one.” Was all set to attend Princeton when Duke, his dream destination, swooped in at the last minute. “He’s probably the most ready to play,” said another scout. “I’m a big David Cutcliffe guy and his ability to deal with quarterbacks. He was really good in the Senior Bowl practices.” Good athlete with a 33 ½-inch vertical jump and a 10-0 broad jump. “I think he’ll be a mid-level starter and you’ll be happy to have him,” said a third scout. “Pretty polished in his technique. Sees the field pretty good. He’s tough. Got a little movement.” Finished with a passer rating of 82.9, including 90.0 in 2018. “I just don’t see any elite traits,” a fourth scout said. “What makes me cautious is I don’t think he’s ideally accurate and he’s a little bit hesitant in his decision-making. He’s got the big arm but it doesn’t appear natural for him.” Wonderlic of 37. “You can tell he’s well-schooled,” said a fifth scout. “He’s a good athlete but his vision is not good. He’s not very accurate at any level. He doesn’t have good pocket feel. He reminds me of Ryan Tannehill. There’s just something missing with him. Even though he’s well-schooled he doesn’t have that play-making gene in him.” From Charlotte, N.C.
IMO the biggest question with him is how heavily his collegiate performance needs to be weighted against the quality of players around him. Did he lack a play making gene because nobody around him could make a play? He led his talent deficient group to back to back bowl game wins, so the past 2 years he had winning records, which IMO is very different than someone like Cutler who went 4 years without a single winning record.
Of the 3 QB's ranked above Jones (1. Murray 2. Haskins 3. Lock) the write-ups are also pretty consistent with others out there. All 3 are more boom or bust but higher upside.
These guys are echoing all of the stuff I keep saying...
Quote:
“I just don’t see any elite traits,” a fourth scout said. “What makes me cautious is I don’t think he’s ideally accurate and he’s a little bit hesitant in his decision-making. He’s got the big arm but it doesn’t appear natural for him.” Wonderlic of 37. “You can tell he’s well-schooled,” said a fifth scout. “He’s a good athlete but his vision is not good. He’s not very accurate at any level. He doesn’t have good pocket feel. He reminds me of Ryan Tannehill. There’s just something missing with him. Even though he’s well-schooled he doesn’t have that play-making gene in him.” From Charlotte, N.C.
Those two guys are capturing my perception of Jones to a "T"
They could be wrong... and not everyone is saying that, but that's exactly what I see.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Isn't one noodle-armed QB on the roster enough? Â
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
Not that I'm an expert, but that's what it looked like to me too. When a QB has to wait a moment, they generally don't stand flat footed, they keep moving, whether its a bit of "hopping" or sliding in the pocket
RE: RE: Btw - here's a timely write-up of Jones from Bob McGinn's series Â
Those two guys are capturing my perception of Jones to a "T"
They could be wrong... and not everyone is saying that, but that's exactly what I see.
I don't think anyone disagrees with what those observations, I haven't seen anyone claim Jones has elite traits. I think where everyone differs is in the importance of how they value those traits vs. the mental/intangible side of the position. Back to one of my earlier analogies, he doesn't have the best tools but he may have a great tool box - which IMO is just as if not more important for QB's.
Cutler and Vick had tools Brady, Brees, Rivers, Romo, and both Mannings could only dream about. A lot harder to win with tools and no tool box vs. the other way around.
Yes and no... Peyton was viewed pretty unanimously as a guy who should be taken at the very top of the 98 draft. Obviously Leaf was, too... and that was the great debate. But I think Peyton was pretty widely regarded as one of the best QB prospects in quite some time at the point where he entered.
There were some concerns about his velocity and zip, but I don't think anyone ever questioned Peyton's accuracy. Peyton was a great college QB on an SEC team, too.
Roethlisberger was touted for his arm strength, quick release, compact throwing motion. Great arm, accurate deep ball, etc.
Ben's questions were more about his durability, not necessarily getting enough air under his deep ball (kind of the opposite issue of Jones)
There was no question that Ben was worthy of being picked early in the 1st round. Even back in '04. He was a really good QB prospect.
And sometimes elite tools do translate... Mahomes and Rodgers being two good examples.
and elite arms don't necessarily translate to elite QB play. They're certainly preferred, but they aren't a must have. I'm not saying Jones will be an elite QB, I have no idea. I just think his tools are only a portion of what will end up making him a good QB or not, and not the most important part (the mental side of the game).
Also he showed really solid athleticism at the combine, he has the highest wonderlic of QB's in this draft, prototypical size, and possibly the best coaching, so he's got some tangible things going for him beyond the possibility that his intangibles are very strong.
His footwork is picture perfect there. Although, after Patrick Mahomes I'm not sure how important proper footwork is in today's NFL. I'm a believer it is more important to be able to throw from different platforms now. My views on what constitutes in NFL QB has changed drastically in the last ten years due to the change in the game. Would have thought Kyler Murray would have been the biggest bust fifteen years ago. He can definitely play in the NFL today, although I do worry about what he has between the ears.
You show your ass again....Daniel Jones apparently is excellent at breaking down defenses.
Just stop dude. At least you ceased posting like a High Schooler on social media.
Are you replying to the wrong post? I don't see anything criticizing Jones' defense reading in the one you replied to.
Can someone show me why Jones isn't at least an accurate passer? Â
Because I don't see that at all. He seems plenty accurate to me. There are other criticisms sure, but accuracy is one that I disagree with.
The arm strength knock was debunked, so now it’s his accuracy that sucks ... I’m not going to claim Jones has laser-like precision, but it’s not a glaring weakness either. His OL/WR were awful, embarrassing to watch actually.
RE: Can someone show me why Jones isn't at least an accurate passer? Â
Because I don't see that at all. He seems plenty accurate to me. There are other criticisms sure, but accuracy is one that I disagree with.
Look at the numbers. Where has he displayed good accuracy?
From the LOS-10 yards, his completion % was lower than any QB in this class outside of Thorson, Stidham and Jackson. (72.36%)
For comparison, Haskins was tops here @ 81.51%
From the LOS-20 yards, his accuracy was worse than any QB in this class aside from Jackson. (52.46%)
For comparison, Haskins was also tops here @ 65.35%
20 yards+ - again, worse than every QB besides Thorson, Stidham and Jackson. (44.19%)
Murray is the leader here @ ~60%
Overall accuracy, Jones is 3rd from the bottom - ahead of only Stidham and Jackson (68.85%)
Haskins tops this category at a hair under 79%
Against pressure? Jones is again near the bottom @ about 52%
Haskins leads this category @ 63%
3rd and 4th down accuracy finds Jones @ 64% - ahead of just Minshew and Stidham.
Haskins tops this category @ 81%
In Jones' college career, he completed under 60% of his passes.
None of the numbers say Daniel Jones is an accurate passer relative to his peers.
See, I knew someone was going to point to this when I brought up his accuracy. Completion percentage just doesn't tell the whole story. Especially when you consider how dreadful his receivers hands have been.
RE: RE: Can someone show me why Jones isn't at least an accurate passer? Â
I'm fairly certain drops were taken into account in those numbers.
I heard some of the same stuff about Lamar Jackson... his completion numbers suffered because his surrounding talent sucked. That didn't change in the NFL. He's still inaccurate.
Jones is a much better passer than Jackson, but completion numbers don't always jump in the NFL just because the surrounding players are better.
If you can back up the case that he IS as accurate a passer as guys like Murray and Haskins, I'd be willing to listen. But nothing I've looked at or seen has bared that out.
I'm actually curious as to what makes Daniel Jones a superior prospect to Ryan Finley.
What does Jones do that Finley can't?
I haven't watched Finley much so I'm not the best person to ask. Here's McGinn's write-up on him (he's ranked 5th, 1 spot behind Jones, but in a different tier being a 3-4 rd'er vs. 1-2 rd'er.
Quote:
5. RYAN FINLEY, North Carolina State (6-4, 209, 4.70, 3-4): Beat out Brett Rypien for the No. 1 job at Boise State in 2015 before suffering a season-ending ankle injury in Game 3. Graduated, then left to start 39 games for the Wolfpack from 2016-’18. “He’ll be able to run the show,” said one scout. “He’s accurate. Real smart. Not a big kid. Just lean.” Six-year collegian who will be 25 in December. “He is accurate,” a second scout said. “Doesn’t have the strongest arm. His arm is good enough. Very consistent and smart. Like him. He just completes passes.” Took the Wonderlic twice, improving from 28 to a 43 that led the QBs. Finished with a passer rating of 93.2. “Tall, gangly guy,” said a third scout. “He actually moves around pretty good for being such a big dude. He runs that offense. More of a system, get-your-first-guy guy. After that, he’s not a true play-maker. Arm’s just average. Forces a lot of balls. Has a lot of ‘what is he doing?’ kind of throws where he just chucks it up to that big receiver of his (Kelvin Harmon).” Hails from Phoenix.
On face value he had better players around him than Jones (obviously Harmon) and his stats were better but weren't worlds apart. He played in the same conference and similarly lead his teams to bowl games, so there are certainly similarities. Jones seems a little more toolsy and he's 4 full years younger so those are at least 2 reasons I could see liking him more. If he's viewed as more system versatile I could see that being another but that's hard to judge as a fan.
I'm fairly certain drops were taken into account in those numbers.
I heard some of the same stuff about Lamar Jackson... his completion numbers suffered because his surrounding talent sucked. That didn't change in the NFL. He's still inaccurate.
Jones is a much better passer than Jackson, but completion numbers don't always jump in the NFL just because the surrounding players are better.
If you can back up the case that he IS as accurate a passer as guys like Murray and Haskins, I'd be willing to listen. But nothing I've looked at or seen has bared that out.
I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert but I think he's pretty accurate. I've seen him deliver deep balls on a line and connect with pressure in his face.
Is he the most accurate QB in the draft? No. The one criticism as far as his accuracy that I can get behind is that he doesn't always lead his receiver, which limits opportunities for YAC. But it is far from a deal breaker. He's still an accurate passer.
He's not my favorite QB in the draft. There are other QB's I like more than him. But I just think the knocks on his accuracy are overblown. Its that time of year where we have to find things we dislike about every QB prospect and this is one of them for me. We go through this every single year.
in addition to the post above, just looked at his gamelog, he put up a similar statline to Jones against Clemson this year - which I've noted before was Jones' the single most impressive thing I've watched on him. He made numerous pro throws, took a beating, protected the football, and would have had a lead on them at halftime if his teammates weren't so awful. I honestly thought he looked like Luck on those Colt teams that almost got him killed on the field. If I get a chance today I'll go back and watch Finley's game against them.
in addition to the post above, just looked at his gamelog, he put up a similar statline to Jones against Clemson this year - which I've noted before was Jones' the single most impressive thing I've watched on him. He made numerous pro throws, took a beating, protected the football, and would have had a lead on them at halftime if his teammates weren't so awful. I honestly thought he looked like Luck on those Colt teams that almost got him killed on the field. If I get a chance today I'll go back and watch Finley's game against them.
I recommend you do watch that Clemson-NC St game. Finley had two big gain passes dropped in that game. And I'm sure one was going to be a TD. And he was under pressure all day. But watch his poise and how he keeps his head up with the Clemson rush bearing down.
in addition to the post above, just looked at his gamelog, he put up a similar statline to Jones against Clemson this year - which I've noted before was Jones' the single most impressive thing I've watched on him. He made numerous pro throws, took a beating, protected the football, and would have had a lead on them at halftime if his teammates weren't so awful. I honestly thought he looked like Luck on those Colt teams that almost got him killed on the field. If I get a chance today I'll go back and watch Finley's game against them.
I recommend you do watch that Clemson-NC St game. Finley had two big gain passes dropped in that game. And I'm sure one was going to be a TD. And he was under pressure all day. But watch his poise and how he keeps his head up with the Clemson rush bearing down.
I will I'll watch today - but seriously that description is exactly how I saw Jones' performance against them too.
in their respective matchups vs. the national champs. His arm looked weaker than Jones. He didn't seem to be able to make as much happen on the move. The 2nd INT was a big time force into coverage (first one was on his WR) and he almost had a 3rd INT throwing back over the middle late in the 3Q.
The single most impressive thing to me about Jones vs. Clemson was that he took all those hits, with that crappy OL, and those crappy WR's dropping everything, and he somehow still didn't turn the ball over.
I liked his touch down the field on the 2 balls his WR's dropped and the back shoulder 3rd down he completed. But honestly if you were asking me to describe him I'd say a thinner, less toolsy, less mobile, version of Jones. Other than the turnovers their stats were almost exactly same, I just thought Jones tools looked more impressive, especially since he kept the game close longer.
Hmmmm....
Do you have a feeling or are you just in your feelings?
I mean I like Murray and then Haskins, but honestly I want Ed Oliver if the big three don't fall. Daniel Jones isn't my favorite QB, but I love his short pass accuracy. He puts balls in perfect spots. To me I won't be disappointed with almost anyone we draft unless we reach for someone way out there like Grier.
It is funny yesterday I was under the impression and would have bet anything that pick 6 was a lock at Def... However I think the Giants won't mess around and IF they want a QB it will be at 6.
I’m a Haskins guy myself but aside from that I go into every draft prepared for disappointment. Other than Barkley last year I haven’t been right since we drafted john mendenhall back before color television lol
at pick 17 isn’t there, they’d consider trading down with Pats...Is Jones that player?
Hmmmm....
and from Duke! Hmmm
at pick 17 isn’t there, they’d consider trading down with Pats...Is Jones that player?
DG just said he would be shocked if there wasn't a player they loved at 17.... To me that means he probably has 15 players he loves and of course at least 2 players would be taken outside of his top 15.
Hmmmm....
Did Brown even wear 17 at Duke?
Threw the ball over 60 yards in the air at the combine hitting the receiver (a draft prospect, not one of his shitty Duke guys) in stride. He has plenty of arm.
Quote:
#17...
Hmmmm....
Did Brown even wear 17 at Duke?
I've never seen any photos of him playing at college, I have no idea
I beg to differ K, jones is obviously falling forward. It’s the duck and fall backwards move i need to see lol
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In comment 14392284 Bold Ruler said:
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#17...
Hmmmm....
Did Brown even wear 17 at Duke?
I've never seen any photos of him playing at college, I have no idea
Brown wore #7 @ Duke...
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I beg to differ K, jones is obviously falling forward. It’s the duck and fall backwards move i need to see lol
I'm not wild about Jones, but the arm strength stuff is so overblown. Is he going to be a Mahomes/Josh Allen/young Flacco-type? Of course not, but if his decision-making skills are there, he's got plenty of arm strength to be successful. That said, I'd take him at 37, not 6.
I love how every time there is a post on Haskins you throw cold water on it...immediately.
I’m with Amtoft. I’m preparing to be disappointed, but I’m still with Amtoft. And no amount of cold water can stop me from at least holding out a scintilla of hope, even if it will be dashed in a week.
For the next week, I still can hope for Haskins. And no one can take that away from me.
I think this Eli 2.0 stuff is all media-driven bull. And I don't think Eli is even the type of QB Shurmur would want, given choices.
They are. It’s exactly what they are trying to do.
65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
This draft is going to be so interesting. Unless there is a great shift in thinking, 6 is almost stone cold lock to be defense but 17 could go either way. I still think the value on the QBs is close enough that they try for Grier .
if Jones or Lock fall to 17 then who knows...but to trade up the price will be high....but we do have tremendous draft capital at our disposal. However that kind of investment at least to me signals this is Elis last year and lots of media attention on the shiny new toy. Dont know if they want to commit to that yet...dont know.
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My biggest fear with this guy is that they're trying to get "Eli v.2.0" - and that he's not going to be anything close.
I think this Eli 2.0 stuff is all media-driven bull. And I don't think Eli is even the type of QB Shurmur would want, given choices.
But how much input does Shurmur really have?
That's the question. Gettleman and Mara probably have more stake in this than he does. And those two guys absolutely would want another Eli if they had the option, I'd think...
Even Boylhart is going with the same narrative...
Part of me feels like they do think Jones is another Eli in a lot of ways... but I had far more confidence in Eli Manning as a prospect than I do Dan Jones.
Eli said there'd be days like this.
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
That's 55 yards with clean pocket stepping up big time. Why you gotta lie or you just bad at math
No but he gets really good loft and drops that 55 yarder in a bucket.
Kid, you don't know the half of it.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Watched the Clemson game, he's got the entire package.
He makes good decisions, he get's the ball out, he can move, he is accurate inside, outside, deep and short. He throws a nice fade and a nice seam.
I like the air under his deep ball.
The critique of his lack of arm strength is inaccurate.
I'd prefer defense at 6 but if Jones is their guy, I'm on board.
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In comment 14392354 arcarsenal said:
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My biggest fear with this guy is that they're trying to get "Eli v.2.0" - and that he's not going to be anything close.
I think this Eli 2.0 stuff is all media-driven bull. And I don't think Eli is even the type of QB Shurmur would want, given choices.
But how much input does Shurmur really have?
That's the question. Gettleman and Mara probably have more stake in this than he does. And those two guys absolutely would want another Eli if they had the option, I'd think...
Even Boylhart is going with the same narrative...
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Daniel reminds me a lot of the Giants Eli Manning. He has the same ability in the pocket to extend plays and the same quiet leadership on the field. He also seems to have that inner strength that allows him to deal with his mistakes and his teammates mistakes without getting too high or too low during the game.
Part of me feels like they do think Jones is another Eli in a lot of ways... but I had far more confidence in Eli Manning as a prospect than I do Dan Jones.
Those traits aren't bad though. I don't think its a stretch to assume they value those traits because they've experienced first hand how beneficial they can be. That makes sense. But I also don't believe that they're going to choose him over another QB who is better just because of them.
I absolutely believe Shurmur has a lot of input. In fact, I think he has more than anyone. If they draft a QB in the 1st round, it'll be Shurmurs guy. I don't know that for sure obviously, but its just my opinion...which is why I'm not worried about it. If they pick Jones, I think Shurmur knows he can make him successful.
Hold my beer while I get my gun.
J/K
If that's what they want then I'm all for it.
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
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In comment 14392340 Red Dog said:
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
That's 55 yards with clean pocket stepping up big time. Why you gotta lie or you just bad at math
Sorry I miscounted because it was gif and I was trying to post quickly. Why do I have to be lying and you have to type in a sentence structure that makes you sound like a teenager on Facebook?
And I prefer Lock to Jones, despite Jones' impeccable mechanics, as with Lock I see more passion and a hair trigger release. When I watch Jones, I'm reminded of Eli. When I watch Lock, I see the young Bradshaw.
Exactly. That doesnt really happen any more. Unless you have a guy who can win a 50/50 ball while covered like Randy Moss, most teams dont have that in their arsenal.
They Can't Take That Away From Me.
And I prefer Lock to Jones, despite Jones' impeccable mechanics, as with Lock I see more passion and a hair trigger release. When I watch Jones, I'm reminded of Eli. When I watch Lock, I see the young Bradshaw.
I don't get the Eli comments other than they look a little alike but Eli has a much bigger arm and Jones is much faster and agile. He had a 7.00 3 cone for goodness sake. Maybe because they both have nice movement in the pocket.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Excellent point. Give me a guy who can throw the ball 15-35 yards accurately, get first downs with his feet when necessary, take a hit and get up looking at the sideline for the next play and is not afraid of competing against the best and that is the surest thing at quarterback you can ask for.
Ill take the sure to be good to very good QB over the guy who might be Jay Cutler, Matthew Stafford or could potentiall be Brett Favre.
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and it's fun. But there is an awful lot of Eli in Daniel Jones, and possibly a more athletic Eli. And while I love Eli, I can't be blind to the totality of his NFL career.
And I prefer Lock to Jones, despite Jones' impeccable mechanics, as with Lock I see more passion and a hair trigger release. When I watch Jones, I'm reminded of Eli. When I watch Lock, I see the young Bradshaw.
I don't get the Eli comments other than they look a little alike but Eli has a much bigger arm and Jones is much faster and agile. He had a 7.00 3 cone for goodness sake. Maybe because they both have nice movement in the pocket.
I agree he's faster and more agile, that's why I described him as more athletic, though I don't know that his arm is much worse than Eli's, certainly not the 2018 version of Eli.
But it's his mechanics and how he looks in the that reminds me most of Eli.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Yeh but most guys get to that point in the league because they have been there for 15 years. They can get away with not having good arm strength because of the way they see the game and unbelievable accuracy. In the beginning accuracy isn't enough because it takes a long time to get the type of mental processing they posess.
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Tom Brady. So is Drew Brees. These guys can't throw it deep anymore the way they used to. And they don't really have to. Arm strength is the single most overrated aspect of a QB's ability. Rarely is it a significant plus, and rarely is it a significant minus.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Yeh but most guys get to that point in the league because they have been there for 15 years. They can get away with not having good arm strength because of the way they see the game and unbelievable accuracy. In the beginning accuracy isn't enough because it takes a long time to get the type of mental processing they posess.
Accuracy is always important. His arm isn't a noodle in fact when people talk about who he looks like I would say DeShaun Watson who many said he didn't have the arm strength at QB.
Jones does not.
Jones does not.
You sure about that... athletically they are very similar
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#17...
Hmmmm....
and from Duke! Hmmm
Straight from the department of redundancy department.
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Watson has elite escapability and play extension ability.
Jones does not.
You sure about that... athletically they are very similar
Quite sure.
Watson made several highlight reel plays by dodging multiple defenders and buying himself time to throw a bomb down the field to an open Will Fuller or DeAndre Hopkins.
Jones isn't going to make plays like this in the NFL...
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I absolutely believe Shurmur has a lot of input. In fact, I think he has more than anyone. If they draft a QB in the 1st round, it'll be Shurmurs guy. I don't know that for sure obviously, but its just my opinion...which is why I'm not worried about it. If they pick Jones, I think Shurmur knows he can make him successful.
I sure hope not. Shurmur hasn't been successful enough to deserve a draft strategy tailored around satisfying his preferences.
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In comment 14392430 arcarsenal said:
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Watson has elite escapability and play extension ability.
Jones does not.
You sure about that... athletically they are very similar
Quite sure.
Watson made several highlight reel plays by dodging multiple defenders and buying himself time to throw a bomb down the field to an open Will Fuller or DeAndre Hopkins.
Jones isn't going to make plays like this in the NFL...
Conversely, I think Jones is a lot quicker thinker with the ball and a much more durable QB than Watson.
Fwiw, I dont think the athletic comparison to Watson is correct. Someone compared him athletically to Tannenhill. THAT I agree with.
Btw arc, I was more than a touch drunk last night when I broke your balls on the Yanks thread. I didnt mean to call you out, just saw other bust you about becoming a Yanks fan and prob used bad judgement. No hard feelings?
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In comment 14392340 Red Dog said:
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
That aspect of Watson's game is what makes him so dangerous. Teams go into games against Houston game planning to contain him and keep him from getting outside the pocket and doing the types of stuff he's doing above.
Jones doesn't have that. He's not painfully unathletic or anything, you can run some read option stuff with him and itll probably work fine... and if he's back there on a dropback with safeties deep and guys dropping into coverage and sees a running lane, I'm sure he can pick up some yards.
I just don't like the idea of spending a 1st round pick on a QB who we're talking about like a game manager already.
We should be taking a guy who can actually win us some football games by virtue of his ability. Not a guy who is just going to be a passenger and need everything around him to be right... which is what we're dealing with now.
True, Eli's contract vs. a rookie QB contract will certainly impact our ability to surround the QB with more talent... but so many opinions of Jones just seem to be more of the "he can get it done" variety than "he can be one of the better QB's in the game" or be something special.
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I absolutely believe Shurmur has a lot of input. In fact, I think he has more than anyone. If they draft a QB in the 1st round, it'll be Shurmurs guy. I don't know that for sure obviously, but its just my opinion...which is why I'm not worried about it. If they pick Jones, I think Shurmur knows he can make him successful.
I sure hope not. Shurmur hasn't been successful enough to deserve a draft strategy tailored around satisfying his preferences.
He's been successful enough at teaching quarterbacks how to quarterback and thats my point.
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In comment 14392360 FrankieR said:
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In comment 14392340 Red Dog said:
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
No, even at the Combine that same reliance in taking that extra steps forward on his long throws was noted by the analysts there as a problem once he would be playing in the NFL with its small pocket.
Grier in 1st?
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or a flier on Grier.
Grier in 1st?
Ugh, please no.
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In comment 14392430 arcarsenal said:
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Watson has elite escapability and play extension ability.
Jones does not.
You sure about that... athletically they are very similar
Quite sure.
Watson made several highlight reel plays by dodging multiple defenders and buying himself time to throw a bomb down the field to an open Will Fuller or DeAndre Hopkins.
Jones isn't going to make plays like this in the NFL...
Ah I see it... You are right that isn't Daniel Jones.
Arm strength a bit hard to tell on these clips, but let's withhold the benefit of the doubt and say Eli has--had--the stronger arm, it's not a big gap. But the way they look in the pocket is similar. Jones obviously with a lot more speed, coordination, and athleticism on the move (Ira: WTF were you seeing?? LOL). It's not like knock your socks off, but I can see the conservative Maras and the Eli v. 2 narrative, I can see it. Not sure I like it, but I see it.
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In comment 14392360 FrankieR said:
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In comment 14392340 Red Dog said:
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
He crow hopped two or three times into that throw.
He is not like Will CryBaby Grier at all, don’t you dare group that bum with the great Daniel Jones
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In comment 14392463 GFAN52 said:
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In comment 14392360 FrankieR said:
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In comment 14392340 Red Dog said:
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
He crow hopped two or three times into that throw.
A) you obviously dont know what a crow hop is
B) thats called gathering....and like I said he was timing his release with his receovers route (which happens when the route has more moving parts like a sluggo or a double move).
Bruh he’s not Lauletta I. The least bit. The closest to Lauletta in this draft is Will trashcan Grier
He really does NOT have a noodle arm, stop it
If you are trying to say Daniel Jones doesn't have proper foot work you are crazy. He is probably the most technically sound of all the QBs. His foot work is great.
As for that pass I find it shocking you are complaining about a perfectly dropped pass with beautiful loft land right in the basket at full stride.
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He really does NOT have a noodle arm, stop it
Just stop. This dude could have teams falling over themselves to grab him and nobody will be convinced their half assed analysis is wrong.
At least bw backs up his opinion with hard reasoning.
Fact is, Every QB has his warts. Darnold turns the ball over with his rat claws, Rosen has concussion and attitude concerns, Baker has a bit of a character issue in his history, Tom Brady looked like a wimp at the combine, Lamar Jackson relies on his legs too much and might not be as bright as yhe average bulb (per the Wonderlic)...
Daniel Jones cant go on a scramble drill and then chuck it 70 yards in the air to the open guy.
I played qb too. Its not like he took a punt pass and kick few steps and then step into it.
Im not building false narratives. I like him better than anybody but Murray, but this idea that launched a rainbow shot to a receiver in stride os fucking stupid.
You show your ass again....Daniel Jones apparently is excellent at breaking down defenses.
Just stop dude. At least you ceased posting like a High Schooler on social media.
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Tom Brady. So is Drew Brees. These guys can't throw it deep anymore the way they used to. And they don't really have to. Arm strength is the single most overrated aspect of a QB's ability. Rarely is it a significant plus, and rarely is it a significant minus.
Drew Brees doesn't put up incredible numbers every year because he can throw it deep. He does it because his footwork, balance, timing, and accuracy are all elite.
Excellent point. Give me a guy who can throw the ball 15-35 yards accurately, get first downs with his feet when necessary, take a hit and get up looking at the sideline for the next play and is not afraid of competing against the best and that is the surest thing at quarterback you can ask for.
Ill take the sure to be good to very good QB over the guy who might be Jay Cutler, Matthew Stafford or could potentiall be Brett Favre.
Link - ( New Window )
I like the Ryan Fitzpatrick comp better.
The Ryan Fitzpatrick and Josh Allen comps don't exactly get me giddy... and this is the precise type of thinking on him I keep reading that makes me wonder why we would take him @ 6...
I don't want a guy who is just there to "get the job done"... it feels like we're settling. If I'm taking a QB @ 6 overall, or even in the 1st round, I have to believe he has the potential to be a legitimate NFL starter - an above average one.
Even Haley is using qualifiers like "he has a chance..." "...if he lands in the right environment..." "needs quality coaching and a vet to learn from.."
Clinkscales says he has "...enough arm talent" - which, is another way - to me at least - of saying "adequate," and I'm not looking for adequate here.
I don't expect guys to scout a QB and say "no doubt day 1 starter and future star" - but even here, I don't see a ton of conviction on him. Some solid votes of confidence, but I haven't had a whole lot of luck finding reputable opinions that think he'd be a smart pick @ 6 overall or anyone who really thinks he's the best QB in this class.
Even if we take Murray out of the equation, I have a hard time finding guys who think Jones is better than both Haskins and Lock and would feel comfortable taking him over both those guys.
When you are looking at potential franchise QB's coming out of college, you usually see one of two things... (or both)
Either the guy had production that was hard to ignore regardless of supporting cast - which you have with Haskins - 50 TD's and 70%+ is impressive regardless of where you play. I don't want to hear about his teammates or supporting cast - he had an excellent year as a first year starter.
or...
The guy has an attribute/attributes that jump off the screen. I.e.. I think when you watch Drew Lock, you can see the arm talent on display. He has the most "live" arm in this class. And in Lock's case, he also played in the SEC and was a starter for more than a year - so, the experience and competition are there too.
Then, you have someone like Murray... who, not only produced, but also has the athletic ability and arm that will "wow" you for a guy that size. You could watch mostly any OU game and find yourself noticing Murray within a few plays.
Then, you have Daniel Jones....
The overall production isn't really impressive, so, you say... well, his teammates were poor. He was on a bad team. It's Duke. They'd have never even been on the map at all without him.
We heard this same stuff about Josh Allen - but with Josh Allen, it was that he had a huge arm. Clearly the strongest one in last years' class. So, some people were willing to toss the production and playing for WY stuff out the window.
When I read about Daniel Jones, it's always the same stuff...
"He's not a statue, he's mobile enough..."
"He has a good arm, not great or special..."
"Enough arm talent..."
I want to read something that tells me Daniel Jones is outstanding somewhere or has elite potential in some area, or can be a legitimate, upper tier NFL QB.
I don't want to keep reading the equivalent of "he's good enough.."
I think I've made this stupid joke before, but Daniel Jones is like the QB version of that AT&T commercial
"Just OK is not OK"
That's kind of how I feel about the QB position. If Jones is "good enough", that's not good enough for me and shouldn't be good enough for the Giants. Especially not when it means we're selecting him over a far superior defensive player.
Jay on the Island posted this link the other day quoting scouts on Aaron Rodgers from the 2005 predraft process. Now, I'm not saying Jones will be Aaron Rodgers or even a starting NFL qb but the same things that don't get you excited about Jones as a franchise QB sound a whole lot like what people say about Jones.
Link - ( New Window )
I just like Haskins more as a passer. I think he has a better, more advanced NFL arm and a higher likelihood of being a guy who can develop a legitimate deep ball to go with his outstanding short and mid range accuracy.
I see too much air under Jones' deep ball and he looks like he needs to really step into it to get it down the field. The ball flutters off his hands at times - and a lot of the passes he throws beyond 20 yards look like throws that faster NFL DB's will close on quicker and make plays on rather than drop into his targets hands.
Haskins has his own problems... footwork in particular. But with Haskins, I at least feel the ceiling is there to become something special. I like his throwing motion, I think he does move well inside the pocket and has a good feel for rushers (this is something Jones has struggled with from what I gather) and I've seen him take off and take 10-15 free yards when the back 7 are dropped and there's a lane.
Haskins performed in some pretty big games. He put up numbers on some quality college defenses. I think his arm is stronger than Jones' and can develop into a top flight NFL arm with good coaching.
With Jones, I don't love the release.. I see him as more of a "touch" passer than a guy who really drives it into tight windows. He pats the ball a lot in the pocket and does stuff that adds to his time getting the ball out.
I just think Haskins is a more advanced, more polished passer with a higher ceiling. I could easily be wrong on this - Lord knows I've been wrong before, but that's just how I view them.
As for Rodgers... obviously a ton of scouts whiffed on him. But I didn't see many of them ever question Rodgers' arm strength. I don't remember watching much of Rodgers @ Cal.. so I can't even really tell you what I saw back then, but I doubt anyone was worrying about him being able to sling it - most of the concerns seemed to be about his system, mechanics, size, etc.
I also wonder if Rodgers would have been the same exact guy if he had been a day 1 starter. I know Favre had virtually no interest in mentoring him and probably didn't do a whole lot for him - but Rodgers did sit for 3 full years before he became a starter. That's a long time and very out of the ordinary for a guy who wound up being as good as he is.
It wasn't until Rodgers 5th year in the NFL that he became a household name. He's sort of anomalous for reasons like that - but I get the overall point, obviously its funny to see people have said he's Joey Harrington or Kyle Boller now that we know where his career really went.
Funny enough, I actually see where they would get the Joey Harrington comp from. Rodgers wound up being far better, but I could see some of the play style similarities.
Anyway, that's just how I see things.
The bottom line for me is that all of the "good enough," and "can get the job done" talk regarding Jones doesn't excite me.
Zierlein actually used the same exact player comp for him that I used a couple months ago... Ryan Tannehill. That's who I see when I watch Jones. The only difference is that @ A&M, Tannehill was much more of a play action, rollout QB - Jones was a very shotgun-heavy, RPO-oriented QB. But I think Jones is going to have a similar NFL career... and that's closer to best case for him than what I think is more likely... which is a guy who just doesn't cut it as a starter.
That said, if we take Jones... like I've said many times, I won't be the classic "shits on Barkley because he wanted a QB" poster that we had several versions of all throughout this past season who couldn't get past not drafting a QB and wouldn't get behind Barkley as a result. I will pull for Jones from day 1 and hope he's every bit as good as Eli was.
I could see that, but I think Wentz was/is better with his legs and throws a better deep ball. There are similarities, though.
I actually don't see much Josh Allen in Jones myself - I brought Allen up mostly because two of the 3 guys in the roundtable link used him as a comp. When I compare Allen and Jones, it's more to illustrate the similar situations they were in - on less-heralded programs and lesser talent surrounding them as opposed to guys like Haskins/Murray who played with better players.
I actually like Jones more than Josh Allen, believe it or not.
First, many "draft experts" are trapped by the need to make thing simple for the lowest capable slice of the audience. Hence when Eli came out almost everyone said "he is not Payton, he is Payton lite"
My point is that conventional "wisdom" often starts with lazy comparisons that are easy to remember.
One can come up with reasons not to draft every Qb. Its a risk to draft.
Second, one thing Eli has been infuriatingly poor at (compared to say Brees or Brady) throughout his career is short passes with touch in stride. Screen passes that allow forward momentum from the get go. Slot Receivers who can get yards after the catch instead of fall down upon the catch.
That addition alone would have made Jacobs and Bradshaw and Ward incredibly more productive. Now that we have Barkley such an "addition" to the successful execution of our playbook would be more than welcome.
Third, I sure hope the guys who want to see a more analytical approach realize that QB pre game and game mental processing and preparation ( something Eli was better than average at when there was an actual NFl Ol) is the fulcrum upon which greater use of analytics is predicated.
Could it be that "game manager" is a perjorative in the old NFl or even the current NFl but not necessarily as sizeable a limitation in the emerging NFL?
The throw to Manningham, the guts of the SF championship game in 2011 and Brady's amazing throws to Moss at the very end of the 2007 SB are the legendary memories where elite human performance lifts beyond analytics...but I point out that Brady has several SB after 2007 and 2011 and his teams ability to prepare offset a decline in arm power.
The SB the Pats won since 2010 are to me the product of an elite system of preparation and execution of probabilities...not necessarily the manifestation of the NFLs best QB from an athletic point of view.
Smarts, option processing, coverage reads, repeatable motions and simple stuff done fast is increasingly a desirable QB trait.
So is recovering from awful throws, games and foot in mouth moments.
I have no idea where Jones stacks up on those dimensions and therefore is the moldable clay of the next era ( biggest mistake of too many decision makers is fighting the last war).
Id like the NYG to be watchable after several years of ugly football before I entertain critique of what our next QB does not have.
Irony at its finest.
The OL is just as important as the Qb pick.
Reducing the drain on the cap from the OL and QB positions while getting both to above NFl average performance is step one.
End of career Qbs strain that. Years of bad drafting produces an OL with some end of career FA salaries.
Belief that we are starting to get both units to average pay as a unit for above average performance starts to make the Giants more believable and watchable. IMO
Smarts, option processing, coverage reads, repeatable motions and simple stuff done fast is increasingly a desirable QB trait.
This statement captures some of the key determining factors the successful QB's who have "it" all seem to share. Especially the ones who had success early like Mayfield, Russell Wilson, Watson, etc. They are also qualities that are literally almost impossible for us as fans to decipher. Not necessarily through any faults of our own, just the reality of coaches having access to the players and an understanding of what they are being asked to do every play. Not just what the results are, which can easily be impacted by literally 100's of factors they have no control over (like their teammates doing the right thing or the wrong thing).
I also won't presume to know where Jones rates comparatively, within this class or vs. guys last year, but I don't think it's crazy to think it could be a strength. He played relatively low-error football despite an extremely challenging environment around him and elevated his team beyond where they've been in the modern bowl era.
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than Josh Allen - who was really all tools/questionable tool box.
I could see that, but I think Wentz was/is better with his legs and throws a better deep ball. There are similarities, though.
I actually don't see much Josh Allen in Jones myself - I brought Allen up mostly because two of the 3 guys in the roundtable link used him as a comp. When I compare Allen and Jones, it's more to illustrate the similar situations they were in - on less-heralded programs and lesser talent surrounding them as opposed to guys like Haskins/Murray who played with better players.
I actually like Jones more than Josh Allen, believe it or not.
Again we disagree. While Wentz may thriw a better deep ball, his open field quickness and lane picks are not on the level of Jones. Jones is not a shake n bake mobile quarterback, but the lines he picks are usually gashing ones. I have also yet to see Wentz throw a ball that Jones couldnt as well.
And Bill2 very well said.
There are guys that are just football players and I think DJ is one of those guys. I see him taking a hit and having blood on his chin and getting up to run the hurry up. Tannenhill wasnt that guy. But if he was, Miami probably would have won more games.
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
Holy shit. Can you add? 16 + 40 is 56. You must be a Seminole.
That does not put me in the "lets trust our leaders" camp.
It does say that some of the weaknesses named by the conventional non wisdom that we see about all these QBs are accurate ( lets perhaps agree that long throws are a relative weakness compared to the NFLS best throwers) are not the ones that matter compared to intangible strengths we hear about second hand.
I also point out that QBs are composites.
"He has the arm strength that reminds me of Tannehill".
"He reminds me of Eli in the pocket but a better runner is he had to."
" He does not have Brees mechanics"
" He cant do what Watson did on this play"
There is no players called TannehillManningBreesWentz Watson.
What does feel clear to me is that given the talent level of Duke football, we can only assume that Jones could be an elite game manager and leader under/after adversity.
Doesn't seem like he can throw like Marino. Montana couldn't come close to the arm of Marino or Elway or Farve. Or, or, or. Had a good career.
All this says to me is that over the last draft and this one; there have no been QBs so physically talented that one can consistently win a playoff game without putting an Ol and a DL around him.
Some guys are just there to go along for the ride... like Mark Sanchez in 2009 and 2010 with the Jets. Or either Denver QB in 2015 (Osweiler, Peyton)... in Denver's case, they won it all. The Jets got to the AFCC game in consecutive years.
In those situations, the QB's really weren't elevating their teams or teammates. They were basically told "hand it off, don't take risks throwing the ball, and take what the defense gives you"
Guys like Russell Wilson elevate the guys around them and make their teams better.
Is Daniel Jones closer to the former - or can he be the latter?
I'm not interested in an adequate QB with the 6th overall pick. I'm looking for a guy who impacts games. And I understand that won't happen right away with probably anyone other than Murray in this crop - which is fine - but again, it's a matter of ceiling for me and I don't see it with Jones.
If it's 17th that we take Jones after taking a defensive player @ 6?
That's a little more digestible for me.
So if you like Dalton, then Jones is your man.
Dalton has started over 100 NFL games with almost 2 tds for every int. On a macro level I'd sign for that sight unseen from whoever Eli's successor is. That is probably in the top 80-90 percentile of production from all first round qb outcomes.
IMO the biggest question with him is how heavily his collegiate performance needs to be weighted against the quality of players around him. Did he lack a play making gene because nobody around him could make a play? He led his talent deficient group to back to back bowl game wins, so the past 2 years he had winning records, which IMO is very different than someone like Cutler who went 4 years without a single winning record.
Of the 3 QB's ranked above Jones (1. Murray 2. Haskins 3. Lock) the write-ups are also pretty consistent with others out there. All 3 are more boom or bust but higher upside.
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4. DANIEL JONES, Duke (6-5, 222, 4.76, 1-2): Fourth-year junior with a 17-19 record in 36 starts. “There’s not many guys that have a losing record in college that are successful in the NFL,” one scout said. “John Elway. Jay Cutler was another one.” Was all set to attend Princeton when Duke, his dream destination, swooped in at the last minute. “He’s probably the most ready to play,” said another scout. “I’m a big David Cutcliffe guy and his ability to deal with quarterbacks. He was really good in the Senior Bowl practices.” Good athlete with a 33 ½-inch vertical jump and a 10-0 broad jump. “I think he’ll be a mid-level starter and you’ll be happy to have him,” said a third scout. “Pretty polished in his technique. Sees the field pretty good. He’s tough. Got a little movement.” Finished with a passer rating of 82.9, including 90.0 in 2018. “I just don’t see any elite traits,” a fourth scout said. “What makes me cautious is I don’t think he’s ideally accurate and he’s a little bit hesitant in his decision-making. He’s got the big arm but it doesn’t appear natural for him.” Wonderlic of 37. “You can tell he’s well-schooled,” said a fifth scout. “He’s a good athlete but his vision is not good. He’s not very accurate at any level. He doesn’t have good pocket feel. He reminds me of Ryan Tannehill. There’s just something missing with him. Even though he’s well-schooled he doesn’t have that play-making gene in him.” From Charlotte, N.C.
IMO the biggest question with him is how heavily his collegiate performance needs to be weighted against the quality of players around him. Did he lack a play making gene because nobody around him could make a play? He led his talent deficient group to back to back bowl game wins, so the past 2 years he had winning records, which IMO is very different than someone like Cutler who went 4 years without a single winning record.
Of the 3 QB's ranked above Jones (1. Murray 2. Haskins 3. Lock) the write-ups are also pretty consistent with others out there. All 3 are more boom or bust but higher upside.
These guys are echoing all of the stuff I keep saying...
Those two guys are capturing my perception of Jones to a "T"
They could be wrong... and not everyone is saying that, but that's exactly what I see.
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In comment 14392360 FrankieR said:
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In comment 14392340 Red Dog said:
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65 yards in the air:
Yup noodle armed.
He's not going to have time to stutter step forward like he showed in that video in a NFL pocket in order to put everything behind the throw.
I dont see that as a Stutter step to unleash a heave, I think he was timing up his weak ass receiver. Its not like he uncorked it by spinning himself into the ground. He has a timing with his receivers and he may have jad to let the route develop.
I view that throw as a guy who knows he has a pocket and a shot at a deep play. He timed things up nicely and made a great throw.
Not that I'm an expert, but that's what it looked like to me too. When a QB has to wait a moment, they generally don't stand flat footed, they keep moving, whether its a bit of "hopping" or sliding in the pocket
Those two guys are capturing my perception of Jones to a "T"
They could be wrong... and not everyone is saying that, but that's exactly what I see.
I don't think anyone disagrees with what those observations, I haven't seen anyone claim Jones has elite traits. I think where everyone differs is in the importance of how they value those traits vs. the mental/intangible side of the position. Back to one of my earlier analogies, he doesn't have the best tools but he may have a great tool box - which IMO is just as if not more important for QB's.
Cutler and Vick had tools Brady, Brees, Rivers, Romo, and both Mannings could only dream about. A lot harder to win with tools and no tool box vs. the other way around.
There were some concerns about his velocity and zip, but I don't think anyone ever questioned Peyton's accuracy. Peyton was a great college QB on an SEC team, too.
Roethlisberger was touted for his arm strength, quick release, compact throwing motion. Great arm, accurate deep ball, etc.
Ben's questions were more about his durability, not necessarily getting enough air under his deep ball (kind of the opposite issue of Jones)
There was no question that Ben was worthy of being picked early in the 1st round. Even back in '04. He was a really good QB prospect.
And sometimes elite tools do translate... Mahomes and Rodgers being two good examples.
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or a flier on Grier.
Grier in 1st?
No.
Praying all this QB chatter is to force someone else to move into top 5
They still high on Lock? He’s the only 1 at 6 I feel is somewhat justifiable
Also he showed really solid athleticism at the combine, he has the highest wonderlic of QB's in this draft, prototypical size, and possibly the best coaching, so he's got some tangible things going for him beyond the possibility that his intangibles are very strong.
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then they've finally smokescreened us all.
Praying all this QB chatter is to force someone else to move into top 5
They still high on Lock? He’s the only 1 at 6 I feel is somewhat justifiable
I think that's what it is, not hearing any differently.
Nothing new on QBs.
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His footwork is picture perfect there. Although, after Patrick Mahomes I'm not sure how important proper footwork is in today's NFL. I'm a believer it is more important to be able to throw from different platforms now. My views on what constitutes in NFL QB has changed drastically in the last ten years due to the change in the game. Would have thought Kyler Murray would have been the biggest bust fifteen years ago. He can definitely play in the NFL today, although I do worry about what he has between the ears.
You show your ass again....Daniel Jones apparently is excellent at breaking down defenses.
Just stop dude. At least you ceased posting like a High Schooler on social media.
Are you replying to the wrong post? I don't see anything criticizing Jones' defense reading in the one you replied to.
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In comment 14393362 JonC said:
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then they've finally smokescreened us all.
Praying all this QB chatter is to force someone else to move into top 5
They still high on Lock? He’s the only 1 at 6 I feel is somewhat justifiable
I think that's what it is, not hearing any differently.
Nothing new on QBs.
Thank you. Don’t think I’ve ever been so excited/interested in a draft before - Loved what I saw from Gettleman’s recent presser
The arm strength knock was debunked, so now it’s his accuracy that sucks ... I’m not going to claim Jones has laser-like precision, but it’s not a glaring weakness either. His OL/WR were awful, embarrassing to watch actually.
Look at the numbers. Where has he displayed good accuracy?
From the LOS-10 yards, his completion % was lower than any QB in this class outside of Thorson, Stidham and Jackson. (72.36%)
For comparison, Haskins was tops here @ 81.51%
From the LOS-20 yards, his accuracy was worse than any QB in this class aside from Jackson. (52.46%)
For comparison, Haskins was also tops here @ 65.35%
20 yards+ - again, worse than every QB besides Thorson, Stidham and Jackson. (44.19%)
Murray is the leader here @ ~60%
Overall accuracy, Jones is 3rd from the bottom - ahead of only Stidham and Jackson (68.85%)
Haskins tops this category at a hair under 79%
Against pressure? Jones is again near the bottom @ about 52%
Haskins leads this category @ 63%
3rd and 4th down accuracy finds Jones @ 64% - ahead of just Minshew and Stidham.
Haskins tops this category @ 81%
In Jones' college career, he completed under 60% of his passes.
None of the numbers say Daniel Jones is an accurate passer relative to his peers.
What does Jones do that Finley can't?
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Because I don't see that at all. He seems plenty accurate to me. There are other criticisms sure, but accuracy is one that I disagree with.
Look at the numbers. Where has he displayed good accuracy?
From the LOS-10 yards, his completion % was lower than any QB in this class outside of Thorson, Stidham and Jackson. (72.36%)
For comparison, Haskins was tops here @ 81.51%
From the LOS-20 yards, his accuracy was worse than any QB in this class aside from Jackson. (52.46%)
For comparison, Haskins was also tops here @ 65.35%
20 yards+ - again, worse than every QB besides Thorson, Stidham and Jackson. (44.19%)
Murray is the leader here @ ~60%
Overall accuracy, Jones is 3rd from the bottom - ahead of only Stidham and Jackson (68.85%)
Haskins tops this category at a hair under 79%
Against pressure? Jones is again near the bottom @ about 52%
Haskins leads this category @ 63%
3rd and 4th down accuracy finds Jones @ 64% - ahead of just Minshew and Stidham.
Haskins tops this category @ 81%
In Jones' college career, he completed under 60% of his passes.
None of the numbers say Daniel Jones is an accurate passer relative to his peers.
See, I knew someone was going to point to this when I brought up his accuracy. Completion percentage just doesn't tell the whole story. Especially when you consider how dreadful his receivers hands have been.
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Because I don't see that at all. He seems plenty accurate to me. There are other criticisms sure, but accuracy is one that I disagree with.
Look at the numbers. Where has he displayed good accuracy?
From the LOS-10 yards, his completion % was lower than any QB in this class outside of Thorson, Stidham and Jackson. (72.36%)
For comparison, Haskins was tops here @ 81.51%
From the LOS-20 yards, his accuracy was worse than any QB in this class aside from Jackson. (52.46%)
For comparison, Haskins was also tops here @ 65.35%
20 yards+ - again, worse than every QB besides Thorson, Stidham and Jackson. (44.19%)
Murray is the leader here @ ~60%
Overall accuracy, Jones is 3rd from the bottom - ahead of only Stidham and Jackson (68.85%)
Haskins tops this category at a hair under 79%
Against pressure? Jones is again near the bottom @ about 52%
Haskins leads this category @ 63%
3rd and 4th down accuracy finds Jones @ 64% - ahead of just Minshew and Stidham.
Haskins tops this category @ 81%
In Jones' college career, he completed under 60% of his passes.
None of the numbers say Daniel Jones is an accurate passer relative to his peers.
Are drops and having 1 of the worst graded OL accounted for ?
I heard some of the same stuff about Lamar Jackson... his completion numbers suffered because his surrounding talent sucked. That didn't change in the NFL. He's still inaccurate.
Jones is a much better passer than Jackson, but completion numbers don't always jump in the NFL just because the surrounding players are better.
If you can back up the case that he IS as accurate a passer as guys like Murray and Haskins, I'd be willing to listen. But nothing I've looked at or seen has bared that out.
What does Jones do that Finley can't?
Great question - other than Jones being more athletic, nothing.
And as a passer, I think Finley is better. Granted, I've been on the Finely bandwagon for a number of months.
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I'm actually curious as to what makes Daniel Jones a superior prospect to Ryan Finley.
What does Jones do that Finley can't?
Great question - other than Jones being more athletic, nothing.
And as a passer, I think Finley is better. Granted, I've been on the Finely bandwagon for a number of months.
What does Jones do that Finley can't?
I haven't watched Finley much so I'm not the best person to ask. Here's McGinn's write-up on him (he's ranked 5th, 1 spot behind Jones, but in a different tier being a 3-4 rd'er vs. 1-2 rd'er.
On face value he had better players around him than Jones (obviously Harmon) and his stats were better but weren't worlds apart. He played in the same conference and similarly lead his teams to bowl games, so there are certainly similarities. Jones seems a little more toolsy and he's 4 full years younger so those are at least 2 reasons I could see liking him more. If he's viewed as more system versatile I could see that being another but that's hard to judge as a fan.
I heard some of the same stuff about Lamar Jackson... his completion numbers suffered because his surrounding talent sucked. That didn't change in the NFL. He's still inaccurate.
Jones is a much better passer than Jackson, but completion numbers don't always jump in the NFL just because the surrounding players are better.
If you can back up the case that he IS as accurate a passer as guys like Murray and Haskins, I'd be willing to listen. But nothing I've looked at or seen has bared that out.
I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert but I think he's pretty accurate. I've seen him deliver deep balls on a line and connect with pressure in his face.
Is he the most accurate QB in the draft? No. The one criticism as far as his accuracy that I can get behind is that he doesn't always lead his receiver, which limits opportunities for YAC. But it is far from a deal breaker. He's still an accurate passer.
He's not my favorite QB in the draft. There are other QB's I like more than him. But I just think the knocks on his accuracy are overblown. Its that time of year where we have to find things we dislike about every QB prospect and this is one of them for me. We go through this every single year.
I recommend you do watch that Clemson-NC St game. Finley had two big gain passes dropped in that game. And I'm sure one was going to be a TD. And he was under pressure all day. But watch his poise and how he keeps his head up with the Clemson rush bearing down.
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in addition to the post above, just looked at his gamelog, he put up a similar statline to Jones against Clemson this year - which I've noted before was Jones' the single most impressive thing I've watched on him. He made numerous pro throws, took a beating, protected the football, and would have had a lead on them at halftime if his teammates weren't so awful. I honestly thought he looked like Luck on those Colt teams that almost got him killed on the field. If I get a chance today I'll go back and watch Finley's game against them.
I recommend you do watch that Clemson-NC St game. Finley had two big gain passes dropped in that game. And I'm sure one was going to be a TD. And he was under pressure all day. But watch his poise and how he keeps his head up with the Clemson rush bearing down.
I will I'll watch today - but seriously that description is exactly how I saw Jones' performance against them too.
I like QBs that have experience in both sets regardless of where they are taken. Especially one potentially going top 10.
The single most impressive thing to me about Jones vs. Clemson was that he took all those hits, with that crappy OL, and those crappy WR's dropping everything, and he somehow still didn't turn the ball over.
I liked his touch down the field on the 2 balls his WR's dropped and the back shoulder 3rd down he completed. But honestly if you were asking me to describe him I'd say a thinner, less toolsy, less mobile, version of Jones. Other than the turnovers their stats were almost exactly same, I just thought Jones tools looked more impressive, especially since he kept the game close longer.