Really good article from The Ringer today. I know Gettleman has been trashed by many in the media for not having a cohesive plan in place. But maybe he does, even if most don't agree with it. The Ringer - ( New Window )
No more finesse “basketball on grass” nonsense, no more locker room drama, and getting back to being a physical run-first team.
The OL has been upgraded significantly since he’s taken over and it’s pretty clear he’s intent on getting Bettcher “his players” on defense that actually fit the scheme. Trading Vernon for Zietler was a great move, for so many reasons.
His 2018 draft class is looking like the best we’ve seen in years and I love the direction this team is heading.
Takes some time to undue Reese’s shitshow, but he’s on the right track.
I think that's part of the issue they had with drafting a RB at #2 overall last yr in what was considered by many to be one of the best QB classes in a long time.
If it were OL + DL + RB = championship then that move would have made more sense. But as the article stated, if he really didn't believe in any of the QB's then passing on them is the smart move.
My personal biggest concern (and take this with a grain of salt) is that Gettleman really believed that "Eli had years left" and could still win a championship. If he really believed that (and made the decision at #2 b/c of it) then his QB evaluation skills are scary.
No more finesse “basketball on grass” nonsense, no more locker room drama, and getting back to being a physical run-first team.
The OL has been upgraded significantly since he’s taken over and it’s pretty clear he’s intent on getting Bettcher “his players” on defense that actually fit the scheme. Trading Vernon for Zietler was a great move, for so many reasons.
couldn't agree more. Don't ever forget the JPP of TEs
His 2018 draft class is looking like the best we’ve seen in years and I love the direction this team is heading.
Takes some time to undue Reese’s shitshow, but he’s on the right track.
to support a young QB. Run the ball, Stop the run, and Rush the quarterback. I think DG is going against the grain, as far as how offenses and defenses play now. This may be an advantage, as defenses these days are geared towards stop pass oriented offenses.
I think that's part of the issue they had with drafting a RB at #2 overall last yr in what was considered by many to be one of the best QB classes in a long time.
If it were OL + DL + RB = championship then that move would have made more sense. But as the article stated, if he really didn't believe in any of the QB's then passing on them is the smart move.
My personal biggest concern (and take this with a grain of salt) is that Gettleman really believed that "Eli had years left" and could still win a championship. If he really believed that (and made the decision at #2 b/c of it) then his QB evaluation skills are scary.
Agreed with this. That said, after this draft, the sample size will be larger re: draft picks and it may make more sense. Seems likely we'll go with QB/OL/Front 7 with the first few picks of the draft this year.
but whether the plan is sound in 2019 with all the rule and playcalling changes that have impacted the game, whether the plan is harmonized with Shurmur and Betcher's playbooks or and whether the plan will be executed in the right way through sourcing the right talent remains to be seen.
a plan's success is measured by objective data, which in the NFL is your overall record. DG's plan is currently 5-11. we'll see in 3, 5 or 10 years whether that's turned around. You can only blame Reese for so long before he needs to accept responsibility.
when people question whether the Giants have a "plan", a big part of that is what they are planning to do to transition the most important position on the field and succeed Eli. perhaps we get our answer in three days.
I am not pro or anti Gettleman. Like everyone else I comment on individual moves, but the success or failure of his tenure will be based on a picture that starts to form after 3 or so seasons. All I care is that he succeeds during that period when the most important judgment will take place, but the flak he takes from the print media and the talking heads that basically are a bunch of keyboard warriors with no experience in running an NFL team is just too much for me to take. Even if I was not a Giants fan, I kinda want to pull for him to shove it down these "know it all" throats.
If anything, trading Beckham finally made me see a plan.
I look forward to Peppers showing how good he is in this scheme ... he gets talked about like he’s some throw in scrub - when in reality he was a key reason for the trade happening
I loved the move, and think Peppers will thrive as a bigger / more athletic HoneyBadger for Bettcher
The guy doesn’t cut an established starting vet qb Â
And doesn’t draft a good looking qb at the espwnse of an insanely great looking player in Barkley and we have to ask if the guy has a plan? The fuck is wrong with people. He’s turned over virtually the entire team in one calendar year! He’s accrued the most draft picks in a deep draft.
I don’t get it. One entity hasn’t been swapped out for a young kid and fans turn into fucking morons. One! And at what cost are we supposed to cut the qb??? For whom? Teddy fucking bridgewater?
This wasn’t a shot at the op or linked article. Just my daily rant in lieu of said linked article... I think.
Since Gettleman didn’t take a QB last year (even if God was available) he must be a clueless putz with no plan. That’s the media narrative (and a good part of this site) every damn day! From day one, he had emphasized building the lines, and acknowledging that Eli can’t play forever and he needs to get a successor in the building “sooner than later”. How much clearer does he need to be? Oh and his top picks (other than Saquon who was a unique case), he drafter 1 OL, 2 DL and 1 Edge/OLB. He’s pretty transparent.
but whether the plan is sound in 2019 with all the rule and playcalling changes that have impacted the game, whether the plan is harmonized with Shurmur and Betcher's playbooks or and whether the plan will be executed in the right way through sourcing the right talent remains to be seen.
a plan's success is measured by objective data, which in the NFL is your overall record. DG's plan is currently 5-11. we'll see in 3, 5 or 10 years whether that's turned around. You can only blame Reese for so long before he needs to accept responsibility.
when people question whether the Giants have a "plan", a big part of that is what they are planning to do to transition the most important position on the field and succeed Eli. perhaps we get our answer in three days.
I agree. I believe there would be less "plan" questions had he selected Darnold last year. Did he pick a great player last year in Saquon? Absolutely no question about it. For a team that had (and still has) all the needs that the Giants did, was it a great draft pick? I don't think so. In other words, I don't think it was the best usage of the #2 pick.
What are the keys to building a great team? Most would say QB, pass rusher, OL, and CB. For a team that sucked, picking an RB at #2 seemed like quite a misguided luxury. Darnold, Q. Nelson or B. Chubb would seem like better usage of the #2 pick in terms of the positions where you need premier players and the laws of supply and demand. You can find an RB you can win with in any draft even on day 2. Will you find another Saquon? No, but you don't need a "gold jacket" guy at that position.
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
Anyone with any common sense can see DG has a plan and what it is Â
Especially since he's said it over and over again.
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Have you not seen us get blown of the ball on both sides of the line for the last 6 seasons?
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
Or maybe like the Pats offense when they mowed down Rams with their running game in the Super Bowl. The Rams (and many others) are building teams to stop the pass, not stop the run. The Pats are going the other way and so are the Giants.
The Giants have been an absolute circus the past few years. Out of the playoff race by October. The only reason they were being discussed was guys like Odell, Landon and Eli Apple grabbing headlines for all of the wrong reasons.
Many think Dave Gettleman was hired because he was a friend of John's and would go along with status quo. I actually believe its the opposite. John Mara hired Dave Gettleman because he knew success had followed him everywhere he went, meaning his success was not defined by his Giants tenure. While he fully trusted Gettleman, he knew Dave's #1 priority is building a winning football team. So when Dave Gettleman has to tell John Mara something he doesn't want to hear, i imagine he does so albeit reluctantly.
The Giants have a plan, but its not rosy. The Giants want the exact kind of locker room the Patriots have had for years. No leaks, no anonymous sources talking to the press, absolutely no bullshit anymore. Come in to work and grind. The Giants lost control of the work environment they wanted, and that's largely on them for not setting Odell straight from the start. But it reached a point where being partially culpable had to take a back burner to making a decision on what kind of culture and environment they wanted here.
And that is not to say Odell can't go to a team with a strong foundation in place and be kept in line when he starts to stray. He is not a bad person either. But the foundation was not in place here. It had rotted out. And when expectations are not clear from the start and you suddenly change the rules, it is near impossible for the process to go smoothly.
They want a non-flashy, highly technical team that emphasizes doing the basic things right ad nauseum. They want to pound teams into the ground, and they want a blue collar defense who makes you tap out by the third quarter.
Will they accomplish their goals? Well, i believe the culture and locker room they have envisioned is now in place, but they obviously need more talent. Shurmur needs to keep improving as a head coach. But for the first time in a long time, the Giants at least have a vision of what they want to be.
RE: The national media narrative is way over the top.. Â
If anything, trading Beckham finally made me see a plan.
I kind of fall in with you. I still am skeptical of how they've proceeded forward with Eli (to me its either poor asset allocation or a complete absence of it), but Gettleman has otherwise had a good offseason so far. It's a relief, because I thought his 2018 was terrible. We'll see how the draft goes...picking a QB in the first round would be a mistake - if we're committing to Eli then let's surround him with players that will play.
If the approach is to build strong lines an a strong running game, I'm curious as to whether Gettleman may be onto something by zigging while the league is zagging.
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
a very top heavy roster. Slowly , but surely he's been trimming the large cap hits (Vernon, Beckham, Snacks) and spreading the cap dollars more efficiently. Next year, I expect Jenkins and Ogletree to be released or offered a pay cut. Eli's contract will expire as well.
You can argue about timing and proper compensation, but you can see how he's going about business.
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
Or maybe like the Pats offense when they mowed down Rams with their running game in the Super Bowl. The Rams (and many others) are building teams to stop the pass, not stop the run. The Pats are going the other way and so are the Giants.
That’s not true at all. The Patriots passed the ball as much as the Rams did. They ran the ball more because they had a lead. Two of the patriots four highest paid players are defensive backs.
They’ve traded for Brandin Cooks and Josh’s Gordon for what reason?
And please stop comparing teams to how the Patriots run things. Nobody can emulate it.
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
You’d like them to fall in lone with what the league is doing, and how teams are stocking up on defense to defend the quick striking offense. Not sure why. Trends are broken all the time, and I’d rather be ahead of the curve than try to copy it when it may soon be out dated.
Controlling the clock and forcing your opponent into 3rd and long is a good thing no matter what era of football you are in. It also makes it much easier for a new QB to come in an excel.
It’s foolish to think you’ve got the league figured out and that it won’t change.
RE: The guy doesn’t cut an established starting vet qb Â
And doesn’t draft a good looking qb at the espwnse of an insanely great looking player in Barkley and we have to ask if the guy has a plan? The fuck is wrong with people. He’s turned over virtually the entire team in one calendar year! He’s accrued the most draft picks in a deep draft.
I don’t get it. One entity hasn’t been swapped out for a young kid and fans turn into fucking morons. One! And at what cost are we supposed to cut the qb??? For whom? Teddy fucking bridgewater?
This wasn’t a shot at the op or linked article. Just my daily rant in lieu of said linked article... I think.
Enough with the most draft picks nonsense. 8 of the 12 picks are on day 3. Half of our picks are in rounds 5, 6, and 7. I get that this draft is deep, but odds are that we'll see one - maybe two - legitimate players emerge from those day 3 picks.
Beyond that, there's also a point where you can't go around claiming that flipping the dollars in your pocket into brand new lottery tickets is some sort of sound investment strategy. There's an element of addition by subtraction that Gettleman is banking on here, and I'm fine giving him a chance to be right on that, but enough already with the "most draft picks" bullshit as though every pick is a given to succeed or that those late picks are worth as much as earlier picks.
RE: RE: The national media narrative is way over the top.. Â
If the approach is to build strong lines an a strong running game, I'm curious as to whether Gettleman may be onto something by zigging while the league is zagging.
The problem is two fold:
1) the running game has to be extraordinary good to cancel out the added attention and still be effective enough to win games and keep pace with other offenses.
2) Teams are becoming so good at passing the football that selling out on stoping the run and not putting resources into the secondary is a dangerous game in 2019. Our secondary won’t stand a chance without an elite pass rush.
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
You’d like them to fall in lone with what the league is doing, and how teams are stocking up on defense to defend the quick striking offense. Not sure why. Trends are broken all the time, and I’d rather be ahead of the curve than try to copy it when it may soon be out dated.
Controlling the clock and forcing your opponent into 3rd and long is a good thing no matter what era of football you are in. It also makes it much easier for a new QB to come in an excel.
It’s foolish to think you’ve got the league figured out and that it won’t change.
And what happens if you fall behind 14-0? Sure breaking the trends is one way to stay ahead of the curve but good defenses have a tendency to not translate well from year to year, minus a handful of exceptions.
If you can’t put out a top 10 defense that can stop today’s passing offenses you’re playing a dangerous game.
a good secondary? Your posts are very confusing. We are talking about the Giants offense and building a good DLine to stop the run. That doesn’t mean don’t try and get better at DB. They drafted Beal. They kept Jenkins. They traded for Peppers. What am I missing here?
a good secondary? Your posts are very confusing. We are talking about the Giants offense and building a good DLine to stop the run. That doesn’t mean don’t try and get better at DB. They drafted Beal. They kept Jenkins. They traded for Peppers. What am I missing here?
Look at his track record. He doesn’t put money or high draft picks into the secondary.
a good secondary? Your posts are very confusing. We are talking about the Giants offense and building a good DLine to stop the run. That doesn’t mean don’t try and get better at DB. They drafted Beal. They kept Jenkins. They traded for Peppers. What am I missing here?
Would you call this secondary a top 20 secondary as currently constructed?
It’s not good enough to hang with today’s offenses without an elite pass rush.
he had a high priced CB that he kept despite trading away the other Reese FAs, he invested a 3rd in Beal, and he traded for a Safety that can cover. And that’s before this draft even starts. Your mind is made up, and there’s no point in arguing with you. Believe what you want.
The point remains, you need good secondary play and elite pass rushing to play a ball control offense in 2019. It’s the only way to win games 25-20 instead of 40-35. There’s a reason the league is trending towards a passing league. They’ve identified the weaknesses.
Sure the Giants can try to buck the trend, but they’ll need to be insanely efficient and become top 10 in those weaknesses and sustain that year to year.
If your secondary is at the bottom of the league or you get ravaged by injuries you can still win games if you’re efficient passing and can put up points. If you’re built to control the ball, that becomes a lot harder.
explain their desire to get an edge rusher at the top of the draft. I don’t really know what else to tell you. You are posting like Gettleman not only said he doesn’t care about stopping the pass but backed it up without making a single move for the secondary. It’s odd.
The draft hasn’t happened yet, how about waiting until it does?
Just not sure its a plan that is capable of winning in today's league. If your offense is predicated on the run, then you unquestionably need a top 5 defense both in yards and points. Think teams like the Bucs, Ravens, Jaguars of a couple of years ago.
Time will tell and I think the next qb choice will have a lot to say in where the Giants view themselves as a franchise.
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
I’ve posted on this nonsense repeatedly, so I’ll just leave a link and you can see the data yourself. So tired of this “passing league” bullshit
The teams that run the ball and stop the run are successful.
The Patriots were top 10 in rushing offense and rushing defense.
The Eagles were top 5 in rushing offense and rushing defense.
has a plan shared by many football legends and is proven to work....always; control the line of scrimmage, team first members with talent, and great coaching. His plan is also going to have the Giants consistently in the mix in December. Hopefully they will catch some breaks and cross the finish line to a championship.
Often times a leader reaches greatness by one critical decision. I am fully confident DG will put tougher a tough, passionate team that fights and will be competitive.
His tenure will be defined as good or great by if they win a championship or not. Ultimately it will come down to having picked the right coach and either being correct in sticking with Eli or finding his successor ASAP.
Top 5 in rushing offense, including the playoff push on the back of their first round RB Sony Michel
Brady also had more INT than TD this postseason
Philly had the #3 rushing offense and #1 run defense in their SB year. Blake F’n Bortles was 1 quarter away from playing against Nick Foles in this super bowl ... which also included Case Keenum in the conference championship on the back of a top 10 run offense/defense.
So sick of this “pass first” nonsense. It’s still football.
Just not sure its a plan that is capable of winning in today's league. If your offense is predicated on the run, then you unquestionably need a top 5 defense both in yards and points. Think teams like the Bucs, Ravens, Jaguars of a couple of years ago.
Time will tell and I think the next qb choice will have a lot to say in where the Giants view themselves as a franchise.
I still don’t see why it’s all or nothing. It sounds to me like Gettleman wants to focus on the run and ToP, not abandon the pass. People need to take a step back and think logically.
Just not sure its a plan that is capable of winning in today's league. If your offense is predicated on the run, then you unquestionably need a top 5 defense both in yards and points. Think teams like the Bucs, Ravens, Jaguars of a couple of years ago.
Time will tell and I think the next qb choice will have a lot to say in where the Giants view themselves as a franchise.
I still don’t see why it’s all or nothing. It sounds to me like Gettleman wants to focus on the run and ToP, not abandon the pass. People need to take a step back and think logically.
Strong game makes Eli’s playaction even more effective ... everybody wins
Feed Saquon, get Shepard/Tate constant 1:1 matchups and let a yac-machine like Tate burn secondaries
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
DG’s mantra is more rooted in facts and results than this fantasy football, PFF garbage take.
Who has won a SB on the back of some high flying passing offense the last 20 years? The Rams? Anyone else?
Top 5 in rushing offense, including the playoff push on the back of their first round RB Sony Michel
Brady also had more INT than TD this postseason
Philly had the #3 rushing offense and #1 run defense in their SB year. Blake F’n Bortles was 1 quarter away from playing against Nick Foles in this super bowl ... which also included Case Keenum in the conference championship on the back of a top 10 run offense/defense.
So sick of this “pass first” nonsense. It’s still football.
You repeatedly post about the Jags and Blake Bortles. The year they went to the AFC Championship Game that defense was dominant and scored a freakish amount of defensive TDs if I recall. Last year, when the defense was still one of the best in the league (5th overall) but lacking those defensive TDs, they could no longer compete because Blake F'n Bortles was their QB and they couldn't score. One of the first things they did in the offseason was replace him. Without a good QB and passing game, all other facets of the team must be dominant in order to contend.
DG’s mantra is more rooted in facts and results than this fantasy football, PFF garbage take.
Who has won a SB on the back of some high flying passing offense the last 20 years? The Rams? Anyone else?
Off the top of my head - Packers, Saints, Colts. I'm sure there have been others - if not "high flying" then at least in the Top 10 in passing offense.
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
DG’s mantra is more rooted in facts and results than this fantasy football, PFF garbage take.
Who has won a SB on the back of some high flying passing offense the last 20 years? The Rams? Anyone else?
Just not sure its a plan that is capable of winning in today's league. If your offense is predicated on the run, then you unquestionably need a top 5 defense both in yards and points. Think teams like the Bucs, Ravens, Jaguars of a couple of years ago.
Time will tell and I think the next qb choice will have a lot to say in where the Giants view themselves as a franchise.
I still don’t see why it’s all or nothing. It sounds to me like Gettleman wants to focus on the run and ToP, not abandon the pass. People need to take a step back and think logically.
Strong game makes Eli’s playaction even more effective ... everybody wins
Feed Saquon, get Shepard/Tate constant 1:1 matchups and let a yac-machine like Tate burn secondaries
This also isn’t true, a strong running game doesn’t lead to more effective play action.
Let’s hear some solutions. We get it, you think the team sucks and want them to tank every year. Who would you draft at 6/17? Do you like any of the QB’s this year?
DG’s mantra is more rooted in facts and results than this fantasy football, PFF garbage take.
Who has won a SB on the back of some high flying passing offense the last 20 years? The Rams? Anyone else?
Off the top of my head - Packers, Saints, Colts. I'm sure there have been others - if not "high flying" then at least in the Top 10 in passing offense.
The Colts defense carried them through the playoffs in 06. I don’t really remember the Packers and saints runs.
It’s ironic that the data supports DG’s take yet he gets shit on here and in the media for being an antiquated moron.
LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
I think that's part of the issue they had with drafting a RB at #2 overall last yr in what was considered by many to be one of the best QB classes in a long time.
If it were OL + DL + RB = championship then that move would have made more sense. But as the article stated, if he really didn't believe in any of the QB's then passing on them is the smart move.
My personal biggest concern (and take this with a grain of salt) is that Gettleman really believed that "Eli had years left" and could still win a championship. If he really believed that (and made the decision at #2 b/c of it) then his QB evaluation skills are scary.
Let's cut to the chase.
This is just thread #3,167 from Josh lamenting not drafting a QB.
you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
Rams (2nd most rushing TD, 8th most pass TD) vs. Patriots (4th most rushing TD, 11th most pass TD)
Both teams with 1st round RB on the roster too. Good night.
you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
The difference is i’m Using data rather than cliches and a fantasy-football mindset.
Top 5 rushing teams seem to still somehow make the SB every year ... it’s almost like it’s still beneficial. How’d teams get so far with Bortles/Keenum/Foles in 2017? Why’d 2 top 5 rushing teams with 1st round RBs make this SB this past season?
RE: Anyone with any common sense can see DG has a plan and what it is Â
Especially since he's said it over and over again.
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
He talks a good story but actions speak louder than words.
Our oline was ranked 15th against the run in 2017 .... 29th in 2018.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017
Our two best run stoppers Collins and Snacks are no longer on the team
Our two best pass rushers JPP and Vernon are no longer on the team.
Culture doesn't win games. Michael Irvin stabbed a teammate in the neck but that team won 3 super bowls in four years.
LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
Rams (2nd most rushing TD, 8th most pass TD) vs. Patriots (4th most rushing TD, 11th most pass TD)
Both teams with 1st round RB on the roster too. Good night.
You didn’t answer the question so I’ll do it for you:
2018: Rams 1.34:1, Pats 1.61:1
2017: Pats 2:1 passing td to rushing ratio, Eagles 4.2:1
2016: Falcons: 2:1, Pats 1.68:1
2015: Panthers: 1.84: Pats 2.56:1
2014: Pats 2.61:1, Seahawks 1:1
So the champions had
1.61:1
4.2:1
1.68:1
2.56:1
2.61:1
3 of the last 5 champions passed for more than a full TD more a game than they ran for. The Eagles had a grand total of 9 rushing TDS. Just spitting out rushing total yardage ignores the context behind the stats.
you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
The difference is i’m Using data rather than cliches and a fantasy-football mindset.
Top 5 rushing teams seem to still somehow make the SB every year ... it’s almost like it’s still beneficial. How’d teams get so far with Bortles/Keenum/Foles in 2017? Why’d 2 top 5 rushing teams with 1st round RBs make this SB this past season?
The only data your using is total rushing yards. That’s box score scouting.
RE: RE: Anyone with any common sense can see DG has a plan and what it is Â
Especially since he's said it over and over again.
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
He talks a good story but actions speak louder than words.
Our oline was ranked 15th against the run in 2017 .... 29th in 2018.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017
Our two best run stoppers Collins and Snacks are no longer on the team
Our two best pass rushers JPP and Vernon are no longer on the team.
Culture doesn't win games. Michael Irvin stabbed a teammate in the neck but that team won 3 super bowls in four years.
Let’s hear some solutions. We get it, you think the team sucks and want them to tank every year. Who would you draft at 6/17? Do you like any of the QB’s this year?
I love Murray. Jones I don't hate, but I certainly liked last years crop of QB's the giants had to pick from better than him.
Britt, the 2005-2011 teams had a terrific pass rush and a franchise QB. They also had the worst running game in the league in the regular season in 2011 and still made the playoffs because Eli stood on his head.
Running the ball is important, but it's a lot easier to find running backs than it is pass rushers or franchise QB's. Their plan is dead in the water without a pass rush and a QB.
If they can't get Murray I would load up on defense this year, take 2 pass rushers 1st 2 picks or a pass rusher and a corner. Then get QB in 2020.
Saquon is an awesome talent but each year the Giants suck and without a QB and a pass rush they will certainly continue to suck until they fill those holes his prime is being wasted. The way the Giants are going by the time they are good again Barkley will be wanting mega bucks and then his value significantly diminishes when he's making huge money. The Giants will have hit the lottery if his prime lasts more than 5 years. I fear a coach like Shurmur who will be fired if the Giants suck in 2019 running Barkley into the ground and shortening his shelf life even more.
I really have no idea why people expect the Giants to be even decent in 2019. People (and the GM) keep talking about culture. The Giants dont have a culture problem. They have a "one of the worst rosters talent wise in the entire league" problem. The most important positions on the field the Giants have below average talent, and that might be putting it kindly.
I was for trading Saquon because I think this team is further away from contending than all but one or two other teams in the league. I have zero interest in paying a running back huge money. I have a hard time seeing this team as a true contender until they get a franchise QB.
I want Murray or Josh Allen with the 1st pick. Then defense at 17.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
You realize a big part of beating the Patriots in both Superbowls was keeping their offense off the field with long, sustained drives right? Running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer played a huge part in winning both those games.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
You realize a big part of beating the Patriots in both Superbowls was keeping their offense off the field with long, sustained drives right? Running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer played a huge part in winning both those games.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
You’re taking one game though. Each game is going to have its own game plan and game flow based on your strengths.
In 46 they passed the ball 41 times to 19 runs. They weren’t a good rushing team and got their on the strength of their passing game.
In 42 they ran the ball in the postseason:
22 times for 69
33 for 154
14 for 28
16 for 45.
They passed the ball 48 times to 16 runs in that Super Bowl.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
The rams 1st round RB carried them throughout the season and they got their ass kicked in the SB without him. Gurley averaged 130 total yards and 1+TD per game heading into the playoffs, I think he had something to do with their general success.
Speaking of “passing league”, Goff was awful in the playoffs with 1 TD, 2 INTs, and 2 games below 250 yards passing. “Passing league”, clearly.
You do realize mentioning the 2017 Jaguars (the NFLs #1 rushing offense and elite defense) further proves my point of how stupid the passing league cliche is, don’t you?
What happened this year? Parody, and Fournette missing half the season after getting banged up week 1 may have had something to do with it too.
Fix the locker room culture and fix the trenches. Add in the other pieces when the opportunity is there. There are still stop-gaps on the team and it’s no secret that Eli is one of them.
You realize a big part of beating the Patriots in both Superbowls was keeping their offense off the field with long, sustained drives right? Running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer played a huge part in winning both those games.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
You’re taking one game though. Each game is going to have its own game plan and game flow based on your strengths.
In 46 they passed the ball 41 times to 19 runs. They weren’t a good rushing team and got their on the strength of their passing game.
In 42 they ran the ball in the postseason:
22 times for 69
33 for 154
14 for 28
16 for 45.
They passed the ball 48 times to 16 runs in that Super Bowl.
In 2007 that was their overall philosophy. Jacobs and Bradshaw were plowing dudes with a power running game and setting the tone. Punishing running. Ask Woodson. It’s more than the stats.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
The rams 1st round RB carried them throughout the season and they got their ass kicked in the SB without him. Gurley averaged 130 total yards and 1+TD per game heading into the playoffs, I think he had something to do with their general success.
Speaking of “passing league”, Goff was awful in the playoffs with 1 TD, 2 INTs, and 2 games below 250 yards passing. “Passing league”, clearly.
You do realize mentioning the 2017 Jaguars (the NFLs #1 rushing offense and elite defense) further proves my point of how stupid the passing league cliche is, don’t you?
What happened this year? Parody, and Fournette missing half the season after getting banged up week 1 may have had something to do with it too.
Keep trying.
The 2017 Jaguars were 8th in ypa, they were only the best in total rushing yards but they also had 47 more attempts than the Cowboys who were only 92 yards behind them. They in fact were not the best rushing team.
In 2007 that was their overall philosophy. Jacobs and Bradshaw were plowing dudes with a power running game and setting the tone. Punishing running. Ask Woodson. It’s more than the stats.
And in 2011 their overall philosophy wasn’t predicated on a good running game.
Irregardless of their overall philosophy it came down to their ability to pass the ball when it came to productive offensive play in the playoffs.
Their line was cracking with age in 2011 but they were sure as hell Â
trying for balance. It fell off a cliff after that and we know the rest. As the lines went, the team went. That’s the story, and that’s what we’re finally correcting.
Coughlin did and said the same thing when he got here.
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Game is still won at the LOS on both sides of the ball and that’s what we need to do to restore Giants pride, control the LOS and impose our will on the other team.
Different wording, same message. And it produced a golden era of Giants football, we won way more than we lost, and made the playoffs way more than not from 2005-2011 with that philosophy. Two championships. And oh yeah, Gettleman was here for that too.
If you're not going to have a franchise QB, you better have a dominant defense, a great offensive line, and a great running game.
They have a dreadful defense at almost every level, a mediocre line, and a very good running back.
You have very little margin for error when you don't have a franchise QB. The teams that are contenders year in and year out have franchise QB's.
Gettlemans plan won't work unless he gets a franchise QB. The previous regime left this roster in such awful shape at so many key positions that the alternative way to build a contender will take forever to accomplish, and he'll be out of a job before it happens if it ever does if he cant find a franchise QB
You have very little margin for error when you don't have a franchise QB. The teams that are contenders year in and year out have franchise QB's.
Gettlemans plan won't work unless he gets a franchise QB. The previous regime left this roster in such awful shape at so many key positions that the alternative way to build a contender will take forever to accomplish, and he'll be out of a job before it happens if it ever does if he cant find a franchise QB
This is exactly the point. The pressure for every other unit to be perfect increases the worse you are at passing the football.
It’s a very hard structure to replicate from year to year, see the Jaguars, because a chunk of being a good defense relies on turnover luck.
RE: RE: You know what’s not mentioned a lot here? Â
It will be this year or next. That in no way, shape, or form prevents them from building the team in that vision in the meantime. And the next guy will be better for it.
It will be this year or next. That in no way, shape, or form prevents them from building the team in that vision in the meantime. And the next guy will be better for it.
This is why I want to wait. They can really land some excellent talent on defense to build around Barkley (the “Dallas Model”) and pay what it takes to get their guy in a much better QB class ... best player available (defense) indirectly makes the QB transition easier
I really hope they bypass QB this year and land 2-3 elite defensive prospects. Give Lauretta a longer look, feed Saquon, reassess QB next year with a significantly more improved roster and a ton of cap space. This can be a very quick turnaround if they have as good a draft as last year. 2 strong drafts and a ton of cap room isn’t a bad place to groom the next QB
around a running back no matter who it is. That would be a horrendous plan. Building a team that way will mean by the time they are good Barkley will be commanding big money and towards the end of his prime years. You dont build a team around a position where the players prime if you hit the lottery starts his rookie year and is max 7 years. More likely 5.
Build around a QB and a pass rush. Im not for forcing a QB pick, but Gettleman cant keep punting on a QB because if he does he’ll be out of a job within a year or two because if this team sucks and they have no QB in place I find it hard to believe he will be the GM in 2020.
Do people really think this team has a chance to compete for a playoff spot next year? Even if the Giants have a great draft, I dont see any path to even be 8-8 in 2019.
Its not DG’s fault how bad this roster is, but top to bottom the only team in worse shape in my opinion are the Cardinals. Giants are more likely to be the worst team in the NFL in 2019 than they are to make the playoffs.
the Dallas model isnt a great model, and that model is also dependent on having a great offensive line. The Giants offensive line couldnt wipe Dallas offensive line from two years ago on their best day. That 2016 cowboys line not one lineman from this Giants team would start on. The only similarities between the two teams is that both have a great running game. It would take a couple more years of great drafting to get a line like that. And while I am not a big Dak guy, at this point he is a better QB than Eli.
I really dont know why anyone believes Eli at his age and the results we have seen from him last few years is capable of being a QB on a contender. Being average would be a stretch currently. And now he doesnt have Beckham. Sure, the line could be significantly better but hes also another year older. Hes not going to find the fountain of youth suddenly. Theres nothing wrong with a 38 year old QB being finished as a good player. Brees and Brady are exceptions
the lines, rely on rushing and good defense (necessarily, because you're not going to score much).
But I think we also need to acknowledge that in executing the plan, Gettleman:
-- drafted a RB high last year, despite the league realizing that RBs are pretty fungible. In addition, given that they are definately rebuilding, trading down would have made a ton more sense.
-- let his young, all pro safety walk with absolutely no compensation
-- traded one of the best offensive players in the game for minimal return, for stupid 'culture' reasons
-- goes into the season with one getting-older CB, a second year CB who hasn't played a down yet and bunch of JAGS
-- has a big "TBD" written next to EDGE on the depth chart
-- goes into the draft with a ton of picks but holes at the most important positions on the team (QB, EDGE, CB). He hasn't drafted poorly, but isn't it a bit much to ask him to fill out the positions every team wants in one draft?
We can like the plan, and question some of his moves.
the Dallas model isnt a great model, and that model is also dependent on having a great offensive line. The Giants offensive line couldnt wipe Dallas offensive line from two years ago on their best day. That 2016 cowboys line not one lineman from this Giants team would start on. The only similarities between the two teams is that both have a great running game. It would take a couple more years of great drafting to get a line like that. And while I am not a big Dak guy, at this point he is a better QB than Eli.
I really dont know why anyone believes Eli at his age and the results we have seen from him last few years is capable of being a QB on a contender. Being average would be a stretch currently. And now he doesnt have Beckham. Sure, the line could be significantly better but hes also another year older. Hes not going to find the fountain of youth suddenly. Theres nothing wrong with a 38 year old QB being finished as a good player. Brees and Brady are exceptions
Holy shit. You just explained your question in point 2 in your 1st point. Wow.
the lines, rely on rushing and good defense (necessarily, because you're not going to score much).
But I think we also need to acknowledge that in executing the plan, Gettleman:
-- drafted a RB high last year, despite the league realizing that RBs are pretty fungible. In addition, given that they are definately rebuilding, trading down would have made a ton more sense.
-- let his young, all pro safety walk with absolutely no compensation
-- traded one of the best offensive players in the game for minimal return, for stupid 'culture' reasons
-- goes into the season with one getting-older CB, a second year CB who hasn't played a down yet and bunch of JAGS
-- has a big "TBD" written next to EDGE on the depth chart
-- goes into the draft with a ton of picks but holes at the most important positions on the team (QB, EDGE, CB). He hasn't drafted poorly, but isn't it a bit much to ask him to fill out the positions every team wants in one draft?
We can like the plan, and question some of his moves.
Good post. I understand what you're saying. However, I don't like the plan mainly due to your 1st point but also the OBJ deal. With the #2 overall pick in the draft and numerous holes to fill, you don't draft an RB. You pick the QB (or even Q. Nelson or B. Chubb) or as you noted - trade down. It's likely one of the QB needy teams would have had interest in jumping in front of the Jets.
Gettleman picked a great player, likely the best player in the draft. I don't think it was the most effective use of that pick. I guess if you are a believer that the strong running game/game manager QB is the best way to win, you disagree with me. Give me the upper level QB and a decent RB any day. In both cases you need at least a good defense. However when going all in on the power football model you need a dominant defense not just a good one. The game has changed. You either adapt or remain a perennial also-ran.
The podcast guys, Lombardi and the other guys who’s name I have gladly forgotten, have actually become unlistenable to me (same with the NJ.com pod) because they’re relentless in criticizing DG and Eli. Aside the overt and unending criticism, I just don’t agree that “running backs don’t matter” or that defense isn’t important or that every team in the NFL should be built like the Chiefs. (Hey, did the Chiefs win the Super Bowl last year in The Ringerland?) I feel like a lot of these analytics guys and the media are more focused on Daftkings and their fantasy team than actual football. These Ringer guys spent most of last season tea bagging Sean McVay and Jared Goff. Again, not sure which Super Bowl they watched at The Ringer, but Goff didn’t look too good to me in any playoff game, certainly not special, and McVay was undressed for much of the NFC Championship game and all of the Super Bowl. So, I’m just not a fan of the Ringer crew.
Of course DG has a plan, and it’s been clear as day since the day he announced his plan. Will it work? I think so.
It's worked 4 times and it will work again.
The OL has been upgraded significantly since he’s taken over and it’s pretty clear he’s intent on getting Bettcher “his players” on defense that actually fit the scheme. Trading Vernon for Zietler was a great move, for so many reasons.
His 2018 draft class is looking like the best we’ve seen in years and I love the direction this team is heading.
Takes some time to undue Reese’s shitshow, but he’s on the right track.
It's worked 4 times and it will work again.
I think that's part of the issue they had with drafting a RB at #2 overall last yr in what was considered by many to be one of the best QB classes in a long time.
If it were OL + DL + RB = championship then that move would have made more sense. But as the article stated, if he really didn't believe in any of the QB's then passing on them is the smart move.
My personal biggest concern (and take this with a grain of salt) is that Gettleman really believed that "Eli had years left" and could still win a championship. If he really believed that (and made the decision at #2 b/c of it) then his QB evaluation skills are scary.
no
The OL has been upgraded significantly since he’s taken over and it’s pretty clear he’s intent on getting Bettcher “his players” on defense that actually fit the scheme. Trading Vernon for Zietler was a great move, for so many reasons.
couldn't agree more. Don't ever forget the JPP of TEs
His 2018 draft class is looking like the best we’ve seen in years and I love the direction this team is heading.
Takes some time to undue Reese’s shitshow, but he’s on the right track.
I'd add "cohesive and motivated squad" to the plan. I think that's the positive goal for the "no more locker room drama" part.
As for run-first, that's the plan. It makes perfect sense for a QB transition. But I'm not sure that's a winning formula in the NFL anymore.
Quote:
OL + DL + QB = championship
It's worked 4 times and it will work again.
I think that's part of the issue they had with drafting a RB at #2 overall last yr in what was considered by many to be one of the best QB classes in a long time.
If it were OL + DL + RB = championship then that move would have made more sense. But as the article stated, if he really didn't believe in any of the QB's then passing on them is the smart move.
My personal biggest concern (and take this with a grain of salt) is that Gettleman really believed that "Eli had years left" and could still win a championship. If he really believed that (and made the decision at #2 b/c of it) then his QB evaluation skills are scary.
Agreed with this. That said, after this draft, the sample size will be larger re: draft picks and it may make more sense. Seems likely we'll go with QB/OL/Front 7 with the first few picks of the draft this year.
a plan's success is measured by objective data, which in the NFL is your overall record. DG's plan is currently 5-11. we'll see in 3, 5 or 10 years whether that's turned around. You can only blame Reese for so long before he needs to accept responsibility.
when people question whether the Giants have a "plan", a big part of that is what they are planning to do to transition the most important position on the field and succeed Eli. perhaps we get our answer in three days.
I look forward to Peppers showing how good he is in this scheme ... he gets talked about like he’s some throw in scrub - when in reality he was a key reason for the trade happening
I loved the move, and think Peppers will thrive as a bigger / more athletic HoneyBadger for Bettcher
I don’t get it. One entity hasn’t been swapped out for a young kid and fans turn into fucking morons. One! And at what cost are we supposed to cut the qb??? For whom? Teddy fucking bridgewater?
This wasn’t a shot at the op or linked article. Just my daily rant in lieu of said linked article... I think.
a plan's success is measured by objective data, which in the NFL is your overall record. DG's plan is currently 5-11. we'll see in 3, 5 or 10 years whether that's turned around. You can only blame Reese for so long before he needs to accept responsibility.
when people question whether the Giants have a "plan", a big part of that is what they are planning to do to transition the most important position on the field and succeed Eli. perhaps we get our answer in three days.
I agree. I believe there would be less "plan" questions had he selected Darnold last year. Did he pick a great player last year in Saquon? Absolutely no question about it. For a team that had (and still has) all the needs that the Giants did, was it a great draft pick? I don't think so. In other words, I don't think it was the best usage of the #2 pick.
What are the keys to building a great team? Most would say QB, pass rusher, OL, and CB. For a team that sucked, picking an RB at #2 seemed like quite a misguided luxury. Darnold, Q. Nelson or B. Chubb would seem like better usage of the #2 pick in terms of the positions where you need premier players and the laws of supply and demand. You can find an RB you can win with in any draft even on day 2. Will you find another Saquon? No, but you don't need a "gold jacket" guy at that position.
Thank god..
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Have you not seen us get blown of the ball on both sides of the line for the last 6 seasons?
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
Or maybe like the Pats offense when they mowed down Rams with their running game in the Super Bowl. The Rams (and many others) are building teams to stop the pass, not stop the run. The Pats are going the other way and so are the Giants.
Many think Dave Gettleman was hired because he was a friend of John's and would go along with status quo. I actually believe its the opposite. John Mara hired Dave Gettleman because he knew success had followed him everywhere he went, meaning his success was not defined by his Giants tenure. While he fully trusted Gettleman, he knew Dave's #1 priority is building a winning football team. So when Dave Gettleman has to tell John Mara something he doesn't want to hear, i imagine he does so albeit reluctantly.
The Giants have a plan, but its not rosy. The Giants want the exact kind of locker room the Patriots have had for years. No leaks, no anonymous sources talking to the press, absolutely no bullshit anymore. Come in to work and grind. The Giants lost control of the work environment they wanted, and that's largely on them for not setting Odell straight from the start. But it reached a point where being partially culpable had to take a back burner to making a decision on what kind of culture and environment they wanted here.
And that is not to say Odell can't go to a team with a strong foundation in place and be kept in line when he starts to stray. He is not a bad person either. But the foundation was not in place here. It had rotted out. And when expectations are not clear from the start and you suddenly change the rules, it is near impossible for the process to go smoothly.
They want a non-flashy, highly technical team that emphasizes doing the basic things right ad nauseum. They want to pound teams into the ground, and they want a blue collar defense who makes you tap out by the third quarter.
Will they accomplish their goals? Well, i believe the culture and locker room they have envisioned is now in place, but they obviously need more talent. Shurmur needs to keep improving as a head coach. But for the first time in a long time, the Giants at least have a vision of what they want to be.
I kind of fall in with you. I still am skeptical of how they've proceeded forward with Eli (to me its either poor asset allocation or a complete absence of it), but Gettleman has otherwise had a good offseason so far. It's a relief, because I thought his 2018 was terrible. We'll see how the draft goes...picking a QB in the first round would be a mistake - if we're committing to Eli then let's surround him with players that will play.
If the approach is to build strong lines an a strong running game, I'm curious as to whether Gettleman may be onto something by zigging while the league is zagging.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
Reese?
You can argue about timing and proper compensation, but you can see how he's going about business.
Quote:
Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
Or maybe like the Pats offense when they mowed down Rams with their running game in the Super Bowl. The Rams (and many others) are building teams to stop the pass, not stop the run. The Pats are going the other way and so are the Giants.
That’s not true at all. The Patriots passed the ball as much as the Rams did. They ran the ball more because they had a lead. Two of the patriots four highest paid players are defensive backs.
They’ve traded for Brandin Cooks and Josh’s Gordon for what reason?
And please stop comparing teams to how the Patriots run things. Nobody can emulate it.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
You’d like them to fall in lone with what the league is doing, and how teams are stocking up on defense to defend the quick striking offense. Not sure why. Trends are broken all the time, and I’d rather be ahead of the curve than try to copy it when it may soon be out dated.
Controlling the clock and forcing your opponent into 3rd and long is a good thing no matter what era of football you are in. It also makes it much easier for a new QB to come in an excel.
It’s foolish to think you’ve got the league figured out and that it won’t change.
I don’t get it. One entity hasn’t been swapped out for a young kid and fans turn into fucking morons. One! And at what cost are we supposed to cut the qb??? For whom? Teddy fucking bridgewater?
This wasn’t a shot at the op or linked article. Just my daily rant in lieu of said linked article... I think.
Enough with the most draft picks nonsense. 8 of the 12 picks are on day 3. Half of our picks are in rounds 5, 6, and 7. I get that this draft is deep, but odds are that we'll see one - maybe two - legitimate players emerge from those day 3 picks.
Beyond that, there's also a point where you can't go around claiming that flipping the dollars in your pocket into brand new lottery tickets is some sort of sound investment strategy. There's an element of addition by subtraction that Gettleman is banking on here, and I'm fine giving him a chance to be right on that, but enough already with the "most draft picks" bullshit as though every pick is a given to succeed or that those late picks are worth as much as earlier picks.
If the approach is to build strong lines an a strong running game, I'm curious as to whether Gettleman may be onto something by zigging while the league is zagging.
The problem is two fold:
1) the running game has to be extraordinary good to cancel out the added attention and still be effective enough to win games and keep pace with other offenses.
2) Teams are becoming so good at passing the football that selling out on stoping the run and not putting resources into the secondary is a dangerous game in 2019. Our secondary won’t stand a chance without an elite pass rush.
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Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
You’d like them to fall in lone with what the league is doing, and how teams are stocking up on defense to defend the quick striking offense. Not sure why. Trends are broken all the time, and I’d rather be ahead of the curve than try to copy it when it may soon be out dated.
Controlling the clock and forcing your opponent into 3rd and long is a good thing no matter what era of football you are in. It also makes it much easier for a new QB to come in an excel.
It’s foolish to think you’ve got the league figured out and that it won’t change.
And what happens if you fall behind 14-0? Sure breaking the trends is one way to stay ahead of the curve but good defenses have a tendency to not translate well from year to year, minus a handful of exceptions.
If you can’t put out a top 10 defense that can stop today’s passing offenses you’re playing a dangerous game.
Look at his track record. He doesn’t put money or high draft picks into the secondary.
Would you call this secondary a top 20 secondary as currently constructed?
It’s not good enough to hang with today’s offenses without an elite pass rush.
The point remains, you need good secondary play and elite pass rushing to play a ball control offense in 2019. It’s the only way to win games 25-20 instead of 40-35. There’s a reason the league is trending towards a passing league. They’ve identified the weaknesses.
Sure the Giants can try to buck the trend, but they’ll need to be insanely efficient and become top 10 in those weaknesses and sustain that year to year.
If your secondary is at the bottom of the league or you get ravaged by injuries you can still win games if you’re efficient passing and can put up points. If you’re built to control the ball, that becomes a lot harder.
The draft hasn’t happened yet, how about waiting until it does?
Time will tell and I think the next qb choice will have a lot to say in where the Giants view themselves as a franchise.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
I’ve posted on this nonsense repeatedly, so I’ll just leave a link and you can see the data yourself. So tired of this “passing league” bullshit
The teams that run the ball and stop the run are successful.
The Patriots were top 10 in rushing offense and rushing defense.
The Eagles were top 5 in rushing offense and rushing defense.
It still matters. It still wins.
Numbers - ( New Window )
Often times a leader reaches greatness by one critical decision. I am fully confident DG will put tougher a tough, passionate team that fights and will be competitive.
His tenure will be defined as good or great by if they win a championship or not. Ultimately it will come down to having picked the right coach and either being correct in sticking with Eli or finding his successor ASAP.
Brady also had more INT than TD this postseason
Philly had the #3 rushing offense and #1 run defense in their SB year. Blake F’n Bortles was 1 quarter away from playing against Nick Foles in this super bowl ... which also included Case Keenum in the conference championship on the back of a top 10 run offense/defense.
So sick of this “pass first” nonsense. It’s still football.
Time will tell and I think the next qb choice will have a lot to say in where the Giants view themselves as a franchise.
I still don’t see why it’s all or nothing. It sounds to me like Gettleman wants to focus on the run and ToP, not abandon the pass. People need to take a step back and think logically.
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Just not sure its a plan that is capable of winning in today's league. If your offense is predicated on the run, then you unquestionably need a top 5 defense both in yards and points. Think teams like the Bucs, Ravens, Jaguars of a couple of years ago.
Time will tell and I think the next qb choice will have a lot to say in where the Giants view themselves as a franchise.
I still don’t see why it’s all or nothing. It sounds to me like Gettleman wants to focus on the run and ToP, not abandon the pass. People need to take a step back and think logically.
Strong game makes Eli’s playaction even more effective ... everybody wins
Feed Saquon, get Shepard/Tate constant 1:1 matchups and let a yac-machine like Tate burn secondaries
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
DG’s mantra is more rooted in facts and results than this fantasy football, PFF garbage take.
Who has won a SB on the back of some high flying passing offense the last 20 years? The Rams? Anyone else?
Brady also had more INT than TD this postseason
Philly had the #3 rushing offense and #1 run defense in their SB year. Blake F’n Bortles was 1 quarter away from playing against Nick Foles in this super bowl ... which also included Case Keenum in the conference championship on the back of a top 10 run offense/defense.
So sick of this “pass first” nonsense. It’s still football.
You repeatedly post about the Jags and Blake Bortles. The year they went to the AFC Championship Game that defense was dominant and scored a freakish amount of defensive TDs if I recall. Last year, when the defense was still one of the best in the league (5th overall) but lacking those defensive TDs, they could no longer compete because Blake F'n Bortles was their QB and they couldn't score. One of the first things they did in the offseason was replace him. Without a good QB and passing game, all other facets of the team must be dominant in order to contend.
DG’s mantra is more rooted in facts and results than this fantasy football, PFF garbage take.
Who has won a SB on the back of some high flying passing offense the last 20 years? The Rams? Anyone else?
Off the top of my head - Packers, Saints, Colts. I'm sure there have been others - if not "high flying" then at least in the Top 10 in passing offense.
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Of “getting away from basketball on grass” or “hog mollies” or “ground and pound” despite the fact that the winning teams pass more and pass more efficiently is troubling.
It’s not 1995 anymore. “Basketball on grass” or quick striking offenses with speed all over the place is how you win in today’s NFL.
Would you rather have the 2018 Chiefs offense or the 2017 Jaguars offense?
DG’s mantra is more rooted in facts and results than this fantasy football, PFF garbage take.
Who has won a SB on the back of some high flying passing offense the last 20 years? The Rams? Anyone else?
The 2011 Giants were top 5 in YPA.
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In comment 14398137 lax counsel said:
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Just not sure its a plan that is capable of winning in today's league. If your offense is predicated on the run, then you unquestionably need a top 5 defense both in yards and points. Think teams like the Bucs, Ravens, Jaguars of a couple of years ago.
Time will tell and I think the next qb choice will have a lot to say in where the Giants view themselves as a franchise.
I still don’t see why it’s all or nothing. It sounds to me like Gettleman wants to focus on the run and ToP, not abandon the pass. People need to take a step back and think logically.
Strong game makes Eli’s playaction even more effective ... everybody wins
Feed Saquon, get Shepard/Tate constant 1:1 matchups and let a yac-machine like Tate burn secondaries
This also isn’t true, a strong running game doesn’t lead to more effective play action.
Parody is fun, isn’t it?
Isn’t it weird how 7 playoff teams ranked top 10 in rushing offense this year? Or that the SB featured 2 top 5 rushing teams (again)?
Must be a coincidence.
It's not hard to see, unless you don't want to or flat out refuse to.
It's not hard to see, unless you don't want to or flat out refuse to.
His plan might work well if it were 1985.
Although if they don't find a franchise QB, it won't matter what the rest of his plan is because he'll be fired long before the Giants are good again
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And every move he's made has been in accordance with that plan.
It's not hard to see, unless you don't want to or flat out refuse to.
His plan might work well if it were 1985.
Although if they don't find a franchise QB, it won't matter what the rest of his plan is because he'll be fired long before the Giants are good again
Worked pretty well for the last guys that believed that, from about 2005-2011.
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In comment 14398033 ajr2456 said:
DG’s mantra is more rooted in facts and results than this fantasy football, PFF garbage take.
Who has won a SB on the back of some high flying passing offense the last 20 years? The Rams? Anyone else?
Off the top of my head - Packers, Saints, Colts. I'm sure there have been others - if not "high flying" then at least in the Top 10 in passing offense.
The Colts defense carried them through the playoffs in 06. I don’t really remember the Packers and saints runs.
It’s ironic that the data supports DG’s take yet he gets shit on here and in the media for being an antiquated moron.
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
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In comment 14398227 Britt in VA said:
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And every move he's made has been in accordance with that plan.
It's not hard to see, unless you don't want to or flat out refuse to.
His plan might work well if it were 1985.
Although if they don't find a franchise QB, it won't matter what the rest of his plan is because he'll be fired long before the Giants are good again
Worked pretty well for the last guys that believed that, from about 2005-2011.
The 2011 team wasn’t good at running the football and was a top 5 passing team.
The 2007 team it worked because of an elite pass rush, a secondary that stepped it up in the post season, and timely QB play.
I’m sorry, is this not a discussion board?
NFL GMs are never wrong? There’s a good number of people who think the Giants are headed in the wrong direction, but sure.
What goal posts did I move?
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OL + DL + QB = championship
It's worked 4 times and it will work again.
I think that's part of the issue they had with drafting a RB at #2 overall last yr in what was considered by many to be one of the best QB classes in a long time.
If it were OL + DL + RB = championship then that move would have made more sense. But as the article stated, if he really didn't believe in any of the QB's then passing on them is the smart move.
My personal biggest concern (and take this with a grain of salt) is that Gettleman really believed that "Eli had years left" and could still win a championship. If he really believed that (and made the decision at #2 b/c of it) then his QB evaluation skills are scary.
Let's cut to the chase.
This is just thread #3,167 from Josh lamenting not drafting a QB.
Time after fucking time. The same thing.
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.
What goal posts did I move?
The one where teams only pass to score then get good rushing stats only with the lead.
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In comment 14398399 UConn4523 said:
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.
What goal posts did I move?
The one where teams only pass to score then get good rushing stats only with the lead.
That’s not what I said regarding rushing stats. Rushing stats are inflated because of the end of game situations. Game flow matters.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
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LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
Rams (2nd most rushing TD, 8th most pass TD) vs. Patriots (4th most rushing TD, 11th most pass TD)
Both teams with 1st round RB on the roster too. Good night.
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In comment 14398402 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14398399 UConn4523 said:
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.
What goal posts did I move?
The one where teams only pass to score then get good rushing stats only with the lead.
That’s not what I said regarding rushing stats. Rushing stats are inflated because of the end of game situations. Game flow matters.
I know exactly what you said. And it still is wrong.
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you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
The difference is i’m Using data rather than cliches and a fantasy-football mindset.
Top 5 rushing teams seem to still somehow make the SB every year ... it’s almost like it’s still beneficial. How’d teams get so far with Bortles/Keenum/Foles in 2017? Why’d 2 top 5 rushing teams with 1st round RBs make this SB this past season?
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
He talks a good story but actions speak louder than words.
Our oline was ranked 15th against the run in 2017 .... 29th in 2018.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017
Our two best run stoppers Collins and Snacks are no longer on the team
Our two best pass rushers JPP and Vernon are no longer on the team.
Culture doesn't win games. Michael Irvin stabbed a teammate in the neck but that team won 3 super bowls in four years.
https://www.theversed.com/10506/scissorgate-remembering-michael-irvin-nearly-stabbed-teammate-death/#.DLNbM4yDOc
It's great that you're so optimistic but I'll have to see results before I believe DG is anything other that a clown.
Sony Michel
2/3 games over 110 rushing yards; 6 rushing TDs
Passing league, clearly.
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In comment 14398339 GothamGiants said:
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LIII: 3rd v 5th best rushing teams
LII: 3rd vs 10th best rushing teams (PHI #1 run defense)
LI: 5th vs 7th best rushing teams (NE #3 run defense)
L: 2nd vs 17th best rushing teams (Denver, top 3 rushing defense)
XLIX: 1st vs 18th rushing teams (both top 10 rushing defense)
The last 5 SB’s have featured a top 5 rushing team in each matchup. It would appear running the ball, and stopping the run, just may still be fairly important - no matter how many “passing league” cliches get thrown around.
Once again you continue to ignore the context. Good teams run more at the end of the game because they have the lead. You pass to get the lead.
Post these teams passing to rushing TD ratio and get back to me.
Rams (2nd most rushing TD, 8th most pass TD) vs. Patriots (4th most rushing TD, 11th most pass TD)
Both teams with 1st round RB on the roster too. Good night.
You didn’t answer the question so I’ll do it for you:
2018: Rams 1.34:1, Pats 1.61:1
2017: Pats 2:1 passing td to rushing ratio, Eagles 4.2:1
2016: Falcons: 2:1, Pats 1.68:1
2015: Panthers: 1.84: Pats 2.56:1
2014: Pats 2.61:1, Seahawks 1:1
So the champions had
1.61:1
4.2:1
1.68:1
2.56:1
2.61:1
3 of the last 5 champions passed for more than a full TD more a game than they ran for. The Eagles had a grand total of 9 rushing TDS. Just spitting out rushing total yardage ignores the context behind the stats.
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In comment 14398425 Dave on the UWS said:
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you’re preaching like you know better. I’m not a fan. You’re also ignoring FACTS that have been posted on this thread they doesn’t jive with your diatribe. Here’s some more for you, look at the Giants first two SB wins. Yes it was a different era, but they had excellent defenses with mediocre secondaries. It’s still a big man’s game and making the QB uncomfortable is STILL the best way to win.
I’m stating my opinion just like Gotham is, you don’t like it because you disagree. That’s fine.
Who cares about the first two Super Bowl wins? Those were 30+ years ago. Game plans were different. Players were built differently. Teams were constructed completely different. The linebacker position is night and day from what it was then.
It’s a different game.
The difference is i’m Using data rather than cliches and a fantasy-football mindset.
Top 5 rushing teams seem to still somehow make the SB every year ... it’s almost like it’s still beneficial. How’d teams get so far with Bortles/Keenum/Foles in 2017? Why’d 2 top 5 rushing teams with 1st round RBs make this SB this past season?
The only data your using is total rushing yards. That’s box score scouting.
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Especially since he's said it over and over again.
Run the ball
Stop the Run
Get to the QB
Change the culture in the locker room
Did all these meat head reporters miss all those pressers? There is no secret to his approach. Every move he has made has revolved around these principles.
He talks a good story but actions speak louder than words.
Our oline was ranked 15th against the run in 2017 .... 29th in 2018.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2017
Our two best run stoppers Collins and Snacks are no longer on the team
Our two best pass rushers JPP and Vernon are no longer on the team.
Culture doesn't win games. Michael Irvin stabbed a teammate in the neck but that team won 3 super bowls in four years.
https://www.theversed.com/10506/scissorgate-remembering-michael-irvin-nearly-stabbed-teammate-death/#.DLNbM4yDOc
It's great that you're so optimistic but I'll have to see results before I believe DG is anything other that a clown.
Culture absolutely matters. Talk about using old data siting Michael Irvin. How about in today’s nfl where seasons are ruined with 1 bad egg?
DG cleaned house to get rid of bad contracts and improve culture. How anyone can say that was t the right thing to do is beyond me.
I love Murray. Jones I don't hate, but I certainly liked last years crop of QB's the giants had to pick from better than him.
Britt, the 2005-2011 teams had a terrific pass rush and a franchise QB. They also had the worst running game in the league in the regular season in 2011 and still made the playoffs because Eli stood on his head.
Running the ball is important, but it's a lot easier to find running backs than it is pass rushers or franchise QB's. Their plan is dead in the water without a pass rush and a QB.
If they can't get Murray I would load up on defense this year, take 2 pass rushers 1st 2 picks or a pass rusher and a corner. Then get QB in 2020.
Saquon is an awesome talent but each year the Giants suck and without a QB and a pass rush they will certainly continue to suck until they fill those holes his prime is being wasted. The way the Giants are going by the time they are good again Barkley will be wanting mega bucks and then his value significantly diminishes when he's making huge money. The Giants will have hit the lottery if his prime lasts more than 5 years. I fear a coach like Shurmur who will be fired if the Giants suck in 2019 running Barkley into the ground and shortening his shelf life even more.
I really have no idea why people expect the Giants to be even decent in 2019. People (and the GM) keep talking about culture. The Giants dont have a culture problem. They have a "one of the worst rosters talent wise in the entire league" problem. The most important positions on the field the Giants have below average talent, and that might be putting it kindly.
I was for trading Saquon because I think this team is further away from contending than all but one or two other teams in the league. I have zero interest in paying a running back huge money. I have a hard time seeing this team as a true contender until they get a franchise QB.
I want Murray or Josh Allen with the 1st pick. Then defense at 17.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
A well run team can afford to bring in cancers like Moss and Bennett and head cases like Gordon and Harrison.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
You’re taking one game though. Each game is going to have its own game plan and game flow based on your strengths.
In 46 they passed the ball 41 times to 19 runs. They weren’t a good rushing team and got their on the strength of their passing game.
In 42 they ran the ball in the postseason:
22 times for 69
33 for 154
14 for 28
16 for 45.
They passed the ball 48 times to 16 runs in that Super Bowl.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
The rams 1st round RB carried them throughout the season and they got their ass kicked in the SB without him. Gurley averaged 130 total yards and 1+TD per game heading into the playoffs, I think he had something to do with their general success.
Speaking of “passing league”, Goff was awful in the playoffs with 1 TD, 2 INTs, and 2 games below 250 yards passing. “Passing league”, clearly.
You do realize mentioning the 2017 Jaguars (the NFLs #1 rushing offense and elite defense) further proves my point of how stupid the passing league cliche is, don’t you?
What happened this year? Parody, and Fournette missing half the season after getting banged up week 1 may have had something to do with it too.
Keep trying.
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You realize a big part of beating the Patriots in both Superbowls was keeping their offense off the field with long, sustained drives right? Running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer played a huge part in winning both those games.
In 42, our opening drive was a record long drive (incidentally breaking the ‘90 Giants record, same gameplay against the Bills but I digress). The Patriots offense didn’t touch the ball until near the 2nd quarter!
During 46, we owned the TOP by nearly 20 minute!
You’re taking one game though. Each game is going to have its own game plan and game flow based on your strengths.
In 46 they passed the ball 41 times to 19 runs. They weren’t a good rushing team and got their on the strength of their passing game.
In 42 they ran the ball in the postseason:
22 times for 69
33 for 154
14 for 28
16 for 45.
They passed the ball 48 times to 16 runs in that Super Bowl.
In 2007 that was their overall philosophy. Jacobs and Bradshaw were plowing dudes with a power running game and setting the tone. Punishing running. Ask Woodson. It’s more than the stats.
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Barely played in the playoffs.
What happened to the Jaguars this year? Their defense wasn’t as good, they were 28th in rushing ypg, and the QB couldn’t get it done.
The Jaguars defensive TO % dropped from 15.6% to 8%. The 2017 was propped up by a defense who benefited greatly from turnover luck, not the running game.
The rams 1st round RB carried them throughout the season and they got their ass kicked in the SB without him. Gurley averaged 130 total yards and 1+TD per game heading into the playoffs, I think he had something to do with their general success.
Speaking of “passing league”, Goff was awful in the playoffs with 1 TD, 2 INTs, and 2 games below 250 yards passing. “Passing league”, clearly.
You do realize mentioning the 2017 Jaguars (the NFLs #1 rushing offense and elite defense) further proves my point of how stupid the passing league cliche is, don’t you?
What happened this year? Parody, and Fournette missing half the season after getting banged up week 1 may have had something to do with it too.
Keep trying.
The 2017 Jaguars were 8th in ypa, they were only the best in total rushing yards but they also had 47 more attempts than the Cowboys who were only 92 yards behind them. They in fact were not the best rushing team.
In 2007 that was their overall philosophy. Jacobs and Bradshaw were plowing dudes with a power running game and setting the tone. Punishing running. Ask Woodson. It’s more than the stats.
And in 2011 their overall philosophy wasn’t predicated on a good running game.
Irregardless of their overall philosophy it came down to their ability to pass the ball when it came to productive offensive play in the playoffs.
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Game is still won at the LOS on both sides of the ball and that’s what we need to do to restore Giants pride, control the LOS and impose our will on the other team.
Different wording, same message. And it produced a golden era of Giants football, we won way more than we lost, and made the playoffs way more than not from 2005-2011 with that philosophy. Two championships. And oh yeah, Gettleman was here for that too.
If you're not going to have a franchise QB, you better have a dominant defense, a great offensive line, and a great running game.
They have a dreadful defense at almost every level, a mediocre line, and a very good running back.
You have very little margin for error when you don't have a franchise QB. The teams that are contenders year in and year out have franchise QB's.
Gettlemans plan won't work unless he gets a franchise QB. The previous regime left this roster in such awful shape at so many key positions that the alternative way to build a contender will take forever to accomplish, and he'll be out of a job before it happens if it ever does if he cant find a franchise QB
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Those teams might have rivaled the 2019 Yankees in terms of injuries though.
Gettlemans plan won't work unless he gets a franchise QB. The previous regime left this roster in such awful shape at so many key positions that the alternative way to build a contender will take forever to accomplish, and he'll be out of a job before it happens if it ever does if he cant find a franchise QB
This is exactly the point. The pressure for every other unit to be perfect increases the worse you are at passing the football.
It’s a very hard structure to replicate from year to year, see the Jaguars, because a chunk of being a good defense relies on turnover luck.
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Coughlin did and said the same thing when he got here.
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Those teams might have rivaled the 2019 Yankees in terms of injuries though.
And their “next man up” CULTURE still allowed them to be competitive and win championships despite that.
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In comment 14398546 Britt in VA said:
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Coughlin did and said the same thing when he got here.
Injuries a cancer (culture, and country club mentality Fassel was running).
Those teams might have rivaled the 2019 Yankees in terms of injuries though.
And their “next man up” CULTURE still allowed them to be competitive and win championships despite that.
Not disagreeing.
This is why I want to wait. They can really land some excellent talent on defense to build around Barkley (the “Dallas Model”) and pay what it takes to get their guy in a much better QB class ... best player available (defense) indirectly makes the QB transition easier
I really hope they bypass QB this year and land 2-3 elite defensive prospects. Give Lauretta a longer look, feed Saquon, reassess QB next year with a significantly more improved roster and a ton of cap space. This can be a very quick turnaround if they have as good a draft as last year. 2 strong drafts and a ton of cap room isn’t a bad place to groom the next QB
Build around a QB and a pass rush. Im not for forcing a QB pick, but Gettleman cant keep punting on a QB because if he does he’ll be out of a job within a year or two because if this team sucks and they have no QB in place I find it hard to believe he will be the GM in 2020.
Do people really think this team has a chance to compete for a playoff spot next year? Even if the Giants have a great draft, I dont see any path to even be 8-8 in 2019.
Its not DG’s fault how bad this roster is, but top to bottom the only team in worse shape in my opinion are the Cardinals. Giants are more likely to be the worst team in the NFL in 2019 than they are to make the playoffs.
I would be thrilled to get Murray or Josh Allen.
I really dont know why anyone believes Eli at his age and the results we have seen from him last few years is capable of being a QB on a contender. Being average would be a stretch currently. And now he doesnt have Beckham. Sure, the line could be significantly better but hes also another year older. Hes not going to find the fountain of youth suddenly. Theres nothing wrong with a 38 year old QB being finished as a good player. Brees and Brady are exceptions
But I think we also need to acknowledge that in executing the plan, Gettleman:
-- drafted a RB high last year, despite the league realizing that RBs are pretty fungible. In addition, given that they are definately rebuilding, trading down would have made a ton more sense.
-- let his young, all pro safety walk with absolutely no compensation
-- traded one of the best offensive players in the game for minimal return, for stupid 'culture' reasons
-- goes into the season with one getting-older CB, a second year CB who hasn't played a down yet and bunch of JAGS
-- has a big "TBD" written next to EDGE on the depth chart
-- goes into the draft with a ton of picks but holes at the most important positions on the team (QB, EDGE, CB). He hasn't drafted poorly, but isn't it a bit much to ask him to fill out the positions every team wants in one draft?
We can like the plan, and question some of his moves.
I really dont know why anyone believes Eli at his age and the results we have seen from him last few years is capable of being a QB on a contender. Being average would be a stretch currently. And now he doesnt have Beckham. Sure, the line could be significantly better but hes also another year older. Hes not going to find the fountain of youth suddenly. Theres nothing wrong with a 38 year old QB being finished as a good player. Brees and Brady are exceptions
Holy shit. You just explained your question in point 2 in your 1st point. Wow.
But I think we also need to acknowledge that in executing the plan, Gettleman:
-- drafted a RB high last year, despite the league realizing that RBs are pretty fungible. In addition, given that they are definately rebuilding, trading down would have made a ton more sense.
-- let his young, all pro safety walk with absolutely no compensation
-- traded one of the best offensive players in the game for minimal return, for stupid 'culture' reasons
-- goes into the season with one getting-older CB, a second year CB who hasn't played a down yet and bunch of JAGS
-- has a big "TBD" written next to EDGE on the depth chart
-- goes into the draft with a ton of picks but holes at the most important positions on the team (QB, EDGE, CB). He hasn't drafted poorly, but isn't it a bit much to ask him to fill out the positions every team wants in one draft?
We can like the plan, and question some of his moves.
Good post. I understand what you're saying. However, I don't like the plan mainly due to your 1st point but also the OBJ deal. With the #2 overall pick in the draft and numerous holes to fill, you don't draft an RB. You pick the QB (or even Q. Nelson or B. Chubb) or as you noted - trade down. It's likely one of the QB needy teams would have had interest in jumping in front of the Jets.
Gettleman picked a great player, likely the best player in the draft. I don't think it was the most effective use of that pick. I guess if you are a believer that the strong running game/game manager QB is the best way to win, you disagree with me. Give me the upper level QB and a decent RB any day. In both cases you need at least a good defense. However when going all in on the power football model you need a dominant defense not just a good one. The game has changed. You either adapt or remain a perennial also-ran.
Of course DG has a plan, and it’s been clear as day since the day he announced his plan. Will it work? I think so.