April is the absolute certainty some posters have in their minds about said player based on watching a game or two/some YouTube clips.
I used to be like that too, but then I grew up & realized that I'm not breaking down film of these dudes 24-7-365. I remember, back in my younger years, thinking that Matt Ryan, who I watched all of 5 games max at his time at BC, was going to be a bust. I kept telling everyone who would listen. Turns out I was completely wrong, though I think he's become somewhat overrated.
RE: I’m beginning to believe guys who know a thing or two Â
about the position like Brandt, Brady Quinn, Polian and Kirwan over a couch coach like bw in dc et al..Seriously, who has the real cred?
Look, you have to form your own opinions. And other than the fact that their body types are nearly identical, Jones isn’t anywhere close to Peyton as a prospect. Well, other than the fact that neither could beat a worthwhile team (That’s more on Peyton than Jones, though.).
I remember watching Peyton at Tennessee, and it was a thing of beauty. Now, I’m not going to tell you I expected him to be all all time great, but even without elite arm strength the ball always came out with zip and were accurate. Jones does not put that same zip on the ball. Even worse, often times his ball placement is off - even on short passes - and that costs his WRs run after the catch opportunities.
McGinn polled 13 scouts, and not one put Jones as the best QB in this class. That should tell you something right there. If this guy was anywhere near Peyton, you’d think at least one of those guys would have seen it.
I see a lot of posts on here about players like we are experts and know if a player is good or not. No one knows for certain how a player will turn out. It is all projections except that the NFL guys are working with a lot more information than we have.
I can go through many drafts where there was players I liked that have bombed in the NFL and there are players I didn't like who have had hall of fame careers.
I just don't know how anyone on here can say anything with true conviction. Opinions are fine, but not to the point of slamming Gettleman and the giants for who they draft or not.
I respect gil brandts analysis on players more than most. Pat kirwan is another I like, but even they have been wrong from time to time.
I will be curious to see what Gettleman will do in this draft as he has a lot of options and the ability to move up and down the draft with the amount of picks we have.
so no one really knows how Jones will turn out. If the Giants pick him I hope these guys are correct and it's not at 6. I hope they use 6 for a defensive player.
more than any other prospect as a target for the Giants. We've all heard defense and that may very well be where we go, but it has been defense in general more than any one particular prospect.
I see a lot of posts on here about players like we are experts and know if a player is good or not. No one knows for certain how a player will turn out. It is all projections except that the NFL guys are working with a lot more information than we have.
I can go through many drafts where there was players I liked that have bombed in the NFL and there are players I didn't like who have had hall of fame careers.
I just don't know how anyone on here can say anything with true conviction. Opinions are fine, but not to the point of slamming Gettleman and the giants for who they draft or not.
I respect gil brandts analysis on players more than most. Pat kirwan is another I like, but even they have been wrong from time to time.
I will be curious to see what Gettleman will do in this draft as he has a lot of options and the ability to move up and down the draft with the amount of picks we have.
I don’t know college football, but I believe I have a pretty good handle at the pro level, yet, how many times are many of us wrong about players in the NFL?
Fans tend to talk themselves out of Quarterbacks. Drafting a QB can be a scary road to go down; any QB with a hint of a chance to be a starter is to climb boards and go higher than where the media has told us he is "supposed" to go.
Quarterbacks are a huge investment that usually doesn't reap rewards immediately, if it all.
Fans want immediate impact, I get it. The thing is that there are a lot of fans that will never want QB, and they usually pretend to be far more knowledgable than they actually are.
Pro scouts certainly aren't infallible, and it appears there isnt a consensus on Jones, but if the Giants are high enough on Jones to take him in the first, and feel they need to jump Washington, then I will put on my Giants cap, remember that I'm a novice, and hope that this is one they got right.
then they need to take him at 6.
Unless they have a "gold jacket" grade on another player available at 6.
I think this is on the right track. If they love Jones, they have to take him at 6. You don’t pass on a guy and hope he falls to 17 because the scouting community has him graded in that range. Now, if a guy like Quinnen Williams slips to you at 6, I could at least see the argument for it. But if you’ve identified the guy you want as your franchise guy, passing on him is a dangerous proposition, because uhh my boy get another shot to take him.
Mobile
Accurate
Good at line of scrimmage
Stands in pocket strong when we are taking a shot
Then he checks boxes I care about for the next qb. Jones appears to do most of these.
Just not at 6 for me.
So what happens if Jones is the guy they love, but they can’t trade back up, and he goes at 10 or 11? You just throw your hands up and go, maybe next year?
Let me ask you this: are you better off taking a QB at 6, then picking at 17 AND 37, or picking a DL at 6 (Gary, for example), and then using 17 and 37 to move up to 9 to take Jones? At that point you picked Jones three spots later, but had to use two premium picks to get him. Is that the better outcome?
then they need to take him at 6.
Unless they have a "gold jacket" grade on another player available at 6.
I think this is on the right track. If they love Jones, they have to take him at 6. You don’t pass on a guy and hope he falls to 17 because the scouting community has him graded in that range. Now, if a guy like Quinnen Williams slips to you at 6, I could at least see the argument for it. But if you’ve identified the guy you want as your franchise guy, passing on him is a dangerous proposition, because uhh my boy get another shot to take him.
Yup, but if they can work out something where they take a guy like Quinnen at 6 and trade 17 go move up and get Jones it would be even better.
Mobile
Accurate
Good at line of scrimmage
Stands in pocket strong when we are taking a shot
Then he checks boxes I care about for the next qb. Jones appears to do most of these.
Just not at 6 for me.
Well said. I agree, I like Jones more than any other QB in this draft, but I'm not passing up on the elite defensive talent to get him. I'm good with trading up in the 1st to get him (although I'd prefer dealing the 2 for Rosen).
They have to take a QB this year and they know it, just listen to how Gettleman and Mara are talking about the draft and answering these questions. They are taking a QB.
Whether any of these guys is good enough I have no idea.
They have to take a QB this year and they know it, just listen to how Gettleman and Mara are talking about the draft and answering these questions. They are taking a QB.
Whether any of these guys is good enough I have no idea.
Taking a QB doesn’t mean taking one at 6. To me it means they won’t pray on a 4h rounder and will instead invest a better pick. I think it’s more likely to be at 17 or 37. We also hear about DG loving the D talent at the top of the draft, so which is it?
There are going to be a few scenarios based on who’s taken. Someone will fall and that opens up other doors. Being sure of who the Giants are drafting right now is foolish.
ranked as the 2nd QB and 17th player with a comp to Danny White. Now he's tossing out Peyton Manning comps. Okay.
Link - ( New Window )
I noticed this too. I'm assuming he's referring to Danny White's athleticism. Danny was a great athlete. He was a punter also and very mobile but he wasn't Jones' size.
RE: RE: I’m beginning to believe guys who know a thing or two Â
about the position like Brandt, Brady Quinn, Polian and Kirwan over a couch coach like bw in dc et al..Seriously, who has the real cred?
Look, you have to form your own opinions. And other than the fact that their body types are nearly identical, Jones isn’t anywhere close to Peyton as a prospect. Well, other than the fact that neither could beat a worthwhile team (That’s more on Peyton than Jones, though.).
I remember watching Peyton at Tennessee, and it was a thing of beauty. Now, I’m not going to tell you I expected him to be all all time great, but even without elite arm strength the ball always came out with zip and were accurate. Jones does not put that same zip on the ball. Even worse, often times his ball placement is off - even on short passes - and that costs his WRs run after the catch opportunities.
McGinn polled 13 scouts, and not one put Jones as the best QB in this class. That should tell you something right there. If this guy was anywhere near Peyton, you’d think at least one of those guys would have seen it.
Forming your own opinions is fine, but when you convey them with absolutisms and act as if youre on the same level as professional scouts when it comes to knowledge and information - you sound like an asshole.
as much as it's reported is Cutliffe. Someone, please convince me that I'm wrong.
Who’s “they”? The Giants? The Giants didn’t write the article posted so I’m not sure what “they” have to do with anything. There has been several postings later with links explaining why each individual likes Jones. If you’re not reading them it’s because you don’t want to. Unless you think all of these guys are lying and they all only like him because of Cutliffe. But again, if that’s what you’re taking away from these articles it’s because that’s what you want to take away.
When you watch him, especially at the beginning of games, he looks like an NFL QB. THe way he sets up, goes through his progressions, and his decision making.
The problem is that he often could just not move the offense. So is that all the porous line and shaky receivers? Could be. But at the same time, he has never shown that he can consistently move an offense.
When you watch him, especially at the beginning of games, he looks like an NFL QB. THe way he sets up, goes through his progressions, and his decision making.
The problem is that he often could just not move the offense. So is that all the porous line and shaky receivers? Could be. But at the same time, he has never shown that he can consistently move an offense.
How is he supposed to move the offense when WRs are literally bouncing balls off their helmets and the OL can’t block for any extended period of time?
I don’t think people understand just how atrocious the offense surrounding him was - it’s truly remarkable Duke was even ranked. His WRs weren’t “shaky”, they were among the nations leaders in drops and Jones lost more “air yards” than any QB in the country. They were pathetic.
RE: RE: RE: If the Giants think Jone could be the guy Â
then they need to take him at 6.
Unless they have a "gold jacket" grade on another player available at 6.
I think this is on the right track. If they love Jones, they have to take him at 6. You don’t pass on a guy and hope he falls to 17 because the scouting community has him graded in that range. Now, if a guy like Quinnen Williams slips to you at 6, I could at least see the argument for it. But if you’ve identified the guy you want as your franchise guy, passing on him is a dangerous proposition, because uhh my boy get another shot to take him.
Yup, but if they can work out something where they take a guy like Quinnen at 6 and trade 17 go move up and get Jones it would be even better.
It wouldn't be better at all.
A) you've risked losing your next franchise QB by hoping you can trade up for him
B) instead of getting 3 excellent players at 6/17/37, you get 2.
---------
Again, I'm very surprised people are going so far off the logic rails on this.
RE: I’m beginning to believe guys who know a thing or two Â
about the position like Brandt, Brady Quinn, Polian and Kirwan over a couch coach like bw in dc et al..Seriously, who has the real cred?
I respect Brandt, but his assessment of QBs can be uneven. He thought Sam Bradford was the best QB prospect since Manning. He thought Alex Smith was a way better prospect than Aaron Rodgers.
RE: RE: I’m beginning to believe guys who know a thing or two Â
about the position like Brandt, Brady Quinn, Polian and Kirwan over a couch coach like bw in dc et al..Seriously, who has the real cred?
I respect Brandt, but his assessment of QBs can be uneven. He thought Sam Bradford was the best QB prospect since Manning. He thought Alex Smith was a way better prospect than Aaron Rodgers.
Yup, he and others are fallible. Just saying they generally know more than we do, perhaps much more
But if guys like Brandt and others are this high on him then I'd be ok with him being the pick....at 17.
Rhetorical?
Why is why I’ve been saying if we want him, we are taking him at 6.
Quote:
about the position like Brandt, Brady Quinn, Polian and Kirwan over a couch coach like bw in dc et al..Seriously, who has the real cred?
Rhetorical?
Not aimed at you. Just bw Central in particular..:)
Quote:
Jones will be long gone by 17.
Why is why I’ve been saying if we want him, we are taking him at 6.
Agreed. You don’t think this place would implode, do you?
Quote:
In comment 14394604 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Jones will be long gone by 17.
Why is why I’ve been saying if we want him, we are taking him at 6.
Agreed. You don’t think this place would implode, do you?
Honestly, who cares. No one has any clue, including myself. I’ll just be happy they have enough conviction on a QB that they’re taking him that high.
Hi Josh! :)
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In comment 14394605 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 14394604 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Jones will be long gone by 17.
Why is why I’ve been saying if we want him, we are taking him at 6.
Agreed. You don’t think this place would implode, do you?
Honestly, who cares. No one has any clue, including myself. I’ll just be happy they have enough conviction on a QB that they’re taking him that high.
It’s really that simple, isn’t it?
I used to be like that too, but then I grew up & realized that I'm not breaking down film of these dudes 24-7-365. I remember, back in my younger years, thinking that Matt Ryan, who I watched all of 5 games max at his time at BC, was going to be a bust. I kept telling everyone who would listen. Turns out I was completely wrong, though I think he's become somewhat overrated.
Look, you have to form your own opinions. And other than the fact that their body types are nearly identical, Jones isn’t anywhere close to Peyton as a prospect. Well, other than the fact that neither could beat a worthwhile team (That’s more on Peyton than Jones, though.).
I remember watching Peyton at Tennessee, and it was a thing of beauty. Now, I’m not going to tell you I expected him to be all all time great, but even without elite arm strength the ball always came out with zip and were accurate. Jones does not put that same zip on the ball. Even worse, often times his ball placement is off - even on short passes - and that costs his WRs run after the catch opportunities.
McGinn polled 13 scouts, and not one put Jones as the best QB in this class. That should tell you something right there. If this guy was anywhere near Peyton, you’d think at least one of those guys would have seen it.
Link - ( New Window )
I can go through many drafts where there was players I liked that have bombed in the NFL and there are players I didn't like who have had hall of fame careers.
I just don't know how anyone on here can say anything with true conviction. Opinions are fine, but not to the point of slamming Gettleman and the giants for who they draft or not.
I respect gil brandts analysis on players more than most. Pat kirwan is another I like, but even they have been wrong from time to time.
I will be curious to see what Gettleman will do in this draft as he has a lot of options and the ability to move up and down the draft with the amount of picks we have.
Unless they have a "gold jacket" grade on another player available at 6.
I can go through many drafts where there was players I liked that have bombed in the NFL and there are players I didn't like who have had hall of fame careers.
I just don't know how anyone on here can say anything with true conviction. Opinions are fine, but not to the point of slamming Gettleman and the giants for who they draft or not.
I respect gil brandts analysis on players more than most. Pat kirwan is another I like, but even they have been wrong from time to time.
I will be curious to see what Gettleman will do in this draft as he has a lot of options and the ability to move up and down the draft with the amount of picks we have.
I don’t know college football, but I believe I have a pretty good handle at the pro level, yet, how many times are many of us wrong about players in the NFL?
Fans tend to talk themselves out of Quarterbacks. Drafting a QB can be a scary road to go down; any QB with a hint of a chance to be a starter is to climb boards and go higher than where the media has told us he is "supposed" to go.
Quarterbacks are a huge investment that usually doesn't reap rewards immediately, if it all.
Fans want immediate impact, I get it. The thing is that there are a lot of fans that will never want QB, and they usually pretend to be far more knowledgable than they actually are.
Pro scouts certainly aren't infallible, and it appears there isnt a consensus on Jones, but if the Giants are high enough on Jones to take him in the first, and feel they need to jump Washington, then I will put on my Giants cap, remember that I'm a novice, and hope that this is one they got right.
Accurate
Good at line of scrimmage
Stands in pocket strong when we are taking a shot
Then he checks boxes I care about for the next qb. Jones appears to do most of these.
Just not at 6 for me.
Unless they have a "gold jacket" grade on another player available at 6.
I think this is on the right track. If they love Jones, they have to take him at 6. You don’t pass on a guy and hope he falls to 17 because the scouting community has him graded in that range. Now, if a guy like Quinnen Williams slips to you at 6, I could at least see the argument for it. But if you’ve identified the guy you want as your franchise guy, passing on him is a dangerous proposition, because uhh my boy get another shot to take him.
Accurate
Good at line of scrimmage
Stands in pocket strong when we are taking a shot
Then he checks boxes I care about for the next qb. Jones appears to do most of these.
Just not at 6 for me.
So what happens if Jones is the guy they love, but they can’t trade back up, and he goes at 10 or 11? You just throw your hands up and go, maybe next year?
Let me ask you this: are you better off taking a QB at 6, then picking at 17 AND 37, or picking a DL at 6 (Gary, for example), and then using 17 and 37 to move up to 9 to take Jones? At that point you picked Jones three spots later, but had to use two premium picks to get him. Is that the better outcome?
I’ve said I agree with you. The only thing I said was at least I could see the argument for it. But I would still take my franchise QB at 6.
Quote:
then they need to take him at 6.
Unless they have a "gold jacket" grade on another player available at 6.
I think this is on the right track. If they love Jones, they have to take him at 6. You don’t pass on a guy and hope he falls to 17 because the scouting community has him graded in that range. Now, if a guy like Quinnen Williams slips to you at 6, I could at least see the argument for it. But if you’ve identified the guy you want as your franchise guy, passing on him is a dangerous proposition, because uhh my boy get another shot to take him.
Yup, but if they can work out something where they take a guy like Quinnen at 6 and trade 17 go move up and get Jones it would be even better.
Accurate
Good at line of scrimmage
Stands in pocket strong when we are taking a shot
Then he checks boxes I care about for the next qb. Jones appears to do most of these.
Just not at 6 for me.
Well said. I agree, I like Jones more than any other QB in this draft, but I'm not passing up on the elite defensive talent to get him. I'm good with trading up in the 1st to get him (although I'd prefer dealing the 2 for Rosen).
But if guys like Brandt and others are this high on him then I'd be ok with him being the pick....at 17.
How many stinker of a game has Eli had over his career. Pretty risky business to make conclusions on one game.
Nowhere is Jones anything close to a prospect as Peyton was. Jones also has much more mobility.
Whether any of these guys is good enough I have no idea.
Well I saw his thumb nail, NO THANKS!
Whether any of these guys is good enough I have no idea.
Taking a QB doesn’t mean taking one at 6. To me it means they won’t pray on a 4h rounder and will instead invest a better pick. I think it’s more likely to be at 17 or 37. We also hear about DG loving the D talent at the top of the draft, so which is it?
There are going to be a few scenarios based on who’s taken. Someone will fall and that opens up other doors. Being sure of who the Giants are drafting right now is foolish.
Link - ( New Window )
I noticed this too. I'm assuming he's referring to Danny White's athleticism. Danny was a great athlete. He was a punter also and very mobile but he wasn't Jones' size.
Quote:
about the position like Brandt, Brady Quinn, Polian and Kirwan over a couch coach like bw in dc et al..Seriously, who has the real cred?
Look, you have to form your own opinions. And other than the fact that their body types are nearly identical, Jones isn’t anywhere close to Peyton as a prospect. Well, other than the fact that neither could beat a worthwhile team (That’s more on Peyton than Jones, though.).
I remember watching Peyton at Tennessee, and it was a thing of beauty. Now, I’m not going to tell you I expected him to be all all time great, but even without elite arm strength the ball always came out with zip and were accurate. Jones does not put that same zip on the ball. Even worse, often times his ball placement is off - even on short passes - and that costs his WRs run after the catch opportunities.
McGinn polled 13 scouts, and not one put Jones as the best QB in this class. That should tell you something right there. If this guy was anywhere near Peyton, you’d think at least one of those guys would have seen it.
Forming your own opinions is fine, but when you convey them with absolutisms and act as if youre on the same level as professional scouts when it comes to knowledge and information - you sound like an asshole.
Who’s “they”? The Giants? The Giants didn’t write the article posted so I’m not sure what “they” have to do with anything. There has been several postings later with links explaining why each individual likes Jones. If you’re not reading them it’s because you don’t want to. Unless you think all of these guys are lying and they all only like him because of Cutliffe. But again, if that’s what you’re taking away from these articles it’s because that’s what you want to take away.
The problem is that he often could just not move the offense. So is that all the porous line and shaky receivers? Could be. But at the same time, he has never shown that he can consistently move an offense.
The problem is that he often could just not move the offense. So is that all the porous line and shaky receivers? Could be. But at the same time, he has never shown that he can consistently move an offense.
How is he supposed to move the offense when WRs are literally bouncing balls off their helmets and the OL can’t block for any extended period of time?
I don’t think people understand just how atrocious the offense surrounding him was - it’s truly remarkable Duke was even ranked. His WRs weren’t “shaky”, they were among the nations leaders in drops and Jones lost more “air yards” than any QB in the country. They were pathetic.
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In comment 14394632 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
then they need to take him at 6.
Unless they have a "gold jacket" grade on another player available at 6.
I think this is on the right track. If they love Jones, they have to take him at 6. You don’t pass on a guy and hope he falls to 17 because the scouting community has him graded in that range. Now, if a guy like Quinnen Williams slips to you at 6, I could at least see the argument for it. But if you’ve identified the guy you want as your franchise guy, passing on him is a dangerous proposition, because uhh my boy get another shot to take him.
Yup, but if they can work out something where they take a guy like Quinnen at 6 and trade 17 go move up and get Jones it would be even better.
It wouldn't be better at all.
A) you've risked losing your next franchise QB by hoping you can trade up for him
B) instead of getting 3 excellent players at 6/17/37, you get 2.
---------
Again, I'm very surprised people are going so far off the logic rails on this.
I respect Brandt, but his assessment of QBs can be uneven. He thought Sam Bradford was the best QB prospect since Manning. He thought Alex Smith was a way better prospect than Aaron Rodgers.
Quote:
about the position like Brandt, Brady Quinn, Polian and Kirwan over a couch coach like bw in dc et al..Seriously, who has the real cred?
I respect Brandt, but his assessment of QBs can be uneven. He thought Sam Bradford was the best QB prospect since Manning. He thought Alex Smith was a way better prospect than Aaron Rodgers.
Yup, he and others are fallible. Just saying they generally know more than we do, perhaps much more