Really good article from The Ringer today. I know Gettleman has been trashed by many in the media for not having a cohesive plan in place. But maybe he does, even if most don't agree with it. The Ringer - ( New Window )
LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
I think that's part of the issue they had with drafting a RB at #2 overall last yr in what was considered by many to be one of the best QB classes in a long time.
If it were OL + DL + RB = championship then that move would have made more sense. But as the article stated, if he really didn't believe in any of the QB's then passing on them is the smart move.
My personal biggest concern (and take this with a grain of salt) is that Gettleman really believed that "Eli had years left" and could still win a championship. If he really believed that (and made the decision at #2 b/c of it) then his QB evaluation skills are scary.
Let's cut to the chase.
This is just thread #3,167 from Josh lamenting not drafting a QB.
you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
Rams (2nd most rushing TD, 8th most pass TD) vs. Patriots (4th most rushing TD, 11th most pass TD)
Both teams with 1st round RB on the roster too. Good night.
you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
The difference is i’m Using data rather than cliches and a fantasy-football mindset.
Top 5 rushing teams seem to still somehow make the SB every year ... it’s almost like it’s still beneficial. How’d teams get so far with Bortles/Keenum/Foles in 2017? Why’d 2 top 5 rushing teams with 1st round RBs make this SB this past season?
RE: Anyone with any common sense can see DG has a plan and what it is Â
Especially since he's said it over and over again.
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
He talks a good story but actions speak louder than words.
Our oline was ranked 15th against the run in 2017 .... 29th in 2018.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017
Our two best run stoppers Collins and Snacks are no longer on the team
Our two best pass rushers JPP and Vernon are no longer on the team.
Culture doesn't win games. Michael Irvin stabbed a teammate in the neck but that team won 3 super bowls in four years.
LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
Rams (2nd most rushing TD, 8th most pass TD) vs. Patriots (4th most rushing TD, 11th most pass TD)
Both teams with 1st round RB on the roster too. Good night.
You didn’t answer the question so I’ll do it for you:
2018: Rams 1.34:1, Pats 1.61:1
2017: Pats 2:1 passing td to rushing ratio, Eagles 4.2:1
2016: Falcons: 2:1, Pats 1.68:1
2015: Panthers: 1.84: Pats 2.56:1
2014: Pats 2.61:1, Seahawks 1:1
So the champions had
1.61:1
4.2:1
1.68:1
2.56:1
2.61:1
3 of the last 5 champions passed for more than a full TD more a game than they ran for. The Eagles had a grand total of 9 rushing TDS. Just spitting out rushing total yardage ignores the context behind the stats.
you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
The difference is i’m Using data rather than cliches and a fantasy-football mindset.
Top 5 rushing teams seem to still somehow make the SB every year ... it’s almost like it’s still beneficial. How’d teams get so far with Bortles/Keenum/Foles in 2017? Why’d 2 top 5 rushing teams with 1st round RBs make this SB this past season?
The only data your using is total rushing yards. That’s box score scouting.
RE: RE: Anyone with any common sense can see DG has a plan and what it is Â
Especially since he's said it over and over again.
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
He talks a good story but actions speak louder than words.
Our oline was ranked 15th against the run in 2017 .... 29th in 2018.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017
Our two best run stoppers Collins and Snacks are no longer on the team
Our two best pass rushers JPP and Vernon are no longer on the team.
Culture doesn't win games. Michael Irvin stabbed a teammate in the neck but that team won 3 super bowls in four years.
Let’s hear some solutions. We get it, you think the team sucks and want them to tank every year. Who would you draft at 6/17? Do you like any of the QB’s this year?
I love Murray. Jones I don't hate, but I certainly liked last years crop of QB's the giants had to pick from better than him.
Britt, the 2005-2011 teams had a terrific pass rush and a franchise QB. They also had the worst running game in the league in the regular season in 2011 and still made the playoffs because Eli stood on his head.
Running the ball is important, but it's a lot easier to find running backs than it is pass rushers or franchise QB's. Their plan is dead in the water without a pass rush and a QB.
If they can't get Murray I would load up on defense this year, take 2 pass rushers 1st 2 picks or a pass rusher and a corner. Then get QB in 2020.
Saquon is an awesome talent but each year the Giants suck and without a QB and a pass rush they will certainly continue to suck until they fill those holes his prime is being wasted. The way the Giants are going by the time they are good again Barkley will be wanting mega bucks and then his value significantly diminishes when he's making huge money. The Giants will have hit the lottery if his prime lasts more than 5 years. I fear a coach like Shurmur who will be fired if the Giants suck in 2019 running Barkley into the ground and shortening his shelf life even more.
I really have no idea why people expect the Giants to be even decent in 2019. People (and the GM) keep talking about culture. The Giants dont have a culture problem. They have a "one of the worst rosters talent wise in the entire league" problem. The most important positions on the field the Giants have below average talent, and that might be putting it kindly.
I was for trading Saquon because I think this team is further away from contending than all but one or two other teams in the league. I have zero interest in paying a running back huge money. I have a hard time seeing this team as a true contender until they get a franchise QB.
I want Murray or Josh Allen with the 1st pick. Then defense at 17.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
You realize a big part of beating the Patriots in both Superbowls was keeping their offense off the field with long, sustained drives right? Running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer played a huge part in winning both those games.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
You realize a big part of beating the Patriots in both Superbowls was keeping their offense off the field with long, sustained drives right? Running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer played a huge part in winning both those games.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
You’re taking one game though. Each game is going to have its own game plan and game flow based on your strengths.
In 46 they passed the ball 41 times to 19 runs. They weren’t a good rushing team and got their on the strength of their passing game.
In 42 they ran the ball in the postseason:
22 times for 69
33 for 154
14 for 28
16 for 45.
They passed the ball 48 times to 16 runs in that Super Bowl.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
The rams 1st round RB carried them throughout the season and they got their ass kicked in the SB without him. Gurley averaged 130 total yards and 1+TD per game heading into the playoffs, I think he had something to do with their general success.
Speaking of “passing league”, Goff was awful in the playoffs with 1 TD, 2 INTs, and 2 games below 250 yards passing. “Passing league”, clearly.
You do realize mentioning the 2017 Jaguars (the NFLs #1 rushing offense and elite defense) further proves my point of how stupid the passing league cliche is, don’t you?
What happened this year? Parody, and Fournette missing half the season after getting banged up week 1 may have had something to do with it too.
Fix the locker room culture and fix the trenches. Add in the other pieces when the opportunity is there. There are still stop-gaps on the team and it’s no secret that Eli is one of them.
You realize a big part of beating the Patriots in both Superbowls was keeping their offense off the field with long, sustained drives right? Running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer played a huge part in winning both those games.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
You’re taking one game though. Each game is going to have its own game plan and game flow based on your strengths.
In 46 they passed the ball 41 times to 19 runs. They weren’t a good rushing team and got their on the strength of their passing game.
In 42 they ran the ball in the postseason:
22 times for 69
33 for 154
14 for 28
16 for 45.
They passed the ball 48 times to 16 runs in that Super Bowl.
In 2007 that was their overall philosophy. Jacobs and Bradshaw were plowing dudes with a power running game and setting the tone. Punishing running. Ask Woodson. It’s more than the stats.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
The rams 1st round RB carried them throughout the season and they got their ass kicked in the SB without him. Gurley averaged 130 total yards and 1+TD per game heading into the playoffs, I think he had something to do with their general success.
Speaking of “passing league”, Goff was awful in the playoffs with 1 TD, 2 INTs, and 2 games below 250 yards passing. “Passing league”, clearly.
You do realize mentioning the 2017 Jaguars (the NFLs #1 rushing offense and elite defense) further proves my point of how stupid the passing league cliche is, don’t you?
What happened this year? Parody, and Fournette missing half the season after getting banged up week 1 may have had something to do with it too.
Keep trying.
The 2017 Jaguars were 8th in ypa, they were only the best in total rushing yards but they also had 47 more attempts than the Cowboys who were only 92 yards behind them. They in fact were not the best rushing team.
In 2007 that was their overall philosophy. Jacobs and Bradshaw were plowing dudes with a power running game and setting the tone. Punishing running. Ask Woodson. It’s more than the stats.
And in 2011 their overall philosophy wasn’t predicated on a good running game.
Irregardless of their overall philosophy it came down to their ability to pass the ball when it came to productive offensive play in the playoffs.
Their line was cracking with age in 2011 but they were sure as hell Â
trying for balance. It fell off a cliff after that and we know the rest. As the lines went, the team went. That’s the story, and that’s what we’re finally correcting.
Coughlin did and said the same thing when he got here.
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Game is still won at the LOS on both sides of the ball and that’s what we need to do to restore Giants pride, control the LOS and impose our will on the other team.
Different wording, same message. And it produced a golden era of Giants football, we won way more than we lost, and made the playoffs way more than not from 2005-2011 with that philosophy. Two championships. And oh yeah, Gettleman was here for that too.
If you're not going to have a franchise QB, you better have a dominant defense, a great offensive line, and a great running game.
They have a dreadful defense at almost every level, a mediocre line, and a very good running back.
You have very little margin for error when you don't have a franchise QB. The teams that are contenders year in and year out have franchise QB's.
Gettlemans plan won't work unless he gets a franchise QB. The previous regime left this roster in such awful shape at so many key positions that the alternative way to build a contender will take forever to accomplish, and he'll be out of a job before it happens if it ever does if he cant find a franchise QB
You have very little margin for error when you don't have a franchise QB. The teams that are contenders year in and year out have franchise QB's.
Gettlemans plan won't work unless he gets a franchise QB. The previous regime left this roster in such awful shape at so many key positions that the alternative way to build a contender will take forever to accomplish, and he'll be out of a job before it happens if it ever does if he cant find a franchise QB
This is exactly the point. The pressure for every other unit to be perfect increases the worse you are at passing the football.
It’s a very hard structure to replicate from year to year, see the Jaguars, because a chunk of being a good defense relies on turnover luck.
RE: RE: You know what’s not mentioned a lot here? Â
It will be this year or next. That in no way, shape, or form prevents them from building the team in that vision in the meantime. And the next guy will be better for it.
It will be this year or next. That in no way, shape, or form prevents them from building the team in that vision in the meantime. And the next guy will be better for it.
This is why I want to wait. They can really land some excellent talent on defense to build around Barkley (the “Dallas Model”) and pay what it takes to get their guy in a much better QB class ... best player available (defense) indirectly makes the QB transition easier
I really hope they bypass QB this year and land 2-3 elite defensive prospects. Give Lauretta a longer look, feed Saquon, reassess QB next year with a significantly more improved roster and a ton of cap space. This can be a very quick turnaround if they have as good a draft as last year. 2 strong drafts and a ton of cap room isn’t a bad place to groom the next QB
around a running back no matter who it is. That would be a horrendous plan. Building a team that way will mean by the time they are good Barkley will be commanding big money and towards the end of his prime years. You dont build a team around a position where the players prime if you hit the lottery starts his rookie year and is max 7 years. More likely 5.
Build around a QB and a pass rush. Im not for forcing a QB pick, but Gettleman cant keep punting on a QB because if he does he’ll be out of a job within a year or two because if this team sucks and they have no QB in place I find it hard to believe he will be the GM in 2020.
Do people really think this team has a chance to compete for a playoff spot next year? Even if the Giants have a great draft, I dont see any path to even be 8-8 in 2019.
Its not DG’s fault how bad this roster is, but top to bottom the only team in worse shape in my opinion are the Cardinals. Giants are more likely to be the worst team in the NFL in 2019 than they are to make the playoffs.
the Dallas model isnt a great model, and that model is also dependent on having a great offensive line. The Giants offensive line couldnt wipe Dallas offensive line from two years ago on their best day. That 2016 cowboys line not one lineman from this Giants team would start on. The only similarities between the two teams is that both have a great running game. It would take a couple more years of great drafting to get a line like that. And while I am not a big Dak guy, at this point he is a better QB than Eli.
I really dont know why anyone believes Eli at his age and the results we have seen from him last few years is capable of being a QB on a contender. Being average would be a stretch currently. And now he doesnt have Beckham. Sure, the line could be significantly better but hes also another year older. Hes not going to find the fountain of youth suddenly. Theres nothing wrong with a 38 year old QB being finished as a good player. Brees and Brady are exceptions
the lines, rely on rushing and good defense (necessarily, because you're not going to score much).
But I think we also need to acknowledge that in executing the plan, Gettleman:
-- drafted a RB high last year, despite the league realizing that RBs are pretty fungible. In addition, given that they are definately rebuilding, trading down would have made a ton more sense.
-- let his young, all pro safety walk with absolutely no compensation
-- traded one of the best offensive players in the game for minimal return, for stupid 'culture' reasons
-- goes into the season with one getting-older CB, a second year CB who hasn't played a down yet and bunch of JAGS
-- has a big "TBD" written next to EDGE on the depth chart
-- goes into the draft with a ton of picks but holes at the most important positions on the team (QB, EDGE, CB). He hasn't drafted poorly, but isn't it a bit much to ask him to fill out the positions every team wants in one draft?
We can like the plan, and question some of his moves.
the Dallas model isnt a great model, and that model is also dependent on having a great offensive line. The Giants offensive line couldnt wipe Dallas offensive line from two years ago on their best day. That 2016 cowboys line not one lineman from this Giants team would start on. The only similarities between the two teams is that both have a great running game. It would take a couple more years of great drafting to get a line like that. And while I am not a big Dak guy, at this point he is a better QB than Eli.
I really dont know why anyone believes Eli at his age and the results we have seen from him last few years is capable of being a QB on a contender. Being average would be a stretch currently. And now he doesnt have Beckham. Sure, the line could be significantly better but hes also another year older. Hes not going to find the fountain of youth suddenly. Theres nothing wrong with a 38 year old QB being finished as a good player. Brees and Brady are exceptions
Holy shit. You just explained your question in point 2 in your 1st point. Wow.
the lines, rely on rushing and good defense (necessarily, because you're not going to score much).
But I think we also need to acknowledge that in executing the plan, Gettleman:
-- drafted a RB high last year, despite the league realizing that RBs are pretty fungible. In addition, given that they are definately rebuilding, trading down would have made a ton more sense.
-- let his young, all pro safety walk with absolutely no compensation
-- traded one of the best offensive players in the game for minimal return, for stupid 'culture' reasons
-- goes into the season with one getting-older CB, a second year CB who hasn't played a down yet and bunch of JAGS
-- has a big "TBD" written next to EDGE on the depth chart
-- goes into the draft with a ton of picks but holes at the most important positions on the team (QB, EDGE, CB). He hasn't drafted poorly, but isn't it a bit much to ask him to fill out the positions every team wants in one draft?
We can like the plan, and question some of his moves.
Good post. I understand what you're saying. However, I don't like the plan mainly due to your 1st point but also the OBJ deal. With the #2 overall pick in the draft and numerous holes to fill, you don't draft an RB. You pick the QB (or even Q. Nelson or B. Chubb) or as you noted - trade down. It's likely one of the QB needy teams would have had interest in jumping in front of the Jets.
Gettleman picked a great player, likely the best player in the draft. I don't think it was the most effective use of that pick. I guess if you are a believer that the strong running game/game manager QB is the best way to win, you disagree with me. Give me the upper level QB and a decent RB any day. In both cases you need at least a good defense. However when going all in on the power football model you need a dominant defense not just a good one. The game has changed. You either adapt or remain a perennial also-ran.
The podcast guys, Lombardi and the other guys who’s name I have gladly forgotten, have actually become unlistenable to me (same with the NJ.com pod) because they’re relentless in criticizing DG and Eli. Aside the overt and unending criticism, I just don’t agree that “running backs don’t matter” or that defense isn’t important or that every team in the NFL should be built like the Chiefs. (Hey, did the Chiefs win the Super Bowl last year in The Ringerland?) I feel like a lot of these analytics guys and the media are more focused on Daftkings and their fantasy team than actual football. These Ringer guys spent most of last season tea bagging Sean McVay and Jared Goff. Again, not sure which Super Bowl they watched at The Ringer, but Goff didn’t look too good to me in any playoff game, certainly not special, and McVay was undressed for much of the NFC Championship game and all of the Super Bowl. So, I’m just not a fan of the Ringer crew.
Of course DG has a plan, and it’s been clear as day since the day he announced his plan. Will it work? I think so.
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
Quote:
In comment 14398227 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
And every move he's made has been in accordance with that plan.
It's not hard to see, unless you don't want to or flat out refuse to.
His plan might work well if it were 1985.
Although if they don't find a franchise QB, it won't matter what the rest of his plan is because he'll be fired long before the Giants are good again
Worked pretty well for the last guys that believed that, from about 2005-2011.
The 2011 team wasn’t good at running the football and was a top 5 passing team.
The 2007 team it worked because of an elite pass rush, a secondary that stepped it up in the post season, and timely QB play.
I’m sorry, is this not a discussion board?
NFL GMs are never wrong? There’s a good number of people who think the Giants are headed in the wrong direction, but sure.
What goal posts did I move?
Quote:
OL + DL + QB = championship
It's worked 4 times and it will work again.
I think that's part of the issue they had with drafting a RB at #2 overall last yr in what was considered by many to be one of the best QB classes in a long time.
If it were OL + DL + RB = championship then that move would have made more sense. But as the article stated, if he really didn't believe in any of the QB's then passing on them is the smart move.
My personal biggest concern (and take this with a grain of salt) is that Gettleman really believed that "Eli had years left" and could still win a championship. If he really believed that (and made the decision at #2 b/c of it) then his QB evaluation skills are scary.
Let's cut to the chase.
This is just thread #3,167 from Josh lamenting not drafting a QB.
Time after fucking time. The same thing.
Quote:
.
What goal posts did I move?
The one where teams only pass to score then get good rushing stats only with the lead.
Quote:
In comment 14398399 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
.
What goal posts did I move?
The one where teams only pass to score then get good rushing stats only with the lead.
That’s not what I said regarding rushing stats. Rushing stats are inflated because of the end of game situations. Game flow matters.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
Quote:
LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
Rams (2nd most rushing TD, 8th most pass TD) vs. Patriots (4th most rushing TD, 11th most pass TD)
Both teams with 1st round RB on the roster too. Good night.
Quote:
In comment 14398402 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14398399 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
.
What goal posts did I move?
The one where teams only pass to score then get good rushing stats only with the lead.
That’s not what I said regarding rushing stats. Rushing stats are inflated because of the end of game situations. Game flow matters.
I know exactly what you said. And it still is wrong.
Quote:
you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
The difference is i’m Using data rather than cliches and a fantasy-football mindset.
Top 5 rushing teams seem to still somehow make the SB every year ... it’s almost like it’s still beneficial. How’d teams get so far with Bortles/Keenum/Foles in 2017? Why’d 2 top 5 rushing teams with 1st round RBs make this SB this past season?
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
He talks a good story but actions speak louder than words.
Our oline was ranked 15th against the run in 2017 .... 29th in 2018.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017
Our two best run stoppers Collins and Snacks are no longer on the team
Our two best pass rushers JPP and Vernon are no longer on the team.
Culture doesn't win games. Michael Irvin stabbed a teammate in the neck but that team won 3 super bowls in four years.
https://www.theversed.com/10506/scissorgate-remembering-michael-irvin-nearly-stabbed-teammate-death/#.DLNbM4yDOc
It's great that you're so optimistic but I'll have to see results before I believe DG is anything other that a clown.
Sony Michel
2/3 games over 110 rushing yards; 6 rushing TDs
Passing league, clearly.
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In comment 14398339 GothamGiants said:
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LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
Rams (2nd most rushing TD, 8th most pass TD) vs. Patriots (4th most rushing TD, 11th most pass TD)
Both teams with 1st round RB on the roster too. Good night.
You didn’t answer the question so I’ll do it for you:
2018: Rams 1.34:1, Pats 1.61:1
2017: Pats 2:1 passing td to rushing ratio, Eagles 4.2:1
2016: Falcons: 2:1, Pats 1.68:1
2015: Panthers: 1.84: Pats 2.56:1
2014: Pats 2.61:1, Seahawks 1:1
So the champions had
1.61:1
4.2:1
1.68:1
2.56:1
2.61:1
3 of the last 5 champions passed for more than a full TD more a game than they ran for. The Eagles had a grand total of 9 rushing TDS. Just spitting out rushing total yardage ignores the context behind the stats.
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In comment 14398425 Dave on the UWS said:
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you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
The difference is i’m Using data rather than cliches and a fantasy-football mindset.
Top 5 rushing teams seem to still somehow make the SB every year ... it’s almost like it’s still beneficial. How’d teams get so far with Bortles/Keenum/Foles in 2017? Why’d 2 top 5 rushing teams with 1st round RBs make this SB this past season?
The only data your using is total rushing yards. That’s box score scouting.
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Especially since he's said it over and over again.
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
He talks a good story but actions speak louder than words.
Our oline was ranked 15th against the run in 2017 .... 29th in 2018.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017
Our two best run stoppers Collins and Snacks are no longer on the team
Our two best pass rushers JPP and Vernon are no longer on the team.
Culture doesn't win games. Michael Irvin stabbed a teammate in the neck but that team won 3 super bowls in four years.
https://www.theversed.com/10506/scissorgate-remembering-michael-irvin-nearly-stabbed-teammate-death/#.DLNbM4yDOc
It's great that you're so optimistic but I'll have to see results before I believe DG is anything other that a clown.
Culture absolutely matters. Talk about using old data siting Michael Irvin. How about in today’s nfl where seasons are ruined with 1 bad egg?
DG cleaned house to get rid of bad contracts and improve culture. How anyone can say that was t the right thing to do is beyond me.
I love Murray. Jones I don't hate, but I certainly liked last years crop of QB's the giants had to pick from better than him.
Britt, the 2005-2011 teams had a terrific pass rush and a franchise QB. They also had the worst running game in the league in the regular season in 2011 and still made the playoffs because Eli stood on his head.
Running the ball is important, but it's a lot easier to find running backs than it is pass rushers or franchise QB's. Their plan is dead in the water without a pass rush and a QB.
If they can't get Murray I would load up on defense this year, take 2 pass rushers 1st 2 picks or a pass rusher and a corner. Then get QB in 2020.
Saquon is an awesome talent but each year the Giants suck and without a QB and a pass rush they will certainly continue to suck until they fill those holes his prime is being wasted. The way the Giants are going by the time they are good again Barkley will be wanting mega bucks and then his value significantly diminishes when he's making huge money. The Giants will have hit the lottery if his prime lasts more than 5 years. I fear a coach like Shurmur who will be fired if the Giants suck in 2019 running Barkley into the ground and shortening his shelf life even more.
I really have no idea why people expect the Giants to be even decent in 2019. People (and the GM) keep talking about culture. The Giants dont have a culture problem. They have a "one of the worst rosters talent wise in the entire league" problem. The most important positions on the field the Giants have below average talent, and that might be putting it kindly.
I was for trading Saquon because I think this team is further away from contending than all but one or two other teams in the league. I have zero interest in paying a running back huge money. I have a hard time seeing this team as a true contender until they get a franchise QB.
I want Murray or Josh Allen with the 1st pick. Then defense at 17.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
A well run team can afford to bring in cancers like Moss and Bennett and head cases like Gordon and Harrison.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
You’re taking one game though. Each game is going to have its own game plan and game flow based on your strengths.
In 46 they passed the ball 41 times to 19 runs. They weren’t a good rushing team and got their on the strength of their passing game.
In 42 they ran the ball in the postseason:
22 times for 69
33 for 154
14 for 28
16 for 45.
They passed the ball 48 times to 16 runs in that Super Bowl.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
The rams 1st round RB carried them throughout the season and they got their ass kicked in the SB without him. Gurley averaged 130 total yards and 1+TD per game heading into the playoffs, I think he had something to do with their general success.
Speaking of “passing league”, Goff was awful in the playoffs with 1 TD, 2 INTs, and 2 games below 250 yards passing. “Passing league”, clearly.
You do realize mentioning the 2017 Jaguars (the NFLs #1 rushing offense and elite defense) further proves my point of how stupid the passing league cliche is, don’t you?
What happened this year? Parody, and Fournette missing half the season after getting banged up week 1 may have had something to do with it too.
Keep trying.
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You realize a big part of beating the Patriots in both Superbowls was keeping their offense off the field with long, sustained drives right? Running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer played a huge part in winning both those games.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
You’re taking one game though. Each game is going to have its own game plan and game flow based on your strengths.
In 46 they passed the ball 41 times to 19 runs. They weren’t a good rushing team and got their on the strength of their passing game.
In 42 they ran the ball in the postseason:
22 times for 69
33 for 154
14 for 28
16 for 45.
They passed the ball 48 times to 16 runs in that Super Bowl.
In 2007 that was their overall philosophy. Jacobs and Bradshaw were plowing dudes with a power running game and setting the tone. Punishing running. Ask Woodson. It’s more than the stats.
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Barely played in the playoffs.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
The rams 1st round RB carried them throughout the season and they got their ass kicked in the SB without him. Gurley averaged 130 total yards and 1+TD per game heading into the playoffs, I think he had something to do with their general success.
Speaking of “passing league”, Goff was awful in the playoffs with 1 TD, 2 INTs, and 2 games below 250 yards passing. “Passing league”, clearly.
You do realize mentioning the 2017 Jaguars (the NFLs #1 rushing offense and elite defense) further proves my point of how stupid the passing league cliche is, don’t you?
What happened this year? Parody, and Fournette missing half the season after getting banged up week 1 may have had something to do with it too.
Keep trying.
The 2017 Jaguars were 8th in ypa, they were only the best in total rushing yards but they also had 47 more attempts than the Cowboys who were only 92 yards behind them. They in fact were not the best rushing team.
In 2007 that was their overall philosophy. Jacobs and Bradshaw were plowing dudes with a power running game and setting the tone. Punishing running. Ask Woodson. It’s more than the stats.
And in 2011 their overall philosophy wasn’t predicated on a good running game.
Irregardless of their overall philosophy it came down to their ability to pass the ball when it came to productive offensive play in the playoffs.
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Game is still won at the LOS on both sides of the ball and that’s what we need to do to restore Giants pride, control the LOS and impose our will on the other team.
Different wording, same message. And it produced a golden era of Giants football, we won way more than we lost, and made the playoffs way more than not from 2005-2011 with that philosophy. Two championships. And oh yeah, Gettleman was here for that too.
If you're not going to have a franchise QB, you better have a dominant defense, a great offensive line, and a great running game.
They have a dreadful defense at almost every level, a mediocre line, and a very good running back.
You have very little margin for error when you don't have a franchise QB. The teams that are contenders year in and year out have franchise QB's.
Gettlemans plan won't work unless he gets a franchise QB. The previous regime left this roster in such awful shape at so many key positions that the alternative way to build a contender will take forever to accomplish, and he'll be out of a job before it happens if it ever does if he cant find a franchise QB
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Those teams might have rivaled the 2019 Yankees in terms of injuries though.
Gettlemans plan won't work unless he gets a franchise QB. The previous regime left this roster in such awful shape at so many key positions that the alternative way to build a contender will take forever to accomplish, and he'll be out of a job before it happens if it ever does if he cant find a franchise QB
This is exactly the point. The pressure for every other unit to be perfect increases the worse you are at passing the football.
It’s a very hard structure to replicate from year to year, see the Jaguars, because a chunk of being a good defense relies on turnover luck.
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Coughlin did and said the same thing when he got here.
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Those teams might have rivaled the 2019 Yankees in terms of injuries though.
And their “next man up” CULTURE still allowed them to be competitive and win championships despite that.
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In comment 14398546 Britt in VA said:
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Coughlin did and said the same thing when he got here.
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Those teams might have rivaled the 2019 Yankees in terms of injuries though.
And their “next man up” CULTURE still allowed them to be competitive and win championships despite that.
Not disagreeing.
This is why I want to wait. They can really land some excellent talent on defense to build around Barkley (the “Dallas Model”) and pay what it takes to get their guy in a much better QB class ... best player available (defense) indirectly makes the QB transition easier
I really hope they bypass QB this year and land 2-3 elite defensive prospects. Give Lauretta a longer look, feed Saquon, reassess QB next year with a significantly more improved roster and a ton of cap space. This can be a very quick turnaround if they have as good a draft as last year. 2 strong drafts and a ton of cap room isn’t a bad place to groom the next QB
Build around a QB and a pass rush. Im not for forcing a QB pick, but Gettleman cant keep punting on a QB because if he does he’ll be out of a job within a year or two because if this team sucks and they have no QB in place I find it hard to believe he will be the GM in 2020.
Do people really think this team has a chance to compete for a playoff spot next year? Even if the Giants have a great draft, I dont see any path to even be 8-8 in 2019.
Its not DG’s fault how bad this roster is, but top to bottom the only team in worse shape in my opinion are the Cardinals. Giants are more likely to be the worst team in the NFL in 2019 than they are to make the playoffs.
I would be thrilled to get Murray or Josh Allen.
I really dont know why anyone believes Eli at his age and the results we have seen from him last few years is capable of being a QB on a contender. Being average would be a stretch currently. And now he doesnt have Beckham. Sure, the line could be significantly better but hes also another year older. Hes not going to find the fountain of youth suddenly. Theres nothing wrong with a 38 year old QB being finished as a good player. Brees and Brady are exceptions
But I think we also need to acknowledge that in executing the plan, Gettleman:
-- drafted a RB high last year, despite the league realizing that RBs are pretty fungible. In addition, given that they are definately rebuilding, trading down would have made a ton more sense.
-- let his young, all pro safety walk with absolutely no compensation
-- traded one of the best offensive players in the game for minimal return, for stupid 'culture' reasons
-- goes into the season with one getting-older CB, a second year CB who hasn't played a down yet and bunch of JAGS
-- has a big "TBD" written next to EDGE on the depth chart
-- goes into the draft with a ton of picks but holes at the most important positions on the team (QB, EDGE, CB). He hasn't drafted poorly, but isn't it a bit much to ask him to fill out the positions every team wants in one draft?
We can like the plan, and question some of his moves.
I really dont know why anyone believes Eli at his age and the results we have seen from him last few years is capable of being a QB on a contender. Being average would be a stretch currently. And now he doesnt have Beckham. Sure, the line could be significantly better but hes also another year older. Hes not going to find the fountain of youth suddenly. Theres nothing wrong with a 38 year old QB being finished as a good player. Brees and Brady are exceptions
Holy shit. You just explained your question in point 2 in your 1st point. Wow.
But I think we also need to acknowledge that in executing the plan, Gettleman:
-- drafted a RB high last year, despite the league realizing that RBs are pretty fungible. In addition, given that they are definately rebuilding, trading down would have made a ton more sense.
-- let his young, all pro safety walk with absolutely no compensation
-- traded one of the best offensive players in the game for minimal return, for stupid 'culture' reasons
-- goes into the season with one getting-older CB, a second year CB who hasn't played a down yet and bunch of JAGS
-- has a big "TBD" written next to EDGE on the depth chart
-- goes into the draft with a ton of picks but holes at the most important positions on the team (QB, EDGE, CB). He hasn't drafted poorly, but isn't it a bit much to ask him to fill out the positions every team wants in one draft?
We can like the plan, and question some of his moves.
Good post. I understand what you're saying. However, I don't like the plan mainly due to your 1st point but also the OBJ deal. With the #2 overall pick in the draft and numerous holes to fill, you don't draft an RB. You pick the QB (or even Q. Nelson or B. Chubb) or as you noted - trade down. It's likely one of the QB needy teams would have had interest in jumping in front of the Jets.
Gettleman picked a great player, likely the best player in the draft. I don't think it was the most effective use of that pick. I guess if you are a believer that the strong running game/game manager QB is the best way to win, you disagree with me. Give me the upper level QB and a decent RB any day. In both cases you need at least a good defense. However when going all in on the power football model you need a dominant defense not just a good one. The game has changed. You either adapt or remain a perennial also-ran.
Of course DG has a plan, and it’s been clear as day since the day he announced his plan. Will it work? I think so.