PFT: Will Giants skip QB at 6 and take one at 16

with their 2nd first round pick, it doesn’t work. I read the Browns as an example of this. Would prefer more of a conviction.

that I happen to agree with. But, as I’ve said, to the annoyance of some, if Shurmur likey, I likey. :)

dude-be it Jones, Lock, Haskins, or whoever-we'd take him @ 6. We'll know in 5 days.

In comment 14395864 Sean said:

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with their 2nd first round pick, it doesn’t work. I read the Browns as an example of this. Would prefer more of a conviction.

Just curious, though. How many teams have had two 1st Round picks and have taken a QB with their second? It's probably a pretty small sample size.

If Daniel Jones or the other QBs is in your 20-25 range on your board you do not take him at 6.

People need to stop sounding like parrots with this “conviction” and “go get him” nonsense.

If Giants have Jones or Lock with a top 10 grade then they will be the pick at 6.

I understand the logic, how good is a QB that 5 QB needy team pass over?


Jones does not have the highest ceiling...he might be 5th in this catagory.

But he might have the highest floor.

He is safe, makes smart choices....he can win in the NFL.

Nick Foles to Matt Ryan....so in right system, strong team...can win a Super Bowl.

In comment 14395882 Sammo85 said:

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If Daniel Jones or the other QBs is in your 20-25 range on your board you do not take him at 6. People need to stop sounding like parrots with this “conviction” and “go get him” nonsense. If Giants have Jones or Lock with a top 10 grade then they will be the pick at 6.

Sammo, you’re one of my faves on here and I wish you would post more. The board could certainly use it. I am one of those conviction guys. I don’t know Jones or Haskins from my next door neighbor, but if they truly feel he’s the future of the franchise, I don’t see them passing at 6, imo

In comment 14395884 George from PA said:

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I understand the logic, how good is a QB that 5 QB needy team pass over? Jones does not have the highest ceiling...he might be 5th in this catagory. But he might have the highest floor. He is safe, makes smart choices....he can win in the NFL. Nick Foles to Matt Ryan....so in right system, strong team...can win a Super Bowl.

Seriously? Now we're comparing Matt Ryan to Nick Foles? Is that what this board has come to? Why do people here consistently underrate players on other teams? Listen, Matt Ryan is great. Nick Foles is not great. A QB of Ryan's capability is worth the top pick in the draft. If we knew one of these guys was Matt Ryan we would have to trade up to get him. jeeeeezusss.

starting caliber qb's who you can win with.

Same to you.

Again, to me the mistake teams make is not trusting their board. Having a conviction on a QB means you have them with a high 1st round grade. Unless they have one QB so far heads and shoulders ahead of others there’s no need to rush a pick at 6 or even 17 for that matter.

Too many teams reach on picks based on need or assign “bias” grades for a position like a QB or reach on guys they just like for small nuanced reasons.

In comment 14395898 Sammo85 said:

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Same to you. Again, to me the mistake teams make is not trusting their board. Having a conviction on a QB means you have them with a high 1st round grade. Unless they have one QB so far heads and shoulders ahead of others there’s no need to rush a pick at 6 or even 17 for that matter. Too many teams reach on picks based on need or assign “bias” grades for a position like a QB or reach on guys they just like for small nuanced reasons.

Of course positional value matters. Of course QBs should be graded differently than other positions. A QB you project to be a star is the top player in the draft - period. If you need a QB you take him before all others.

1. Take the QB at 6 & go BPA at 17

2. Go BPA at 6 & pay a significant price to move from 17 to the 9-12 range to draft a QB?

Which is more preferable? Gettleman said that if they have a 1st round grade on QB, “they love him.” Add in the quotes from Mara & Gettleman about the need to address QB. Even Eli said he expects a QB to be drafted.

I just don’t see Gettleman & company sitting on their hands hoping Jones or any QB falling to 17. So, ask yourself if you are good with a trade up if not taken at 6.

In comment 14395901 Sean said:

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1. Take the QB at 6 & go BPA at 17 2. Go BPA at 6 & pay a significant price to move from 17 to the 9-12 range to draft a QB? Which is more preferable? Gettleman said that if they have a 1st round grade on QB, “they love him.” Add in the quotes from Mara & Gettleman about the need to address QB. Even Eli said he expects a QB to be drafted. I just don’t see Gettleman & company sitting on their hands hoping Jones or any QB falling to 17. So, ask yourself if you are good with a trade up if not taken at 6.

If they think Jones is a future star, then they can't fuck around. Get him at 6 - if he is there. If they think he is a place holder, system qb, then they shouldn't be thinking of drafting him in the first round.

To clarify

I view Jones ranges

Nick Foles on the low end

Matt Ryan on the high end

The thinking that if he's good enough at 17, you take him at 6 is simply wrong.

Draft the best players you can and let the chip fall where they may.

In comment 14395906 George from PA said:

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To clarify I view Jones ranges Nick Foles on the low end Matt Ryan on the high end

I see, ok makes sense. Except yesterday we heard Gil Brandt compare him to Peyton Manning. And if we are comparing him to Ryan, then he is at least as good as Eli Manning, imo, because Ryan as a QB talent is at least as good as Eli Manning.

Or trade up to 8-10 or whatever, they should just take him at 6. You are wasting a ton of draft capital to trade up and get a guy when you could have just had him in the first place.

QB at 1.6 plus BPA at 17 + 37 makes a lot more sense than BPA at 6 and trading additional assets to get back into the top 10.

In comment 14395911 Oscar said:

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Or trade up to 8-10 or whatever, they should just take him at 6. You are wasting a ton of draft capital to trade up and get a guy when you could have just had him in the first place. QB at 1.6 plus BPA at 17 + 37 makes a lot more sense than BPA at 6 and trading additional assets to get back into the top 10.

This is exactly my thinking. I think too many people assume they can just take the QB at 17, I just don’t see it.

In comment 14395901 Sean said:

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1. Take the QB at 6 & go BPA at 17 2. Go BPA at 6 & pay a significant price to move from 17 to the 9-12 range to draft a QB? Which is more preferable? Gettleman said that if they have a 1st round grade on QB, “they love him.” Add in the quotes from Mara & Gettleman about the need to address QB. Even Eli said he expects a QB to be drafted. I just don’t see Gettleman & company sitting on their hands hoping Jones or any QB falling to 17. So, ask yourself if you are good with a trade up if not taken at 6.

Another option is not drafting a QB this year at all. I'm warming up to that idea more and more because the defense has SO many holes to fix it's not even funny.

In comment 14395909 JohnB said:

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The thinking that if he's good enough at 17, you take him at 6 is simply wrong. Draft the best players you can and let the chip fall where they may.

Then you will never draft a star QB. You have to be aggressive to get the QB you want. How do you feel now that the Giants weren't more aggressive going after Patrick Mahomes. Mahomes went 10th. The Giants didn't have him that high. Do you wish they did?

In comment 14395913 JohnB said:

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In comment 14395901 Sean said: Quote: 1. Take the QB at 6 & go BPA at 17 2. Go BPA at 6 & pay a significant price to move from 17 to the 9-12 range to draft a QB? Which is more preferable? Gettleman said that if they have a 1st round grade on QB, “they love him.” Add in the quotes from Mara & Gettleman about the need to address QB. Even Eli said he expects a QB to be drafted. I just don’t see Gettleman & company sitting on their hands hoping Jones or any QB falling to 17. So, ask yourself if you are good with a trade up if not taken at 6. Another option is not drafting a QB this year at all. I'm warming up to that idea more and more because the defense has SO many holes to fix it's not even funny.

if they take Jones 6th the Giants are telling you that they see him as some kind of star. In three years if he is a star you won't care that they overdrafted him by 10 slots this year. If he isn't a star then DG and PS lose their jobs.

But then I watched the 2018 draft last night. Ravens traded back and took a TE with their first round pick. They then traded up to #32 and took their future QB. There was only like 6 slots between the picks. The Ravens could have taken the QB instead of the TE, but they didn't (The NFL gurus all thought Saints were trading up to 16 to land the QB, so at twenty something the value was there). The Ravens know how to draft.

The more teams will try to jump the Giants

I can see taking a QB at 6...if the bluechip defensive players are gone.

I understand taking their guy at QB, but the Giants must maximize their value as well.

In comment 14395921 FranchiseQB said:

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if they take Jones 6th the Giants are telling you that they see him as some kind of star. In three years if he is a star you won't care that they overdrafted him by 10 slots this year. If he isn't a star then DG and PS lose their jobs.

I agree that the Giants will obviously be higher on Jones than many assumed. Of course there will be many here who will ignore that fact and criticize the Giants for "reaching for a QB that would likely be there at 17." Of course the truth is that there is nearly no chance that Jones is on the board at 17. Washington is surely going QB at 15 and with this news leaking they might try to trade up higher to prevent the Giants from getting one.

In comment 14395906 George from PA said:

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To clarify I view Jones ranges Nick Foles on the low end Matt Ryan on the high end

We’re not getting another Eli anytime soon, if ever, whether it might have been last year or now, imo. That said, I will take that range for sure. You can certainly win with that with strength in other areas. And Barkley..

is no.

In comment 14395941 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 14395906 George from PA said: Quote: To clarify I view Jones ranges Nick Foles on the low end Matt Ryan on the high end We’re not getting another Eli anytime soon, if ever, whether it might have been last year or now, imo. That said, I will take that range for sure. You can certainly win with that with strength in other areas. And Barkley..

You're right but every time I watch Jones play I see alot of Eli Manning at Ole Miss just more athletic obviously.

...

read Paul Schwartz's story today "Why the Giants May Not Pick QB at 6"

Schwartz describes says he was described as a young Eli Manning without the arm talent

them taking the BPA whatever position that may be.

In comment 14395890 FranchiseQB said:

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In comment 14395884 George from PA said: Quote: I understand the logic, how good is a QB that 5 QB needy team pass over? Jones does not have the highest ceiling...he might be 5th in this catagory. But he might have the highest floor. He is safe, makes smart choices....he can win in the NFL. Nick Foles to Matt Ryan....so in right system, strong team...can win a Super Bowl. Seriously? Now we're comparing Matt Ryan to Nick Foles? Is that what this board has come to? Why do people here consistently underrate players on other teams? Listen, Matt Ryan is great. Nick Foles is not great. A QB of Ryan's capability is worth the top pick in the draft. If we knew one of these guys was Matt Ryan we would have to trade up to get him. jeeeeezusss.

I don't think underrating matt ryan is unique to bbi. He is universally underrated/hated on IMO

In comment 14395949 gidiefor said:

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read Paul Schwartz's story today "Why the Giants May Not Pick QB at 6" Schwartz describes says he was described as a young Eli Manning without the arm talent

Polian, Brady Quinn, Kirwan, would disagree re arm talent..If leaked, smokescreen? Who knows?

In comment 14395884 George from PA said:

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I understand the logic, how good is a QB that 5 QB needy team pass over? Jones does not have the highest ceiling...he might be 5th in this catagory. But he might have the highest floor. He is safe, makes smart choices....he can win in the NFL. Nick Foles to Matt Ryan....so in right system, strong team...can win a Super Bowl.

I agree with this logic 100%

Klaatu said:

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Just curious, though. How many teams have had two 1st Round picks and have taken a QB with their second? It's probably a pretty small sample size.

The first example that comes to mind is Cleveland drafting Justin Gilbert at #8, and Johnny Manziel at #22. That's assuming the 2014 Browns count as a "team", and Manziel counts as a "QB".

The 2010 Broncos are an interesting case: Demaryius Thomas at #22, followed just three picks later by Tim Tebow. In a way, they were right about both players: After two modest seasons, Thomas proved himself worthy of the 22nd pick. Tebow, well... didn't.

Browns again in 2007: Joe Thomas at #3, and Brady Quinn at #22. IIRC, they traded up for that pick because Quinn had fallen farther than they expected. Not far enough, as it turned out. ;o)

In DC, the first round of the 2005 Draft will live in infamy. The Redskins took Carlos Rogers at #9 and Jason Campbell at #25, missing out on a differently-spelled Rodgers by one pick. Close call there for the NFC East. Rogers had a nice career, aside from his confessed inability to cover option patterns for San Francisco in the NFC Title Game. Rodgers is... Rodgers.

...we are trading for Josh Rosen with the Giants swapping their First Round Pick at 17 for the Cards Second Round Pick at 33. That is roughly equivalent to the Giants sending the Cards roughly a 20th pick in the Second Round.

Buffalo took Lee Evans at #13 (two picks after Roethlesberger went to Pittsburgh) then settled for J.P. Losman at #22.

Baltimore took Terrell Suggs at #10, followed by Kyle Boller at #19.

The emerging pattern is that all of these QBs basically sucked. Maybe conviction really should matter more than value.

The Jets had three first-round picks in 2000. They waited until the last one to take a QB, after picking Shaun Ellis and John Abraham. Pennington was a nice player, and pretty easy to root for considering the colors he wore; but the concerns about fragility and arm strength were borne out by the way his career wound up.

You either take him at 6 or trade up from 17.

That's quite a few more than I'd thought there'd be.

What I’ve written here about a dozen times already.

He has repeatedly talked about BPA and not reaching for position, I believe he even said something to the effect that QB wasn't "a special case".

I think this team needs a QB, but I don't expect DG to reach for one, nor would I want him to.

Imv the highest player on their board at 6 is likely to be a defender, or perhaps Jonah depending how things fall.

This "conviction" on a QB at 6 stuff just doesn't appear to be DGs style.

Giants38 said:

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What I’ve written here about a dozen times already.

You and about a hundred other posters. Yet they honored your uniquely eloquent and insightful prose by plagiarizing it. Well done.

evades

In comment 14395949 gidiefor said:

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read Paul Schwartz's story today "Why the Giants May Not Pick QB at 6" Schwartz describes says he was described as a young Eli Manning without the arm talent

It’s gonna be awesome when the Giants select a QB because:
1) He looks like Eli;
2) Was coached by Eli’s coach;
3) Has a good relationship with Eli to the point that...
4) Eli is not threatened by him; and
5) Like his background and supposed “mental makeup”.

When introducing Jones after Round 1, it won’t be that he can make all the throws or anything like that. No, it’s that he’s a solid dude who Eli will teach.

If Jones is the guy, get ready for that garbage.

In comment 14395997 Big Blue Blogger said:

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Giants38 said: Quote: What I’ve written here about a dozen times already. You and about a hundred other posters. Yet they honored your uniquely eloquent and insightful prose by plagiarizing it. Well done.

Thanks man!

if you like a QB take him at 6. Look if the best player on the board is a big pass rusher than take him and at 17 if the PBA is a QB you take him there. Its not like there has never been good QBs taken in the mid first round and who is to say at 6 you are correct about a QB just look at Ryan Leaf and so on. Take the PBA at 6. Drew Brees was a taken at 32. If the Giants have 4 guys at QB all rated the same than wait.

In comment 14395864 Sean said:

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with their 2nd first round pick, it doesn’t work. I read the Browns as an example of this. Would prefer more of a conviction.

That's just it. How do they really feel about this group. How many do they have tagged as a "Franchise Quarterback".

In comment 14396002 Giants38 said:

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In comment 14395949 gidiefor said: Quote: read Paul Schwartz's story today "Why the Giants May Not Pick QB at 6" Schwartz describes says he was described as a young Eli Manning without the arm talent It’s gonna be awesome when the Giants select a QB because: 1) He looks like Eli; 2) Was coached by Eli’s coach; 3) Has a good relationship with Eli to the point that... 4) Eli is not threatened by him; and 5) Like his background and supposed “mental makeup”. When introducing Jones after Round 1, it won’t be that he can make all the throws or anything like that. No, it’s that he’s a solid dude who Eli will teach. If Jones is the guy, get ready for that garbage.

If #4 is true then I don't like Jones. I WANT Eli to be threatened! If Eli is threatened then that means the talent level is very good!

Eli knows his time is about to end either way.

that they’ll have to take him at #6. They won’t risk missing out on the QB that they feel is the guy. Jones at #6 is a very strong possibility and so is Haskins or Lock for that matter. There’s too many other teams lurking to risk missing out on the guy you covet. Although I was convinced that the Giants would take a BPA Defender at #6 before, I’m not sold on that anymore. I’m preparing myself for a QB now at #6.

I’m not a talent evaluator, but from a laymen’s eyes I don’t see greatness in any one of them. Giants know better then I and have done extensive research on them. It’s been proven that it’s such an inexact science, drafting a QB. If Jones is the guy, he could turn out to be a very good QB, the the right system.